HAMAS refuses to back Palestinian Statehood...

[ComradeMan]

... unless that new state refuses to recognise the legitimacy of Israel. :rolleyes:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/hamas-we-may-back-palestinian-state-that-does-not-recognize-israel-s-existence-1.385176

http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com/?p=158586

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/09/18/167474.html

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/10371958-hamas-we-will-make-palestinian-state-that-does-not-recogniz-israel

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hjRaCdQd8FQmU6o3d4APB_h1otmQ?docId=CNG.34b2c 52c6e031868e70087b6365b3133.711

[Nox]

Israel is legitimate!? :confused:

[Bud Struggle]

Israel is legitimate!? :confused:

There is no such thing as "legitimate." It either exists or it doesn't.

[Smyg]

[Anarchist ranting]

No state is legitimate.

[/Anarchist ranting]

[Bud Struggle]

[Anarchist ranting]

No state is legitimate.

[/Anarchist ranting]

I was just going to edit my post to say that. You beat me to it.

Exactly!

[RGacky3]

Why should Hamas recognize the state of Israel (which has NO concrete effects either way), when Israel is actively and physically stopping palestine from any statehood?

Hamas not recognizing Israel has absolutely 0 consequences, Israel actively preventing any palestinian autonomy has real effects and is the source of the problem.

State recognition is a chip on the table that should not be give up unless Israel recognizes Palestinian statehood.

BTW, who cares what Hamas says, they arn't the ones causing the problems here.

[ComradeMan]

Why should Hamas recognize the state of Israel (which has NO concrete effects either way), when Israel is actively and physically stopping palestine from any statehood?

Well from what I've been reading it seems that refusing to recognise Israel is a big factor. I've also read one article posted by "freepalestine" that basically says either way it suits Israel- :confused:- so it seems Israel can't win: acknowledge Palestinian statehood and be damned or don't acknowledge it and be damned.

Considering a Palestinian state would, I presume, include Gaza and Hamas dominates Gaza politics I fail to see how you regard their position as irrelevant.

[RGacky3]

Well from what I've been reading it seems that refusing to recognise Israel is a big factor.


How? Is Israel occupying, blockaiding, humiliating and dispossesing palestine becaues Hamas does'nt write on a paper that they recognise Israel? A paper which would'nt change a damn thing in material conditions?


acknowledge Palestinian statehood and be damned or don't acknowledge it and be damned.


Well if palestine is actually acknowleged as a state it gives them some international rights, i.e. Israeli military action IN palestine is an act of war.


Considering a Palestinian state would, I presume, include Gaza and Hamas dominates Gaza politics I fail to see how you regard their position as irrelevant.

Unless Hamas would activele prevent Israel from functioning as a state, which I seriously doubt, its irrelevent.

[ComradeMan]

How? Is Israel occupying, blockaiding, humiliating and dispossesing palestine becaues Hamas does'nt write on a paper that they recognise Israel? A paper which would'nt change a damn thing in material conditions?

Well Israel would claim that the reasons for the blockade are security reasons largely provoked by tha actions organisations such as Hamas. Of cource the poverty in Palestinian areas has also been attributed to widespread corruption and misappropriation of funds.


Well if palestine is actually acknowleged as a state it gives them some international rights, i.e. Israeli military action IN palestine is an act of war.

Yeah and so will rocket attacks into Israel be acts of war... now I wonder why Hamas are so against Palestinian statehood?

Gacky- you are completely clueless when it comes to this issue and either deliberately avoid the subjects at hand or choose to put your own interpretation on things which has nothing to do with the real world and realpolitik.

[RGacky3]

Well Israel would claim that the reasons for the blockade are security reasons largely provoked by tha actions organisations such as Hamas

Do you claim that?

People claim a lot of stuff, but if thats what they are claiming its clearly bullshit, Israel basically just wants to beat palestine into submission.


Of cource the poverty in Palestinian areas has also been attributed to widespread corruption and misappropriation of funds.


A lot more of it is attributed to the blockaid and dispossession of all the good land by Israel.


Yeah and so will rocket attacks into Israel be acts of war... now I wonder why Hamas are so against Palestinian statehood?


The rocket attacts are few and far between, the systematic violence of Israel WAY WAY WAY outweighs the rocket attacks by Hamas (who has'vt been violent for a while now).

But yeah, rocket attacks would be acts of war, but its not like the response to the rocket attacks would be any more severe if they had statehood.


Gacky- you are completely clueless when it comes to this issue and either deliberately avoid the subjects at hand or choose to put your own interpretation on things which has nothing to do with the real world and realpolitik.

What your doing is the equivilent of blaming the black panthers, or the nation of islam for hte systematic racism of the 50s and 60s.

[ComradeMan]

People claim a lot of stuff, but if thats what they are claiming its clearly bullshit, Israel basically just wants to beat palestine into submission.

So the rocket attacks on Israeli civilian targets and the terrorist cells are all just figments of a paranoid zionist imagination.... You're being pathetic. Even Mahmoud Abbas has not been able to visit Gaza for the last four or so years for fear of Hamas, who, it was alleged, was saved by the Israeli security forces tipping him off about an assassination plot by Hamas in 2006 whilst still in Gaza. So Abbas is cut off from about 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza.


A lot more of it is attributed to the blockaid and dispossession of all the good land by Israel.

Well I am sure you'll be able to find some facts and statistics to back up your claim.

However we could talk about things like how the Financial Times (1998) reported on $160 million from the Gaza Employees Pension Fund (originally transferred by Israel) disappeared into "telecommunications" projects. Or we could talk about when the EU discovered that $20 million in donations for low-cost housing has actually be used to build apartments for supporters of Arafat. What about the Egyptian-Palestinian cement scandal? This is an interesting one... cement from Egypt that was intended to rebuild Palestinian homes was allegedly sold at profit to Israel to construct the so-called "apartheid" barriers. Or of course we could talk about the $700 million of public funds that "disappeared" and was being investigated by the PA itself.



http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-amayreh060804.htm
http://www.phrmg.org/Corruption%20in%20the%20Palestinian%20Authority.ht m
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/feb/06/israel


The rocket attacts are few and far between, the systematic violence of Israel WAY WAY WAY outweighs the rocket attacks by Hamas (who has'vt been violent for a while now).
"Palestinian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_militant) rocket (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket) and mortar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortar_%28weapon%29) attacks on Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) from the Gaza Strip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip) have occurred since 2001. Between 2001 and January 2009, over 8,600 rockets had been launched, leading to 28 deaths and several hundred injuries,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#cite_note-BBC_Q.26A-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#cite_note-1) as well as widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life.[3]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#cite_note-BBC_catandmouse-2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#cite_note-BBC_catandmouse-2)

Now Israel stated that these rocket attacks were a cause of the blockade- whatever- I would hardly call 8,600 rockets "few and far between"- so now you're being intellectually dishonest.

Here's a little timeline:-
2000- Israeli PM Ehud Barak (Labor) proposed full sovereignty over 97% of the West Bank including the Gaza corridor and a capital in Arab Jerusalem/El Quds. The response was negative.

2008- Palestinian Authority President Abbas refused similar offer from Israeli PM Ehud Olmert (Kadima/Likud)

The issue here is that large sections do not want Palestine as we understand it but the whole of Israel and Palestine!!! Israel is not going to dismantle itself, would any nation agree to that? and unfortunately the issue of not recognising in any way, shape or form the legitimacy of any state of Israel whatsoever is a major bar on political negotations.

No one is defending hardcore zionism or denying the heavy-handed and poor treatment of the Palestinians but what people are saying is that the Palestinians in terms of their own leadership have been and are just as unreasonable, ricalcitrant and hypocritical-whilst allegedly making money out of the whole situation too. ;)

Of course this brings us to another problem of whether you actually think the state of Israel has any right to exist at all....

Another little fact for you- in the period 1992-98 GNP in the territories declined by 40%, wages fell by 16% and people were forced to sell their housing in order to be able to purchase basic commodities such as food. All that has happened is that the territories became even more economically reliant on Israel.

[RGacky3]

So the rocket attacks on Israeli civilian targets and the terrorist cells are all just figments of a paranoid zionist imagination.... You're being pathetic. Even Mahmoud Abbas has not been able to visit Gaza for the last four or so years for fear of Hamas, who, it was alleged, was saved by the Israeli security forces tipping him off about an assassination plot by Hamas in 2006 whilst still in Gaza. So Abbas is cut off from about 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza.


They were at war at that time due to the elections not being respected.

There has been on an on and off ceasefire since 2008, which has been largely respected by Hamas. And they've been willing to cooperate with the US and israel since 2009, which is a lot given the US and Israel refuses to cooperate with them.


However we could talk about things like how the Financial Times (1998) reported on $160 million from the Gaza Employees Pension Fund (originally transferred by Israel) disappeared into "telecommunications" projects. Or we could talk about when the EU discovered that $20 million in donations for low-cost housing has actually be used to build apartments for supporters of Arafat. What about the Egyptian-Palestinian cement scandal? This is an interesting one... cement from Egypt that was intended to rebuild Palestinian homes was allegedly sold at profit to Israel to construct the so-called "apartheid" barriers. Or of course we could talk about the $700 million of public funds that "disappeared" and was being investigated by the PA itself.


Ok, there is corruption .... Does that corruption cause the blockaid, dispossession, the occupaiton, the settlements, the humiliation? We can't stop corruption can we, thats their internal problem, what Israel does is something we can stop.

The statistics were shown in another thread, showing how much land was taken away from palestine.


"Palestinian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_militant)rocket (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket) and mortar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortar_%28weapon%29) attacks on Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) from the Gaza Strip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip) have occurred since 2001. Between 2001 and January 2009, over 8,600 rockets had been launched, leading to 28 deaths and several hundred injuries,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#cite_note-BBC_Q.26A-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#cite_note-1) as well as widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life.[3]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#cite_note-BBC_catandmouse-2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#cite_note-BBC_catandmouse-2)

Now Israel stated that these rocket attacks were a cause of the blockade- whatever- I would hardly call 8,600 rockets "few and far between"- so now you're being intellectually dishonest.

Here's a little timeline:-
2000- Israeli PM Ehud Barak (Labor) proposed full sovereignty over 97% of the West Bank including the Gaza corridor and a capital in Arab Jerusalem/El Quds. The response was negative.

2008- Palestinian Authority President Abbas refused similar offer from Israeli PM Ehud Olmert (Kadima/Likud)

The issue here is that large sections do not want Palestine as we understand it but the whole of Israel and Palestine!!! Israel is not going to dismantle itself, would any nation agree to that? and unfortunately the issue of not recognising in any way, shape or form the legitimacy of any state of Israel whatsoever is a major bar on political negotations.


Since the ceasefire.


Of course this brings us to another problem of whether you actually think the state of Israel has any right to exist at all....


Why is that an issue at all? No one is stopping Israel from existing, Isreal and the US is actively stopping palestine from existing.


All that has happened is that the territories became even more economically reliant on Israel.

I wonder why?

[manic expression]

So the rocket attacks on Israeli civilian targets and the terrorist cells are all just figments of a paranoid zionist imagination.... You're being pathetic. Even Mahmoud Abbas has not been able to visit Gaza for the last four or so years for fear of Hamas, who, it was alleged, was saved by the Israeli security forces tipping him off about an assassination plot by Hamas in 2006 whilst still in Gaza. So Abbas is cut off from about 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza.
Such actions are necessary because Palestinians have no access to conventional military means to defend themselves. They're simply doing what they can to oppose the brutal occupation against them. The MK engaged in similar tactics against apartheid South Africa...I guess the end of apartheid wasn't a good thing, right?

[ComradeMan]

Such actions are necessary because Palestinians have no access to conventional military means to defend themselves. They're simply doing what they can to oppose the brutal occupation against them. The MK engaged in similar tactics against apartheid South Africa...I guess the end of apartheid wasn't a good thing, right?

Except those rocket attacks did not defend the Palestinians against anything and were an act of "political" aggression that actually brought more collateral suffering on the Palestinians whilst those responsible (allegedly) continued to enrich themselves. The blockade was a result of the rocket attacks, the rocket attacks were not a response to the blockade.

[ComradeMan]

They were at war at that time due to the elections not being respected.

Why is Israel responsible for Fatah-Hamas infighting?


There has been on an on and off ceasefire since 2008, which has been largely respected by Hamas. And they've been willing to cooperate with the US and israel since 2009, which is a lot given the US and Israel refuses to cooperate with them.

What co-operation? What fictitious world is this in which you live? In January 2011 Hamas lashed out at the PA for "co-operation" with Israel.

You're just making stuff up now because your whole argument is based on lies, ignorance and distortion.



Ok, there is corruption .... Does that corruption cause the blockaid, dispossession, the occupaiton, the settlements, the humiliation? We can't stop corruption can we, thats their internal problem, what Israel does is something we can stop.

The rocket attacks are mostly from Gaza, correct me if I'm wrong but the settlements in Gaza were removed by the Israeli authorities. The blockade is the result of attacks on Israel and all the subsequent ills that follow.


The statistics were shown in another thread, showing how much land was taken away from palestine.

Please show me these statistics. All I have seen is statistics showing how land was bought and sold- sold by a lot of "Palestinians" who obviously didn't give a shit about their "Palestinian" tenants.


Why is that an issue at all? No one is stopping Israel from existing, Isreal and the US is actively stopping palestine from existing.

Do you actually know anything about the history and geo-politics of this region? I am beginning to think not.... the ones stopping Palestine from existing in political terms are those who claim to be the voice of the Palestinian people, but fine, if you want to ignore inconvenient little details like historical facts then go ahead with your ignorance that above all actually harms the well-being of the ordinary and innocent Palestinians on the ground.

[PhoenixAsh]

Except those rocket attacks did not defend the Palestinians against anything and were an act of "political" aggression that actually brought more collateral suffering on the Palestinians whilst those responsible (allegedly) continued to enrich themselves. The blockade was a result of the rocket attacks, the rocket attacks were not a response to the blockade.


This is a reverse argument. The part where you should start is the expulsion politics of Israel which were finally implemented in 1948. Whatever happened after that is basically a reaction.

Let it be known that the Zionist congress of 1921 stated that it sought to establish a union state for both Palestinians and Jews. Zionism after that changed radically and during the late 30's the emphasize became the religious obligation to reclaim the Judean kingdoms of anicent times as a religious obligation and duty. THAT is exactly what Israel has been doing since its creation. And that is what causes the continued conflict.

The rocket attacks are merely a deflection.
The safety argument is merely deflection.

It deflects from the fact that Israel created these tensions in the first place and wishes to actually perpetuate them in order to be able to reclaim the entire region.

[ComradeMan]

This is a reverse argument. The part where you should start is the expulsion politics of Israel which were finally implemented in 1948. Whatever happened after that is basically a reaction.
.

Could you explain those in detail with sources. Israeli sources suggest that the Arabs were invited to stay.

[manic expression]

Except those rocket attacks did not defend the Palestinians against anything and were an act of "political" aggression that actually brought more collateral suffering on the Palestinians whilst those responsible (allegedly) continued to enrich themselves. The blockade was a result of the rocket attacks, the rocket attacks were not a response to the blockade.
You have it exactly backwards. The use of rockets were in direct response to the blockade against Gaza...Israel still refuses to relinquish control over Gaza's airspace, coastlines and borders. It doesn't (http://www.revleft.com/vb/www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/deborah-orr/deborah-orr-there-wouldnt-have-been-gaza-rockets-without-the-blockade-1229944.html) take much to accept this fact.

[ComradeMan]

This is a reverse argument. The part where you should start is the expulsion politics of Israel which were finally implemented in 1948. Whatever happened after that is basically a reaction.
.

Could you explain those in detail with sources. Israeli sources suggest that the Arabs were invited to stay. The trouble with this line of argument is that we are talking first of 1921 and then of 1948 when the situations and history had changed radically and also that reading through the opposing sources and references it really is hard to decide who, if anyone, is telling the truth. :(

[ComradeMan]

You have it exactly backwards. The use of rockets were in direct response to the blockade against Gaza...Israel still refuses to relinquish control over Gaza's airspace, coastlines and borders. It doesn't (http://www.revleft.com/vb/www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/deborah-orr/deborah-orr-there-wouldnt-have-been-gaza-rockets-without-the-blockade-1229944.html) take much to accept this fact.

Which blockade? The Gaza blockade has been by both Israel and Egypt since 2007 (bearing in mind recent events in Egypt) eased by Israel in 2010 and Egypt in 2011. The rocket attacks commenced in 2001/2002.

[RGacky3]

Why is Israel responsible for Fatah-Hamas infighting?


Never said they were, but I can blame the US for punishing the palestinians for voting the wrong way.


What co-operation? What fictitious world is this in which you live? In January 2011 Hamas lashed out at the PA for "co-operation" with Israel.

You're just making stuff up now because your whole argument is based on lies, ignorance and distortion.


Cooperation meaning respecting ceasefires, and saying they want to sit at the negotiating table, and making statements for open dialog.


The rocket attacks are mostly from Gaza, correct me if I'm wrong but the settlements in Gaza were removed by the Israeli authorities. The blockade is the result of attacks on Israel and all the subsequent ills that follow.


Really? So the attacks is why they don't allow medical equipment in? And the attacks have basically stopped for while now, why still the blockaid? The reason is clearly to strangle the palestinians in Gaza into submission.


Please show me these statistics. All I have seen is statistics showing how land was bought and sold- sold by a lot of "Palestinians" who obviously didn't give a shit about their "Palestinian" tenants.

Go to the other thread.

Anyway http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2011/09/22/palestine_israel_occupation/index.html

Its not sold, its turned into "restricted military area," which basically means that Israel now owns the area, and by making life so hard for the locals they almost have to move out, like stopping any infastructure projects under the guise of "security."

But I'm sure you'll find some false equivilancy about this too, like "Well what do you expect, kids throw rocks at tanks."


Do you actually know anything about the history and geo-politics of this region? I am beginning to think not.... the ones stopping Palestine from existing in political terms are those who claim to be the voice of the Palestinian people, but fine, if you want to ignore inconvenient little details like historical facts then go ahead with your ignorance that above all actually harms the well-being of the ordinary and innocent Palestinians on the ground.

Really? So its the palestinian leadership that is vetoing the UN vote for palestinian statehood?

Its the palestinian leadership that is blockaiding itself in Gaza? Its the palestinian leadership that is dispossessing and occupying the westbank?

Or is it that they don't know their place, and that the DARED to EVER raise a finger to Israel and so now they deserve all that Israel does?

Or maybe Israel HAS to blockaid Gaza, dispossess and occupy the westbank, because the palestinian authorities are like most governments subject to some corruption ....

Its admirable somewhat, that you will say the stupidest thing, and ignore all reality and do whatever it takes to make sure Israel does'nt take the rap for what it does. You are to Israel what Tim Geithner is to Wallstreet.

[manic expression]

Which blockade? The Gaza blockade has been by both Israel and Egypt since 2007 (bearing in mind recent events in Egypt) eased by Israel in 2010 and Egypt in 2011. The rocket attacks commenced in 2001/2002.
Gaza was still directly occupied in 2001/2002...and you're trying to tell us Palestinian defense actions aren't justified?

Egypt is playing Israel's game because of imperialist pressure.

The easing of the blockade (from both Egypt and Israel) was due in part because the Palestinians refused to forfeit their right to self-defense.

[RGacky3]

Why is Israel responsible for Fatah-Hamas infighting?


Never said they were, but I can blame the US for punishing the palestinians for voting the wrong way.


What co-operation? What fictitious world is this in which you live? In January 2011 Hamas lashed out at the PA for "co-operation" with Israel.

You're just making stuff up now because your whole argument is based on lies, ignorance and distortion.


Cooperation meaning respecting ceasefires, and saying they want to sit at the negotiating table, and making statements for open dialog.


The rocket attacks are mostly from Gaza, correct me if I'm wrong but the settlements in Gaza were removed by the Israeli authorities. The blockade is the result of attacks on Israel and all the subsequent ills that follow.


Really? So the attacks is why they don't allow medical equipment in? And the attacks have basically stopped for while now, why still the blockaid? The reason is clearly to strangle the palestinians in Gaza into submission.


Please show me these statistics. All I have seen is statistics showing how land was bought and sold- sold by a lot of "Palestinians" who obviously didn't give a shit about their "Palestinian" tenants.

Go to the other thread.

Anyway http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2011/09/22/palestine_israel_occupation/index.html

Its not sold, its turned into "restricted military area," which basically means that Israel now owns the area, and by making life so hard for the locals they almost have to move out, like stopping any infastructure projects under the guise of "security."

But I'm sure you'll find some false equivilancy about this too, like "Well what do you expect, kids throw rocks at tanks."


Do you actually know anything about the history and geo-politics of this region? I am beginning to think not.... the ones stopping Palestine from existing in political terms are those who claim to be the voice of the Palestinian people, but fine, if you want to ignore inconvenient little details like historical facts then go ahead with your ignorance that above all actually harms the well-being of the ordinary and innocent Palestinians on the ground.

Really? So its the palestinian leadership that is vetoing the UN vote for palestinian statehood?

Its the palestinian leadership that is blockaiding itself in Gaza? Its the palestinian leadership that is dispossessing and occupying the westbank?

Or is it that they don't know their place, and that the DARED to EVER raise a finger to Israel and so now they deserve all that Israel does?

Or maybe Israel HAS to blockaid Gaza, dispossess and occupy the westbank, because the palestinian authorities are like most governments subject to some corruption ....

Its admirable somewhat, that you will say the stupidest thing, and ignore all reality and do whatever it takes to make sure Israel does'nt take the rap for what it does. You are to Israel what Tim Geithner is to Wallstreet.

[ComradeMan]

Never said they were, but I can blame the US for punishing the palestinians for voting the wrong way.

Except we weren't actually talking about the US were we? More blame shifting here.


Cooperation meaning respecting ceasefires, and saying they want to sit at the negotiating table, and making statements for open dialog.

Hamas is well-know for respecting ceasefires, it's open dialogue consists in offering "truces" only whilst still adhering to a virulently anti-semitic ideology, refusing to recognise the state of Israel in any way, shape or form and calling for the utter obliteration of that state whilst in the meantime (allegedly) being responsible for terrorist cells and rocket attacks on Israel. Yeah, great way to sit around the table... :rolleyes:


Really? So the attacks is why they don't allow medical equipment in? And the attacks have basically stopped for while now, why still the blockaid? The reason is clearly to strangle the palestinians in Gaza into submission.

Medical aid is allowed into Gaza, funnily enough it was Egypt that was involved in one of the most recent blockade of medical aid debacles. Speaking of medical aid, remember that poor Italian aid activist who was killed by jihadists in Gaza? Israel itself has sent medical aid into Gaza. In 2010 in one movement alone 14,000 tons of aid, including medical aid, were taken into Gaza by the IDF. Furthermore ordinary Palestinians from Gaza have been allowed to get medical care in Israel- the stats I saw said that in 2009 around 10,000 Gaza residents received medical care in Israel.

Of course you could mention, but you don't, how Hamas has been known to seize aid convoys intended for ordinary Palestinians and stop NGO aid agencies from operating because they were "connected" to Fatah.

You also fail to notice that even in the most cynical sense it's not good for Israel to "strangle" the Palestinians of Gaza into submission in any sense. Why would Israel do that? It would not make economic sense and it would not make strategic sense. Anyway, submission to what? Submission to a state that it does not recognise nor want to be part of?


Its not sold, its turned into "restricted military area," which basically means that Israel now owns the area, and by making life so hard for the locals they almost have to move out, like stopping any infastructure projects under the guise of "security."

Err.. not really. Anyway where are we talking about? Israel proper, Gaza or the West Bank (formerly Jordan).


Really? So its the palestinian leadership that is vetoing the UN vote for palestinian statehood?

Hamas.


Its the palestinian leadership that is blockaiding itself in Gaza? Its the palestinian leadership that is dispossessing and occupying the westbank?

Hamas in Gaza. What percentage of the West Bank is "settled"- 3%? Admittedly if we are to include under military observation/control then that number could reach 40%. But then I have never thought that the settlements were a good idea to be honest if people are going to push for a two-state solution- but then again I have always thought that the two-state solution was a bad one too and have always preferred the bi-national one state solution.

They should have listened to Habib Bourguiba back in 1965 in my opinion too.

[Geiseric]

Is somebody seriously defending Israel?

[Apoi_Viitor]

ls somebody seriously defending Hamas?

[Seth]

Did it ever occur to you, comrademan, that it's not that hard to launch 8000 + rockets over that period of time considering there are constantly periods of fighting and tension thanks to Zionism?

What about Israel's attrition bombing?

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

At first I was a little puzzled by the thread title but now I get it, see what you did there, you haven't disappointed me Hamas.

Of course Hamas isn't going to support anything that would directly or indirectly support the existance of the state of Israel as there is no reason whatsoever to support such a thing. Still, I do think this is a little poorly played, at this point, I would support the bid for Palestine's statehood, even if they did on paper recognize the right of the existance of Israel, then later we could work on sorting things out more to our liking. ;)

[Seth]

If they recognize "Israel" now, how are they going to get the rest of Palestine back?


I don't think this is a bad move on their part. They should strive for nothing less than the total elimination of the "Jewish state".

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

If they recognize "Israel" now, how are they going to get the rest of Palestine back?

When I said that I had in mind saying one thing and doing the other but I generally agree with what you're saying yeah.

[freepalestine]

The blockade on Gaza began long before Hamas came to power
http://www.imemc.org/article/61600




-----------
Deadly Gas in Gaza
http://palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=14727
Chomsky says Israel is pillaging Gaza’s natural gas reserves
http://mondoweiss.net/2010/04/chomsky-says-israel-is-pillaging-gazas-natural-gas-reserves.html
Stealing Gaza's Gas
http://www.freegaza.org/es/info-sobre-gaza/saqueo-del-gas-de-gaza

[LOLseph Stalin]

This really doesn't surprise me, considering Israeli forces have been consistently terrorizing Palestinians since 1948. I'm no fan of their Islamo-fascist ideology, but the majority of their actions have been in response to Israel's.

[RGacky3]

Except we weren't actually talking about the US were we? More blame shifting here.


Ok ... but I never blamed Israel for Hamas and Abbas violence.


Hamas is well-know for respecting ceasefires, it's open dialogue consists in offering "truces" only whilst still adhering to a virulently anti-semitic ideology, refusing to recognise the state of Israel in any way, shape or form and calling for the utter obliteration of that state whilst in the meantime (allegedly) being responsible for terrorist cells and rocket attacks on Israel. Yeah, great way to sit around the table... :rolleyes:


Yeah ... but since 2008/2009.


Of course you could mention, but you don't, how Hamas has been known to seize aid convoys intended for ordinary Palestinians and stop NGO aid agencies from operating because they were "connected" to Fatah.


Hamas is also one of the biggest welfare and social providers in gaza, I don't know about the stuff your talking about here, but I'd like to see sources .


You also fail to notice that even in the most cynical sense it's not good for Israel to "strangle" the Palestinians of Gaza into submission in any sense. Why would Israel do that? It would not make economic sense and it would not make strategic sense. Anyway, submission to what? Submission to a state that it does not recognise nor want to be part of?


Israel wants to have ALL of palestine, including Gaza.


Err.. not really. Anyway where are we talking about? Israel proper, Gaza or the West Bank (formerly Jordan).


Read the arcticle I linked.


Hamas.


I did'nt know Hamas has a UN veto.


Hamas in Gaza. What percentage of the West Bank is "settled"- 3%? Admittedly if we are to include under military observation/control then that number could reach 40%. But then I have never thought that the settlements were a good idea to be honest if people are going to push for a two-state solution- but then again I have always thought that the two-state solution was a bad one too and have always preferred the bi-national one state solution.

They should have listened to Habib Bourguiba back in 1965 in my opinion too.

Hamas is actually the ones pushing for a palestinian right of return (which would basically make it a 1 bi-national state solution.

Read the arcticle I posted, I'll repost it http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2011/09/22/palestine_israel_occupation/index.html

The settlements are a bad idea if your interested in peace, but thats not what the Israeli government is interested in, they are interested in having all of palestine.

[ComradeMan]

Hamas is also one of the biggest welfare and social providers in gaza, I don't know about the stuff your talking about here, but I'd like to see sources.

You make an unsourced comment and then demand sources? Okay articles on Hamas interfering/seizing aid:


http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/02/20092416031770359.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7869704.stm
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3504227,00.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/04/un-says-hamas-seized-aid_n_163834.html

As for Hamas' funding- sure, they get lots of money from donations and charities, especially from within the Islamic world as well as through "front" organisations in the EU and US. This does not change that the vast majority of vital humanitarian aid comes from elsewhere, even Israel and that the IDF (2011) were taking in about 300 truck loads of humanitarian aid per day. It also does not change the fact that they engage in terrorist/bellicose activities. They are not stupid- they know they need the support of the people in Gaza and will only have this if they also engage in social welfare programmes etc. Even the Nazis had the Nationalsozialistische Volkswohlfahrt (NSV).


Israel wants to have ALL of palestine, including Gaza.

That's a blatant lie. If that were the case there would have been no Oslo accords, no offers throughout the years and no Palestinian Authority.


Hamas is actually the ones pushing for a palestinian right of return (which would basically make it a 1 bi-national state solution.

More lies. Hamas does not recognise the "Zionist Entity" whatsoever and is dedicated to creating a single Islamic (shariah law) state over all the territory of "Palestine"- i.e. the complete destruction of the state of Israel.


The settlements are a bad idea if your interested in peace, but thats not what the Israeli government is interested in, they are interested in having all of palestine.

Public and political opinion in Israel itself is divided but you keep presenting Israel as if it were some monolithic block which it is not. The Israeli Supreme Court itself has ordered the freezes on construction, the removal of illegal settlements and the evacuation of settlers.

There are other issues though with the settlements, and as usual it comes down to economics. The settlements bring in an estimated $500 million of goods, provided employment for tens of thousands of Palestinians up until 2010 when the PA banned Palestinians from working for "Jewish" settlements which provoked anger from those very Palestinian workers.
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/Palestinian-Ban-on-Working-in-Settlements-Creates-Dilemma-for-Laborers--93682569.html

[RGacky3]

You make an unsourced comment

Do you doubt that Hamas is one of the largest provider of welfare?

andway, from your sources

"Ahmed al-Kurd, the Hamas government's social affairs minister, confirmed that the aid had been seized.
He said it should be distributed to a wider section of the Gaza population and not only those who hold refugee status and benefit from Unrwa assistance."


It also does not change the fact that they engage in terrorist/bellicose activities.

They did, as DOES Israel ...


This does not change that the vast majority of vital humanitarian aid comes from elsewhere, even Israel and that the IDF (2011) were taking in about 300 truck loads of humanitarian aid per day.

A lot of that aid is to aid the security forces of palestine to stop terrorism.


That's a blatant lie. If that were the case there would have been no Oslo accords, no offers throughout the years and no Palestinian Authority.


No, of coarse Israel would use diplomatic means as well, also offers? Like what offers? offers to withdraw settlements? End the occupation? End the blockaid? When?


More lies. Hamas does not recognise the "Zionist Entity" whatsoever and is dedicated to creating a single Islamic (shariah law) state over all the territory of "Palestine"- i.e. the complete destruction of the state of Israel.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/05/30/us-palestinians-israel-hamas-idUSTRE64T2AM20100530

In July 2009, Khaled Meshal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Meshal), Hamas's political bureau chief, stated Hamas's willingness to cooperate with a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict which included a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_borders), provided that Palestinian refugees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees) be given the right to return (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return) to Israel and that East Jerusalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem) be recognized as the new state's capital.


Public and political opinion in Israel itself is divided but you keep presenting Israel as if it were some monolithic block which it is not. The Israeli Supreme Court itself has ordered the freezes on construction, the removal of illegal settlements and the evacuation of settlers.

There are other issues though with the settlements, and as usual it comes down to economics. The settlements bring in an estimated $500 million of goods, provided employment for tens of thousands of Palestinians up until 2010 when the PA banned Palestinians from working for "Jewish" settlements which provoked anger from those very Palestinian workers.


I'm talking aout the Israeli right wing government now.

As for your second paragraph ... yeah, the settlements give work to the palestinians, they are just like the "job creators" in the US, they take their land, then give them jobs working it, I'm pretty sure if you took a survay in palestine the people would'nt be to positive about hte settlements.

[Princess Luna]

This is coming from the same organazation that took up "protecting" the border between Palestine and Egypt, back in febuary while the egyptian military was distracted. Fuck them and the horse they rode in on.

[ComradeMan]

double post- please delete.

[ComradeMan]

This is coming from the same organazation that took up "protecting" the border between Palestine and Egypt, back in febuary while the egyptian military was distracted. Fuck them and the horse they rode in on.

Then there's also the little known incident involving the torturing of Eritrean refuguees in 2010 with allegations as serious as rape, torture and organ trafficking.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4005541,00.html

http://www.eritreanlawsociety.net/DOCUMENTS/Hamas%20torturing%20250%20Eritreans%20in%20Egypt.p df

[Iron Felix]

No one in here should be for a Jewish state. Just like no one here should be for a Christian State, or an Islamic state. Are we not leftists?

Now, when Hamas tries to liberate Palestine from the American-Zionist occupation, it's called terrorism. When in '47 UN divided Palestine into 2, Israel was given 56 percent of the territory, although out of 2 million people living in Palestine, only 600,000 were Jews. Besides that, half of the population of the Israeli half was Palestinian. So what did Israel do? Raise an army, burn 500 Palestinian villages, seize another 500, and drive 700,000 Palestinians into tents in Palestine's neighbouring countries and massacre thousands of children and women that wouldn't leave their homes(the villages would be surrounded from 3 sides, leaving space for Palestinians to flee. Sometimes they wouldn't flee, so the village would be annhilated.). What did Israel call this? "National Liberation". Ethnic cleansing and genocide is called "National Liberation", but when it's done in former-Yugoslavia it's called what it is. Western hypocricy.

Remember when in 2006 Gilad Shalit was kidnapped by Hamas? An enemy combatant, kidnapped by by Hamas, what a travesty and outrage! Or maybe not. A day before Shalit was kidnapped, two Gazan civilians were kidnapped by the IDF, to be held in Israeli torture chambers with thousands of other Palestinians and Gazans held without charges, hence kidnapped. But the Media won't report that, would they?

Regarding Hamas-Fatah relations, look no further than 2006. America and Israel tried to rig the elections in Fatah's favor, but they failed, so they armed Fatah militants with funds stolen from Hamas and tried to engineer a military coup. Didn't work, thus the siege.

Why blame Hamas of terrorism, if you won't blame Israel of terrorism? Is not bombing schools, hospitals, shelters, apartment complexes and such in order to demoralise the Gazan population not exactly what terrorism is? Are not Israeli actions in South Lebanon terrorism? Is not being terrorised by Israeli military thugs a daily fact of life for Palestinians?

[ComradeMan]

when Hamas tries to liberate Palestine from the American-Zionist occupation, it's called terrorism.

Being liberated by Hamas is a contradiction in terms.


and drive 700,000 Palestinians into tents in Palestine's neighbouring countries

The Arab leaders appealed to the Palestinians to leave because they were sure of a quick and easy victory when they unanimously attacked Israel in disregard of the UN resolution of 1947.


and massacre thousands of children and women that wouldn't leave their homes(the villages would be surrounded from 3 sides, leaving space for Palestinians to flee.

Could you source this please?

I think you are referring to the 1948 War. The official stats state a total of about 800 people. Of course there were also massacres of Jews such as Kfar Etzion where surrendering about 120-150 Jewish defenders were killed by Arab forces and the attack on the Hassadah Medical Convoy in which about 80 unarmed medics were killed. The killings carried out by the Irgun were widely condemned by the Haganah, the Rabbinate and the Jewish Agency.

Blah, blah, blah....

But yet again you won't actually talk about Hamas will you? :rolleyes:

[PhoenixAsh]

O...you mean Irgun which was fully integrated within the IDF?
Wasn't Begin the commander of the Irgun?
And doesn't the state of Israel regularly commemorate the Irgun still and allows official monuments and commemorative plaques and what not to be erected for it?
In fact...wasn't Irgun the establishing force for what eventually became the Likud party?

Yeaaahh....but Hamas is bad.

[EvilRedGuy]

The great thing about being a Communist is that you can see 'Fuck You' to all evils.
Fuck Israel
Fuck Hamas
Fuck Nationalism
Fuck Zionism
Fuck Fascism
Fuck Racism
Fuck Gaddafi
Fuck Libyan Rebels
Fuck traitor users on RevLeft who ruins this place.

Fuck everything that has nothing to do with Communism.

[ComradeMan]

O...you mean Irgun which was fully integrated within the IDF? Wasn't Begin the commander of the Irgun?
And doesn't the state of Israel regularly commemorate the Irgun still and allows official monuments and commemorative plaques and what not to be erected for it? In fact...wasn't Irgun the establishing force for what eventually became the Likud party?

Yes, the same Irgun and not something I would support, but then Umkhonto we Sizwe who carried out terrorist activities were merged into the South African regular army too. It doesn't change the fact that at the time the attacks were condemned with widespread by revulsion from the "Jewish" side.


Yeaaahh....but Hamas is bad.

This is where your hypocrisy shines out. I don't condone the massacring of anyone- all I am doing is placing things within their historical context and trying to find out and discuss the facts. I have always stated that until both sides drop their "eye-for-an-eye" mentality the situation will never be resolved. On the other hand you, who accuse me of using tu quoque arguments, actually defend Hamas for example by... err... basically using tu quoque arguments. :confused:

[manic expression]

Yes, the same Irgun and not something I would support, but then Umkhonto we Sizwe who carried out terrorist activities were merged into the South African regular army too. It doesn't change the fact that at the time the attacks were condemned with widespread by revulsion from the "Jewish" side.
Please tell me you didn't just compare the Irgun to the MK. The MK was fighting racist apartheid that was systematically murdering civilians...the Irgun was a group that bombed hotels in order to establish a racist state that engaged in genocide as a matter of course.

A much better comparison: the Irgun and the Purified National Party.

After all, after the UN arms embargo against apartheid South Africa came into effect, only two countries continued to sell the racist state arms: Taiwan and (no surprise) Israel. Racists of a feather stick together.


This is where your hypocrisy shines out. I don't condone the massacring of anyone- all I am doing is placing things within their historical context and trying to find out and discuss the facts. I have always stated that until both sides drop their "eye-for-an-eye" mentality the situation will never be resolved. On the other hand you, who accuse me of using tu quoque arguments, actually defend Hamas for example by... err... basically using tu quoque arguments. :confused:
It's not hypocrisy and it's not "eye-for-an-eye", it's quite consistent: every nation has a right to defend itself from wanton oppression and brutality. Hamas is exercising this right when it resists Zionist murder.

That doesn't mean Hamas is awesome in every respect, or that everything it does is just jiffy, it simply means that when it resists Israeli aggression, it is more than justified in doing so.

[ComradeMan]

Please tell me you didn't just compare the Irgun to the MK. The MK was fighting racist apartheid that was systematically murdering civilians...the Irgun was a group that bombed hotels in order to establish a racist state that engaged in genocide as a matter of course.

The MK also carried out bombing campaigns against civilians and was criticised for its torture and execution camps.

The Irgun broke away from the Haganah early on and followed a different strain of "Revisionist Zionism". However the Irgun originated as a defense movement to protect Jewish areas against Arab attacks and was retaliatory in nature. The Irgun were frequently condemned on all sides and where not a mainstream organisation at all. Anyway I am not going down this little road either, I am not going to defend the Irgun but you need to get your facts straight too.


After all, after the UN arms embargo against apartheid South Africa came into effect, only two countries continued to sell the racist state arms: Taiwan and (no surprise) Israel. Racists of a feather stick together.

Interesting how the Wiki page constantly notes Israel in this affair but makes no mention of all the countries and persons who circumvented the embargo in clever ways. No mention of France? It's also rather redundant considering the fact that they had acquired enough arms, machinery, tools and know-how to become a major arms exporter anyway. The South African military airforce had Mirage jets and also a manufacturing license. :rolleyes:


It's not hypocrisy and it's not "eye-for-an-eye", it's quite consistent: every nation has a right to defend itself from wanton oppression and brutality. Hamas is exercising this right when it resists Zionist murder.

By being wanton oppressors and brutal? The Irgun probably claimed they had the right too when resisting Arab attacks.

[W1N5T0N]

you want freedoms, you have to concede to others too...

and palestina is in a arguably bad position, they should try not to alienate the states that support them, and build some international diplomatic credit.

:laugh:

[manic expression]

The MK also carried out bombing campaigns against civilians and was criticised for its torture and execution camps.
Criticized by whom? Yeah, defenders of apartheid, who were kind of busy torturing and brutalizing almost a quarter of Africa at the time. The MK was fighting a monster and defending countless African communities from horror, their struggle was progressive and it was necessary.

What was the Irgun doing? Buttering up Palestine for full-out ethnic cleansing, that's what they were doing.


The Irgun broke away from the Haganah early on and followed a different strain of "Revisionist Zionism". However the Irgun originated as a defense movement to protect Jewish areas against Arab attacks and was retaliatory in nature. The Irgun were frequently condemned on all sides and where not a mainstream organisation at all. Anyway I am not going down this little road either, I am not going to defend the Irgun but you need to get your facts straight too.
So "not mainstream" that they were integrated into the IDF?


Interesting how the Wiki page constantly notes Israel in this affair but makes no mention of all the countries and persons who circumvented the embargo in clever ways. No mention of France? It's also rather redundant considering the fact that they had acquired enough arms, machinery, tools and know-how to become a major arms exporter anyway. The South African military airforce had Mirage jets and also a manufacturing license. :rolleyes:
It's because Taiwan and Israel were the only two countries to openly defy the embargo. Not only does this tell us how much they wanted to give aid to their fellow apartheid-murderers but also how little they care for any sense of decency and international community.


By being wanton oppressors and brutal? The Irgun probably claimed they had the right too when resisting Arab attacks.
It's not wanton and brutal, it's doing whatever one can to resist Zionist massacres. Palestinian resistance groups have always said that they'd LOVE to use conventional military means, they'd love to have tanks and attack helicopters and tank destroyers and more accurate artillery batteries. They're all for it. Yet they can't because they have no access to such things, and so they're forced to use what they can to defend themselves.

The Irgun can claim whatever they want all they want, they were murderers who were trying to carry out genocide.

[ComradeMan]

Criticized by whom? Yeah, defenders of apartheid,

No, by the post-apartheid Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe#Torture_and_executions

So shut the fuck up. :lol:

I'm not defending the Irgun, I am pointing out the inaccuracy in your assessment.


It's not wanton and brutal, it's doing whatever one can to resist Zionist massacres. Palestinian resistance groups have always said that they'd LOVE to use conventional military means, they'd love to have tanks and attack helicopters and tank destroyers and more accurate artillery batteries. They're all for it. Yet they can't because they have no access to such things, and so they're forced to use what they can to defend themselves.

Re Hamas- does that include torture, rape and organ trafficking as was alleged by an Italian NGO? How is that defending the Palestinian people? Or, as has been alleged, misappropriating funds and goods aimed at helping the ordinary Palestinians? Why not ask an Arab-Israeli where they would rather live, "evil, apartheid, zionist" Israel or the beacon of light that is Gaza under Hamas.... I wonder what they would reply? Come off it- there is no fucking defense for Hamas and their shenanigans.

[tir1944]

Why not ask an Arab-Israeli where they would rather live, "evil, apartheid, zionist" Israel or the beacon of light that is Gaza under Hamas
It's not Hamas that's blockading Gaza...:rolleyes:

[ComradeMan]

It's not Hamas that's blockading Gaza...:rolleyes:

Chicken and egg arguments- Why is Gaza blockaded then? Who shall we believe?

But at the same time it is Hamas who have been accused of persistent and systematic abuses of Human Rights against Palestinians who they say they represent. By the way, they are not in any way, shape or form a "leftist" organisation either.

[tir1944]

The Blockade is still very much in place...and it effects all residents of WB,but only some of them fire rockets which barely cause any harm anyway.

[ComradeMan]

The Blockade is still very much in place...and it effects all residents of WB,but only some of them fire rockets which barely cause any harm anyway.

Unless it hits your house or you happen to be killed.

"Rockets and mortars have killed 16 people within Israel up to 2008.[58] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#cite_note-theisraelproject.org-57) Most of those killed were civilians, including four children.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#cite_note-ai-3) In addition, hundreds of Israelis have been injured.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#cite_note-BBC_Q.26A-0) Injuries have also occurred mainly among civilians, several of whom were injured very seriously.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#cite_note-ai-3)

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#cite_note-ai-3)
The projectiles have also killed six Palestinians and injured dozens more. On June 8, 2005, rockets fired at the Israeli settlement of Ganei Tal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganei_Tal) killed two Palestinian workers and one Chinese worker in a packing plant. On August 2, 2005, a rocket apparently launched by Islamic Jihad killed a 6-year-old boy and his father in Beit Hanoun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beit_Hanoun).[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#cite_note-HRW-16) On December 26, 2008 a mortar aimed at Israel killed two Palestinian girls in the Gaza Strip, aged 5 and 12.[59]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#cite_note-58)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#Casualties

[RGacky3]

Chicken and egg arguments- Why is Gaza blockaded then? Who shall we believe?


The same reason Ireland was blockaided? or Mexico? Or Colombia? Or Chechnya.

Oh wait, they wern't blockaided, because thats an idiotic solution to terrorism, especially when its slowed down and basically stopped, thats obviously not why its blockaided.

[ComradeMan]

The same reason Ireland

The IRA were an illegal organisation in the Republic of Ireland and Sinn Feinn/IRA were never the government or authority de facto or de jure in the Republic of Ireland. Nor do I believe were any terrorist group the government of Mexico or Colombia. Chechnya is different- no it wasn't blockaded it was completely invaded by Russia in the Second Chechen War :rolleyes:.

And you talk about false equivalencies.... :lol:

[Iron Felix]

Economic terorrism, that's why? Why was Iraq sanctioned after the Gulf War for a decade? These Iraqi sanctions, by the way, caused about a million and a half deaths, about a million of those children. And we wonder why 9/11 happened. Then the Americans had to invade Iraq and kill another million, just to prove the guys who hijacked the airplanes that they were right.

When America poisons livestock in Cuba, it's not terrorism. When Israel kidnaps thousands of Arabs and Iranians, and assasinates politicians and scientists in Iran, it's not terrorism. But when Hamas, the sole group that actually gives a shit fights back against Israeli occupiers, it's OUTRAGEOUS AND SICK TERRORISM!

No. I cheer for every killing of Israeli soldiers in Palestine. I cheer for every killing of American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. Same as how I cheer for every dead Russian soldier in Chechnya, and I lost childhood friends in Chechnya. Death to occupiers.

I say fuck you, ComradeMan, because you're a Zionist propoganda tool. Why should we argue with a traitor? I won't post here anymore.

[Nox]

The great thing about being a Communist is that you can see 'Fuck You' to all evils.
Fuck Israel
Fuck Hamas
Fuck Nationalism
Fuck Zionism
Fuck Fascism
Fuck Racism
Fuck Gaddafi
Fuck Libyan Rebels
Fuck traitor users on RevLeft who ruins this place.

Fuck everything that has nothing to do with Communism.

You forgot NATO ;)

[ComradeMan]

When Israel kidnaps thousands of Arabs and Iranians, and assasinates politicians and scientists in Iran, it's not terrorism.

Could we have a verified source for all of these "thousands of Arabs and Iranians" you allege Israel has kidnapped please ? otherwise you may be accused of just blatantly making things up. I'm not quite sure how Israel would manage that one to be honest.


But when Hamas, the sole group that actually gives a shit fights back against Israeli occupiers, it's OUTRAGEOUS AND SICK TERRORISM!.

Hamas is the sole group that cares is it? By the way when Israel points to the shortcomings of other states as a defense that is usually not accepted as an argument but it seems it's fine if it's Hamas.... :rolleyes:

What role did those Eritreans have in the Israel-Palestine conflict by the way? Could you explain that?

[LOLseph Stalin]

Is somebody seriously defending Israel?

You know, for awhile I defended Israel, but I was pressured into doing so. Zionists really have a clever tactic of getting people on their side, all they have to do is pull the holocaust and Anti-semitism cards. That's exactly what they did to me. I didn't really want to be viewed as an Anti-semite so that pressure was on me.

[Smyg]

You forgot NATO ;)

As a matter of fact, fuck everything that's not me. :D

[manic expression]

No, by the post-apartheid Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe#Torture_and_executions

So shut the fuck up. :lol:
So tell me, how was the MK to have "due process" when it was fighting apartheid? Submit permit applications to the apartheid state to carry out its activites? :lol:


I'm not defending the Irgun, I am pointing out the inaccuracy in your assessment.
My assessment is that the Irgun were in support of genocide, which is an historical fact.


Re Hamas- does that include torture, rape and organ trafficking as was alleged by an Italian NGO? How is that defending the Palestinian people? Or, as has been alleged, misappropriating funds and goods aimed at helping the ordinary Palestinians? Why not ask an Arab-Israeli where they would rather live, "evil, apartheid, zionist" Israel or the beacon of light that is Gaza under Hamas.... I wonder what they would reply? Come off it- there is no fucking defense for Hamas and their shenanigans.
I'll repeat myself: in fighting Zionist oppression, Hamas is more than justified not only by the rights of self-defense but also by any vaguely progressive viewpoint.

By the way, Gaza "under Hamas" is a vacuous cage because of Israel, not because of Hamas. You might as well say "gee wiz most Poles would rather live outside the Warsaw Ghetto than inside so I guess the Jewish insurgents are really the problem"...

[Rafiq]

I'm so puzzled. What's so appealing about Hamas to so many users here? Why are they naturally defended as if they are on our side anyway?

You fools didn't learn from Iran what would happen to the communists if we cooperated with Islamists.

How's a say our Comrades in Palestine stop being lapdogs for Hamas and create a genuine independent proletarian organization? We should be competing with the Hamas rather than cooperating with them.

If Israel wins it is a blow to the working class. If Hamas wins it is, again, a blow to the working class.

[Comrade Jandar]

Comrade Man, may I ask a question? I don't know how else to ask this but are you of Jewish descent yourself? It would help me to better understand the context of your argument. Again, please understand that I'm not trying to be racist.

[Comrade Jandar]

I'm so puzzled. What's so appealing about Hamas to so many users here? Why are they naturally defended as if they are on our side anyway?

You fools didn't learn from Iran what would happen to the communists if we cooperated with Islamists.

How's a say our Comrades in Palestine stop being lapdogs for Hamas and create a genuine independent proletarian organization? We should be competing with the Hamas rather than cooperating with them.

If Israel wins it is a blow to the working class. If Hamas wins it is, again, a blow to the working class.

So do you not believe that leftists should support national liberations?

[EvilRedGuy]

As a matter of fact, fuck everything that's not me. :D


Everything that isn't you isn't Communist, so yeah...

[W1N5T0N]

ehm. playing videogames i hope is not object of marxist analysis? :laugh:

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I think it's a tactical error on Hamas' part.

Though i'm not a fan of a two-state solution in the long-run, Palestinian statehood in the interim, medium-term period would at least allow the political development and education of the Palestinian people, to a point where they could more effectively oppose Zionism. It would also take away the legitimacy of settlement building.

For me, the least bad option is for an interim Palestinian state, spawning multi-party 'liberal democracy', if you like, whereby radical parties will be able to gain a legitimate foothold amongst the Palestinian people.

It's a defensive measure, sure, but in the long-run it could help to turn ordinary Israeli popular opinion against their own government's vitriolic, savage actions. That's something that's not often talked about in the left and it's to our shame that, often, we lump all Israelis in with Zionism (though it's true that many of them do support it). I don't think the Palestinians can win without the support of ordinary Israelis.

It's a long-term war, but this would be a good battle for the Palestinians to win.

[Rafiq]

So do you not believe that leftists should support national liberations?

No, not all of them.

[Die Rote Fahne]

How Palestinian Authority's UN statehood bid endangers Palestinian rights (http://http://electronicintifada.net/blog/ali-abunimah/how-palestinian-authoritys-un-statehood-bid-endangers-palestinian-rights) by Ali Abunimah.

[GreenCommunism]

You guys should remember what will happen to islamist if a communist win government.

[PhoenixAsh]

HAMAS is a nationalist liberation movement and NOT a workers liberation movement (article 12 of its charter) and it is anti-communist in nature (article 25 of its charter) both based on religion and racism.

As such it does not deserve any other supporty form the revolutionary left other than the recognition that every nation (as in group of people) has the right to self defence when faced with an aggressor. HAMAS is a reactionary expression of that right and is opposing a reactionary aggressor.




This aggressor however is responsible for the rise and popularity of HAMAS. Not only by the situation it has created but because of its own anti-leftwing revolutionary policies against both unionised workers and communists. In 1980 20% of the Palestinians were unionised. They were advocating integration within Israel in order to create a population majority to force a binational state and overturn the Jewish nature of Israel...through Shin Beth Israel both allowed fundamentalist organisations to exist unopposed and allowed them to grow. In order to counter the coordination and cooperation of Israeli workers and Palestinian workers in Maki they heavilly financed both within the state Israel and outside the state of Israel anti-communist Arab community leaders and politicians.

[ComradeMan]

HAMAS is a nationalist liberation movement and NOT a workers liberation movement (article 12 of its charter) and it is anti-communist in nature (article 25 of its charter) both based on religion and racism. As such it does not deserve any other supporty form the revolutionary left other than the recognition that every nation (as in group of people) has the right to self defence when faced with an aggressor. HAMAS is a reactionary expression of that right and is opposing a reactionary aggressor.

Finally we agree on something...


This aggressor however is responsible for the rise and popularity of HAMAS. Not only by the situation it has created but because of its own anti-leftwing revolutionary policies against both unionised workers and communists. In 1980 20% of the Palestinians were unionised. They were advocating integration within Israel in order to create a population majority to force a binational state and overturn the Jewish nature of Israel...through Shin Beth Israel both allowed fundamentalist organisations to exist unopposed and allowed them to grow. In order to counter the coordination and cooperation of Israeli workers and Palestinian workers in Maki they heavilly financed both within the state Israel and outside the state of Israel anti-communist Arab community leaders and politicians.

Well then that's another good reason why the "left" should not support them.... ;)