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Crux
28th September 2011, 03:57
Vietnamese Trotskyism


Publishing information: Robert J. Alexander, International Trotskyism 1929-1985: A Documented Analysis of the Movement. Copyright 1991, Duke University Press (http://www.duke.edu/web/dupress). Posted with permission. All rights reserved. This material may be saved or photocopied for personal use but may not be otherwise reproduced, stored or transmitted by any medium without explicit permission. Any alteration to or republication of this material is expressly forbidden. Please direct permissions inquiries to: Permissions Officer, Box 90660, Durham, NC 27708, USA; or fax 919.688.3524.
Transcribed: Johannes Schneider ([email protected]) for the ETOL February, 2001
During much of the 1930s one of the major centers of strength of International Trotskyism was what is today known as Vietnam. That region was also the scene of what was probably unique in the world at that time, a united front between the Trotskyists and the Stalinists — a united front which did not prevent the Stalinists a decade later from murdering virtually all of those Trotskyist leaders with whom they had been allied in the earlier period.
Before World War II present-day Vietnam consisted of three separate States. In the north was Tonkin which together with the empire of Annam in the center constituted a single French protectorate. In the south was Cochin China, an out-and-out French colony centering on the city of Saigon. The strength of the Vietnamese Trotskyists was concentrated in that period principally in Cochin China.

Stalinism and Trotskyism

Origins of Vietnamese Stalinism

The founder of the Vietnamese Communist Party was a man who was then known as Nguyen Ai Quoc, but became famous later as Ho Chi Minh. He was in France at the end of the First World War and was a member of the French Socialist Party. He is said to have attended the congress in Tours in 1920 at which the Socialist Party was converted into the French Communist Party, to which he also belonged. In June 1923 he was sent by the French Communists to Moscow to attend the University of the Toilers of the East and to serve as French representative in the new Peasants International. He was chosen as the Asian member of the directing body of that International, a subsidiary of the Comintern.


Nguyen Ai Quoc was also a delegate to the Fifth Congress of the Communist International in mid-1924. Early in the following year he was designated by the Comintern to serve on the staff of Michael Borodin in Canton, with the assignment to work to establish an Indochinese Communist Party [1] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f1n). The immediate result of his efforts was the setting up in June 1925 at Canton of the Viet Nam Revolutionary Youth League [2] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f2n). It was principally out of this group that the Vietnamese Communist Party, or Indochinese Communist Party (PCI), as it soon came to be called, was formed. By 1930 there were three rival Communist groups, which Nguyen Ai Quoc was finally able to merge into a single organization in February of that year [3] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f3n).


The new party had almost immediate success, particularly among the peasants. By mid-1930 peasant groups under Communist leadership were involved in a virtual insurrection, and in at least two localities established “soviets.” However, this movement was violently suppressed by French military forces and as a consequence, as I. Milton Sacks wrote, “Virtually the entire apparatus of the Indochina Communist Party was smashed." [4] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f4n)

Origins of Vietnamese Trotskyism

The Vietnamese Trotskyist movement did not arise from a split in the Communist Party, although undoubtedly the collapse of the Stalinists in 1930-31 helped the recruiting effort of the Trotskyists. The beginnings of Vietnamese Trotskyism were to be found in the National Party of Independence of Vietnam, also called the Annamite Party of Independence, which was founded in France among Vietnamese students there and was first led by Nguyen The Truyen, who returned to Indochina in December 1927. With his departure the party was reorganized, its principal leaders being Ta Thu Thau and Huynh Van Phuongi [5] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f5n). Ta Thu Thau had founded in Saigon an illegal nationalist revolutionary group known as Jeune Annam before he had left to study in France [6] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f6n).


The young people were very unhappy with the current position of the Comintern with regard to colonial questions. Daniel Hemery has noted that Ta Thu Thau and his comrades reproached it for its empiricism, the incoherence of its Chinese policy, but above all its not taking into account the interests of the colonial revolutionary movements. The International, they thought was proving incapable ... “of aiding the Vietnam revolutionaries and going beyond Sunyatsenism.”


Toward the end of 1929 Ta Thu Thau Huynh Van Phuong, Phan Van Chang, and others joined the French Left Opposition, then led principally by Alfred Rosmer. On May 22, 1930, they organized a demonstration in front of the Elysee Palace, as a result of which nineteen Vietnamese students were deported back to Saigon on May 23. These included Ta Thu Thau, Huynh Van Phuong, and Phan Van Chang [7] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f7n).
When they returned home the students found that there already existed several Communist opposition groups in the Saigon area. One was the Ligue Communiste (Lien Minh Cong San Doan), led by Dao Van Long (also known as Dao Hung Long), a painter and one time member of the Association of Revolutionary Vietnamese Youth. It had a membership of about fifty and circulated a mimeographed periodical C1arté Rouge (Vung Hong) in villages near Saigon. In January 1931 this group entered into contact with the Trotskyists recently returned from France, one of whom, Ho Huu Tuong, had brought back with him the theses of the Left Opposition. In May 1931 the group was reorganized and began to publish an illegal periodical, Le Communiste (Cong San) .


In August the Ligue Communiste merged with the group of returnees from France to found the Opposition de Gauche Indochinoise (Dong Duong Doi Lap Ta Pahi), also known as the October Group from its periodical, October (Thang Muoi). In 1932 it was reinforced by dissidents from the Saigon Stalinist organization. However, in October 1932 the group was decimated by the general roundup of Communists by the colonial authorities.
The Trotskyists were soon divided into three groups, “of which it is not easy to understand the differences.” These were the Opposition de Gauche Indochinoise, led by Dao Hung Long and Ho Huu Tuong; Coimmunisme Indochinois (Dong Duong Cong San), led by Ta Thu Thau, organized in 1931; and a study circle, Editions de l’Opposition de Gauche (Ta Doi Lap Tung Thus), organized early in 1932 by Huynh Van Phuong and Phan Van Chang. Ta Thu Thaus group had a bimonthly journal Le Proktaire (Vo San), and published a pamphlet, LOrganisation d’une Cellule d’Entreprise. Phan Van Chang’s group, with its headquarters in the Orly garage in Saigon, which was owned by Huynh Van Phuong, translated the Communist Manifesto, Socialism Utopian and Scientific, and fifteen other classical Marxist works [8] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f8n).


I. Milton Sacks has noted that “the principal issues dividing these groups were tactical divergencies arising from their collaboration with the Stalinists. ... They were all agreed, however, in accepting the line that Leon Trotsky had developed in his condemnation of the Communist International under the leadership of Stalin.” [9] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f9n)
The three Trotskyist groups held a joint conference in April 1932, although Ta Thu Thau had at first thought it better to work within the Indochinese Communist Party. In August 1932 the Trotskyists were rounded up along with the Stalinists, and in May 1933 they were tried, and twelve were condemned to varying periods in jail. However, Ta Thu Thau was freed on January 21, 1933, for lack of evidence. It was three years before a formal Trotskyist group was again established [10] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f10n).
Efforts to unite the Trotskyists were only partially successful. I. Milton Sacks has noted that “the split in their ranks that developed in 1932 was to be a permanent feature of Vietnamese Trotskyism.” He added that “one group, led by Ta Thu Thau, threw its full efforts behind the new La Lutte organization and was called the Struggle Group for this reason. The other group, known popularly as October Group, named after its illegal magazine (published 1931-36), was under the leadership of Ho Huu Tuong. The October Group supported La Lutte but criticized Ta Thu Thau and his followers for collaborating too closely with the Indochina Communist Party.”[11] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f11n)

(http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f11n)
The need for a legal organization was generally recognized by both the Trotskyists and the Stalinists. Both groups were faced with the problem of getting enough intellectuals with French cultural training to operate on a legal basis, and with maintaining contact of these intellectuals with the masses of the workers and peasants. In the face of these problems the Stalinists and Trotskyists had complementary advantages. The Trotskyists had an outstanding group of young intellectuals, whereas the Communists already had a substantial illegal organization with contacts among the masses [12] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f12n).

Trotskyist and Stalinist Ideological Divergences

It was some time before the Stalinists and the group of Trotskyists decided to form a united front. They were divided on several important issues. Among these were different views on the development of the Soviet Union; the Stalinists’ too extensive past dependence on the peasants; and the Trotskyists’ charge that the PCI was too conspiratorial and was looking toward coups and insurrections. For their part, the Stalinists tended to see the Trotskyists as nationalists who had just recently become Marxists [13] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f13n).
Daniel Hémery has noted that “in 1930 the Vietnamese Trotskyists applied to Indochina the notion of ‘retarded capitalist development,’ a combination of the ‘artificial economic revolution’ engendered by the French conquest and of the monopoly situation of imperialist influences, to which the weak Vietnamese bourgeoisie contributed its ‘rachitic economy’ and its incapacity to go beyond the agrarian and usurious stages of its development.” Consequently, “the capitalist mode of production and exploitation has become preponderant in Indochina.”


The Trotskyists argued, according to Hémery, that “the working masses are exploited not by national feudal interests but by a very modem imperialism and by the capitalist means of exploitation. This capitalist means of exploitation is exercised through a combined structure of imperialist and indigenous bourgeois domination.” Hence, “Imperialism is not a limited phenomenon on a superficial level of dependent societies which can be expelled by simple rejection, but has penetrated, ‘denatured’ their basic structures.”


The Stalinists, on the other hand, emphasized much more the exterior development of capitalism, used the word “imperialism” much more often in their discussions, and talked about “nonequivalent exchange,” which meant emphasis on the continuing feudal nature of Vietnamese society. One Stalinist leader wrote in 1932 that “the liquidators (the Trotskyists) consider Indochina as a new country, a capitalist countryside, they push their theoretical and practical ignorance to the point of affirming that the cause of the misery of the peasantry is its exploitation by the indigenous bourgeoisie. Where, then, are the feudal lord and the landed proprietor?” [14] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f14n)

(http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f14n)
Hémery went on to note that “from this came the antagonism of the two conceptions of the Vietnamese revolution. Democratic-bourgeoisie for its anti-imperialist and agrarian content for the Communists it cannot be accomplished in the absence of a truly revolutionary bourgeoisie except under the direction of the proletariat, and then develop according to an ‘uninterrupted’ process into the socialist revolution.” On the other hand, “Because of the impact of imperialism, on the ‘Asiatic’ structure of precolonial Vietnam, the Trotskyists thought ... that there was no possible stop at the bourgeois democratic stage, because there did not exist in Vietnam any historic basis for an autonomous bourgeois development; the emancipation of the peasantry and of the nation implies that the class struggle be carried out under the effective hegemony of the working class, to its proletarian finish, in a word, that there be permanent revolution.”[15] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f15n)

The La Lutte Group

Launching of La Lutte

The first tentative steps towards collaboration between the Struggle Group of Trotskyists, led by Ta Thu Thau, and the Stalinists were taken in connection with municipal elections in Saigon on April 30 and May 7, 1933. The two groups named Nguyen Van Tao and Tran Van Thach as their nominees for these elections. They also brought out the first issue of the French-language newspaper La Lutte on April 24. The two left candidates were elected, along with four conservative “constitutionalists,” but the leftists nominees’ election was annulled in August by the authorities [16] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f16n).
Although the publication of the newspaper had been suspended soon after the election, the independent Marxist Nguyen An Ninh acted as intermediary to bring about the reestablishment of the newspaper and the forging of a more durable alliance between the Trotskyists and Stalinists. His efforts were crowned with success about a year and a half after the election when an agreement was reached and signed by representatives of the two groups.


This agreement called for the joint publication of La Lutte and “specified the rules of its functioning: struggle oriented against the colonial power and its constitutionalist allies, support of the demands of workers and peasants without regard to which of the two groups they were affiliated with, diffusion of classic Marxist thought, rejection of all attacks against the USSR and against either current, collective editing of articles, which would be signed only in case of disagreement.” On this basis, La Lutte began regular publication on October 4, 1934 [17] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f17n).


The editorial board of the newspaper consisted of three elements: left-wing nationalists, Communists, and Trotskyists. Representing the first of these groups were Nguyen An Ninh, Le Van Thu, and Tran Van Thach; for the Communists there were four people, Nguyen Van Tao, Duong Bach Mai, Nguyen Van Nguyen, and Nguyen Thi Luu~ and there were five Trotskyists: Ta Thu Thau, Phan Van Huu, Ho Huu Tuong, Phan Van Chang, and Huynh Van Phuong. The manager was a Frenchman, Edgar Ganofsky [18] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f18n).


Communist influence predominated in La Lutte until late in 1936. The French police reported a statement by Tran Van Guau, a Communist leader, to the effect that “ La Lutte, which takes, in spite of certain faults, a Communist position, is more than under our influence; it is practically directed by the party [19] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f19n).

Early Campaigns of the La Lutte Group

The new paper and the group around it carned out many campaigns. One was constant support of the efforts of the workers to establish unions and to bargain collectively, which became very important and was marked by a large strike wave in late 1936 and early 1937, sparked by the sitdown strikes in France a few months earlier. Another was a drive for the election of a Popular Congress to draw up plans for the future of Vietnam, which involved the establishment of numerous local “action committees” to prepare for the congress, which committees the Trotskyists tended to regard as embryo soviets. Another was support of left-wing candidates in Cochin China assembly elections in March 1935, when three Communists and three Trotskyists were nominated in the east and center regions, and the La Lutte group got 17 percent of the votes in spite of a highly restrictive franchise and government favoritism for their constitutionalist opponents [20] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f20n).


A high point of electoral activity was the municipal election in Saigon in May 1935, when six La Lutte candidates ran, including three workers and three intellectuals [21] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f21n). I. Milton Sacks has noted that in this and other elections “The distinguishing characteristic of La Lutte’s participation in the municipal elections lay not in its program but in its candidates. These included, for the first time, a number of individuals who could by no stretch of the imagination be considered intellectuals. This ran counter to deep-seated Vietnamese beliefs about being educated, held in particular by the restricted electorate that could vote.” [22] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f22n)
In the May 1935 elections four of the La Lutte group’s six candidates were elected: Tran Van Thach, Nguyen Van Tao, Ta Thu Thau, and Duong Bach Mai [23] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f23n). Eventually, however, the elections of Tao, Thau, and Mai were annulled by the authorities [24] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f24n).


During this period the Trotskyists’ close collaboration with the Stalinists did not go without criticism even within the Struggle faction of the Trotskyists. Sacks has noted that “Ta Thu Thau ... had considerable difficulty in convincing many members of La Lutte that they should accept Duong Bach Mai as a candidate, since they regarded him as much too ‘reformist.’ Ta Thu Thau felt that the united front must be maintained and spoke for Duong Bach Mai as the most capable representative of the Vietnamese Stalinists.” [25] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f25n).


Sacks has indicated other important campaigns of the La Lutte group: “It carried on a campaign against the hard life of jailed Vietnamese and called for amnesty of political prisoners. It directly attacked the stereotypes which many French (and even some Vietnamese) held about the character of the Vietnamese people. ... To replace the restrictive, unrepresentative institutions that functioned in Indochina, La Lutte called for a parliament to be elected by universal suffrage. It championed democratic rights and liberties for all. It called for universal and free education and favored a program of public works. ...” [26] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f26n).

Impact of the Popular Front and the Blum Government

Although the Popular Front government’s advent to power in France at first created considerable hope among the La Lutte group, the event resulted in only marginal changes in Vietnam. Sacks has noted that “a number of political prisoners were released from jail. A greater measure of civil liberties was allowed, and the revolutionary underground organizations were able to build legal counterparts.”[27] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f27n) However, the government of Premier Leon Blum did not, in the end, bring any fundamental change in the colonial status of French Indochina. It did enact some modest legislation on behalf of workers, such as a minimum wage law, and passed very complicated legislation on unions which, although ostensibly providing for their legalization, in fact made it virtually impossible for them to achieve legal recognition [28] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f28n). Nevertheless, for about a year after the advent of the Popular Front government in France in early 1936 the colonial government did tolerate the de facto organization of substantial numbers of workers.


Perhaps the greatest disappointment of all, insofar as the left-wing Vietnamese were concerned was the failure to provide for any modification of the colonial status of their country. Not only was no kind of really representative govemment established in Viet Nam, but after long hesitation the Popular Front government rejected the idea of a Popular Congress which had been proposed by La Lutte and set out to suppress the local action committees which had been established to prepare for the Popular Congress. Colonial Minister Marius Moutet, a Socialist commented that “I have tried to find a formula which would permit a wide consultation with all elements of the popular [will] and not a so called popular meeting, in reality established under the aegis of the Trotskyist-Communists, intervening in the villages to menace and intimidate the peasant part of the population, taking all authority from the public officials. This formula we have not found, so I cannot permit the meeting of a congress in which the Trotskyists would incontestably be the leaders.” [29] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f29n)

Trotskyist Activities in Organized Labor

During the period before the Popular Front govemment’s final crackdown on the Vietnamese Left and the breaking up of the united front around La Lutte, the Trotskyists made considerable headway, particularly in the labor movement. In the spring of 1937 the Fédération Syndicale du Name Ky was organized under Trotskyist auspices. Its statutes were adopted on May 1.
The Federation had active organizers in at least thirty-nine enterprises in Saigon and Cholon including the important government arsenal plant, “where they were particularly influential,” as well as on the railroads, the tramways, in the water and electric company, the France-Asiatic Petroleum Company, several rice processing firms, pottery works, sugar refineries, in the Distilleries de l’Indochine at Binh Tay, and on the docks. Trotskyist influence was predominant in the wave of strikes which occurred in Cochin China in late 1936 and early 1937. Hemery has noted that “for the Vietnamese Trotskyist movement . . . this is the beginning of a base in the working class of the region of Saigon, the importance of which one can measure by the new frequency of the wamings in the clandestine Communist press against Trotskyism.” [30] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f30n)

(http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f30n)
Both Trotskyist factions (the Struggle Group and the October Group) participated in work in the labor movement and in the general upsurge of activity in 1936-37. Hémery has noted that “in Vietnam as in many other countries there seems always to have been maintained the structure of a group without ever truly acquiring that of a broad and solidly organized Party.” He partly explained this by noting that Ta Thu Thau was “above all, a tribune.” As to the rival October Group, Hémery noted that “after the beginning of the Militant in October 1936, the illegal Trotskyist group of Ho Huu Tuong was able ... to maintain its activity and mount a complete system of clandestine and legal publications, and was on the way to becoming a force to be reckoned with. It published its statutes in the May 1937 number of its journal Tien Quan (L’Avant Garde).” It was active both in trade union work and in organizing action committees for the proposed Popular Congress [31] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f31n).

Trotskyist-Stalinist Divergences Over the Popular Front

In spite of progress made by both Trotskyists and Stalinists under the somewhat more relaxed Vietnamese political atmosphere resulting from the establishment of the Popular Front government in France, there was fundamental disagreement between the Trotskyists — of both groups — and the Stalinists concerning the attitude to be assumed toward the Popular Front and the government it had installed. This disagreement was to bring about the end of the Trotskyist-Stalinist united front in Vietnam.
The Vietnamese Communists, like their French counterparts, were strong proponents of the Popular Front and of the supposedly “antifascist” role which it was playing. Maurice Thorez indicated in his report to the December 1937 congress of the French Communist Party the relationship between the antifascist struggle and the anticolonial issue in the French Empire. He commented that the interests of the colonial movements had to be subordinated to “defensive antifascism,” and added that “if the decisive question at the moment is the victorious struggle against fascism, the interest of the colonial people lies in their union with the people of France and not in an attitude which could favor the efforts of fascism.” [32] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f32n)
For its part the Indochinese Communist Party, in a resolution of its Central Committee in March 1937 which advocated the maintenance of the united front with the Trotskyists “and other nationalist currents,” nonetheless proclaimed that “the government of Leon Blum is only a capitalist government of a progressive character. ... It can carry out reforms in favor of the population and thwart the fascists. If we do not support it, it will be overthrown and the fascists will take power. We therefore have the duty to give it our support but we must not forget for that reason the task of training the masses for struggle to defend their immediate interests and to carry on revolutionary education of the population. Our Party doesn’t believe that in approving this idea of supporting the Blum government and the French Popular Front it gives up criticism of the metropolitan government and struggle against the barbarous policy of reactionary functionaries in the colony.” [33] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f33n)

(http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f33n)
But the Trotskyists took a radically different position. Their journal Tien Quan on May 15, 1937 wrote that “the partisans of the III International persist in supporting the Popular Front, alleging that it is not responsible for the acts of the government of the Popular Front and of the government of Indochina. The reality is that without the support of the Popular Front, there would not be a government of the Popular Front and that, without the confidence accorded by it to [the Governor General], without the confidence given by him to the chiefs of the local administration, and so on, there would not be the repressions suffered by the Indochinese masses.”


Hémery summed up the Trotskyists’ position: “For the Trotskyists, imperialism under the regime of the Popular Front remained imperialism. There was no need therefore to change the tactics of the revolutionary movement. After as before 1936 those consisted of the class struggle and of anti-imperialist combats for the long-term objective of a revolution with proletarian leadership and content. And to carry out for themselves in Vietnam the virtually Sisyphean task assigned at that historic moment and everywhere to the international Trotskyist movement: the construction of labor parties which were both revolutionary and associated with the masses.“ [34] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f34n)

(http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f34n)
In March 1937 the Indochinese Communist Party proposed a new front of Indochinese parties and groups to support the French Popular Front. It should, according to the Stalinists, not only fight against the local authorities’ abuses, but “explain the policy of the government of the Popular Front to the population and support this policy. ... To support the government is a means of legally opposing its local representatives, of exploiting the apparent contradication between Paris and Hanoi.” [35] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f35n)
The Trotskyists were strongly opposed to such a front. On the contrary, according to Hémery, they wanted “to play to the maximum the theme of anti-imperialism to obtam the political changes refused by the ministry of Leon Blum. The real international risk is in submitting the colonial struggle to the exigencies of a colonialism labelled antifascism.” [36] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f36n)

Breakup of the La Lutte United Front

These drastically different points of view with regard to the Popular Front and the general approach to revolutionary activity in Indochina under the Popular Front regime, as well as others with regard to the Moscow Trials and similar issues, spelled the end to the Trotskyist-Stalinist united front which had been built around La Lutte. However, there was clearly considerable reluctance on both sides to destroy an alliance which had served well the purposes of both participating groups.


An important factor leading to the breakup of the La Lutte united front was a decisive shift in the balance of power within the group participating in the newspaper. By late 1936 the Trotskyists were winning over to their side the left nationalists, who held the balance of power in the group. Tran Van Thach joined the Trotskyists in October 1936 and H~mery noted “others were going to imitate him.” [37] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f37n).


As a consequence of this development the tone of La Lutte began to change. It began to reprint extensively articles from French Trotskyist publications. One of these was a report on the French Radical Party congress of October 1936, which blamed all of the mistakes of the Popular Front on them and asked rhetorically what could be expected of people who had served in the cabinet of Pierre Laval. On December 31 the Stalinists published in La Lutte an “open letter to the La Lutte group” which complained of alleged violations of the united front accord, including the publishing of five articles from the Trotskyist press [38] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f38n). In February 1937 the paper published an article attacking the Chinese Communist Party for joining forces with the Kuomintang in the battle against the Japanese. An earlier article in December 1936 suggested that there should be a “colonial Zimmerwald” if a new war broke out [39] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f39n).


In March and early April 1937 there was a polemic in the pages of La Lutte between the Stalinist Nguyen An Ninh and the Trotskyist Ta Thu Thau over the Indochinese policy of the Paris government. However, the La Lutte group published a resolution in the March 21 issue anouncing their intention to continue the united front, saying that the disappearance of the paper would be a “formidable retreat” by labor and the “progressive forces.”
One reason for hesistancy at that time to break up the Trotskyist-Stalinist united front was the fact that the victories of three of the four La Lutte people who had been elected in municipal elections shortly before had been cancelled by the authorities. Until new elections were held, in May, both sides were anxious to continue their cooperation. In the new elections the three men involved, Ta Thu Thau, Nguyen Van Tao, and Duong Bach Mai, were reelected [40] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f40n).


At that point, however, the maintenance of the unity of the group around La Lutte became impossible. On June 9, a final common meeting of the group took place which adopted the proposal of Ta Thu Thau that there be cessation of all attacks against the Popular Front in the newspaper for three months, during which the Ministry of Colonies would be presented with a minimum program demanding amnesty, political freedom, trade union rights, and the purging of the Indochinese administration. The Communists accepted the four points to be sent to the Ministry but rejected the concept of a deadline, “a condition which they felt incompatible with their conception of the Popular Front.” As a consequence Nguyen Van Tao, Duong Bach Mai, and Nguyen left La Lutte, “which thereupon became the Trotskyist biweekly of the South.” [41] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f41n)

(http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f41n)
There were undoubtedly outside pressures which helped foment the final split between the Trotskyists and Stalinists in the La Lutte group. These came particularly from the French Communist Party and the Communist Intemational. Hémery has noted that on March 3, 1937, Stalin gave a violent anti-Trotskyist speech, after which “the International mobilized to glorify the Moscow Trials.” He added that “the deleterious wind which inflated its leading organs brought innumerable polemics to Saigon ...”
More directly, the Comintern sent instructions to its Vietnamese affiliate, instructions which were signed by Gitton, the administrative secretary of the French Communist Party, and were dated May 10, 1937. These instructions said, “We are surprised that you have not received a letter which we sent there several weeks ago to comrade Mai. In that letter we gave our advice concerning the internal situation of the La Lutte group. We consider as impossible the continuation of collaboration between the party and the Trotskyists. In this letter we have also included the complete text of directives we have received for you concerning the attitude to be taken toward the Trotskyists in Indochina. ... We have received a letter from comrade Nguyen Van Nguyen also on the subject of collaboration with the Trotskyists. We have transmitted that letter to the House [the Communist International] with our personal observations.” [42] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f42n).


However, William Duiker has noted that “even then, the ICP may not have responded with sufficient alacrity, for in the midsummer a high-ranking member of the FCP [French Communist Party] paid an official visit to Indochina, presumably to convey to the Party leadership in Vietnam the seriousness with which Moscow viewed any further cooperation with Trotskyites in Saigon. After this visit, the collaboration ceased entirely and in succeeding years the two factions competed for support among workers and intellectuals in Saigon-not always to the ICP’s advantage.” [43] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f43n)
Although the breakup of the Trotskyist-Stalinist united front was probably inevitable given the then existing relations between the two groups on an international scale, it may well have been hastened by pressure from the French Communists and the Communist International.

Vietnamese Trotskyism 1937-1939

During the two years following the breakup of the united front around La Lutte, the Vietnamese Trotskyists continued to be divided into two groups. From time to time they engaged in polemics with one another, although they generally shared the same p1atform and ideas.


The Struggle Group organized around Ta Thu Thau seems to have been the official Vietnamese Section of the Fourth International in this period [44] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f44n). It continued to publish La Lutte in French and in 1939 began to publish a Vietnamese language version Tranh Dau as well. In elections for the Cochin China Colonial Council in April 1939 three Trotskyists of the Struggle Group, Ta Thu Thau, Tran Van Thach, and Phan Van Hum, got 80 percent of the total vote, “defeating three Constitutionalists, two Stalinists, and several independent representatives. ... ” I. Milton Sacks has commented that “this was probably the high point of Trotskyist strength in Indochina in the pre-World War II period. A Trotskyist source claims that they had a Vietnamese membership of three thousand in 1939.” Sacks also noted that as the threat of war approached, the Struggle Group established an underground organization in the Saigon-Cholon area [45] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f45n).
Meanwhile, the October Group continued to be active. It proposed a joint Trotskyist-Stalinist ticket for the 1939 elections, but when the Struggle Group rejected that idea does not seem to have done anything on its own [46] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f46n). Its legal newspaper Le Militant was suppressed at the end of 1937 because of its vigorous support of strikes then in progress. However, it quickly began to publish October once again as “a semilegal magazine” and also put out Tia Sang (Spark), first as a weekly and then at the beginning of 1939 as a daily newspaper, [47] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f47n). perhaps the only Trotskyist daily then in existence anywhere.


With the outbreak of World War II the Trotskyists were severely repressed. A French law of September 26, 1939, which legally dissolved the French Communist Party, was also applied to Indochina and its enforcement encompassed not only the Stalinists but the Trotskyists as well. I. Milton Sacks has noted that “the French colonial police arrested some two hundred Stalinists and Trotskyists. The Indochina Communist Party and the Trotskyist soups were driven completely underground.” [48] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f48n)

Vietnamese Trotskyists During World War II

Clearly the Stalinists were better able to maintain their clandestine organization in the face of persecution by the colonial authorities than were the Trotskyists. John Sharpe claimed that this was the case because the Trotskyists were a greater menace to the French authorities than were the Stalinists (a somewhat dubious proposition), because the Stalinists were able to retreat across the border into China and subsequently received aid from both the Chinese and the Americans, and “partly because the Stalinists had begun retreating to clandestmity as early as 1938.” [49] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f49n).
In any case, during the first five years of the war there was little evidence of organized Trotskyist activity in Vietnam. Only within the last year of the conflict did the two Trotskyist groups revive.


The first group to be reconstituted was the October Group, reestablished in August 1944 under the name International Communist League. At that time it had “only several dozen members.” However, one Trotskyist source has claimed that “among these were five founders of the Vietnamese Trotskyist movement, each having at least twelve years’ experience of revolutionary struggle, and several experienced cadre formerly from the Hanoi section.” [50] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f50n).


In March 1945, the Japanese, who had been occupying French Indochina since September 1940, dispensed with the puppet French administration which they had maintained in place until then. Upon that occasion the International Communist League (ICL) issued a call to “the revolutionary Saigon masses,” dated March 24, 1945. This document argued that “The future defeat of Japanese imperialism will set the Indochinese people on the road to national liberation. The bourgeoisie and feudalism who cravenly serve the Japanese rulers today will serve equally the Allied imperialist states. The petty-bourgeois nationalists, by their aimless policy, will also be incapable of leading the people towards revolutionary victory. Only the working class, which struggles independently under the flag of the Fourth International, will be able to accomplish the advance guard tasks of the revolution.”


The document also denounced the Communists, saying that “the Stalinists of the Third International have already abandoned the working class to group themselves miserably with the ‘democratic’ imperialisms. They have betrayed the peasants and no longer speak of the agrarian question. If today they march with foreign capitalists, in the future, they will help the class of national exploiters to destroy the revolutionary people in the hours to come.” [51] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f51n)

(http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f51n)
I. Milton Sacks noted that the program of the ICL “called for opposition to imperialism and for support of world revolution, a worker-peasant united front, the creation of people’s committees (soviets), establishment of a constituent assembly, arms for the people, seizure of land by the peasants, nationalization of the factories under workers’ control, and the creation of the workers’ and peasants government.” [52] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f52n).


The Struggle Group was also revived shortly before the end of the war. It was reestablished in May-June 1945. Sacks noted that “the difference between the two Trotskyist groups, revolving mainly around the question of relations with the Vietnamese Stalinists, had not been reconciled, though their programs tended to be similar.” [53] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f53n) However, a Trotskyist source claimed that the Struggle Group policy differed fundamentally from that of the JCL on at least one issue. For at least some time, the Struggle Group participated in a so-called National United Front, together with the Vietnamese Kuomintang, and the Cao Dai and Hoa Hao religious sects [54] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f54n).

Trotskyism and the Viet Minh

The Beginning of the Viet Minh Regime

With the collapse of the Japanese and the end of World War II on August 16, 1945, the Stalinists were able almost immediately to seize power through a coalition which they had formed and dominated, which was popularly known as the Viet Minh. Although within a short time British troops arrived in the Cochin China area and Chinese Nationalist troops in the north, followed after some time by the return of French forces, the Communists continued for some time to control much of the civilian administration of Vietnam. In late 1945 Ho Chi Minh went to France to try to negotiate Vietnamese independence under his leadership, and only after those negotiations failed did the military conflict between the Communist-led forces and their opponents, which was to go on for more than a quarter of a century, get under way.


During the weeks following the end of the war, both Trotskyist groups were very active. However, they followed very different policies. I. Milton Sacks has noted that “as distinct from the Trotskyist Struggle Group, which participated in the United National Front and in the negotiations with the Viet Minh, the International Communist League denounced the Viet Minh as a coalition including bourgeois elements in Vietnamese society; the League called on the masses to complete the revolution that had brought independence by building up People’s Committees as organs of state power and by distributing land to the peasants.”


Sacks concluded concerning the LCL that “they conceived of their role as equivalent to that of the Bolsheviks vis-à-vis the 1917 Kerensky government in Russia, with the Viet Minh government cast in the role of representative of the bourgeoisie. The International Communist League’s agitation for arming the population did strike a responsive chord among other nationalist groups who mistrusted the British and feared loss of their independence.” [55] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f5n)

(http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f5n)
Although from the beginning the Communists, through the Viet Minh, controlled the northern part of Vietnam, this was not the case in the Saigon area in the south. There the National United Front, of which the Struggle Group was a member took over effective control. It was not until August 25, nine days after the Japanese surrender that the Stalinists were able to carry out a bloodless coup and seize power in Saigon [56] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f56n).
Meanwhile, on August 21, the National United Front had organized an independence demonstration, attended reportedly by 300,000 people. A Trotskyist source noted that “The Hoa Hao and Cao Dai marched behind the monarchist flag with a delegation of 100,000. The Trotskyists of the International Communist League represented the other main pole of attraction in the march. Behind a huge banner of the Fourth International came a series of placards and banners with the ICL’s main slogans. ... As the banner of the Fourth International appeared, hundreds and thousands of workers who had never forgotten the revolutionary movement of the 1930s flocked behind it. ... In a matter of a few hours, the contingent of the ICL grew to 30,000. ” [57] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f57n)

(http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f57n)
The ICL was very active after August 16 in establishing “People’s Committees” to take over power in local areas. Reportedly, it organized over 150 such groups about 100 of which were in the Saigon-Cholon area. After the August 21 demonstration, a Provisional Central Committee of nine members (later expanded to fifteen) was set up to coordinate these People’s Committees under Trotskyist control.


A Vietnamese Trotskyist, writing in Quatrième Internationale, said later that “the ICL led the revolutionary masses through the intermediary of the People’s Committees. ... Despite its numerical weakness, the ICL achieved, for the first time in the history of the Indochinese revolution the grandiose historic task of creating the People’s committee or Soviet.” [58] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f58n)

(http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f58n)
The People’s Committees controlled by the ICL refused to give political support to the Viet Minh government. They also called for armed resistance against the landing of Allied troops in the Saigon region, and demanded arming of the workers and peasants “and took practical steps to carry this out.” They also demanded nationalization of all industries and their being placed under the control of the workers [59] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f59n)

(http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f59n)
Meanwhile, the Struggle Group not only had participated in the National United Front and its temporary regime in the south, but also extended their activities to the Hanoi region in the north. There they published a daily newspaper, Tranh Dau (Struggle), with a reported circulation of some 30,000. They also published a number of books. They were particularly influential in the immediate postwar period in the Bach Mai area.
The Trotskyists of the Struggle Group played at least a minor role in the Viet Minh regime at its inception. Ta Thu Thau was reportedly placed in charge of coordinating flood relief[60] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f60n). For a short while the Struggle Group had a seat in the Southern Committee of the Viet Minh [61] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f61n). The Group also had at least a few members of the provisional parliament which the Viet Minh regime established. On one occasion, when the Trotskyist members of this body were interrogating one of the Viet Minh ministers, the minister involved patted his gun and commented that he would answer that question “later,” an obvious effort to intimidate the questioner [62] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f62n).

Obliteration of Vietnamese Trotskyism by the Ho Chi Minh Government

Although in August 1945 the Vietnamese Trotskyists were an element of substantial importance in the country’s politics, within a few months they had been virtually exterminated — politically and for the most part physically — by the Communist government headed by Ho Chi Minh. The few Trotskyists escaping this holocaust were forced to flee abroad.
British troops under the command of General Gracey landed in Saigon on September 10, 1945. They were greeted with banners and slogans of welcome by the Viet Minh regime. However, the International Communist League and the People’s Committees under their control denounced the “treason” of the Stalinist regime in not only allowing them to land but welcoming them as well. A manifesto to this effect was issued on September 12.
Two days later, Duong Bach Mai, onetime member of the editorial board of La Lutte and now Viet Minh chief of Police in Saigon, ordered the arrest of the leaders of the ICL. At 4P.M, September 12, 1945, the headquarters of the pro-ICL People’s Councils were surrounded by Viet Minh police. According to the ICL account of what followed, “We conducted ourselves as true revolutionary militants. We let ourselves be arrested without using violence against the police, even though we were more numerous and well armed. They took our machine guns and automatic pistols. They sacked our office, breaking furniture, ripping our flags, stealing the typewriters and burning all our papers” [63] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f63n)
Seeking to explain this peculiar event, I. Milton Sacks has suggested that “It seems that these Trotskyists still considered that they were part of the same movement as the Stalinists.” He then added that “the Viet Minh, for its part, displayed no such tender concern for the ‘true militants.’ In the months that followed, the leadership of both Trotskyist groups, the Struggle and the October, was decimated. The Stalinists were determined that their authority be accepted over the entire nationalist movement.” [64] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f64n)
“Among those who were shot immediately after their arrest on September 12, 1945, were Lo Ngoc, member of the Central Committee of the Intemational Communist League, and Nguyen Van Ky, a leading LCL trade unionist. Some ICLers who escaped this first roundup helped to organize some armed resistance in working-class areas. This centered on the Go Vap streetcar depot, where about sixty workers gathered. However, after being forced to retreat into a rural area outside of Saigon, they were overrun in January 1946, and the ICL leader of the resistance, Tranh Dinh Minh, was among those killed.” [65] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f65n)

(http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f65n)
Soon after rounding up most of the ICL leaders, the Viet Minh government moved against the Struggle Group in the Saigon region. According to one Trotskyist source, the police “surrounding its headquarters in the Thu Due area ... arrested the entire group and interned them at Ben Suc. There they were all shot as French troops approached.” Among those murdered at this time were Tran Van Thach, Phan Van Huu, Nguyen Van Tao “and tens of other revolutionary militants.” [66] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f66n)

(http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f66n)
The turn of the Struggle Group leaders in the northern part of the country came not too long afterwards: “A letter to the International Secretariat of the Fourth International ... spoke of a well-organized but persecuted organization of the Struggle Group in the North. Led by ‘Th— ‘former leader of the Tonkin printers during 1937-38, it held large meetings and published several books in addition to its daily newspaper. One region where the line of the Struggle Group had particular success was Bach Mai. As a result of a large meeting there, Ho Chi Minh gave the order to arrest Th— and other supporters of the Fourth International. ... Already a large number of Trotskyists had perished in the resistance. Eventually this group, too, was wiped out entirely by the Stalinist repression.” [67] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f67n)
The most notorious case was that of Ta Thu Thau, who as we have noted held some sort of position within the Viet Minh regime. Late in 1945 he left Hanoi to go to Saigon, but was arrested on the way. He was tried three different times by local People’s Committees under Viet Minh control, but was acquitted each time. However, “finally, he was simply shot in Quang Ngai in February 1946, on orders from the southern Stalinist leader, Tran Van Giau.” [68] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f68n)
Some controversy has continued to surround the murder of Ta Thu Thau. The historian of the La Lutte united front, Daniel Hémery, expressed doubt as to whether he was executed on the orders of the top Vietnamese Stalinist leaders [69] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f69n). However, that this was the case seems highly likely. As Rodolphe Prager, the French Trotskyist leader and historiographer, has pointed out, Ta Thu Thau was executed in Central Vietnam, where the officials of the southern part of the country had no jurisdiction, which would seem to indicate that he was done away with on orders from the highest sources.


When Ho Chi Minh was in Paris at the end of 1945 Prager was among those who asked him about how and why the Vietnamese Trotskyist leader had been killed. He replied that Ta Thu Thau and the other Trotskyist leaders were really revolutionaries and that it was a great shame that they had been killed, but that it had been done by local Viet Minh officials under conditions in which it was impossible for those in Hanoi to control what all of the local leaders were doing [70] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f70n).


However, during this same trip Ho Chi Minh gave a different reply to Daniel Guerin, a French Socialist leader, who also asked about the fate of Ta Thu Thau and other Trotskyists. According to Guerin, “ ‘Thau was a great partriot and we mourn him.’ Ho Chi Minh told me with unfeigned emotion. But a moment later he added in a steady voice ‘All those who do not follow the line which I have laid down will be broken.’” [71] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f71n)
Some remnants of Trotskyist influence seem to have continued in the area of the Republic of Vietnam in the south until it was overrun by the Stalmists in 1975. From time to time, for instance, there were reports of some Trotskyist influence in the trade union movement of South Vietnam [72] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f72n).
Apparently the memories of Ta Thu Thau and some of the other Trotskyist leaders still lingered in Vietnam into the 1980s. During the period of the Vietnam War of the 1960s and 1970s, streets in Saigon were named after Ta Thu Thau and two other Trotskyist leaders. According to reports as late as the early part of 1982, the Stalinist victors in that war had not seen fit to change the names of those streets’[73] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f73n)

Vietnamese Trotskyism in Exile

With the physical extermination of most Trotskyist leaders and cadres in Vietnam itself, the major remnants of the Vietnamese Trotskyist movement were to be found in France among the 12,000 Vietnamese said to be living there right after World War II. As many as 500 of them were reported to be members of the Groupe Communiste Internationaliste de Vietnam (GCI — Internationalist Communist Group of Vietnam). The movement published a paper Tranh Dau (Struggle) until 1947, when the Groupe held its first congress. Thereafter the paper was known as Vo San and was published until 1958 [74] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f74n).


As a result of a move by the French government to send most of the Vietnamese migrants back to their homeland, about three-quarters of the Trotskyists were deported. They “simply disappeared after their return to Vietnam presumably through capitulation to the Viet Minh Stalinists or liquidation by either the Stalinists or the French.”


There were only about seventy Vietnamese Trotskyists left in France by 1952. The GCI included former members of both the Struggle Group and the ICL of Vietnam. The GCI was split at the time of the division in the Fourth International in the early 1950s, with some forty members of the organization reported as supporting the Pablo position, and eighteen backing the anti-Pabloites. The latter put out one issue of a paper, Cours Nouveau.


With the establishment of the United Secretariat of the Fourth International in 1963 the Vietnamese Trotskyists in France were again united, establishing the Bolshevik-Leninist Group of Vietnam (BLGV). However, after 1964 the BLGV did not have a paper of its own, but participated in editing an anti-Stalinist journal sympathetic to Trotskyism, known as Quat San [75] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f75n).


It is known that the BLGV continued to exist at least as late as 1974. At that time, it sent a letter to the Tenth World Congress of the United Secretariat. This document, after expressing regret at not being able to be represented at the congress, and noting that it had received little or no aid from either the International or its French section, ended by asking two questions: “(1) Should the International concern itself with a Vietnamese Trotskyist group which has remained loyal to the International and which has carried on against great obstacles, in the most difficult of conditions? (2) Should we work towards creation of a section of the Fourth International in Vietnam?” [76] (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/alex/works/in_trot/viet.htm#f76n)
It is highly doubtful that any organized Vietnamese Trotskyist group continued to exist either in Vietnam or in France by the early 1980s. At least, at the time of a visit to France in July 1982, none of the several Fourth Internationals with which the author had contact professed to have a Vietnamese affiliate of any kind.

Conclusion

By the early 198os the history of the Vietnamese Trotskyist movement, which had once been among the most important and influential segments of International Trotskyism, had been all but forgotten by the Trotskyists themselves. There are at least two reasons. In the first place, the very thoroughness of the Stalinist extermination of the Trotskyist leadership in Vietnam left no outstanding figure of the movement alive to tell about it outside the country, and to continue to be active in one or another faction of the international Trotskyist movement.


However, there is undoubtedly another factor of importance which makes memories of the history of Vietnamese Trotskyism at least embarrassing for International Trotskyism. This was the passion, effort and attention paid by Trotskyists of virtually all countries and all factions to support of the Stalinist side during the long and cruel Vietnam War, which in one form or another went on for thirty years, from 1945 to 1975. With such strong commitment to the “degenerated workers state” of Ho Chi Minh and his successors any memories of what he had done to fellow Trotskyists had to be at least a source of discomfort if not outright embarrassment to the world Trotskyist movement.

Crux
28th September 2011, 04:34
Lesson: When the stalinist cops knocks on your door, it's better to go down fighting.

Who?
28th September 2011, 05:18
Typical Trotskyite ideologue nonsense.

Zealot
28th September 2011, 05:46
Cool story bro.

Rising Sun
28th September 2011, 06:35
this was like what sixty years ago??

jesus jehovah people lets move on.... there are people starving!!!

ughhhh

Ismail
28th September 2011, 12:11
However, there is undoubtedly another factor of importance which makes memories of the history of Vietnamese Trotskyism at least embarrassing for International Trotskyism. This was the passion, effort and attention paid by Trotskyists of virtually all countries and all factions to support of the Stalinist side during the long and cruel Vietnam War, which in one form or another went on for thirty years, from 1945 to 1975. With such strong commitment to the “degenerated workers state” of Ho Chi Minh and his successors any memories of what he had done to fellow Trotskyists had to be at least a source of discomfort if not outright embarrassment to the world Trotskyist movement.The author obviously isn't a leftist and consequently has no conception of materialist and/or class analysis. Ho Chi Minh could have spent five minutes every morning bowing down to a shrine of Hitler and it'd have no impact on the national liberation struggle he and his government waged against French and later US imperialism.

Call Ho a "Stalinist" all you want, but to basically call the North Vietnamese side worse than the Americans because the former killed Trots is to take a Shachtmanite position.

Also wouldn't Trots call it a "deformed workers state," not a "degenerated" one? I mean at least most Trots did support the cause of national liberation rather than take a centrist position. It doesn't mean Ho Chi Minh was the best guy ever, it just means that you never side with imperialism.

Crux
28th September 2011, 14:11
The author obviously isn't a leftist and consequently has no conception of materialist and/or class analysis. Ho Chi Minh could have spent five minutes every morning bowing down to a shrine of Hitler and it'd have no impact on the national liberation struggle he and his government waged against French and later US imperialism.

Call Ho a "Stalinist" all you want, but to basically call the North Vietnamese side worse than the Americans because the former killed Trots is to take a Shachtmanite position.

Also wouldn't Trots call it a "deformed workers state," not a "degenerated" one? I mean at least most Trots did support the cause of national liberation rather than take a centrist position. It doesn't mean Ho Chi Minh was the best guy ever, it just means that you never side with imperialism.
This makes me question whetever you've read the article at all, comrade. The question of national liberation is quite extensively written about in the article. Unlike Ho Chi Minh the trotskyists never sold out to the french (in the form of the Popular Front government) or the brittish. I do hope you've read more than just that last part, but let's adress that as well. What he is adressing is an uncritical attitude that some trotskyist organizations, the USFI comes to mind, adopted to the North Vietnamese regime. In the same way that the USSR or Cuba and other deformed and degenerated worker's states deserve our support in the case of imperialist agression so too does vietnam. That does not mean we should sow illusions in those regime or use chants like "Stalin!", "Fidel!" or "Ho Chi Minh!". Doing so would be denying our own movements history, the correc perspective and analysis that the comrades and the repression they suffered under respective regimes. The diffrence between a deformed and a degenerated worker' lies in how they come about, beyond that the characteristics are basically the same. As a hoxhaist I thought you would be familiar with the thinking, or was it all statecap to you?

Crux
28th September 2011, 14:21
Typical Trotskyite ideologue nonsense.
Can't tell if serious...
Interestingly enough vietnam is also an example of co-operation between the stalinist CP and the trotskyists, which you would have known if you had read the article. Even the armed People's Comittees did not shoot at the stalnist cops when they came to take them awya as they fundamentally still considered them to be a part of the same movement. A fatal mistake as the backstabby stalinists would show. What exactly is "ideologue nonsense"? You can't deny history.

Ismail
28th September 2011, 14:29
As a hoxhaist I thought you would be familiar with the thinking, or was it all statecap to you?I'm familiar with the thinking, but North Vietnam was a state-capitalist regime, and modern-day Vietnam is more or less openly capitalist à la China and Laos.


The question of national liberation is quite extensively written about in the article.Yes but it's explaining the views of the Vietnamese Trotskyists, whereas the author himself does not seem to identify as a Trot. He also wrote books on Maoist movements and the Right Opposition (both in the same vein as his book on Trotskyist movements) as well.

I don't see how you can take that final quote as anything other than saying that the Trotskyists the world over should have denounced North Vietnam and refused to take sides during the Vietnam War. He just calls the war "long and cruel" (implying that both sides were more or less equally in the wrong) and says that Trotskyists who supported North Vietnam should be ashamed.

Crux
28th September 2011, 14:45
I'm familiar with the thinking, but North Vietnam was a state-capitalist regime, and modern-day Vietnam is more or less openly capitalist à la China and Laos.

Yes but it's explaining the views of the Vietnamese Trotskyists, whereas the author himself does not seem to identify as a Trot. He also wrote books on Maoist movements and the Right Opposition (both in the same vein as his book on Trotskyist movements) as well.

I don't see how you can take that final quote as anything other than saying that the Trotskyists the world over should have denounced North Vietnam and refused to take sides during the Vietnam War. He just calls the war "long and cruel" (implying that both sides were more or less equally in the wrong) and says that Trotskyists who supported North Vietnam should be ashamed.
Indeed the author does not seem to be a trotskyist, which would render som non-partisanship ( which also makes the "trotskyite ideolouge" quip even more embarressing for it's author) vis a vis his descripion of the trotskyist movement in vietnam, who was a major force in the vietnamese working class, just speaking electorally taking 80% of the votes in Saigon is no small feat.
If that is his point, so be it, I do not agree with that. However that is not how I read it, but rather as a reminder to the trotskyist groups who had taken to forgetting their own movements history in Vietnam. Defending a state against imperialist agression and defending the regime is not one and the same, given that you designate Vietnam statecapitalist I would suppose you are aware of this.

Crux
28th September 2011, 14:51
this was like what sixty years ago??

jesus jehovah people lets move on.... there are people starving!!!

ughhhh
You read Marx (although on second thought perhaps you don't)? My God he's been dead since 1883! Move on! :rolleyes:

RED DAVE
28th September 2011, 15:01
Call Ho a "Stalinist" all you want, but to basically call the North Vietnamese side worse than the Americans because the former killed Trots is to take a Shachtmanite position.As a former Shactmanite, you are, as usual, distorting a historic position.

Meanwhile, we have one more piece of evidence of the perfidy of stalinists.

RED DAVE

Crux
28th September 2011, 15:23
May I remind you that there are more features to the article than the authors own opinions in the final conclusion. Even though the Ho Chi Minh government murdered the trotskyists tey were still under such pressure from the masses and ememory of the comrades were still so bclear that several streets in Saigon were named after trotskyist leaders. The position of the trotskyists in the national liberation struggle ought to be quite vindicated as well, especially if you look at the present state of vietnam.

Ismail
28th September 2011, 15:31
As a former Shactmanite, you are, as usual, distorting a historic position.Very well, I'll be more blunt: the author seems to suggest taking the position of an anti-communist.

RED DAVE
28th September 2011, 15:58
Very well, I'll be more blunt: the author seems to suggest taking the position of an anti-communist.That may well be, but that's no reason to distort the politics of another tendency.

In addition, this does not get away from the fact that the Vietnamese Stalinists murdered the leadership of another tendency.

And let me be blunt: do you justify the murder of the Vietnamese Trotskyist leadership by the Vietnamese Stalinists?

RED DAVE

Nothing Human Is Alien
28th September 2011, 16:29
"...the Party cannot put forth too high a demand (national independence, parliament, etc.)... It should only claim for democratic rights...." - Ho Chi Minh, The Party's Line in the Period of the Democratic Front. 1939.

"We are convinced that the Allies, which at the Teheran and San Francisco Conferences upheld the principle of equality among the nations, cannot fail to recognize the right of the Vietnamese people to independence." - Ho Chi Minh. 1945.

"...in order to complete the Party's task in this immense movement of the Vietnamese people's emancipation, a national union conceived without distinction of class and parties is an indispensable factor.... the Communists, in so far as they are advance guard militants of the Vietnamese people, are always ready to make the greatest sacrifices for national liberation, are always disposed to put the interest of the country above that of classes...." - Communique of Central Committee Indochina Communist Party, November 11, 1945. Appears in: Trager, Frank N. Marxism in Southest Asia: A study of four countries. pp 158. Original source: La Republique, October 25, 1945.

"The present South Vietnamese regime is a camouflaged colonial regime dominated by the Yankees.... Therefore, this regime must be overthrown and a government of national and democratic union put in its place composed of representatives of all social classes, of all nationalities, of the various political parties, of all religions .... Support the national bourgeoisie in the reconstruction and development of crafts and industry." - Program of the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam (1960). Fall, Bernard and Raskin, Marcus. The Viet-Nam Reader. pp. 216-218.

"Our program reflects the broad nature of the Front and the forces represented in it. We are in favor of land to the peasants for instance, but not systematic confiscation: we are for reduction of rents but for the maintenance of present property rights except in the case of traitors. Landlords who have not supported the U.S. puppets have nothing to fear." - Nguyen Huu Tho, Chairman, National Liberation Front. Burchett, Wilfred. Vietnam: Inside Story of the Guerilla War. pp. 187.

"Those who incite the people to arm themselves will be considered saboteurs and provocateurs, enemies of national independence. Our democratic liberties will be granted and guaranteed by the democratic allies [i.e. U.S., British, etc., imperialism]." - Tran Van Giau, Executive Committee Member of the ICP, chairman of the Viet Minh Committee of the South,1945.

After the Japanese were defeated, Giau and co. welcomed the "democratic allies" with banners, rallies, flags and more. They responded by proclaiming martial law, banning demonstrations and outlawing all Vietnamese newspapers and leaflets, and the possession of arms.

Nothing Human Is Alien
28th September 2011, 16:33
http://a31.idata.over-blog.com/2/84/53/29/lecler10.jpg

Ho Chi Minh and French General Leclerc de Hauteclocque toast agreement to reintroduce French troops in north Vietnam in 1946.

RED DAVE
28th September 2011, 17:00
http://a31.idata.over-blog.com/2/84/53/29/lecler10.jpg

Ho Chi Minh and French General Leclerc de Hauteclocque toast agreement to reintroduce French troops in north Vietnam in 1945.
http://www.baburambhattarai.com/files/2011-09-24-6barak-and-baburam.jpgNepalese Maoist leader Bhattarai and the political leader of world imperialism.

Some things never change.

RED DAVE

Ismail
28th September 2011, 17:31
On Vietnamese revisionism: http://ml-review.ca/aml/China/ALLIANCE27HOCHIMINH.htm

Ho wanted Hoxha to patch up relations with the USSR in the name of the "unity" of the "communist camp," so evidently he wasn't some extraordinary beacon of "Stalinism."


And let me be blunt: do you justify the murder of the Vietnamese Trotskyist leadership by the Vietnamese Stalinists?Of course. In Albania the forces of national liberation did the same. You regard "Stalinists" as enemies of the revolution, whereas we regard Trotskyists as such. Fair's fair.

Who?
28th September 2011, 17:57
Can't tell if serious...
Interestingly enough vietnam is also an example of co-operation between the stalinist CP and the trotskyists, which you would have known if you had read the article. Even the armed People's Comittees did not shoot at the stalnist cops when they came to take them awya as they fundamentally still considered them to be a part of the same movement. A fatal mistake as the backstabby stalinists would show. What exactly is "ideologue nonsense"? You can't deny history.

Well, I called you a "Trotskyite ideologue" and I was referring to the posting of the article to upset Stalinists rather than the article itself as "nonsense".

I understand the importance of revisiting the history of our movement and understanding what went wrong but posting a clearly biased anti-communist account of the events that occurred in Vietnam won't help us. I'm not a Stalinist, I'm just tired of your irrelevant tendency whining about how Stalinists betrayed you again and again - as if that's the reason no Trotskyist groups have ever been successful - I think you should analyze the flaws in Trotskyist tactics instead of using Stalinists as scapegoats.

Crux
28th September 2011, 18:05
On Vietnamese revisionism: http://ml-review.ca/aml/China/ALLIANCE27HOCHIMINH.htm

Ho wanted Hoxha to patch up relations with the USSR in the name of the "unity" of the "communist camp," so evidently he wasn't some extraordinary beacon of "Stalinism."

Of course. In Albania the forces of national liberation did the same. You regard "Stalinists" as enemies of the revolution, whereas we regard Trotskyists as such. Fair's fair.
Evidently he was. Stalinism isn't aterm exclusive for the minor albanian-aligned current.

Yes, backstabbers and murderers. And again, unlike the stalinists, the trotskyists never surrendered to the West. Not during WW2, not in Vietnam. But because they could not win politically the stalinists had to exterminate them physically. So you have nothing at all to say for the political arguments of the vietnamese trotskyists? The setting up of People's Committees? Or what about the treachery of the stalinists? As the article notes the ICL did not resist the stalinists when they came to arrest them because they still, erroneously as it would turn out, considered them part of the marxist movement. Your "argument" is both childish and untrue.
Rather unfitting for someone claiming to be a marxist.

RED DAVE
28th September 2011, 18:08
And let me be blunt: do you justify the murder of the Vietnamese Trotskyist leadership by the Vietnamese Stalinists?
Of course. In Albania the forces of national liberation did the same. You regard "Stalinists" as enemies of the revolution, whereas we regard Trotskyists as such. Fair's fair.The difference is, motherfucker, we don't go around murdering other leftists in cold blood.

What makes you a Marxist and not a justifier of run-of-the mill murder? And we know what the results of Vietnamese Stalinist politics: full-blown capitalism in Vietnam. So what was done by the Vietnamese Stalinists was murder for capitalism.

RED DAVE

thesadmafioso
28th September 2011, 18:13
Yeah, our idea of dealing with Stalinist degeneration from the idea of socialism involves more open debate along the lines of Leninist democratic centralism than it does indiscriminate murder though. I hardly think it fair to compare the socialist spirit of Trotsky to the brutish despotism of Stalin given such massive discrepancies in political thought and behavior.

Crux
28th September 2011, 18:16
Well, I called you a "Trotskyite ideologue" and I was referring to the posting of the article to upset Stalinists rather than the article itself as "nonsense".

I understand the importance of revisiting the history of our movement and understanding what went wrong but posting a clearly biased Trotskyist account of the events that occurred in Vietnam won't help us. I'm not a Stalinist, I'm just tired of your irrelevant tendency whining about how Stalinists betrayed you again and again - as if that's the reason no Trotskyist groups have ever been successful - I think you should analyze the flaws in Trotskyist tactics instead of using Stalinists as scapegoats.

Haha. Oh boy. The article is not written by a trotskyist. Ergo he does not have a "trotskyist bias". This is a piece of history of the revolutionary and anti-imperialist movement in Indochina that is relatively unknown. Thus I posted it. Not to upset the stalintrolls.

I suggest you learn to read or, if unable, grace another thread with your presence. As I noted the main flaw in the trotskyist tactic in this case was not resisting the stalinists physically when they started rounding up trotskyist, as well as using the influence of the trotskyist leaders in the worker's movement to drive out and ddefeat the stalinists both politically, and when it came to that, physically. Then of course there is the matter of the different perspectives on the national liberation struggle, where the stalinists strived to ally with the "national bourguisie" as well as the brittish and the french "Popular Front" government. But nothing of that got through to you did it?

Nothing Human Is Alien
28th September 2011, 18:17
I think you should analyze the flaws in Trotskyist tactics instead of using Stalinists as scapegoats.From the point of view of the "Vietnamese Trotskyists" the main flaw in their "Trotskyist tactics" in Vietnam seems to be that they voluntarily handed over their guns and accepted their arrests, instead of fighting back.

"We conducted ourselves as true revolutionary militants. We let ourselves be arrested [by Duong Bach Mai, 'Communist' police head -- NHIA] without using violence against the police, even though we were more numerous and all well armed. They took our machine guns and automatic pistols. They sacked our office, breaking furniture, ripping our flags, stealing the typewriters and burning all our papers." - Account by International Communist League

By orders of the 'Communists,' the leaders of the International Communist League and the members of La Lutte (the other "Trotskyist" group) were rounded up and killed.

A Marxist Historian
28th September 2011, 18:19
Indeed the author does not seem to be a trotskyist, which would render som non-partisanship ( which also makes the "trotskyite ideolouge" quip even more embarressing for it's author) vis a vis his descripion of the trotskyist movement in vietnam, who was a major force in the vietnamese working class, just speaking electorally taking 80% of the votes in Saigon is no small feat.
If that is his point, so be it, I do not agree with that. However that is not how I read it, but rather as a reminder to the trotskyist groups who had taken to forgetting their own movements history in Vietnam. Defending a state against imperialist agression and defending the regime is not one and the same, given that you designate Vietnam statecapitalist I would suppose you are aware of this.

It's a very useful and objective account. Somewhat surprising, as I. Milton Sachs was indeed a right wing CIA anti-Communist who supported the US side in the Vietnam War. But I guess he thought any stick to beat Ho was useful, and telling the truth can be more useful for a propagandist than lying.

Even Hitler understood this. Thus you had the the Katyn Forest massacre of Polish officers by the Soviet secret police. First revealed to the world by the Nazis, who actually did a pretty good job of documenting it. Most people thought it was just all Nazi propaganda and that the Nazis had killed all those officers themselves. Turned out in the end that the Nazis were telling the absolute truth and Stalin was the liar.

-M.H.-

Nothing Human Is Alien
28th September 2011, 18:23
Of course. In Albania the forces of national liberation did the same. You regard "Stalinists" as enemies of the revolution, whereas we regard Trotskyists as such. Fair's fair.At least you're honest.

The main difference of course is that Trotsky's followers have historically opposed any violence between leftists (which they group under the rubric of "workers movement"). Their slogan is "Against violence in the workers movement, (http://www.pathfinderpress.com/s.nl/it.A/id.732/.f)" see also here (http://www.icl-fi.org/english/leaflets/oldsite/2003/sgj-statement.htm), etc.

That's one of the reasons the ICL gave up without a fight.

Of course neither the "Trotskyist" or "Stalinist" wings represent the self-emancipation of the working class. And both are fine with state violence against actual workers. But the point remains.

Who?
28th September 2011, 18:27
Haha. Oh boy. The article is not written by a trotskyist. Ergo he does not have a "trotskyist bias". This is a piece of history of the revolutionary and anti-imperialist movement in Indochina that is relatively unknown. Thus I posted it. Not to upset the stalintrolls.

I suggest you learn to read or, if unable, grace another thread with your presence. As I noted the main flaw in the trotskyist tactic in this case was not resisting the stalinists physically when they started rounding up trotskyist, as well as using the influence of the trotskyist leaders in the worker's movement to drive out and ddefeat the stalinists both politically, and when it came to that, physically. Then of course there is the matter of the different perspectives on the national liberation struggle, where the stalinists strived to ally with the "national bourguisie" as well as the brittish and the french "Popular Front" government. But nothing of that got through to you did it?

Right, right, let me fix that for you. For the sake of clarity.

"I understand the importance of revisiting the history of our movement and understanding what went wrong but posting a clearly biased anti-communist account of the events that occurred in Vietnam won't help us."

Is that better?

Grow up, Stalinist tactics have proven to be more successful than Trotskyist tactics. That's just a fact.

Edit: It's certainly not "relatively unknown" I'm sure most members of this board know of the Stalinist betrayal in Vietnam.

Nothing Human Is Alien
28th September 2011, 18:29
I hardly think it fair to compare the socialist spirit of Trotsky to the brutish despotism of Stalin given such massive discrepancies in political thought and behavior.

"The Workers' Opposition has come out with dangerous slogans. They have mad a fetish of democratic principles. They have places the workers' right to elect representatives above the party, as it were, as if the party were not entitled to assert its dictatorship even if that dictatorship temporarily clashed with the passing moods of the workers' democracy .... It is necessary to create among us the awareness of the revolutionary birthright of the party. The party is obliged to maintain its dictatorship, regardless of temporary wavering in the spontaneous moods of the masses, regardless of the temporary vacillations even in the working class. This awareness is for us the indispensable unifying elements. The dictatorship does not base itself at every given moment on the formal principles of a workers' democracy...." - Trotsky, on page 509 of the Vintage Edition (1965). The footnote for this quote is Desyatyi Syezd RKP, pp. 192.

"We are now heading towards the type of labour [he stated] that is socially regulated on the basis of an economic plan, obligatory for the whole country, compulsory for every worker. This is the basis of socialism.... The militarisation of labour, in this fundamental sense of which I have spoken, is the indispensable basic method for the organisation of our labour forces.... Is it true that compulsory labour is always unproductive?.... This is the most wretched and miserable liberal prejudice: chattel slavery too was productive.... Compulsory serf labour did not grow out of the feudal lords' ill-will. It was a progressive phenomenon." On page 501 of the same edition. The foot note indicates it was made in a report to the Third All-Russian Congress of Trade Unions. The source given is [I]Tretii Vserossiskii Syezd Profsoyuzow pp 87-96.

"The working class cannot be left wandering all over Russia. They must be thrown here and there, appointed, commanded, just like soldiers. Compulsion of labour will reach the highest degree of intensity during the transition from capitalism to socialism. Deserters from labour ought to be formed into punitive battalions or put into concentration camps." - Trotsky

Nothing Human Is Alien
28th September 2011, 18:30
Grow up, Stalinist tactics have proven to be more succesful than Trotskyist tactics. That's just a fact.

What are Stalinist tactics, and where have they been "succesful?" [sic]

Crux
28th September 2011, 18:37
Book review: Revolutionaries They Could Not Break by Ngo Van
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By Laurence Coates http://www.socialistalternative.org/graphics/spacer.gif
Most histories of the struggle against French colonial rule in Vietnam reflect the Stalinist traditions of the Hanoi regime, and ignore or slander the heroic role of the adherents of Leon Trotsky and the Fourth International. Ngo Van’s book, based on his own experiences as a young Trotskyist in French occupied Indochina (the colonial name for Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia), helps set the record straight. It’s a well-researched, inspiring, but ultimately tragic account.
In the 1930s, despite repeated arrests and imprisonment, the Trotskyists built a mass base in Cochin China (southern Vietnam), especially in Saigon (Ho Chi Minh City), leading numerous strikes and winning elections to the city council. As a measure of the mass following they built, a street in Saigon was named after one of the murdered Trotskyist leaders, Ta thu Thau (1906-1945). It was renamed following the unification of Vietnam under the Stalinists in 1975, ”but the Saigonese still call it Duong Ta thu Thau”, explains the author.


The Trotskysists faced vicious attacks from the French authorities and the Stalinist leaders of the Communist Party. In 1945, as the Stalinists consolidated their hold on the independence movement, hundreds of Trotskyist militants were massacred, slandered as ”traitors” and ”fascist agents” in a manner reminiscent of the Spanish civil war. To make matters worse, because of their mistaken position of tail-ending Stalinist leaders like Ho Chi Minh – the founder of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (North Vietnam) – and Mao in China, the post-war leaders of the Fourth International played down the attrocities committed against their own comrades. One of these leaders, Michel Pablo, told the Chinese Trotskyist Peng Shuzhi that, ”compared to the achievements of Mao Zedong’s revolution, the arrest of a few hundred Trotskyists is insignificant”.


Early years
The brutal realities of French colonial rule provided a fertile ground for the growth of communist ideas in Indochina, in the aftermath of the Russian Revolution of 1917. The first communist activists were recruited among emigres, mainly in France. One of these early recruits was Ho Chi Minh, otherwise known as Nguyen ai Quoc (Nguyen the Patriot) who became a founding member of the Communist Party of Indochina (PCI) in 1929. Ho, unlike the future Trotskyists, remained in exile until the end of the Second World War. He stood on the right within the communist movement, supporting Stalin’s bureaucratic counterrevolution within the Soviet Union and the ”Comintern” (Communist International).


Ho’s articles in the communist press stressed nationalism rather than socialism, and even glorified the ”heroes of the Annamite [Vietnamese] race”. Repelled by the crude nationalism of the party leaders, and Stalin's frenzied chase after alliances with bourgeois governments, a layer of communist militants in Indochina gravitated towards the internationalism and principled class politics of Trotsky and the Left Opposition. This especially after the bloody defeat of the Chinese Revolution in 1927, wholly due to Stalin’s policy of tail-ending the nationalist party, Koumintang (KMT).

The Stalinists in Indochina learned nothing from the Chinese experience. They too wanted to strip the anti-imperialist struggle of any social content, refusing to raise demands such as nationalisation and workers’ control of the factories, arguing this would alienate the small native capitalist class. Later, the PCI even dropped bourgeois democratic demands such as land to the peasants, arguing this would alienate the Vietnamese landowners. This popular front approach – unity of both exploited and exploiters on a 'minimum' i.e. bourgeois program – was taken to such lengths that in 1941 the PCI transformed itself into the Vietminh, a long defunct nationalist group.


Working class and peasantry
The ideological divide between Stalinism and Trotskysim was reflected in two different approaches to party building. The Trotskyists built mainly among the small urban working class and coolies, particularly in Saigon, while the Stalinists, whose leaders were students trained in Moscow, orientated towards the peasantry.

In 1930-32, the PCI led tens of thousands of landless peasants and day-labourers in struggle against the iniquitous poll tax of the French authorities, but as Ngo points out, ”could not, and did not try to, launch an accompanying movement in the towns”.

The French Foreign Legion responded with massacres of over 10,000 peasants. Despite the movement’s heroism, the PCI leaders made serious ultra-left mistakes. This was during the Comintern’s ’Third Period’ (1928-34): a recoil from the opportunist alliances of the preceding period. Now the ”formation of soviets” and ”seizure of power” were held to be immediate tasks everywhere.

As the peasant movement subsided, the PCI suffered merciless repression, including the death from torture of the party’s general secretary, Tran Phu. Of 109 PCI militants put on trial in 1933 for ”plotting against the security of the state”, eight were sentenced to death, the rest receiving a total of 900 years hard labour.

In November 1931, the Indochinese Left Opposition was launched by Ta thu Thau and five others. Six months later they began production of a bi-monthly paper, Vo san (Proletarian). In August 1932, 65 members and sympathisers of the Vo san group were arrested for ”subversive activity”. Whereas the mass trial of PCI members generated considerable publicity in France, the Stalinist daily L’Humanité maintained a stony silence over the fate of the Indochinese Trotskyists. In Saigon, however, those Stalinists and Trotskyists still at liberty collaborated, fielding a joint ’workers’ panel’, together with anarchists and a well-known nationalist, in the municipal elections. On the very day that eight PCI leaders were sentenced to death – 7 May 1933 – two candidates from the ’workers’ panel’ (a Stalinist and a nationalist) were elected. The city council itself was a powerless body, but the election had a huge political impact coming in the midst of massive repression. The election of both councillors was invalidated by the French authorities three months later!


United front?
This episode led to a lengthy period of cooperation between the Stalinists and Trotskyists in Saigon. For marxists, the united front is a practical agreement between mass organisations rather than small propaganda groups. Lenin’s advice was ’march seperately, strike together’ – unity in action, but no mixing of political banners.

The Saigon Trotskyists made mistakes in this respect, but unfortunately this is not sufficiently clarified in Ngo’s book. Following the 1933 elections, Thau and the leaders of the Left Opposition extended their alliance with the Stalinists, agreeing to a joint weekly paper, La Lutte (The Struggle), and organisation. In the process, they made impermissible political concessions, agreeing to ”restrict themselves to a paper for the defence of the workers and peasants without broaching the questions of Stalinism and Trotskyism”.


La Lutte was to all intents and purposes a joint party, rather than a ’united front’ – a party which lacked a clear marxist program. In the 1935 municipal elections, four La Lutte candidates were elected to Saigon council, two Stalinists, one Trotskyist (Thau) and a Trotskyist sympathiser. Ngo records that, ”the forceful speeches of the four ’communists’ in the municipal council made a great impact and aroused lively popular sympathy as well as raising morale.” The four were arrested six months later for supporting a strike by horse-drawn taxi drivers and, again, their mandates were revoked.


These successes notwithstanding, the compromises in respect of program and analysis upon which this work rested were unnacceptable from the standpoint of a marxist organisation. In 1935, for example, the paper was silent over the political bombshell of Stalin’s non-aggression pact with France’s right-wing Republican government. In August 1936, it was silent over the Moscow trials and Stalin’s slaughter of the Bolshevik old guard. Evidently, the Trotskyist leaders thought it possible to seperate international issues from their day-to-day work. Their failure immediately to understand the deadly significance of the Moscow trials, was a warning of events to come – in 1945 the Stalinists introduced the same methods into Indochina. This led to a split in the ranks of the Indochinese Trotskyists, with a minority who opposed the concessions to Stalinism forming the League of International Communists in 1935.


1936
In May 1936, the French Socialist Party leader Leon Blum led a Popular Front government to power, which included the Communist Party. Instead of renouncing imperialist domination, Blum’s government proposed merely to ”renovate the colonial system”. In yet another political backflip, as Ngo recounts, ”The PCI marched in step with the French Communist Party: it dropped the struggle for national liberation and agrarian reform from its programme, and eliminated from its speeches... the expressions ’class struggle’ and ’French imperialism’.”

This betrayal created an enormous opening for Trotskyism. Belatedly, in December 1936, the Trotskyist majority of La Lutte attacked the Paris government over its failure to lift repression in Indochina. Denouncing this as ”Trotskyisation”, the Stalinists withdrew from the joint organisation in 1937. The split was a turning point in the growth of Trotskyist ideas among the Vietnamese working class.

Inspired by the example of the French workers, strikes erupted across Indochina in 1937 in food-processing, the cotton industry, coal mines, railways and the docks. As Ngo explains, ”In the course of this movement, at first spontaneous and then organised, workers and coolies set up action committees and strike committees under Trotskyist rather than Stalinist influence. They demanded wage rises, an eight-hour day, the legalisation of trade unions, democratic liberties and an end to brutality and fines...”

This movement, which led to some far-reaching concessions from the French authorities, saw over 600 action committees spring up over Cochin China, one-third of them under Trotskyist leadership.

The Sûreté (French secret police) noted in February 1937 that, ”The influence of the revolutionary agitators favourable to the Fourth International has grown in Cochin China, particularly in the working class milieu of Saigon-Cholon.” In July that year it added, ”The worker element has been won more by the Trotskyist party than by the PCI”.


”Defend Indochina”
As the Second World War approached the PCI leaders, under Moscow’s prompting, decreed that all questions were subordinate to the struggle against ’fascist’ Japan.

They supported the French government when it launched a militarisation drive in the colony, floating a 33 million piastre loan for the ”defence of Indochina” and seeking to conscript 20,000 Indochinese into the French army. Both issues were explosive – there had been a long and bitter history of opposition to colonial military service.

This did not stop the PCI calling on people to volunteer en masse to support ”French democracy”. As Ngo points out, ”Some people in the PCI showed such excessive zeal for the loan that they proposed dividing the 100 piastre bonds into coupons of ten piastres and five piastres accessible to the purses of the poor. Others rebelled against collaboration with the colonial regime and were suspended... Our comrades’ declarations took the opposite standpoint to that of the Stalinists: against the imperialist war, against war taxes, against the worsening of living standards”.

The Stalinists had so identified themselves with the French authorities and their austerity measures, that when the tax on a box of matches rose by half a cent it became known as the ”Third International box of matches” among workers.

The French Governor General noted that, ”While the Stalinist Communists believe... that the interests of the Annamite masses drive them closer to France... the Trotskyists... are not afraid of pushing the natives to revolt so as to turn a possible war to their advantage in order to obtain total liberation”.

The PCI’s pro-French position was punished in the municipal elections of 1939. Despite repression (all meetings were banned), three Trotskyists were elected to Saigon council whereas the Stalinists lost all their seats. News of this political body blow reached Ho Chi Minh, still in exile in China. In a chilling warning of what was to come, Ho declared, ”No reconciliation or concession is possible in relation to the Trotskyists. They must by all means be unmasked as agents of fascism; they must be politically exterminated.”

This venomous hostility towards Trotskyism flowed in part from Ho’s hopes for an accommodation with imperialism, but also from his ambition to become the Stalin of Vietnam.


World War II
In September 1939, after the outbreak of war, the Communist Party was banned in France and Indochina. Repression of both Stalinists and Trotskyists increased in Vietnam – 1,700 members of the Third and Fourth Internationals were sent to concentration camps.

The Stalin-Hitler pact (August 1939-June 1941) had seen yet another u-turn by the PCI leaders, dropping their pro-French agitation and reverting to the ”anti-imperialism” of the Third Period. When Japan landed troops in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia in September 1940, the PCI launched a reckless and ill-planned insurrection against French rule. Like the peasant rebellion of 1930-32, it was brutally crushed. An internal PCI trial blamed two regional party secretaries for the débâcle and sentenced them to death.

Meanwhile, Japan reached an agreement with the wartime Vichy regime in France, under which Indochina was occupied by Japanese troops but governed by a French collaborator regime. From China, Ho Chi Minh resurrected the nationalist Vietminh with an armed force of 500 Vietnamese emigrés, trained by the KMT who were fighting the Japanese in China. Ho’s line, as Ngo points out, ”was one of hedging, of secret diplomacy in search of state support (Chinese, Russian, American, French even); the proletariat had no place in it.”

Yet despite Ho’s opportunistic zig zags, in the power vacuum created by Japan’s defeat in the war, it was the Vietminh which emerged at the head of the independence struggle. This was due in part to the strengthened authority of the Soviet Union, the decisive political weight of the peasantry in Vietnam, but also due to the mistakes of the Trotskyist parties in the immediate aftermath of the war.


Revolutionary upsurge
As the Japanese empire imploded in August-September 1945, Indochina saw a revolutionary upsurge. In secret talks, Ho Chi Minh had accepted that France would grant independence to Vietnam only after a delay of five to ten years. This was entirely consistent with Stalin’s position, to try to prolong his wartime alliance with US, British and French imperialism.

The Indochinese Trotskyists by contrast called for mass demonstrations and the arming of the population to prevent the return of the French colonial regime.

In August 1945, outside the control of the Vietminh, 30,000 coal miners in Hongay-Campha in northern Vietnam, set up workers’ councils to manage production. They took control of public services such as railways and telegraph, sacked the old managers and applied the principle of ”equal wages for all at all levels of manual and intellectual work”. This workers’ commune lasted until November, when the Vietminh in the name of ”national unity” arrested the miners’ leaders and imposed a new heirarchy upon the area. Ho’s forces even tried to block the peasantry from taking over the land, although eventually they were forced to retreat on this.

Cochin China was the last region entered by Vietminh guerillas. Here, the Trotskyists enjoyed colossal authority especially among the Saigon workers. As Ngo points out, ”the La Lutte group organised some 18,000 militants and sympathisers. Tranh dau [the Annamite language edition of La Lutte] reappeared as a daily, with a print run of over 15,000 copies.”

On the first mass demonstration in Saigon, 21 August 1945, in which 300,000 took part, 30,000 marched behind the banners of the Fourth International with slogans like ”Arm the people” and ”For a workers’ and peasants’ government”.


Vietminh arrives
The Vietminh was wholly absent from the 21 August demonstration, reflecting its lack of a base in Saigon. That very evening the Vietminh descended on the city from the surrounding countryside, and set about circumventing the elements of workers’ control which existed, proclaiming itself the new ”democratic government” in Cochin China. Loudspeaker vans toured the city declaring, ”Everyone behind the Vietminh”. Still virtually unknown in Saigon at this point, it introduced itself in a leaflet:

”The Vietminh has been closely linked with the Allies in fighting the French [!] and the Japanese. We are the friends of Russia; China is with us heart and soul; America dreams of trade and not of conquest; in England, Atlee is Prime Minister and leans to the left. It will be easy for us to negotiate.”


While peddling the illusion of a swift and painless victory over the French, the Stalinists sought to obliterate any outlets for independent mass action, such as the workers’ committees. On arrival, the Vietminh seized the central post office, police stations and other public buildings without resistance from the Japanese troops. A new mass demonstration was called for 25 August, this time under Vietminh control, to sanction its seizure of power in Saigon and the rest of the country. More than a million took part in this demonstration with tens of thousands of Vietminh supporters bussed in from the surrounding countryside. This ”so called revolution” was, as one of the Trotskyist leaders put it, ”carried out behind the backs of the people”. Already at this demonstration, Stalinist leaders denounced ”agitators and provocateurs” – a veiled reference to the Trotskyists and the revolutionary workers who looked to them. But in this initial period the Vietminh was forced to tread carefully in its dealings with the Trotskyists. Trotskyist agitation for democratic workers’ and peasants’ committees and the arming of the population had struck a powerful chord among the Saigonese.


Offensive against Trotskyism
Unfortunately, in the midst of these dramatic events, the leaders of La Lutte, the biggest Trotskyist force, reverted to their mistaken ’united front’ position from the previous decade, only this time with far more serious consequences. The Vietminh’s putsch in Cochin China had succeeded because in the initial period the masses could not distinguish between its rhetoric about ”independence or death” and its actual policy of backsliding under pressure from imperialism, the Soviet bureaucracy and the domestic landlord-capitalist class. With correct policies and tactics, as a result of the experience of the masses, a powerful revolutionary opposition could have been built up in the ensuing weeks and months. The hundreds of action committees which had sprung into existence had the potential to become an alternative centre of power for the revolutionary workers and peasants of Saigon and its environs – but for this a clear program and firm leadership were needed.


But while the La Lutte leaders eschewed cooperation with the smaller ’League’, their entire orientation was towards an alliance with the Vietminh, which in practise meant a Stalinist veto over their own actions. They negotiated, for example, ”permission” to organise a Trotskyist militia, subordinated to the command structure of the Vietminh. Their Annamite language daily, Tranh dau, seems to have ceased publication at this time. Whereas, in the 1930s, the International Secretariat of the Fourth International had taken up the opportunist errors of the organisation in Indonchina, with Trotsky dead (murdered by a Stalinist agent in 1940), the confusion of the Indochinese Trotskyists was only compounded by the mistakes of the international leadership.

As one former young Trotskyist recalls:



”Carried away by their enthusiasm, and by the favourable political situation at the time, our comrades had forgotten all their distrust of the Stalinists. From then on our comrades slowed down the work of setting up soviets in the city, of turning the factories into fortresses, and of preparing for a civil war. The militants of the October group [League of International Communists – Ed] only weakly criticised the La Lutte group.”

In the events that followed, the militias of both Trotskyist organisations allowed themselves to be disarmed by the Stalinists without a fight, even when they enjoyed superior force of arms. They rejected – probably fearing the Stalinists’ reaction – an offer of arms and cooperation from the nationalist religious sect, Cao dai, which had a mass peasant following and was itself a target of Vietminh repression. On condition, however, that the Trotskyists maintained complete political and organisational independence from these religious oddballs, a practical agreement relating only to self-defence would have been legitimate.
At this time, Ta thu Thau went on a mysterious mission to the north of the country, perhaps to try to meet Ho Chi Minh. He was arrested and shot by the Vietminh. As a result of Thau’s spirited defence in front of the Stalinists’ kangaroo court, the firing squad refused to obey orders and it was left to the ’procecuting attorney’ to shoot him in the back.


The Saigon Uprising
From 6 September until the return of French troops in November 1945, a small contingent of British and Indian troops was installed in Saigon under General Gracey. When they arrived, they found Saigon festooned in Vietminh banners saying, ’Welcome to our Allies’, alongside the flags of the four allied powers (USA, KMT-led China, Britain and the Soviet Union) and the new Vietnamese flag. Gracey later recalled, ”I was welcomed on arrival by Vietminh. I promptly kicked them out.”

The day after the British arrived, the Vietminh ordered the disarmament of ”non-government organisations”. The campaign against the Trotskyists began in earnest. The Stalinist Co giai phong (Banner of Liberation) declared that, ”the Trotskyist bands must be put down immediately.” It stated:



”...they demand the arming of the people – which frightens the British mission. They demand the full carrying out of the tasks of the bourgeois democratic revolution (essentially the agrarian revolution, distribution of rice-fields and land to the peasants) with the aim of splitting the National Front and proking the opposition of the landowners to the revolution.”

But as the British moved to dismantle the Vietminh’s fledgling regime in Saigon, the Vietminh ¬– under growing mass pressure – were forced to act. On 17 September they called a general strike which paralysed the city. On 21 September, Gracey declared martial law, banning the carrying of arms and closing down the Annamite press. British soldiers seized Saigon’s prison, freeing the Vietminh’s French prisoners (wartime collaborators), while handing Trotskyist prisoners over to the French Sûreté.
On 23 September, British troops accompanied by racist French colonial settlers seized control of the police stations and other government buildings from the Vietminh, triggering an uprising the following night, during which barricades were erected in the city’s poorer quarters. In the pitched battles that followed, the Trotskyist militias, joined by revolutionary Japanese deserters and nationalists, fought heroically. Several hundred Trotskyists lost their lives. The Vietminh, meanwhile, urged the population to disperse to the countryside and, ”remain calm as the government hopes to begin negotiations”. The Trotskyists then, presumably under orders from Vietminh military commanders, also decamped to the countryside, abandoning their positions among Saigon’s working class. In practise, this meant the dissolution of the Trotskyist organisations. In the countryside they were disarmed and, in most cases, slaughtered by the Vietminh.


In the events of September 1945 in Cochin China there are analogies with Barcelona in May 1937, where the future course of the Spanish revolution was decided. The Trotskyists in Saigon, despite their key role on the barricades and in the workers’ districts, saw themselves as left critics of the Vietminh rather than an alternative leadership of the Saigon masses.


The French return
On 2 October a truce was negotiated between the French government and the Vietminh’s area committee for Saigon. At around the same time, the leaders of the La Lutte group were executed, accused of ”giving the enemy a pretext for invading”. As in Spain, the Stalinists directed their blows, not against reaction, but against the revolutionary left-wing and every attempt to advance socialist demands.

In November, when the British handed over control of Saigon to the French, the Vietminh again abandoned the city. As Ngo comments, ”By the end of October 1945, the workers’ movement was dissipated. Most of the Trotskyist leaders had been killed. The nationalists, too, suffered repression at the hands of the Vietminh. This opened the way for the return of French imperialism... ”


Vietnam was divided at the 16th parallel, the south under French control and the north under the Vietminh. In the north, Ho Chi Minh accepted the presence of allied troops – first KMT-Chinese and then French – while he tried to negotiate with France. Even after losing half the country, Ho had not given up on negotiations! The Vietnamese Stalinists were eventually rescued from the mess their own policies had created by an event they had neither expected nor supported – the Chinese Revolution of 1949. This social earthquake altered the balance of power in Asia, dramatically raising the political cost of direct imperialist occupation.


With the history of Vietnam once again a major talking point, Ngo Van’s book fills an important gap. While it falls short of a thorough analysis of the mistakes of Trotskyist policy and tactics in this period, its description of the baleful role of Stalinism in Vietnam and the Trotskyists’ fight to direct the independence struggle along genuine socialist and internationalist lines is rich in lessons for today.

HEAD ICE
28th September 2011, 18:44
^^^ that guy Ngo Van Xuyet has written a lot of good stuff on the Vietnamese class movement as a direct participant.

He later embraced council communism and rejected fully the concept of "national liberation."

Crux
28th September 2011, 18:44
Right, right, let me fix that for you. For the sake of clarity.

"I understand the importance of revisiting the history of our movement and understanding what went wrong but posting a clearly biased anti-communist account of the events that occurred in Vietnam won't help us."

Is that better?

Grow up, Stalinist tactics have proven to be more successful than Trotskyist tactics. That's just a fact.

Edit: It's certainly not "realtively unknown" I'm sure most members of this board know of the Stalinist betrayal in Vietnam.
So you are of the "the trots were really secret fascists" school of thought? Give me a break. If you can't form any coherent argument against the text, go play elsewhere.

Uh yes, I do think the size and influence of the trotskyist movement and the betrayal of the vietnamese stalinists is relatively unkown even on this forum.

Who?
28th September 2011, 18:45
What are Stalinist tactics, and where have they been "succesful?" [sic]

Making fun of typos, how mature.

What are Marxist-Leninist, Maoist and Hoxhaist (the tendencies generally considered "Stalinist") tactics and where have they been successful?

PPWs have proven to be successful in the 3rd world and 1st world Marxist-Leninist tactics have proven to be more successful than those of their Trotskyist counterparts, as you can see based on the sheer size of their organizations the support they receive from the working class.

You'd be a fool (which I'm not putting past you) to deny "Stalinist" progress when compared to other Leninist trends.

But I don't want to have this conversation, like I said; I'm not a Stalinist. I'm just tired of the Trotskyist whining. It irritates me beyond belief.

Who?
28th September 2011, 18:48
So you are of the "the trots were really secret fascists" school of thought? Give me a break. If you can't form any coherent argument against the text, go play elsewhere.

Uh yes, I do think the size and influence of the trotskyist movement and the betrayal of the vietnamese stalinists is relatively unkown even on this forum.

No, I think Trotskyism is incredibly flawed but I don't think you guys were secret fascists. I also happen to think all forms of Stalinism are even MORE flawed. But they don't whine nearly as much. ;)

Crux
28th September 2011, 19:18
No, I think Trotskyism is incredibly flawed but I don't think you guys were secret fascists. I also happen to think all forms of Stalinism are even MORE flawed. But they don't whine nearly as much. ;)
Didn't I tell you, if you can't put forward an argument, go away? So do, your whining about "whining" is getting tiresome, and you obviously have no interest in the actual content of this thread.

Nothing Human Is Alien
28th September 2011, 19:25
PPWs have proven to be successful in the 3rd world and 1st world Marxist-Leninist tactics have proven to be more successful than those of their Trotskyist counterparts,

Successful in what? Did they eliminate capitalism? Eliminate imperialism? What exactly are you calling success?


as you can see based on the sheer size of their organizations the support they receive from the working class.

In that case the Democrats in the U.S. and Labour in the UK are the most successful of all.

Crux
28th September 2011, 20:02
I think, taking Vietnam as an example, it is clear that the trotskyists had more support than the stalnists among the working class. As for the tactical questions I think history has shown it quite decisevely. Rehashed menshevism is still menshevism, i e the alliance with the "national borguisie" that the stalinists propose.

DaringMehring
29th September 2011, 00:31
Of course. In Albania the forces of national liberation did the same. You regard "Stalinists" as enemies of the revolution, whereas we regard Trotskyists as such. Fair's fair.

I think Stalinists are wrong on a number of counts some of which are contained in NHIA's earlier quotes. But I wouldn't exterminate them. I don't think "fair's fair" has been established at all. You have earlier said that you consider Vietnam was "state capitalist" and yet even in that case you're willing to write a blank check for the state capitalists to exterminate other tendencies. I don't understand but I thank Marx that similar-minded Stalinists are no longer in control of anything so I only have to worry about the bourgeoisie.

Devrim
29th September 2011, 01:04
^^^ that guy Ngo Van Xuyet has written a lot of good stuff on the Vietnamese class movement as a direct participant.

He later embraced council communism and rejected fully the concept of "national liberation."

Yes, like many of the better Trotskyists Xuyet broke with Trotskyism after the Second World War. He lived in France, where he worked with Munis, the leader of the Spanish Bolshevik Leninists, who also broke with Trotskyism, and later became a member of the ICO.

I had dinner with him (and a lot of other people) once in a restaurant in Paris in the late 1980s.

Devrim

DaringMehring
29th September 2011, 02:03
Yes, like many of the better Trotskyists Xuyet broke with Trotskyism after the Second World War. He lived in France, where he worked with Munis, the leader of the Spanish Bolshevik Leninists, who also broke with Trotskyism, and later became a member of the ICO.

I had dinner with him (and a lot of other people) once in a restaurant in Paris in the late 1980s.

Devrim

Wow that's interesting. What was his perspective then?

S.Artesian
29th September 2011, 02:28
On Vietnamese revisionism: http://ml-review.ca/aml/China/ALLIANCE27HOCHIMINH.htm

Ho wanted Hoxha to patch up relations with the USSR in the name of the "unity" of the "communist camp," so evidently he wasn't some extraordinary beacon of "Stalinism."

Of course. In Albania the forces of national liberation did the same. You regard "Stalinists" as enemies of the revolution, whereas we regard Trotskyists as such. Fair's fair.

"Fair's fair"???? Fantastic. Spoken like some 2nd rate 10th grader who needs remedial work in the actual history of the Vietnamese struggle, with the Vietnamese Big C Communists suppressing the workers in order to smooth the way for French imperialism in 1937-- so obviously national liberation was not a "principle" "self-determination" was not a programmatic demand of the Big C Communists,-- it was a phrase of opportunity, to be used and discarded solely to enhance the power of the Big C Communists.

And then again at the close of WW2 we have the Big C Communists actually dispersing the revolutionary assemblies of the workers, proclaiming from loudspeakers in Saigon that such assemblies were "illegal" as "ours is a bourgeois democratic revolution" with Big C Communists clearing the way for the restoration of French imperialism in Vietnam after the defeat of Japan.

And then there's the military assault at Ho's orders on the miners in the north who had seized the previously French=owned mines and formed... a commune of all things.

So it's not a case of "fair's fair"-- it's a case of class struggle with the Big C Communists, and our high school cheerleader, lining up with the maintenance and restoration of French imperialism.

Secondly, perhaps Ismail would care to provide evidence of Trotskyists actually hunting down and executing Big C Communists during the Vietnamese struggle? Or any other struggle for that matter? Where and when have Trotskyists aggressively "raided" workers organizations, actions, demonstrations to assassinate Stalinists?

All real revolutionists should keep in mind just how much the Stalinists have invested in suppressing proletarian revolution, to the point of murdering those who don't tail their tailing the bourgeoisie, and any revolutionist who does not unite with those prepared to defend themselves from such attacks is an idiot or a masochist or both. No point repeating the mistakes of others.

Keep in mind the explicit statement of program-- killing "Trotskyists"-- and the actual history of breaking strikes, and allying with imperialists, killing workers, suppressing peasant seizures of land, that is the reality behind so called "national liberation."

Devrim
29th September 2011, 05:20
Wow that's interesting. What was his perspective then?

If you mean when I met him, I have no idea. He was at the other end of a long table in a restaurant. I talked with other people. I was introduced to him, and later said goodnight, which is just about all my French can stretch to anyway.

If you mean in general, he was a council communist. There are details about it in the last two chapters of the American version of his book, which is online here (http://www.bopsecrets.org/vietnam/index.htm). It includes a few short articles he wrote in the late 1960s, including one about the May 68 strikes at the factory where he worked.

The ICO, which he was involved with was a split from Socialisme ou Barbarie, a brief explanation of its history can be found here (http://libcom.org/library/communism-france-sob-ico-echanges) on Libcom.

Devrim

S.Artesian
29th September 2011, 17:19
Personally, given Ismail's stated endorsement of murdering political militants who don't swallow the Stalinist bullshit, I think Ismail should be banned, along with anyone else singing homages to icepicks, slave labor, etc.

Ismail
29th September 2011, 17:44
Personally, given Ismail's stated endorsement of murdering political militants who don't swallow the Stalinist bullshit, I think Ismail should be banned, along with anyone else singing homages to icepicks, slave labor, etc.I don't "sing homages" to icepicks or "slave labor." Tito was a political militant as well, doesn't mean he wasn't a reactionary who later allied with US imperialism, among other things. I don't support "murdering" anyone anymore than Trotsky supported "murdering" Makhno or what have you.

I support the emancipation of mankind through Marxist-Leninist struggle. You don't; you're not even a Trotskyist. You're just an ultra-leftist, the same kind Lenin ridiculed.

RED DAVE
29th September 2011, 18:07
I don't support "murdering" anyone anymore than Trotsky supported "murdering" Makhno or what have you.You're a lying motherfucker.


And let me be blunt: do you justify the murder of the Vietnamese Trotskyist leadership by the Vietnamese Stalinists?
Of course.(emph added)

RED DAVE

Ismail
29th September 2011, 18:47
"Do you justify the murder of Makhno's bands by the Bolsheviks?"
"Of course."
"YOU EVIL MURDERER!!!1"

See? I can do the same thing. I can also get a bourgeois source to show how the Bolsheviks "betrayed" Makhno.

“In January 1920 [Trotsky] received a telegram from the Ukrainian Anarchist military leader Nestor Makhno, explaining why he, Makhno, was not willing to go to the Polish Front. While continuing ‘peace talks’ with Makhno, Trotsky maintained contact with the Revolutionary Military Committee through Stalin, to whom he cabled: ‘Do you think it would be possible to encircle Makhno right away and carry out a complete liquidation? It would probably be possible to destroy his artillery base if we sent some entirely reliable people there posing as anarchists. Makhno uses hardly any security measures, so we could most probably destroy his ammunition stores.’ Stalin replied: ‘The encirclement of Makhno was started a few days ago and will be accomplished by the ninth. The order [for him] to move against the Poles was issued with the intention of collecting extra material against Makhno.’ Thus, even while Makhno was still an ally, his termination was being planned and executed.”
(Dimitri Volkogonov. Trotsky: The Eternal Revolutionary. New York: Free Press, 1996. p. 158.)

Edit: Considering I'm a Marxist-Leninist and thus naturally regard Trotskyism, Anarchism, "Left-Communism" etc. as objectively anti-communist ideologies, there wasn't much else I could have replied with. Here's a sample of alternatives:

Maoist: "I do not agree. As MAO ZEDONG said, Stalin failed to correctly understand the MASS LINE. Because of this and the DOGMATISM of the Indochinese Communist Party grave errors were carried out because the ICP did not rely on the masses. Only by Stalin adhering to MAO ZEDONG THOUGHT could this have been avoided through the two-line struggle of the hundred flowers of the New Democracy."
Liberal: "No."

Can't see much else.

S.Artesian
29th September 2011, 19:11
I don't "sing homages" to icepicks or "slave labor." Tito was a political militant as well, doesn't mean he wasn't a reactionary who later allied with US imperialism, among other things. I don't support "murdering" anyone anymore than Trotsky supported "murdering" Makhno or what have you.

I support the emancipation of mankind through Marxist-Leninist struggle. You don't; you're not even a Trotskyist. You're just an ultra-leftist, the same kind Lenin ridiculed.


Yes you do. You support a policy of killing proletarian militants who don't follow the official CP line. That's what you do. That is the history of the struggle of the Vietnamese workers that you won't engage and respond to, preferring to hide behind the vacuous slogans of "national liberation" and "self-determination" which were used to subordinate class struggle.

What you don't do is support the "emancipation of mankind through "Marxist-Leninist" struggle." You support tailing the bourgeoisie, restoring and extending the rule of imperiaism, engaging in "strategies" that extend a war some 30 years costing millions of lives, and then flip the struggle safely back into the camp of imperialism with 20 years [for Vietnam] or 74 years [for the fSU]

Right, I don't support the emancipation of mankind through "Marxist-Leninist" ideological proclamations. I support it through class struggle, through the self-emancipation of the proletariat, and through workers defense against "Marxist-Leninist" goons and strikebreakers, like you.

Ismail
29th September 2011, 19:17
You support tailing the bourgeoisie, restoring and extending the rule of imperiaism, engaging in "strategies" that extend a war some 30 years costing millions of lives, and then flip the struggle safely back into the camp of imperialism with 20 years [for Vietnam] or 74 years [for the fSU] So you're blaming the Vietnamese for the Vietnam War and "extending" it? Really?

Also Ho Chi Minh, as noted, failed to break from the Soviet orbit. Vietnam followed the Soviet revisionists and Ho tried to get Hoxha to "unite" with the USSR, supposedly under a common "anti-imperialist" cause.

RED DAVE
29th September 2011, 19:53
Considering I'm a Marxist-Leninist and thus naturally regard Trotskyism, Anarchism, "Left-Communism" etc. as objectively anti-communist ideologies, there wasn't much else I could have replied.You might have, now I know this is hard for a Stalinist, but you just might have, taken a long look at your ideology and asked yourself some questions about justifying mass murder of comrades. But that's a little rough for you, I know.

RED DAVE

Crux
29th September 2011, 20:16
"Do you justify the murder of Makhno's bands by the Bolsheviks?"
"Of course."
"YOU EVIL MURDERER!!!1"

See? I can do the same thing. I can also get a bourgeois source to show how the Bolsheviks "betrayed" Makhno.

“In January 1920 [Trotsky] received a telegram from the Ukrainian Anarchist military leader Nestor Makhno, explaining why he, Makhno, was not willing to go to the Polish Front. While continuing ‘peace talks’ with Makhno, Trotsky maintained contact with the Revolutionary Military Committee through Stalin, to whom he cabled: ‘Do you think it would be possible to encircle Makhno right away and carry out a complete liquidation? It would probably be possible to destroy his artillery base if we sent some entirely reliable people there posing as anarchists. Makhno uses hardly any security measures, so we could most probably destroy his ammunition stores.’ Stalin replied: ‘The encirclement of Makhno was started a few days ago and will be accomplished by the ninth. The order [for him] to move against the Poles was issued with the intention of collecting extra material against Makhno.’ Thus, even while Makhno was still an ally, his termination was being planned and executed.”
(Dimitri Volkogonov. Trotsky: The Eternal Revolutionary. New York: Free Press, 1996. p. 158.)

Edit: Considering I'm a Marxist-Leninist and thus naturally regard Trotskyism, Anarchism, "Left-Communism" etc. as objectively anti-communist ideologies, there wasn't much else I could have replied with. Here's a sample of alternatives:

Maoist: "I do not agree. As MAO ZEDONG said, Stalin failed to correctly understand the MASS LINE. Because of this and the DOGMATISM of the Indochinese Communist Party grave errors were carried out because the ICP did not rely on the masses. Only by Stalin adhering to MAO ZEDONG THOUGHT could this have been avoided through the two-line struggle of the hundred flowers of the New Democracy."
Liberal: "No."

Can't see much else.
I am sorry, comrade, but political debate cannot be reduced to sloganizing or "I'd have you killed". It's curious that you so far has failed to adress the actual article, while the betrayal of the stalinists is apparent, your justification is absolutly empty. If you do not genuinely believe the ICL and the Struggle group were japanese spies how can you justify their murder? Especially given their history in the working class movement. And what about the diverging political perspectives, vis a vis Brittain and the Popular Front government in France? Or are you unable to debate politically?

Welshy
29th September 2011, 20:19
Edit: Considering I'm a Marxist-Leninist and thus naturally regard Trotskyism, Anarchism, "Left-Communism" etc. as objectively anti-communist ideologies, there wasn't much else I could have replied with.



I think once you naturally start taking positions because of your tendency, you have turned your back to rational thought and made your tendency into a religion.

S.Artesian
29th September 2011, 20:49
So you're blaming the Vietnamese for the Vietnam War and "extending" it? Really?

Also Ho Chi Minh, as noted, failed to break from the Soviet orbit. Vietnam followed the Soviet revisionists and Ho tried to get Hoxha to "unite" with the USSR, supposedly under a common "anti-imperialist" cause.

Uh, uh, uh... no answering your attempt to flip the script until you engage with the the original issues:

Did the Big C Vietnamese Stalinists suppress workers' revolts against French exploitation in order to protect the "Popular Front" in France?

Did the Big C Vietnamese Stalinist further suppress workers' and peasants' organizations, demonstrations, activities at the close of WW2 and thus facilitate the restoration of French imperialism?

And this all took place when your Great gravedigger of revolution was still alive and in the saddle.

Deal with the historical reality, not your ideological-babbling bullshit.

Ismail
29th September 2011, 20:55
I am sorry, comrade, but political debate cannot be reduced to sloganizing or "I'd have you killed". It's curious that you so far has failed to adress the actual article, while the betrayal of the stalinists is apparent, your justification is absolutly empty. If you do not genuinely believe the ICL and the Struggle group were japanese spies how can you justify their murder? Especially given their history in the working class movement. And what about the diverging political perspectives, vis a vis Brittain and the Popular Front government in France? Or are you unable to debate politically?I don't see much room for debate here, or maybe because I'm not really up for debate. Any discussion about the French Popular Front will inevitably steer us towards the Spanish Popular Front which will steer us towards "Stalinism" and how it ruins everything which will in turn be used to show how "Stalinists" betrayed everything.

For the record I don't see what the ICP did in-re national liberation as being wrong. If someone wanted to do so they can easily assemble a lot of happy talks during the national liberation war (1941-1944) between Enver Hoxha and both British and American officials about how Albania wants to be a friendly democratic country that will not collectivize farmland and suchlike. In fact Albanian Communists had to avowedly deny that they were, well, Communists. They instead stated they were loyal patriots, etc.

The difference is that in North Vietnam Ho Chi Minh's government, as the link to the study of Vietnamese revisionism I provided in the first page shows, did not advance much beyond this stage of uniting all objectively progressive forces, and instead with Soviet and Chinese backing promoted right-wing economic policies. In Albania, on the other hand, the Communists had complete control and at once proceeded with various reforms which obliterated the petty-bourgeoisie and landowners as a class. I don't need to elaborate on how different the paths of North Vietnam and Albania were in terms of attitude towards the national bourgeoisie (of which there basically wasn't any in Albania), etc. after the war.


Did the Big C Vietnamese Stalinists suppress workers' revolts against French exploitation in order to protect the "Popular Front" in France?Quite right. The Bolsheviks also suppressed or delayed (the latter when not in power, obviously) workers' protests and such when the need came as well. As Marxists we understand that not every single workers' strike or revolt is objectively in the service of communism just because workers happen to partake in it. Strikes, revolts, etc. can be self-defeating or, deary me, can actually result in objectively reactionary calls.


Did the Big C Vietnamese Stalinist further suppress workers' and peasants' organizations, demonstrations, activities at the close of WW2 and thus facilitate the restoration of French imperialism?Correct. This was seen as the correct strategy.


And this all took place when your Great gravedigger of revolution was still alive and in the saddle.Yes, although Stalin didn't trust Ho Chi Minh and Ho got a cold reception in Moscow while Stalin was alive. The Chinese were closer to North Vietnam until the 60's.

S.Artesian
29th September 2011, 21:16
Quite right. The Bolsheviks also suppressed or delayed (the latter when not in power, obviously) workers' protests and such when the need came as well. As Marxists we understand that not every single workers' strike or revolt is objectively in the service of communism just because workers happen to partake in it. Strikes, revolts, etc. can be self-defeating or, deary me, can actually result in objectively reactionary calls.

Not exactly similar. First, let's keep this in mind; the Bolsheviks, internally, did not suppress the soviets, the workers organizations in order to keep the PG in power.

Whatever we think of the Bolsheviks after they took power [and I'm on record as not thinking all that well of their efforts], they did not suppress the workers prior to their seizure of power.... and yeah that makes a difference.

After they took power-- yes they certainly did, and it's hardly the apotheosis of Bolshevik rule.... but that's a separate debate and has nothing to do with the issue here, of the history of the Vietnamese workers struggles.

Secondly, we're not talking about any individual, isolated, or even series of "single workers' strike or revolt" We're not talking if such individual strikes are "objectively in the service of communism just because workers happen to partake in it." We're not arguing about whether individual "Strikes, revolts, etc. can be self-defeating or, deary me, can actually result in objectively reactionary calls"-- we're talking about the concrete actions of organized workers against French imperialism, against capitalist exploitation during the midst of the Great Depression when the processes of accumulation of capital were pretty much paralyzed and without a revolution, local and international, the only alternative would be a global war of immense proportions.

We're not talking about your schoolboy abstractions; we're talking about actual conditions of capitalist reproduction, and the inability of capital to maintain itself without.... deary me, the service of the Big C Communists who were more than willing to murder, not just individuals, but class movement.

As far as deary me "objectively reactionary..." see that's exactly what you are. That's exactly what history shows us about the Big C communists, the Big S Stalinists........objectively reactionary. And that's why you should be banned. Objectively speaking.

Dzerzhinsky's Ghost
29th September 2011, 21:32
this was like what sixty years ago??

jesus jehovah people lets move on.... there are people starving!!!

ughhhh

You do realize that this is the history subforum, right?

"WHAT!? THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT HISTORY IN THE HISTORY SECTION!?"

Edit: having read through the entire thread now I find it rather disappointing. There was a brief period of genuine discussion which has since devolved to "zomgah, you Shtalinistsz kill da peoeeeeeeple, daaaa peopleeeeeeeeeeee, murders! you darty motharphuckarz!" Instead of actually addressing what any of the other ML comrades have stated all I see is just moronic insults and the usual inter-tendency tomfoolery, good show Revleft.

Zealot
29th September 2011, 23:04
Whether he was right or wrong, Ho Chi Minh was under the impression that Trotskyists didn't want to unite against the Japanese which he seems to have based on the proceedings in the Soviet Union and other information he picked up. He later regretted what had happened but it was too late by then.

http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/vietnam/pirani/ch06.htm

S.Artesian
29th September 2011, 23:17
Whether he was right or wrong, Ho Chi Minh was under the impression that Trotskyists didn't want to unite against the Japanese which he seems to have based on the proceedings in the Soviet Union and other information he picked up. He later regretted what had happened but it was too late by then.

http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/vietnam/pirani/ch06.htm


Right, and Stalin thought Trotsky, Zinoviev, Bukharin, Tukhachevsky etc. were all in the pay of the Nazis, the Abwehr, and the Japanese.

Look at the real history of the conflict in Vietnam; the real actions of the Big C Communists, not what garbage they spew to justify their class collaboration with the bourgeoisie.

Ismail
29th September 2011, 23:33
Right, and Stalin thought Trotsky, Zinoviev, Bukharin, Tukhachevsky etc. were all in the pay of the Nazis, the Abwehr, and the Japanese.Apparently he did. There's nothing to suggest he didn't and various things to suggest he did, including private correspondence and the words of those who actually knew Stalin.

RED DAVE
30th September 2011, 00:24
I don't see much room for debate here, or maybe because I'm not really up for debate.Or maybe because your political ass is getting kicked from here to Hanoi.


Any discussion about the French Popular Front will inevitably steer us towards the Spanish Popular Front which will steer us towards "Stalinism" and how it ruins everything which will in turn be used to show how "Stalinists" betrayed everything.Only if you drag it in. We are talking about specifics acts of a specific CP in a specific country. If you feel that you have to drag it all the way from Saigon to Madrid, go ahead.


For the record I don't see what the ICP did in-re national liberation as being wrong.Of course you don't.


If someone wanted to do so they can easily assemble a lot of happy talks during the national liberation war (1941-1944) between Enver Hoxha and both British and American officials about how Albania wants to be a friendly democratic country that will not collectivize farmland and suchlike. In fact Albanian Communists had to avowedly deny that they were, well, Communists. They instead stated they were loyal patriots, etc.And what was the final result of their political prevarication: state capitalism and then private capitalism in Albania.


The difference is that in North Vietnam Ho Chi Minh's government, as the link to the study of Vietnamese revisionism I provided in the first page shows, did not advance much beyond this stage of uniting all objectively progressive forces, and instead with Soviet and Chinese backing promoted right-wing economic policies.In other words, the murder of the Vietnamese Trotskyist leadership is off the table and we're back in that font of world revolution, Tirana.


In Albania, on the other hand, the Communists had complete control and at once proceeded with various reforms which obliterated the petty-bourgeoisie and landowners as a class. I don't need to elaborate on how different the paths of North Vietnam and Albania were in terms of attitude towards the national bourgeoisie (of which there basically wasn't any in Albania), etc. after the war.The result was the same: state capitalism leading to private capitalism.


Quite right. The Bolsheviks also suppressed or delayed (the latter when not in power, obviously) workers' protests and such when the need came as well. As Marxists we understand that not every single workers' strike or revolt is objectively in the service of communism just because workers happen to partake in it. Strikes, revolts, etc. can be self-defeating or, deary me, can actually result in objectively reactionary calls.Funny how it is that the opponents of Stalinism, calling for strikes, etc., is reactionary, but, deary me, when Stalinists call for a no-strike pledge, as they did in the USA during WWII, that's progressive.


Yes, although Stalin didn't trust Ho Chi Minh and Ho got a cold reception in Moscow while Stalin was alive. The Chinese were closer to North Vietnam until the 60's.Who gives a fuck when thieves fall out?

Fact is that you're a disgrace to Marxism.

RED DAVE

Crux
30th September 2011, 00:32
Whether he was right or wrong, Ho Chi Minh was under the impression that Trotskyists didn't want to unite against the Japanese which he seems to have based on the proceedings in the Soviet Union and other information he picked up. He later regretted what had happened but it was too late by then.

http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/vietnam/pirani/ch06.htm
Indeed Ho Chi Minh has a point, using the same charge that has been used against communists since the begining, namely that we are "dividing the people", that is engaging in class struggle even against bourgeois who happen to have made a "Popular Front" or a Constitutional assembly. The stalinists have never learned this lesson and indeed has failed to do so even when they have paid in blood, like in Iran or Iraq, or the disastrous alliance wih the Kuomintang in China. As for the charge of being "japanese spies" allow me to quote Connolly:
SOCIALISM IS A FOREIGN IMPORTATION!



I know it because I read it in the papers. I also know it to be the case because in every country I have graced with my presence up to the present time, or have heard from, the possessing classes through their organs in the press, and their spokesmen upon the platform have been vociferous and insistent in declaring the foreign origin of Socialism.
In Ireland Socialism is an English importation, in England they are convinced it was made in Germany, in Germany it is a scheme of traitors in alliance with the French to disrupt the Empire, in France it is an accursed conspiracy to discredit the army which is destined to reconquer Alsace and Lorraine, in Russia it is an English plot to prevent Russian extension towards Asia, in Asia it is known to have been set on foot by American enemies of Chinese and Japanese industrial progress, and in America it is one of the baneful fruits of unrestricted pauper and criminal immigration.
All nations today repudiate Socialism, yet Socialist ideas are conquering all nations. When anything has to be done in a practical direction toward ameliorating the lot of the helpless ones, or towards using the collective force of society in strengthening the hands of the individual it is sure to be in the intellectual armory of Socialists the right weapon is found for the work.

Apoi_Viitor
30th September 2011, 01:58
See? I can do the same thing. I can also get a bourgeois source to show how the Bolsheviks "betrayed" Makhno.

If you really believe that historical accounts are that biased/subjective, why choose to believe one over the other?

Crux
30th September 2011, 02:21
If you really believe that historical accounts are that biased/subjective, why choose to believe one over the other?
He's just attempting to derail the thread or change the subject, apprently since as he said himself, he is not interested in debating the vietnamese class struggle.

A Marxist Historian
30th September 2011, 09:13
"Do you justify the murder of Makhno's bands by the Bolsheviks?"
"Of course."
"YOU EVIL MURDERER!!!1"

See? I can do the same thing. I can also get a bourgeois source to show how the Bolsheviks "betrayed" Makhno.

“In January 1920 [Trotsky] received a telegram from the Ukrainian Anarchist military leader Nestor Makhno, explaining why he, Makhno, was not willing to go to the Polish Front. While continuing ‘peace talks’ with Makhno, Trotsky maintained contact with the Revolutionary Military Committee through Stalin, to whom he cabled: ‘Do you think it would be possible to encircle Makhno right away and carry out a complete liquidation? It would probably be possible to destroy his artillery base if we sent some entirely reliable people there posing as anarchists. Makhno uses hardly any security measures, so we could most probably destroy his ammunition stores.’ Stalin replied: ‘The encirclement of Makhno was started a few days ago and will be accomplished by the ninth. The order [for him] to move against the Poles was issued with the intention of collecting extra material against Makhno.’ Thus, even while Makhno was still an ally, his termination was being planned and executed.”
(Dimitri Volkogonov. Trotsky: The Eternal Revolutionary. New York: Free Press, 1996. p. 158.)

Edit: Considering I'm a Marxist-Leninist and thus naturally regard Trotskyism, Anarchism, "Left-Communism" etc. as objectively anti-communist ideologies, there wasn't much else I could have replied with. Here's a sample of alternatives:

Maoist: "I do not agree. As MAO ZEDONG said, Stalin failed to correctly understand the MASS LINE. Because of this and the DOGMATISM of the Indochinese Communist Party grave errors were carried out because the ICP did not rely on the masses. Only by Stalin adhering to MAO ZEDONG THOUGHT could this have been avoided through the two-line struggle of the hundred flowers of the New Democracy."
Liberal: "No."

Can't see much else.

By 1920, after two years of alternating conflict and alliance, with numerous Bolsheviks having been murdered by Makhno's quite vicious secret police during conflict periods, often after torture, it was just a matter of who was going to strike first. The Bolsheviks had more soldiers, so they struck first. If it had been the other way around, Makhno would have struck first, and used similar means of deception to set it up.

A good argument can be made that things were mishandled during the *first* break between the Bolsheviks and Makhno in 1919. And after Makhno blew Grigoriev away, Trotsky for one did want to re-establish an honest alliance with Makhno, that's quite clear from his military writings.

But after the *second* break, when Makhno decided to side with Petliura instead of the Bolsheviks when the Whites collapsed in the fall of 1919, that was it. That was the period in which the worst anti-Jewish pogroms by Makhnovites took place.

The brief Bolshevik-Makhno alliance vs. Wrangel in late 1920 was strictly a matter of temporary convenience on both sides, and who struck first was meaningless.

-M.H.-

Ismail
30th September 2011, 17:09
I'm well aware of that. The Makhnovschina, 1917-1921 is a good work on the subject.

The point is that, in my view, Trotskyists are not reliable individuals. This view will be entirely rejected by Trotskyists themselves, obviously, but the point of a vanguard is that a party, despite what Trots or Maoists say, is not a place of two-line struggles to be tolerated or promoted. Marxist-Leninists regard Trotskyism as a petty-bourgeois trend à la Anarchism, Left Communism, etc. You can't really ally with such people on any lasting basis, just like you can't ally with the petty-bourgeoisie in general on any lasting basis.

S.Artesian
30th September 2011, 17:34
^^^^And what does that have to do with suppressing a workers class-wide social rebellion against imperialism/capitalism?

Actually, everything as for you the issue isn't a "two-line" struggle within the party-- that's not what your real objection is-- it's the "two-line" or multiple "line" struggles outside the party...in the class which leads you to endorse the murder of worker-militants based on your particular ideology.

The problem with your ideology is its 1) [lack of] class analysis which feeds 2) your misidentification and substitution of your party for the class.

And historically, this "mistake," was also one practiced by Trotsky and his followers.... with the mitigating condition that Trotsky actually advocated, adhered, understood what a united class-specific front was.

Which is the reason, and the only reason I think it's possible to work with Trotskyists as much as I oppose their vanguardism, their positions on imperialism, their fetish of "national self-determination." But that's for another discussion.

This discussion right here is that for a period of time Stalinists and Trotskyists were able to collaborate on a class program and that the "break" was part of the Stalinists' move to accommodate the bourgeoisie a la the popular front.

Os Cangaceiros
30th September 2011, 21:16
Marxist-Leninists regard Trotskyism as a petty-bourgeois trend à la Anarchism, Left Communism, etc.

A totally ahistorical view.


You can't really ally with such people on any lasting basis, just like you can't ally with the petty-bourgeoisie in general on any lasting basis.

But you can ally with them just long enough to get whatever you want out of them, before they realize that you're just another snake in the grass. I don't necessarily agree with what happened in regards to Makhno's group, but the circumstances in which it happened are just a bit different than rounding up a bunch of communist militants and murdering them in cold blood. Disgusting.

Rodrigo
30th September 2011, 21:32
A totally ahistorical view.



But you can ally with them just long enough to get whatever you want out of them, before they realize that you're just another snake in the grass. I don't necessarily agree with what happened in regards to Makhno's group, but the circumstances in which it happened are just a bit different than rounding up a bunch of communist militants and murdering them in cold blood. Disgusting.


Why Makhnovists were communist?

DaringMehring
30th September 2011, 22:05
Why Makhnovists were communist?

You see no difference in militarily defeating an armed band that was rampaging around the countryside in step with pogromist Petliura, and executing the disarmed communists, who had surrendered without firing a shot, and fought on your side against mutual enemy, despite politically disagreeing you?

And that's without even getting into the circumstances, of Stalinists killing in order to preserve an alliance with the national bourgeoisie. Literally, becoming communist killers on behalf of the bourgeoisie, much like Ebert and Noske of the German SPD.

It may have some how seemed logical or been able to pass due to lack of information back then, but I can't understand how any thinking person today can still believe in it. Massacring communists to keep a monopoly on political discourse as the bureaucracy takes the path to capitalism -- led to capitalism? Shocking. Maybe if there were left alternatives, the masses would have been able to keep the course to socialism and communism. Too bad the Official Communists wouldn't let that happen to the point of exterminating the dissenting communist voices. Too bad some people still think they were right to do it.

S.Artesian
30th September 2011, 22:33
You see no difference in militarily defeating an armed band that was rampaging around the countryside in step with pogromist Petliura, and executing the disarmed communists, who had surrendered without firing a shot, and fought on your side against mutual enemy, despite politically disagreeing you?

And that's without even getting into the circumstances, of Stalinists killing in order to preserve an alliance with the national bourgeoisie. Literally, becoming communist killers on behalf of the bourgeoisie, much like Ebert and Noske of the German SPD.

It may have some how seemed logical or been able to pass due to lack of information back then, but I can't understand how any thinking person today can still believe in it. Massacring communists to keep a monopoly on political discourse as the bureaucracy takes the path to capitalism -- led to capitalism? Shocking. Maybe if there were left alternatives, the masses would have been able to keep the course to socialism and communism. Too bad the Official Communists wouldn't let that happen to the point of exterminating the dissenting communist voices. Too bad some people still think they were right to do it.

I think, comrade DaringMehring, the answer is obvious-- he does not see a difference, and we should understand that about Stalinists. They're function is to interrupt, canalize revolution into safe streams, and murder is how they dig that canal.

Keep that in mind.