Biosocialism

[GreenCommunism]

http://webs.ono.com/denna/The%20Biosocialist%20Manifesto%20V.1.0.pdf

[citizen of industry]

How is it not compatible with "socialism"? Why the need for bio/eco socialism?

[thefinalmarch]

LOL what the fuck is this?

[citizen of industry]

Yeah, and why are you dumping a 105 page pdf file on me? That's akin to me starting a thread with only a link to the Marxist internet archive. You got something to say, say it.

[ComradeMan]

How bizarre... didn't have time to read all of it. Perhaps you could give us a synposis and state your own take. I must admit as I saw profuse Bible quotes, Aztec temples, Hindu deities and a lot of pseudo-mystic language about "Gaia" etc (although I am interested in the Gaia Theory) it did turn me off a bit...

[Nox]

on December 21st 2012




MUSLIMS, HINDUS, CHRISTIANS, NATIONAL SOCIALISTS, COMMUNISTS AND
ANARCHISTS ONLY UNITED WE CAN DEFEAT THE FORCES OF DARKNESS




The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.


Is this shit for real?

[GPDP]

This is either the weirdest piece of political propaganda I've ever seen, or, judging from the cover art, it's the Beastmaster/Fist of the North Star crossover the world has been waiting for.

[GPDP]

HAHAHAHAHAHA oh god, I just skimmed through the entire document.

It's basically two Dragonball Z/Sci-Fi nerds with waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on their hands writing a manifesto about the Gorilians suppressing us Saiyans, and we need to overthrow the evil Capitalist Leviathan and establish the Federation of Light. Cue a fuckton of religious mumbo-jumbo, and the worst prose I've ever seen.

Also, get this: free love, cloning, genetic engineering, but FUCK gay people and transgenders, they have no place in Planet Vegeta.

What. The. Fuck. Am. I. Reading.

[citizen of industry]

HAHAHAHAHAHA oh god, I just skimmed through the entire document.

It's basically two Dragonball Z/Sci-Fi nerds with waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on their hands writing a manifesto about the Gorilians suppressing us Saiyans, and we need to overthrow the evil Capitalist Leviathan and establish the Federation of Light. Cue a fuckton of religious mumbo-jumbo, and the worst prose I've ever seen.

Also, get this: free love, cloning, genetic engineering, but FUCK gay people and transgenders, they have no place in Planet Vegeta.

What. The. Fuck. Am. I. Reading.

I guess that answers my first question

[thefinalmarch]

Babe, the Valiant Pig

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4Lvx62cc4hM/R7QNvcqJ3mI/AAAAAAAAAOs/xFkUjUO_b9M/S227/Cerdito_babe.gif
Friend of Cosmic Communism


Are You Proud of Being a Homo Predator?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4Lvx62cc4hM/SA8Tf5Y2LjI/AAAAAAAAAlA/I_k1tE7Vp7E/S1600-R/jamon3.jpg
http://cosmiccommunism.blogspot.com/

[GreenCommunism]

Biosocialism is a religion in the soviet union which was formed in 1933, it became public in 1997. it was refused political party status because Russian officials considered it a religion.

It is weird but very interesting, i recommend skipping parts of it when it is too long talking about religion or aliens ( some people just can't stomach it) . Then reading it back again

In the last 3 years i have switched back and forth psychologically the line of those 3 organisation www.pcq.qc.ca www.egalitereconciliation.fr www.llco.org . I find myself being spat on by all of those groups . I found this situation extremely distressing emotionally. In fact, the communist party of Québec might have to lose his status as a political party in April due to new laws requiring 100 members to exist. this saddens me alot.

Now i don't want to know what you think of third worldist, or egalitereconciliation in which mysticism+eschatology+anti-zionism = new antisemitism. I condemn the bullshit they say about jews (quoting their religious text in a negative light, they say in reaction to wilder's fitna and so on) .

Fact is, since i have gotten that link, i have been reading it with a passion, i cannot find myself disagreeing with anything in that text. Except what is unprovable of course, they also use weird or laughable words sometime. but it all makes sense to me.

This text seems like the serious answer to my problem, of switching between those 3 organisations all the time and feeling distressed about not being able to fully believe the party line. i am at page 57. I agree with basicly everything so far. i'm quite happy of my discovery :)

[thefinalmarch]

Fact is, since i have gotten that link, i have been reading it with a passion, i cannot find myself disagreeing with anything in that text. Except what is unprovable of course, they also use weird or laughable words sometime. but it all makes sense to me.

This text seems like the serious answer to my problem, of switching between those 3 organisations all the time and feeling distressed about not being able to fully believe the party line. i am at page 57. I agree with basicly everything so far. i'm quite happy of my discovery :)
http://civs.ru/uploads/images/3/5/7/3/91/453d7b55cf.jpg

[GreenCommunism]

To be clear, Homo is about Homo erectus, not homosexuality. as for Gays and transgender. I am not quite sure what is their plan to achieve their new man, but from other similar website i recall the perfect man being actually a transgender person ridden of most of humanity's evil. Thus i guess truly creating a society without sexism or homophobia.

[GPDP]

To be clear, Homo is about Homo erectus, not homosexuality. as for Gays and transgender. I am not quite sure what is their plan to achieve their new man, but from other similar website i recall the perfect man being actually a transgender person ridden of most of humanity's evil. Thus i guess truly creating a society without sexism or homophobia.

The document explicitly states homosexuality is not encouraged in their society, nor will they provide transgender operations. They want to enforce the "nuclear family" of a man, a woman, and two children (they want strict population control).

I dunno what existential or political identity crisis you're going through right now, but for your own sake, I suggest you look elsewhere. Nothing they say that isn't batshit insane is remarkable in the slightest.

[ComradeMan]

Have just looked at some rather worrying sections.... my advice.... drop this like a rattlesnake... i.e. very quickly.

[GreenCommunism]

The document explicitly states homosexuality is not encouraged in their society, nor will they provide transgender operations. They want to enforce the "nuclear family" of a man, a woman, and two children (they want strict population control).

Where does it say that? since when is homosexuality encouraged in society anyway. Homosexuality is something someone is born with. You call having 2 children strict population control? i think most occidental nations have less than 2 children by couple. some countries population are going down.

What type of family do you propose? they also plan to build large orphanage so that everyone of those child can have the love they deserve. I have absolutly not seen anything that points to violent population control. Moreover, they want everyone in western society to turn vegan and send the extra food to countries where people are dying of hunger, that is far from population control.

[GreenCommunism]

it's more like a religion with prophecy that you cannot prove. I find the whole text so far ( still at page 57) to be completly in line with my belief. Unless one of you can point out something extremely wrong and horrible i think that from now on i will stick with this text as the basis of my ideology. There is already a man Called Israel Adam Shamir who is arguing for a type of spiritual communism.

[GreenCommunism]

At some point, there is a divide between good and evil or something. and it names sodomy. That may be why you find it homophobic, i do not know their intent, but in my opinion ( and if it isn't their opinion i will write my own book) if sodomy was so great, why so few woman like it? In fact, i've seen in a quebec movie the following scene: man is angry at his son for being an homosexual, throws a comment about anal sex, his wife tells him, well you had anal sex with me. man is like, wuuut that's different!

I guess they suggest homosexual should use oral sex? meh, i am not here to tell anyone what to do.

The sexual selection we do when searching for a couple always select the best specimens from all the human races. We do not need to focus on the promotion of any race in particular since all races are divine. The fusion of human races creates beautiful individuals.

The manipulation and misunderstanding of the Bible by Churchianity has created a death oriented culture. According to Church priests life is only a punishment we must endure for our intrinsic evil, a valley of tears, a filthy world of flesh and sins in our way to Heaven. Contrary to all logical reason, these undertakers defend that "true life" starts when we die.

The Federation of Light will restore the life oriented culture of the ancient civilizations where love, happiness and joy were the goals of humanity. For biosocialism this life is the only life that exists, when we die our body and individual consciousness disintegrate and return to Source, we transform into pure basic energy ready to materialize again into new life forms.

[teflon_john]

dude, are you okay? when was the last time you went outside?

[Tim Cornelis]

This is some weird shit.

Why does the left always attract these kind of nutcases?

[GreenCommunism]

dude, are you okay? when was the last time you went outside?

They use cultural references as symbols all the way through. When you guys learned about radical leftist ideology, did you agree with everything at first? were you not still a liberal or a conservative and not yet convinced of everything?

[RGacky3]

They use cultural references as symbols all the way through. When you guys learned about radical leftist ideology, did you agree with everything at first? were you not still a liberal or a conservative and not yet convinced of everything?

Yeah, but using cultural references and wierd ideology mixing is'nt gonna convince anyone, logic, reason and clear arguments with a clear narrative will.

[GreenCommunism]

The information given there is uncensored information from the author's ideology. I plan on rewriting part of it to put it into a coherent whole without aliens,weird terms and so on, then perhaps show people this book after.

[ComradeMan]

The information given there is uncensored information from the author's ideology. I plan on rewriting part of it to put it into a coherent whole without aliens,weird terms and so on, then perhaps show people this book after.

Revisionist! :lol:

[OHumanista]

Yes communism is all about worshipping an omnipotent merciless god and learning form the alien masters. :rolleyes:

[#FF0000]

guys in case y'all are new, greencommunism has been literally insane for a long time and is one of those people who throws a baby fit if you laugh at the Pick Up Artist scene.

[Astarte]

For advanced civilizations oriented to service to others, malevolent species like humans are extremely
disgusting, they see us as evil demons and they cannot stand our barbarian culture of carnivorism,
violence, pornography and homosexuality.



Article 118. Sodomy is an abominable, bestial and unnatural practice, it is the gate to pederasty,
sadomasochism, rape and zoophilia. Homosexuality will not be encouraged in the FL


Article 127. Transgender Surgery will be strictly forbidden for the good of the pacient since persons
change with time and can repent later of the decision. They will never be a real other sex no matter all
the patches they put on. Liposuctions will be only used for persons with morbid obesity the rest will
control their weight with the spiritual diet and practicing sports.

Pseudo-Mysticism aside, seems like the GBLT community are "the new Jews". Fuck this piece of shit.

[GreenCommunism]

guys in case y'all are new, greencommunism has been literally insane for a long time and is one of those people who throws a baby fit if you laugh at the Pick Up Artist scene.

the pick up artist scene divides men into categories of alpha and beta male. It is a scene made by sociopath expert at manipulation. One such thing as a pick-up artist is inevitably a sociopath if he considers himself a full time artist.

What i was whining about, is how sex is treated in this place. This place probably has it's share of nerds yet when i talk about love shyness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love-shyness

People spit on me, like it was high school all over again, then again i should verify the age of the people saying that. Love shyness is a serious problem in society.

Pedophilia gets serious discussion here. but when you talk about love shyness, people laugh at you. this is high school, with 14 year old kids arguing to remove laws that protects them from rape.

Yes communism is all about worshipping an omnipotent merciless god and learning form the alien masters.
There is no omnipotent god in this book, you misread, said god is believed to be an alien. The point is basicly new age stuff that we must learn to have enough wisdom to meet aliens, and contribute to their physical and spiritual evolution.

[Ocean Seal]

They need to make this shit into a cartoon.

[GreenCommunism]

Uh, i had a post but this forum keeps logging me off and destroys my post. i will start over again. If this ideology is Homophobic , then i am a revisionist. However, Sexual morality is not bullshit in todays world. look at how much rape there is, and especially, inform yourself about the number of pedophile victim. it's very scary when you think that 33% of pedophile victim perpetuate the cycle and most pedophile have 10 victims during their life. when does it end. Now restricting rights of homosexuals, especially when men on men rape is predominantly made by heterosexual, is pretty frigging stupid.

Sodomy is not healthy in a couple in my opinion, most woman don't like it, why would a man like it because he is an homosexual. His organ is not different than ours. I believe in the right of someone to take care of his body. But just like i believe alcohol,weed, tobacco,meth,coke,heroin should be illegal and visionary plants legalized. I do believe we need to guide our population in some ways, and no , i don't think the majority of our population should try to finger themselves see if they like it. or try anal sex and stop in the middle.

I think there's some careless promotion of sexuality everywhere and this includes homosexual sexuality . Why are 12 year old children learning that their gspot is in their ass. They saw it on tv. I also saw a cartoon where a drawn jesus is asking for little boys. James bond is always surrounded by young pretty woman in every movie he has sex at least 4 times. how can children under 14 watch james bond with their parents. That in a country where jokes about pedophilia are actually illegal. it is illegal to depict pedophilia in any other manner than drama.



For advanced civilizations oriented to service to others, malevolent species like humans are extremely
disgusting, they see us as evil demons and they cannot stand our barbarian culture of carnivorism,
violence, pornography and homosexuality.

Recently it was said that the US government doesn't even use simple preventive measures to prevent jail rape in the usa. A society that tolerates male on male rape makes the whole society hell. Even so than male on female rape, because female do not tend to perpetuate the abuse as much. In fact i believe there should be alot of effort put in society to protect men and woman alike from violence. I think it's more important to put the emphasis on men for now, woman have had their times in the 1980s and up to today. In my country there were strong campaigns against rape, and domestic violence. talking against violence on men, is a taboo.

Article 118. Sodomy is an abominable, bestial and unnatural practice, it is the gate to pederasty,
sadomasochism, rape and zoophilia. Homosexuality will not be encouraged in the FL I really don't like the wording, I fail to see what studies they use. Lips are made to kiss and your genitals are made to have sex.

Do you guys know ancient greek civilisation? where in spart pederastic was an obligation? Norms change over time, fighting what was perceived as homosexuality back then was extremely justified and more than revolutionary. It was a society where there were men who thrust and others who were penetrated. And up to nowdays homosexuals are usually active or passive. they use those words themselves when they talk to each other. And nowdays fighting homosexuality is definitly reactionary.

It is the same position that i had with abortion, It was progress when it was made illegal. When woman were jumping from building to land on their stomach in order to get miscarriage, or leave their children to be eaten the wolf. They had no choice.

Transgender Surgery will be strictly forbidden for the good of the pacient since persons
change with time and can repent later of the decision. They will never be a real other sex no matter all
the patches they put on. Liposuctions will be only used for persons with morbid obesity the rest will
control their weight with the spiritual diet and practicing sports.

I condemn this.

Pseudo-Mysticism aside, seems like the GBLT community are "the new Jews". Fuck this piece of shit.

I guess one could put it that way when you look at hate crime statistics . But i think many communist in france demonstrated through their text that muslims are the new jews. In fact the accusation against them are similar ( Hidden agenda) . I see what you mean though.

[Lunatic Concept]

This thread hurts my brain to no end.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QEod3ckcQ4Y/TkpKttrJB5I/AAAAAAAAGzo/B8PYotwScpM/s400/What+the+fuck+am+I+reading.jpg

[RGacky3]

Greencommunism, maybe READ an ideological manifesto before you suscribe to it and post it on revleft.

[GreenCommunism]

dude, are you okay? when was the last time you went outside?

This is some weird shit.

Why does the left always attract these kind of nutcases?

guys in case y'all are new, greencommunism has been literally insane for a long time and is one of those people who throws a baby fit if you laugh at the Pick Up Artist scene.

You are all using words which hurts me, and makes me want to withdraw from society. Those words discourage me from going outside and stating my opinion, with my illness, it is hard to form words, and even harder to have the courage to say them and face criticism.

Search the word schizophrenia and persecution on google. all they talk about is how schizophrenics have this persecution complex. Write schizophrenics and victims and here it is.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/002203.html More than one fourth of individuals with severe mental illness (SMI) were victims of violent crime in the past year, eleven times the rate in the general population, according to a study in the August issue of Archives of General Psychiatry, one of the JAMA/Archives journals.

Prevalence

In 2004, gay, lesbian and bisexual individuals reported experiencing higher rates of
violent victimization (sexual assault, robbery, and physical assault) than heterosexual
individuals.

Gay and lesbian individuals experience victimization at a rate 2.5 times higher than
heterosexual individuals.

The rate of victimization for bisexual individuals is approximately 4 times higher than the
rate of victimization for heterosexual individuals.

Antisemites are everywhere, nobody believes you, society has not yet evolved enough to understand your oppression. Schizophrenics is the new jew.

[GreenCommunism]

Greencommunism, maybe READ an ideological manifesto before you suscribe to it and post it on revleft.

I read half of it, and i stand by it.

I know this is all bullshit conspiracy theory, but perfection of humanity to make all transgender is actually a big part of illuminati conspiracy theory, that and genetical manipulation, as well as hybridization. Which is included. This is probably the religious roots of their opposition to the transgender.

It does shows ignorance of the issues of homosexuals and so on.

If i met the people who wrote this manifesto, and convinced them to change their position on LGBT people. wouldn't you be happy?

[#FF0000]

Pedophilia gets serious discussion here. but when you talk about love shyness, people laugh at you. this is high school, with 14 year old kids arguing to remove laws that protects them from rape.

no

[Tim Cornelis]

Sodomy is not healthy in a couple in my opinion, most woman don't like it, why would a man like it because he is an homosexual.

What kind of silly logic is this? Tastes are subjective, you are pushing you subjective tastes as the default (psychological projection perhaps).

EDIT: I'm no expert, but isn't it so that males get the same feeling from anal stimulation of the prostate as females get from stimulating the g-spot? This does explain why women tend do not like it, and men do.

[#FF0000]

You are all using words which hurts me, and makes me want to withdraw from society. Those words discourage me from going outside and stating my opinion, with my illness, it is hard to form words, and even harder to have the courage to say them and face criticism.

fair nuff. sorry, guy

[GreenCommunism]

no
The fourth international wants to abolish age of consent While 16 years old girls usually get 21 year old male in poor area only for his money and to leave distressful homes.

Saudi Arabia recently had a 13 year old girl being married to a 60+ man. The king said this was the last time it would happen and that islam has to keep up with the times. Who is reactionary, the fourth international or Saudi Arabia?

Like i was saying, this place is full of fucked up kids from the inner city who want to justify fucking younger girls than their age because in our society, a very poor man without a car has little chance of having a great sexual life.

Oh, and schizophrenics by a majority do not have a satisfiable sexual life. In fact psychiatrist for a long time ignored this issue unless it was criminal. It was only brought to light when they found out that there was less complaint when they had sex. Nobody gives a fuck about the new jew.

[GreenCommunism]

fair nuff. sorry, guy
Thanks man, sorry for my hard reply.

[#FF0000]

The fourth international wants to abolish age of consent While 16 years old girls usually get 21 year old male in poor area only for his money and to leave distressful homes.

Do you have a source for that Fourth International bit, guy?


Like i was saying, this place is full of fucked up kids from the inner city who want to justify fucking younger girls than their age because in our society, a very poor man without a car has little chance of having a great sexual life. Er, this has no basis in reality. Few people around here are from the inner city and plenty of people are from rural or suburban areas. I remember you brought up the city mouse/field mouse thing before but it's really just not true.

And there were only like two or three people who posted here who ever said we should completely get rid of age of consent, and they were not popular for it.

At most, I think people would want to see it set to 16 or something, or at the very least, would like to see less harsh treatment of people who get put on a list for being 16 and possessing naked pictures of themselves or for being 17 and having sex with an 18 or 19 year old. Things like that.

What you're saying here really just isn't true and is based on some false assumptions.

[GreenCommunism]

What kind of silly logic is this? Tastes are subjective, you are pushing you subjective tastes as the default (psychological projection perhaps).

I am not pushing it. people are free to do whatever they want. But i feel there is very few feminist loving anal sex. It seems like it is submission, to submit to the fetish of the man. But then again that is just taboo and speculation
The idea that anal is something couples eventually turn to for sexual variety seems to be supported by the CDC survey, which shows the lowest numbers among those who’ve never been married and are not cohabiting, compared with those who are cohabiting, married, or divorced.

Sexuality from the catholic point of view is for reproduction, anything outside reproduction is a sin ( and Quebec knows too well how the catholic priests forced woman to have babies even if it was dangerous)

Sexuality from the protestant point of view, is for pleasure. I believe this is a wrong way to see it .

The main point of sexuality from my point of view is psychological sanity. We are not made out of woods.

Why is there so much porno in our societies? Why is there so much rape in our societies? isn't it simply the protestant attitude toward sexuality?

As long as the utility of sex is seen as pleasure like cracking up a beer. or cheap hobbies like in an economic crisis. Our society and our culture will encourage unprepared teenage sex, widespread divorce, and justify rape. No, it isn't only misogynia who is responsible for rape, even if it is a largely the most guilty.

[GreenCommunism]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/member.php?u=14286

This guy. I have seen articles too, they seem hard to find. They don't really promote that position much.

here

http://www.icl-fi.org/english/wv/876/canadasex.html

Then again Canada is different, age of consent for homosexuals is 18 and 16 for children. Their line is in favor of pornography etc. The real question is, whether a more open sexuality is revolutionary or more care in making sex is drone right is revolutionary. i think the latter.

[Queercommie Girl]

HAHAHAHAHAHA oh god, I just skimmed through the entire document.

It's basically two Dragonball Z/Sci-Fi nerds with waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on their hands writing a manifesto about the Gorilians suppressing us Saiyans, and we need to overthrow the evil Capitalist Leviathan and establish the Federation of Light. Cue a fuckton of religious mumbo-jumbo, and the worst prose I've ever seen.

Also, get this: free love, cloning, genetic engineering, but FUCK gay people and transgenders, they have no place in Planet Vegeta.

What. The. Fuck. Am. I. Reading.

You make some good points against the insane ramblings of the OP, but sci-fi and manga are actually two great forms of literature intrinsically. The Gaia Hypothesis is also an interesting serious scientific idea, (the Earth as literally an animal-like physical organism, not some kind of pseudo-mystical metaphysical god like the OP suggests) though objectively quite unlikely to be true.

I hate how people like the OP give sci-fi fans, manga fans and those with an interest in the Gaia hypothesis in a serious scientific sense (rather than pseudo-mystical stuff) a bad name.

Personally I really hate the LGBT-phobia of the OP though.

[GPDP]

GreenCommunism, I didn't know you suffer from schizophrenia. I'm sorry to hear that, and you shouldn't be berated on those terms.

However, I don't see why you get defensive when the link you posted is met with ridicule, and consequently people question why you would ever agree with such drivel. I mean, in between the scatter-brained religious mysticism, the awkward anime references, and the bizarre social conservatism regarding LGBT people, I guess there's some ok stuff in there, but like I said before, it's nothing really remarkable. Plenty of socialists and anarchists have said all of the good things in this manifesto, and few have done so while calling to an end to the rule of "Gorilians." Why does this in particular catch your eye, especially when, as you said yourself, you have to ignore so much of the crap within it to find the agreeable stuff?

It's like, imagine if someone went up to you and said he agreed with the tenets of National Socialism as presented in Mein Kampf. You'd probably tell him he's an anti-semitic fascist douchebag, right? However, he then tells you he doesn't agree with the anti-semitic, pro-Aryan, fascist-corporatist stuff, but agrees with everything else. Well, what's left but a couple of unremarkable platitudes plenty of others have uncontroversially stated minus the racialist, fascist bullshit? Can that person even lay claim to being a Nazi, then?


You make some good points against the insane ramblings of the OP, but sci-fi and manga are actually two great forms of literature intrinsically.

I didn't say they weren't. I'm a great fan of manga, and I have a casual interest in sci-fi. The crap in the OP was just hilarious, though. I called them nerds because that's all the document was: nerds wanking off to their own self-importance and name-dropping Dragonball when its political utility is dubious to say the least.

[Queercommie Girl]

What kind of silly logic is this? Tastes are subjective, you are pushing you subjective tastes as the default (psychological projection perhaps).

EDIT: I'm no expert, but isn't it so that males get the same feeling from anal stimulation of the prostate as females get from stimulating the g-spot? This does explain why women tend do not like it, and men do.

Now this is completely off-topic but many women enjoy anal sex too.

[GreenCommunism]

And there were only like two or three people who posted here who ever said we should completely get rid of age of consent, and they were not popular for it.

At most, I think people would want to see it set to 16 or something, or at the very least, would like to see less harsh treatment of people who get put on a list for being 16 and possessing naked pictures of themselves or for being 17 and having sex with an 18 or 19 year old. Things like that.

What you're saying here really just isn't true and is based on some false assumptions.

I agree, but this is always the same thing, focusing on the poor young man who was just 1 year too old for the law. The crass stupidity of our laws is no excuse .

I hate to use Stormfront to attack this site, but they sure have more evidence of what the revleft does wrong more than the opposite.

http://old.nabble.com/Re:--Marxism--My-article-%22The-Socialist-Workers-Party-vs.-Gay%09Liberation%22-td19683013.html

http://markinbookreview.blogspot.com/2010/06/from-archives-of-women-and-revolution_5106.html


Re: [Marxism] My article "The Socialist Workers Party vs. Gay Liberation"

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No matter how bad you consider them to be, I don't think it makes any
sense to call David Thorsad's views "reactionary".

Pederasty has a long history. Did the Greek boys of old get traumatized
by their relationships/mentorships with older men? I don't know. Is it
possible to desire a sexual relationship as young as, I don't know, at
least 10? Of course. With adults? Maybe.

I don't know the answers to these questions. But they're quite
hypothetical. A more relevant question is "what happens to
children/adolescents who enter into these relationships *now*, in *this
society*? Regardless of whether it's purely social stigma, such
relationships are truly traumatizing. Really, that should be the end of
it. Even radical demands for a change of culture have their limits.

Other thoughts:

1) Beginning when I was 12, I thought all age of consent laws should be
abolished, though I had no desire to be with older people (well, I dated
an 18-year-old girl when I was 14). I told myself I wouldn't just
abandon abandon this belief as I grew older.

2) Assuming it's not just a false stereotype, why is pederasty is mostly
between men and boys?

3) If I look at a picture of a 12-year-old girl I had a relationship
when I was the same age and get nostalgically turned on, is that "sick"?

4) Sexuality is one of the most amazing things there are.


Quote:
Kami - Anarchist Technocrat - If I had to set an age, I'd probably say early teens (what, 14 or so?) but it would be ideal if it were done case-by-case, specifically taking both parties into account.
Quote:
Kami - Anarchist Technocrat - Why? Does it make all that much difference if it's 13?
Quote:
Bobkindles Forum Moderator - There should be no age of consent.

Quote:
BurnTheOliveTree's Avatar - Commie Club Member - I went for 12 for the same reasons as TAT.

Less than that and it becomes an issue of straight biology - you can't really do it. More than that and you start to oppress mature young teens.
Quote:
ashaman1324 - no age.
if your old enough to feel the urge for sex, and are in love, and are mature enough. go for it.
Quote:
Deconditioned Reflex - i think when hormones kick in, sexual behaviour is natural, so i say 12/13
Quote:
Guerilla22 - 13 seems reasonable to me.

Ultimately, the SWP rediscovered the working class and with predictable opportunist logic decided to "turn" to the unions by pandering to some of the most backward attitudes prevalent among workers, as for example through Barnes & Co.'s despicable defense of anti-homosexual "age of consent" laws.

[Queercommie Girl]

I didn't say they weren't. I'm a great fan of manga, and I have a casual interest in sci-fi. The crap in the OP was just hilarious, though. I called them nerds because that's all the document was: nerds wanking off to their own self-importance and name-dropping Dragonball when its political utility is dubious to say the least.

I'm more of a sci-fi fan than manga fan. I like things like Star Trek, Iain M Bank's Culture series and Ursula Le Guin's novels. When it comes to Japanese manga I prefer Saint Seiya (which not many people in the West know, I'm from China) over Dragonball.

But I'm going off on a tangent. I have absolutely no problem with your derision of the OP at all (actually if the OP wrote a sci-fi novel his ideas aren't actually so bad at all, might even make interesting reading, but he is clearly insane for taking this stuff seriously as a political manifesto).

The thing is though, I wouldn't speak badly about nerds as a whole if I were you. There are actually lots of nerds on RevLeft. :D

[Queercommie Girl]

I know this is all bullshit conspiracy theory, but perfection of humanity to make all transgender is actually a big part of illuminati conspiracy theory, that and genetical manipulation, as well as hybridization. Which is included. This is probably the religious roots of their opposition to the transgender.


This is indeed BS transphobic conspiracy theory.

Actually many religions (and religious variants) aren't really transphobic at all. In fact, in some religions trans people are actually held in rather high esteem. (E.g. some native American religions)

And don't you think there is a fundamental difference between changing between a human male and a human female and some kind of "genetic perfection of humanity"? :rolleyes:



If i met the people who wrote this manifesto, and convinced them to change their position on LGBT people. wouldn't you be happy?


Short answer: No.

[GPDP]

I'm more of a sci-fi fan than manga fan. I like things like Star Trek, Iain M Bank's Culture series and Ursula Le Guin's novels. When it comes to Japanese manga I prefer Saint Seiya (which not many people in the West know, I'm from China) over Dragonball.

Saint Seiya is one of my favorite series. :D It was absolutely huge in Mexico. It really did baffle me how no one seemed to know about it here in the states when I first arrived.


But I'm going off on a tangent. I have absolutely no problem with your derision of the OP at all (actually if the OP wrote a sci-fi novel his ideas aren't actually so bad at all, might even make interesting reading, but he is clearly insane for taking this stuff seriously as a political manifesto).

The thing is though, I wouldn't speak badly about nerds as a whole if I were you. There are actually lots of nerds on RevLeft. :D

I should know. I am a huge nerd myself. I just take care to hide my nerd "power level," if you catch my drift, and not try to describe my political ideas as if we were living in the Gundam (main series) universe.

[GreenCommunism]

This is indeed BS transphobic conspiracy theory.

Actually many religions (and religious variants) aren't really transphobic at all. In fact, in some religions trans people are actually held in rather high esteem. (E.g. some native American religions)

And don't you think there is a fundamental difference between changing between a human male and a human female and some kind of "genetic perfection of humanity"?

I would agree that indeed there are good chances that it is a transphobic conspiracy theory, it is also racist because illuminati are in favor of hybridization and illuminati's are evil. however you yourself said that in native american culture transgender people are held in rather high esteem . isn't it possible that this weird cult ( which we have no idea if they ever existed) adopt such ideas. Especially thinking of the times where black and white were scientifically seen as different species . it is entirely possible that this is their religious rationalisation for legalizing interracial mariage.

I wouldn't mind joining the illuminati. if they didn't believe people who don't think are just as useless as animals and deserve to be treated as so.

I like the idea of hybridization of humans toward perfection but i don't feel like humanity can perfect itself to become both man and woman at the same time, with the qualities of both.

[#FF0000]

IAs long as the utility of sex is seen as pleasure like cracking up a beer. or cheap hobbies like in an economic crisis. Our society and our culture will encourage unprepared teenage sex, widespread divorce, and justify rape. No, it isn't only misogynia who is responsible for rape, even if it is a largely the most guilty.

No. It is the idea of sex as taboo that is responsible for most of these things. If people can talk about sex openly and honestly, especially in the context of sex education, which is in a horrendous state in the United States right now, then, if anything, teenagers would be better informed and more prepared to make these decisions.

The divorce thing seems like a non sequitur. I don't see what marriage and sex necessarily have to do with one another.

And the rape thing makes even less sense, considering it is backwards ideas of sex that people use when they justify rape -- that people who are promiscuous or dress a certain way are inviting rapists, that certain people "can't be raped", that rape happens with a stranger in a dark alley, or that everyone who is raped responds to it in a certain way.

[GreenCommunism]

I should know. I am a huge nerd myself. I just take care to hide my nerd "power level," if you catch my drift, and not try to describe my political ideas as if we were living in the Gundam (main series) universe.

I think the way he communicates his ideas is just fine, his target audience is nerds, and i think they have more chance to be open-minded to those ideas.

[GreenCommunism]

No, you are wrong. It is the idea of sex as taboo that is responsible for most of these things. If people can talk about sex openly and honestly, especially in the context of sex education, which is in a horrendous state in the United States right now, then, if anything, teenagers would be better informed and more prepared to make these decisions.

The divorce thing seems like a non sequitur. I don't see what marriage and sex necessarily have to do with one another.

And the rape thing makes even less sense, considering it is backwards ideas of sex that people use when they justify rape -- that people who are promiscuous or dress a certain way are inviting rapists, that certain people "can't be raped", that rape happens with a stranger in a dark alley, or that everyone who is raped responds to it in a certain way. Open discussion about sex? There is too much open discussion of sex, you hear schoolground children calling other children prostitutes. Why do you want to encourage people to have sex before your too stupid to put a condom. why don't the government distribue free condoms. Who in our society doesn't know where babies come from, or what is a condom. People should wait 18 before they have sex. There are so many virgins who are 18. i don't want a society with sexual taboos, i want a society where people fuck when they are 18-20, not before or after.

The divorce thing seems like a non sequitur. I don't see what marriage and sex necessarily have to do with one another.Impulsive sex for pleasure being culturally acceptable or glorified in movies, woman having sex in public for example is not socially acceptable, but is frequently talked about from a neutral perspective or even glorified when one sees it in the media etc. The porn industry encourages people to adopt fetish porn in order to diversify their products. to have one more type of products to sell you.

It is logical conclusion of a society that believe sex is made for pleasure not for psychological wellbeing and making us all healthy rational and sane humans. Rape is such an overlooked issue. don't you think it is because society is obsessed with pleasure and overlook mental illness as an issue.

[#FF0000]

Open discussion about sex? There is too much open discussion of sex, you hear schoolground children calling other children prostitutes.

No. These kids get skewed information from a million different sources that have other motives than to provide accurate, honest information about sex and sexual activity. Pornography is not the same as sexual education.


Why do you want to encourage people to have sex before your too stupid to put a condom.

This is the exact opposite of what I am proposing.


why don't the government distribue free condoms.

Good question.


Who in our society doesn't know where babies come from, or what is a condom.

You would be surprised. Seriously.


People should wait 18 before they have sex. There are so many virgins who are 18. i don't want a society with sexual taboos, i want a where people fuck when they are 18-20, not before or after.

People should have sex when they're ready. How can you justify anything else?

[Bud Struggle]

As a Capitalist, threads like this warm my heart. :)

[GreenCommunism]

People should have sex when they're ready. How can you justify anything else?

People having sex as soon as their ready is a dangerous idea which will lead kids to have sex before they are ready because they think they are ready and are not. kids should have sex 1-2 years after they are ready. and there really shouldn't be intolerance when it takes more time as kids develop faster than others.

[Magón]

First I need to get drunk, then eat a few shrooms, smoke some weed while I'm at it, and take some LSD to top it all off. Then I can make sense of all that's said on that, and make one of my own. :cool:

[o well this is ok I guess]

This is some weird shit.

Why does the left always attract these kind of nutcases? I can't wait to find a revolutionary variant of the Time Cube.

[GreenCommunism]

In our society, lsd and shrooms would be legal, booze and pot would be frown upon, those drugs do not improve human lives.

[GPDP]

I can't wait to find a revolutionary variant of the Time Cube.

That's actually what I was thinking about when I was perusing the article. I kept expecting to be told I was "educated stupid."

[RichardAWilson]

I'm an ecological socialist in the sense that I believe in using technology to resolve our environmental problems.

- (I.e. Free and Universal Mass Transportation, Hydroponics, Organic Farming, Clean and Renewable Energy, Universal Recycling, Composting, Waste-to-Energy Incineration, Electric & Hybrid Automobiles, Ethanol, Sustainable Land Use and Urban Planning, Renewal and Revitalization)

The transition from capitalism to socialism will lead to large breakthroughs in environmental preservation. There are few natural incentives for free-enterprise to minimize pollution. After all, the air is public domain, much like our rivers and oceans. It's more profitable for businesses to pollute the public domain, as the public domain doesn't have explicit ownership. (I.e. If a business trashes your backyard with toxic chemicals, you can sue in Civil-Court. If a business pollutes the air, you can't take legal action because you don't own the air.)

Capitalism has failed to utilize our existing and available technologies to create a sustainable global economy. These technologies, which are available to us now, could solve the entire environmental question. We wouldn't even have to make a sacrifice in our living standards.

We wouldn't even need population control, even though I'd advocate a massive campaign for population control in Africa, Asia and the Arab World.

- (I.e. Family Planning, Contraceptives, Reproductive Health Care, Sex Education in the Schools, Women's Liberation). I would even consider financial incentives for sterilization, as long as they're reversible procedures.

In comparison, we need an increased birth rate in Europe, Russia and Japan to stabilize those populations. Family Planning, Contraceptives and Reproductive Health Care should remain available in those countries. However, states should consider introducing more generous incentives for having children (I.e. A Generous Child Benefit, Universal Childcare, Compensated Family Leave). Even China is facing structural aging between now and 2050. I believe the Chinese would be wise to abandon population control before it's too late to stabilize the nation's population.

United Nation's Population Projections for China

2020: 1,387,792,000
2030: 1,393,076,000 - Population begins to decline during this decade.
2040: 1,360,906,000
2050: 1,295,604,000
2060: 1,211,538,000
2070: 1,125,903,000
2080: 1,048,132,000
2090: 984,547,000
2100: 941,042,000

Some mixed-market countries have managed to minimize greenhouse gas emissions even within the confines of the global system. The Swedes, which enjoy a high standard of living, produce less carbon dioxide per person than the Chinese. Switzerland and Israel, with high standard of living, produce less carbon dioxide per person than the Ukraine. The Italians are polluting less than the Malaysians.

Should we (America) and China pursue the path paved by the Swedes, Swiss and Italians, we could more than halve our carbon emissions and the Chinese could stabilize those emissions without sacrificing economic growth and job creation. In both cases, transitioning to a more sustainable economy makes macroeconomic sense.

It wouldn't even have to be a matter of preservation as much as it'd be a matter of common economic sense. (I.e. Oil, coal and natural gas aren't getting cheaper. The same holds true for recycling resources like aluminium).

Switching to democratic market-socialism (I.e. Decentralized Democratic Incentive Planning) would allow for even further reductions in greenhouse gas emissions, deforestation, resource depletion, water pollution, soil pollution and erosion.

[o well this is ok I guess]

That's actually what I was thinking about when I was perusing the article. I kept expecting to be told I was "educated stupid." Has anyone ever told you about the evils of ONEISM?

MARBLES, MARBLES FOR EVERYONE!

[thefinalmarch]

even though I'd advocate a massive campaign for population control in Africa, Asia and the Arab World.
Hahaha, why? "Overpopulation"?

[Apoi_Viitor]

Didn't there used to be a few people on revleft who believed in cybernetic trans-human dragons or something like that?

[RichardAWilson]

"Overpopulation" has nothing to do with the matter. The problem is that high birth rates in Africa, Asia and the Arab World are contributing to human suffering (I.e. Poverty) and horrible living standards and health for women. Men are exploiting women in those countries and the women need to be liberated. The liberation of women in those countries will have to begin with reproductive freedom, much like it happened here in America and in Western-Europe. A woman can't have freedom and pursue a dream when she has a handful of children to raise.

In Niger, Afghanistan and Liberia, the average woman will have had seven children during her childbearing years.

I know some of those children will die before reaching adulthood. However, enough of them will survive to hold a woman from realizing her dreams and ambitions in life.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Damn, the threads get weirder and weirder. :rolleyes:

[RichardAWilson]

:)

[Demogorgon]

Evolution leads to the creation of intelligent species and the Dinosaur Age lasted 144 million years
enough time to develop a intelligent bipedal species, the Reptilians. This humanoid dinosaur species
had enough time to develop the necessary technology to build spaceships and travel to other planets.
Well that's me convinced.

[Queercommie Girl]

Didn't there used to be a few people on revleft who believed in cybernetic trans-human dragons or something like that?

Seriously though, there are many technocrats, transhumanists and their sympathisers on RevLeft. I'm sympathetic to some technocratic and transhumanist ideas, even though I wouldn't label myself as a technocrat or transhumanist.

Transhumanism is a serious scientific and technological possibility in the future, and one would be ignorant of the latest developments in science and technology if one is not aware of this. But it makes no sense to mix scientific hypotheses like transhumanism with pseudo-mystical superstition.

[GPDP]

"Overpopulation" has nothing to do with the matter. The problem is that high birth rates in Africa, Asia and the Arab World are contributing to human suffering (I.e. Poverty) and horrible living standards and health for women.

Other way around, chief. It's poverty and horrible living standards that leads to high birth rates.

[RichardAWilson]

They're correlated forward and reverse. You can't claim for a second that those high birth rates don't make poverty much worse and more burdensome.

[GPDP]

They're correlated forward and reverse. You can't claim for a second that those high birth rates don't make poverty much worse and more burdensome.

Well yeah, but I believe low living standards are the egg to the high birth rate's chicken, if you catch my drift. It has been demonstrated the higher people's living standards rise, the less likely they are to have children. Having lots of children is often not only a result of a lack of education, but they are also a kind of security, as they translate into more work hands, and family is often the only thing poor people can depend on as they become elderly.

I'm not disagreeing there needs to be a rise in sex education, access to contraceptives, women's liberation, and all that. Of course that will all help. But the most important thing that's needed in those countries is much-needed economic development.

[RichardAWilson]

I can agree with you there. However, we can't afford to ignore cultural factors. The United Arab Emirates, even when excluding the foreign slave labor, has a higher birth rate than Colombia. These countries need a combination of economic growth and cultural transition that's supported with family planning and female liberation.

[Aurorus Ruber]

Didn't there used to be a few people on revleft who believed in cybernetic trans-human dragons or something like that?

I am dying to hear more about this theory. In what sense did they believe in cybernetic dragons?

[Apoi_Viitor]

I am dying to hear more about this theory. In what sense did they believe in cybernetic dragons?

I can't remember. I found some of it in a google search though http://www.revleft.com/vb/transhumanism-t133200/index2.html

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