transgenderism/transsexualism

[Seth]

I'll admit I don't know enough about this to really have an informed opinion, and this isn't my opinion, but here goes an argument against transwomen being women or transmen being men for people on this forum to respond to. Basically a devil's advocate made from all the arguments I've ever heard against it.

How can someone be born in the "wrong body" if their genes match their genitals? And if sex and gender are different, then why do we have doctors violating their hippocratic oath to mutilate genitalia to become a man or a woman? Shouldn't these people be treated as having a mental problem and given care accordingly to accept their bodies? If a person convinced himself that he was a dog no one in their right mind would just accept it, it would be a problem. He is a human by his genes. Same with someone's sex, so why do they get their desires to have things cut off or constructed fulfilled or to get hormones their body wasn't programmed for genetically?

Also, if a woman has a penis how is she a woman?

[Ballyfornia]

I don't know the answers to them questions and i don't really care about the answers. Why can't we just let people be the way they want to be?

[Queercommie Girl]

I'll admit I don't know enough about this to really have an informed opinion, and this isn't my opinion, but here goes an argument against transwomen being women or transmen being men for people on this forum to respond to. Basically a devil's advocate made from all the arguments I've ever heard against it.

How can someone be born in the "wrong body" if their genes match their genitals? And if sex and gender are different, then why do we have doctors violating their hippocratic oath to mutilate genitalia to become a man or a woman? Shouldn't these people be treated as having a mental problem and given care accordingly to accept their bodies? If a person convinced himself that he was a dog no one in their right mind would just accept it, it would be a problem. He is a human by his genes. Same with someone's sex, so why do they get their desires to have things cut off or constructed fulfilled or to get hormones their body wasn't programmed for genetically?

Also, if a woman has a penis how is she a woman?

There are different kinds of transgenderism, some focus more on the body, others more on social roles. Personally I think transgenderism is more than just wishing to change one's body to that of the opposite sex, since humans are fundamentally social creatures. A trans-woman is also someone who wish to live as a woman and be considered as a woman by society.

However, there is scientific evidence suggesting a biological basis for transgenderism:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html

Keep in mind that since humans are intelligent and sentient creatures, it is our minds (brains) that determine gender, not genitals. I'm influenced by trans-humanism so I think in the future it may be possible to upload one's mind into a digital media or even into another body, like how computer software can be transferred today, but this is digressing a bit too much. The point is that it is our minds (brains) that make us human, so when there is a conflict between mind and body, usually one should try to modify the body, not the mind.

Your idea about "treating transgenderism as a mental illness" is very reactionary and transphobic. It's like those people who think that homosexuality is a mental illness. There is absolutely no evidence that such "treatments" ever work, whether for gay or for trans people. For their own personal welfare, the only way to "*treat*" transgendered people is to modify their bodies according to their minds, not the other way around. The "dog analogy" makes no sense either since dogs are not human, and men and women are not two different biological species. In the future it may even be possible for humanity to transcend biological sex differences altogether, but again this is a tangent.

Technically it is possible for someone with a penis to still be considered as a woman because in this case "being a woman" is a "social category/social role" and not directly biological.

I think the idea that "modifying one's own body" must necessarily be "mutilation" makes no sense at all. I'm an atheist and I have no quasi-religious ideas about the "natural human body being sacred". There is nothing metaphysically sacred about the body, and one essentially has the right to modify his/her own body however one wishes within certain limits, because the body in question belongs to the individual. Doctors are not breaking any oath because they are simply following the will of the individual. Of course, in countries like Iran where some homosexuals are forced to change their sex the issue becomes very different.

[Astarte]

I'll admit I don't know enough about this to really have an informed opinion, and this isn't my opinion, but here goes an argument against transwomen being women or transmen being men for people on this forum to respond to. Basically a devil's advocate made from all the arguments I've ever heard against it.

How can someone be born in the "wrong body" if their genes match their genitals? And if sex and gender are different, then why do we have doctors violating their hippocratic oath to mutilate genitalia to become a man or a woman?

For me this is not so much of a problem, as I am not an atheist, and don't so much see a problem with the "born in the wrong body" argument. While I am not transgender, I have been diagnosed before as "gender dysphoric", and have resisted for many years urges to transition, not because I don't support it, or don't think of it as a legitimate way to change gender, but for a combination of reasons, having to do with my family (alienating them), financial reasons (it is damn expensive in the USA), and honestly being unsure whether it is really "for me" or not.


Shouldn't these people be treated as having a mental problem and given care accordingly to accept their bodies?

Being labelled as mentally deficient because of gender identification is not only degrading, but it is also untrue. It belongs to the same class of psychology that sees homosexuality as a "mental deficiency".


If a person convinced himself that he was a dog no one in their right mind would just accept it, it would be a problem.

In the Book of Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar thought he was an Ox for a while - the verses seem to describe a psychotic break causing this. Transgenderism is not a psychotic break. It is the constant and inherent feeling of belonging to the opposite gender and wanting to assimilate into that gender. Equating transgenderism with the above analogy almost seems like equating the opposite sex with an animal species.


He is a human by his genes. Same with someone's sex, so why do they get their desires to have things cut off or constructed fulfilled or to get hormones their body wasn't programmed for genetically?

Its a phenomenon that has existed since the dawn of civilization and even prior. The Native North Americans had the "two-spirited shaman". The Mesopotamians had the transgendered priests of Inanna-Ishtar. The Greeks had the priests of Cybelle. The Indians had, and still have the Hijras.


Also, if a woman has a penis how is she a woman?

Gender is not the same thing as biological sex.

[Queercommie Girl]

Gender is not the same thing as biological sex.


Also, just because she still has a penis, doesn't mean she can't also have full-sized breasts as well...

[thriller]

@QueerCommie Girl I think Seth wasn't trying to be transphobic, just stating what he has heard before and wanting to know how to combat it, which you did well.

To me, gender and sex are social constructs. There are many American Indian tribes that view transgenders as holy. It's all perspective. Love and respect it what is needed.

[Queercommie Girl]

^

I didn't say he/she was transphobic...

[thriller]

Obviously misread, my bad.