Occupy Wall St - Is shit about to get real?

[Lobotomy]

Sorry if there is already an existing thread on this, but there is new evidence of police brutality happening in NYC now. Check this out.

https://occupywallst.org/article/A-Message-From-Occupied-Wall-Street-Day-Eight/

[Smyg]

Is shit about to get real?


No. :rolleyes:

[Lobotomy]

By "shit about to get real", I don't mean major changes to the system right now. I mean attention being drawn to this idea of challenging wall st. If a lot of people see what is going on and how quickly the police/bourgeoisie are to stifle it, it could plant ideas in a lot of peoples' heads.

[KurtFF8]

The police handling of the Union Square march wasn't much different than how they handled the Troy Davis march on Thursday. This kind of stuff happens quite often, and even getting coverage doesn't really move thing forward too much.

[Lobotomy]

The police handling of the Union Square march wasn't much different than how they handled the Troy Davis march on Thursday. This kind of stuff happens quite often, and even getting coverage doesn't really move thing forward too much.

Why is that? Lack of class consciousness?

[tfb]

A nice bit from a commenter on BoingBoing:



What do they expect when they take on the modern corporation? Since your life in the US is worth exactly the amount of profit you represent to a corporation, standing in their way means you are worth more dead than alive.

[Winkers Fons]

No, but maybe some pseudo-radical college students will get some good pictures to post on facebook.

[KurtFF8]

I'm not sure what class consciousness has to do with this protest

[Obs]

I'm not sure what class consciousness has to do with this protest

Nothing, which is why it's failed.

[DaringMehring]

The protest will hopefully up class consciousness of participants, by the experience of its suppression.

[cb9's_unity]

Hopefully too many leftists aren't looking to far down their noses at this. Yah this lacks class consciousness, no shit, its America 2011. But we're at a point where the rhetoric in this country is framed in a way that always protects corporations. Tea Party and libertarian talking points are dominating, and people are directing their anger more at democratic politicians and so called liberal progressive values than capitalists. So I, for one, support any movement that helps direct anger at corporations and wall st. Not because I want to defend democratic politicians, they've proved themselves more despicable than ever, but, instead, because this country needs some sort of anti-corporate movement. Thats where it needs to start.

People aren't going to initially become class conscious and political though only feelings of working class brotherhood. They are going to do so because they hate the companies their working for and because they see how the capitalist class is fucking the country. We need to start somewhere.

[KurtFF8]

I didn't mean to come off as too dismissive of the action. I think it's good that it's going on and could certainly be an amazing thing.

It just needs to develop more. (Not as opposed to any other movement in the US right now)

[Lobotomy]

^ Pretty much my point but phrased much more eloquently

Edit: directed at cb9's_unity

[¿Que?]

I think if the people are determined enough, then either the shit will get real or the shit will hit the fan. But there have already been numerous arrests and for them, I'd say it's pretty real already.

What I would have done, however, is wait until May and have it coincide with the G8/Nato summit. I know it's a long ways away, but I think that one's gonna be big.

[Hiero]

OwWInp75ua0

The opinion and actions in that video clip do not hold any substantive messages. How is Wall Street meant to respond? The events in the Arab spring had real demands such as Mubarak leave, Ben Ali leave etc. Who is this occupation directed against? Who is meant to respond?

This so call "occupation" has no real demands. Can someone list the demands expressed? Demands like "real democracy", "open society" blah blah have no substance and something no one can give. A reall occupation has a reason and demands that are given for the ending of the occupation "we want X, Z, Y and we wont leave untill they are given". Even if they will be realistically gained by the occupation the purpose is to raise awarness of thoose demands. So if the demands were "socialised healthcare" the purpose is to raise awareness of socialised health care to Americans and put pressure on the government for reform.

If anyone thinks this will raise class consciousness, it might but in the other direction. People wont see this "occupation" and reflect"I am a worker, I want revolution". The vagueness of the occupation wil most likely make people say "I am a worker, the real world calls tomorrow and I better get back to work".

To me this is just a wierd post-modern event that signifies nothing.

[KurtFF8]

At about 4:52 or so of the above video, the woman says "demands are problematic and disempowering actually"

[Le Libérer]

OwWInp75ua0

[RedSonRising]

Again with the "crony capitalism" and "there's no free market" crap. I think there are a lot of good people there and I hope it further politicizes, but people need to understand that the problem is systemic.

[teflon_john]

i alerted a PSL comrade about an Occupy protest happening in our city. not sure what we'll be doing at this point just yet.

[Delenda Carthago]

Even though it lacks of class consiousness, and thats the main thing of course, I dont think joining in would be a loss for the revolutionary...movement? I mean, as far as I know, there is none in the States right now. So its not that it would be a step behind after this movement will be over. Maybe the joining of some revolutionaries would make it blossom. Its always better than sit on your couch, right?

[Delenda Carthago]

Αnd this comes from someone that opposed the "Real Democracia Ya!" movement when it came to Greece, aight? But its so different the situation, that there is no comparasing.

[teflon_john]

i've noticed that a lot of people here are really into divorcing themselves from any movement or protest, anything at all in what is perhaps an effort to remain blameless.

[KurtFF8]

i've noticed that a lot of people here are really into divorcing themselves from any movement or protest, anything at all in what is perhaps an effort to remain blameless.

I think that there are some very valid criticisms of this "occupation," especially from a radical leftist perspective.

The occupation certainly has a significant anti-capitalist influence, but from a revolutionary perspective, it needs a critique.

(Also this is a place for such critique, but I think the occupation should be supported overall)

[Hiero]

At about 4:52 or so of the above video, the woman says "demands are problematic and disempowering actually"

And that statement is problematic.

What's the point in staging something with no point? Someone who looked like a white collar worker in the Michael Moore one mentioned how he lost his job, house and social security (is that like insurance in the USA?) and that was the reason why he was hear. He also mentioned how it was difficult to articulate that into a message of protest. he made a good point and that is what people need to work out. Is this the future of activism, events that are created just to get noticed. "We are here, and we don't want anything substantive!".

It is not just about "class consciousness" whatever that means, do you guys mean working class, middle class consciousness? It is more about the clarity. Occupy Wallstreet, but for what?

And it is not that I am sitting on my couch, I have been invovled with union fight over increased pay for non-government social workers and carers here in NSW, Australia. That is something real that can be grasped and grouned into my life and other people's lives.

[The Douche]

I have seen a lot of people who claim that the occupation is not even anti-capitalist in nature, and there have been a number of people speaking at the event who are openly accepting of capitalism. (the problem is crony capitalism, the market isn't really free) There are a lot of Ron Paul fuckfaces involved with this.



Also, I'm really sick and tired of leftist boo-hooing about "police brutality". You got maced and arrested for participating in an occupation? What in the mother fuck did you think was going to happen? You put yourself into the situation, knowing the risks, and somebody pepper sprayed you, and you think that's brutality? Troy Davis was fucking murdered by the state and he was innocent, and you have the nerve to complain that you got maced while breaking the law?

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck offffffffffffffffff.

[agnixie]

I have seen a lot of people who claim that the occupation is not even anti-capitalist in nature, and there have been a number of people speaking at the event who are openly accepting of capitalism. (the problem is crony capitalism, the market isn't really free) There are a lot of Ron Paul fuckfaces involved with this.


We had people in hospitals in critical state from the macing and the beatings, we had someone held in plastic cuffs on a chair for 22 hours, we had someone with a serious cut on the length of his leg, all thanks to cops. There was one Paulista at the first day and no a single one involved in organizing, it was the NYABC for the most part (which is mostly a weird mashup of a bunch of communists, socialists and progressives) with some support from a couple anarchists and USDOR (which is about the only self-defined liberal group that was directly involved). Choke on your goddamn strawmen.

Breaking the law? Fuck off yourself.

[Threetune]

The thing to do is get into the protests and start talking about the hopelessness stupidity and violence of the ruling class and the need for working class to start calling the shots. That would be a start. Then just deal with the arguments as they come up. So as to be forewarned, what might those arguments be?

[KurtFF8]

And that statement is problematic.

What's the point in staging something with no point? Someone who looked like a white collar worker in the Michael Moore one mentioned how he lost his job, house and social security (is that like insurance in the USA?) and that was the reason why he was hear. He also mentioned how it was difficult to articulate that into a message of protest. he made a good point and that is what people need to work out. Is this the future of activism, events that are created just to get noticed. "We are here, and we don't want anything substantive!".

It is not just about "class consciousness" whatever that means, do you guys mean working class, middle class consciousness? It is more about the clarity. Occupy Wallstreet, but for what?

And it is not that I am sitting on my couch, I have been invovled with union fight over increased pay for non-government social workers and carers here in NSW, Australia. That is something real that can be grasped and grouned into my life and other people's lives.

I agree, it's not just about class consciousness. As Leftists, we do tend to focus on things like the class composition/character of these things and how their messages relate to the working class. But as you point out, even more abstract from that, there's this notion of "occupy everything, demand nothing!" (I don't remember where I originally heard that, not mine though)

That is indeed quite problematic. They don't seem to have any real direction, not to mention organization.


Also, I'm really sick and tired of leftist boo-hooing about "police brutality". You got maced and arrested for participating in an occupation? What in the mother fuck did you think was going to happen? You put yourself into the situation, knowing the risks, and somebody pepper sprayed you, and you think that's brutality? Troy Davis was fucking murdered by the state and he was innocent, and you have the nerve to complain that you got maced while breaking the law?

Agreed. It all seems like an act to me as well. It should be up to media commentator to try to "boo hoo," not the folks getting arrested to exaggerate.

The Left should instead act completley unsurprised, not outraged by these kids of actions by the police. Because, let's face it, we're not surprised or outraged: we know these things happen.

There's an implicit "well the police aren't supposed to be doing these kinds of things!" message when the Left is outraged. And that logic can quickly devolve into "the police have a role, and they're overstepping their bounds." Instead, the Left should be pointing out the other character of the police: the protection of property. A more nuanced reaction to the arrests would be something along the lines of "while they're protecting Wall St, they're arresting us" minus the surprise and outrage. That could open up an opportunity to talk about the role of police under a capitalist system.


We had people in hospitals in critical state from the macing and the beatings, we had someone held in plastic cuffs on a chair for 22 hours, we had someone with a serious cut on the length of his leg, all thanks to cops. There was one Paulista at the first day and no a single one involved in organizing, it was the NYABC for the most part (which is mostly a weird mashup of a bunch of communists, socialists and progressives) with some support from a couple anarchists and USDOR (which is about the only self-defined liberal group that was directly involved). Choke on your goddamn strawmen.

Breaking the law? Fuck off yourself.

Didn't the march at Union Sq attempt to take the streets like the Troy Davis march on Thursday? That would explain the police's response: they didn't want Thursday to be repeated. I'm not justifying their actions by any means, but to act surprised by what they did, especially after last week, doesn't seem to be taking into account recent developments

[The Douche]

We had people in hospitals in critical state from the macing and the beatings, we had someone held in plastic cuffs on a chair for 22 hours, we had someone with a serious cut on the length of his leg, all thanks to cops. There was one Paulista at the first day and no a single one involved in organizing, it was the NYABC for the most part (which is mostly a weird mashup of a bunch of communists, socialists and progressives) with some support from a couple anarchists and USDOR (which is about the only self-defined liberal group that was directly involved). Choke on your goddamn strawmen.

Breaking the law? Fuck off yourself.

Hey I used to moan and complain about getting maced and beat up by cops to. But the reality is that you are in fact, breaking the law, and you're consciously choosing to do this in order to make a statement. Every single person there knows that there is going to be police repression.

And when you film yourself getting smashed on the by the cops, what do you think is going to be the result? I can tell you for a fact, nobody gives a rat's ass outside of the leftist milieu. Regular, everyday people are just gonna shrug it off because they know you know what you were walking into, and meanwhile, people less privileged than you are facing this kind of repression every day of their fucking lives, but you want to cry about it for your political theatre.



I'm all for protests if thats what you want to do. But make some fucking demands, make them clear, make them sharp, and make them effective. And stand behind those demands, and promote them and make that your message. And stop wasting your time with stories and outrage about the police doing their job. Every poor/working person in the US knows that the police exist to defend to rich, this isn't news to anybody, and we all know that cops are pieces of shit who repress the poor when they get uppity. That is not the point of your protest, and you sound like a bunch of whiny brats (which is what the left always sounds like) because your focus is on how the cops treated you instead of why the fuck you're occupying wall street in the first place.


Jesus Christ, this shit is fucking elementary. Like always this was pulled off with poor fucking planning and no real end goal in sight. How the fuck do you plan to build a movement when you can't even make a clear set of demands to stick by?!

[Oswy]

By "shit about to get real", I don't mean major changes to the system right now. I mean attention being drawn to this idea of challenging wall st. If a lot of people see what is going on and how quickly the police/bourgeoisie are to stifle it, it could plant ideas in a lot of peoples' heads.

Yeah, I think any increase in the challenging of capitalist orthodoxy is good, the problem is that in the US being on the 'left' tends to mean something much less radical than elsewhere - but capitalism can't, ultimately, be tamed or reformed, it has to collapse or be overthrown. Hopefully one of those two things will happen this century.

[RadioRaheem84]

The Young Turks said these protests are spreading to other cities. What cities? Nothing going on in my town.

Also, how big are they in NYC? Are they swelling up at least to size of the protests in Israel?

Is the only coverage given is when there is police abuse?

Finally, can we expect these protests to increase in size or will we see a dwindling of numbers in the next week or so?

[Threetune]

Hey I used to moan and complain about getting maced and beat up by cops to. But the reality is that you are in fact, breaking the law, and you're consciously choosing to do this in order to make a statement. Every single person there knows that there is going to be police repression.

And when you film yourself getting smashed on the by the cops, what do you think is going to be the result? I can tell you for a fact, nobody gives a rat's ass outside of the leftist milieu. Regular, everyday people are just gonna shrug it off because they know you know what you were walking into, and meanwhile, people less privileged than you are facing this kind of repression every day of their fucking lives, but you want to cry about it for your political theatre.



I'm all for protests if thats what you want to do. But make some fucking demands, make them clear, make them sharp, and make them effective. And stand behind those demands, and promote them and make that your message. And stop wasting your time with stories and outrage about the police doing their job. Every poor/working person in the US knows that the police exist to defend to rich, this isn't news to anybody, and we all know that cops are pieces of shit who repress the poor when they get uppity. That is not the point of your protest, and you sound like a bunch of whiny brats (which is what the left always sounds like) because your focus is on how the cops treated you instead of why the fuck you're occupying wall street in the first place.


Jesus Christ, this shit is fucking elementary. Like always this was pulled off with poor fucking planning and no real end goal in sight. How the fuck do you plan to build a movement when you can't even make a clear set of demands to stick by?!

Well, you could join the protests and say all that if you thought it would do any good. But what happened to ‘patiently explaining things?’

[RadioRaheem84]

Cmoney is right. Before middle America was brought into the crisis with their standards lowered, every day people would just look at these incidents as a "you get what you deserve" moment.

They've internalized the violence so much that they know that if you're out there challenging the system, you're gonna get maced, arrested, verbally abused, physically abused and harassed by the State. So when they see the events on the ten o'clock news, they feel no sympathy for protesters who put themselves into that situation.

Luckily, things are changing. The system is openly bleeding and people, every day middle America can see the wound. There is some sympathy out there for the protesters being abused by the police. They agree with the cause and heck a major MSNBC show host actually did a segment on the police brutality, saying minority America experiences this every day.

The protests are more anti-corruption than anti-capitalism,they're anti-corporate capitalism. Which is a start but then the movement will fall apart once the explanation behind a solution will trigger infighting between the left progressive side and the crazy Ron Paul libertarians.

[RadioRaheem84]

Cmoney, maybe these incidents will finally awaken that stubborn middle class that has been thrust into the crisis head first?

I mean they're probably seeing their grand kids, kids, or nephews, college age getting maced by unruly police.

Before, all of the talk about "the man" was street lingo for "urban people" who didn't want to take "personal responsibility" for their lives.

Now that the State has stretched over into the suburbs looking for people to toss in jail (DWIs being the biggest), white suburbia is discovering, "holy shit, there is a man".

[Threetune]

Cmoney, maybe these incidents will finally awaken that stubborn middle class that has been thrust into the crisis head first?

I mean they're probably seeing their grand kids, kids, or nephews, college age getting maced by unruly police.

Before, all of the talk about "the man" was street lingo for "urban people" who didn't want to take "personal responsibility" for their lives.

Now that the State has stretched over into the suburbs looking for people to toss in jail (DWIs being the biggest), white suburbia is discovering, "holy shit, there is a man".

Yes but - what are you telling them? "There is a man"?

[RadioRaheem84]

Yes but - what are you telling them? "There is a man"?

Well as the events unfold more people will see the coercive arm of the State in full color.

I mean the message should be anti-capitalism, but the outcome will be that people will see what happens to protesters whether they be black, white, latino, poor, middle class, etc.

[The Douche]

Well, you could join the protests and say all that if you thought it would do any good. But what happened to ‘patiently explaining things?’

I can't join them because I have a job, and I don't have the financial means or the personal freedom to risk arrest anymore. There was a time in my life where I could do these things, but unfortunately I have things which prevent me from doing stuff like this.


I have no problem with "patiently explaining things", and you'll notice that post you quote contains statements where I say that what is needed is clear demands (which the occupation lacks).

Raheem:


Cmoney, maybe these incidents will finally awaken that stubborn middle class that has been thrust into the crisis head first?

Maybe, but I don't think so. One important thing is that there are no clear demands being made, and that the issue being organized around isn't the actual issue. There is not "corruption", there is just capitalism.


I mean they're probably seeing their grand kids, kids, or nephews, college age getting maced by unruly police.

But this isn't a mass movement provoked by mass outrage and displeasure from the working class and dispossessed directed towards the ruling class. This is a political play organized by the left in an attempt to mimic the real mass movements occurring elsewhere in the world.


Wisconsin was a mass movement of the working class against the bourgeoise, there was progress made there. This is just theatre.

[DaringMehring]

Wisconsin was a mass movement of the working class against the bourgeoise, there was progress made there. This is just theatre.

I sympathize with some of what you say, but you miss a key difference between this and Wisconsin, which is while Wis. had many superior features (size, working class involvement), this is specifically framed outside the bourgeois democracy and attacks the bourgeois democracy. Wis., on the other hand, was oriented to the bourgeois democracy (centered on a voting drama, occupation at state capitol, and so on) and was rolled up by the Democrats et al in the end, and folded into an electoral game.

[The Douche]

I sympathize with some of what you say, but you miss a key difference between this and Wisconsin, which is while Wis. had many superior features (size, working class involvement), this is specifically framed outside the bourgeois democracy and attacks the bourgeois democracy. Wis., on the other hand, was oriented to the bourgeois democracy (centered on a voting drama, occupation at state capitol, and so on) and was rolled up by the Democrats et al in the end, and folded into an electoral game.

I disagree. The struggle in Wisconsin helped the left make in roads into the real working class in its' struggle against the bosses. Was the struggle ultimately co-opted by the democrats? Yes. (well the struggle isn't over yet, there is still the recall coming up, but yes I think it has be co-opted) But the left was there, working hand in hand with the workers and pushing the struggle in new/different directions. As the struggle continues and heats back up there will be well learned lessons which can contribute to new strategy.

Occupy Wall Street is not against capitalism, and it is not an organic outgrowth of working class struggle. Its a bunch of activists trying to pander to populist sentiments currently somewhat popular with the public (note...public not necessarily the working class).

Wisconsin was a struggle of workers against bosses which revolutionaries participated in in order to gain a foothold in the working class and attempt to influence the struggle to a broader platform. Occupy Wall Street is a struggle of activists to gain some media attention.



The longshoremans' strike is far more interesting/important/promising than a bunch of students in a camp on wall street.

[HEAD ICE]

I sympathize with some of what you say, but you miss a key difference between this and Wisconsin, which is while Wis. had many superior features (size, working class involvement), this is specifically framed outside the bourgeois democracy and attacks the bourgeois democracy. Wis., on the other hand, was oriented to the bourgeois democracy (centered on a voting drama, occupation at state capitol, and so on) and was rolled up by the Democrats et al in the end, and folded into an electoral game.

I don't see how this is framed against "bourgeois democracy" (whatever that is supposed to mean). Attacking Wall St. for capitalism's ills is a very popular sentiment amongst many factions of the bourgeoisie. In times of economic crisis certain factions of the capitalist class not only attack the working class but help foster anti-financial capital sentiment as well.

If we want to move this class movement forward, our rhetoric has to specifically emphasize that Wall St. is not at fault for the economic crisis. We must make clear that Wall St. is a symptom of capitalism itself. The roots of the crisis are far deeper than bankers playing around with money.

One bad thing about focusing entirely upon financial capitalists is the potential of it being co-opted by the right or the left* and being used to spread anti-Semitic propaganda. If we blame the Wall St. bankers for our ills, who a lot happen to be Jewish, it is not too far a step for people to make the false connection.

*Darling child of the "anti-imperialist" left and Green Party presidential candidate Cynthia McKinney has put blame for the crisis on "moneylenders" (a term I have NEVER seen used outside of an anti-Semitic context) and positively reviewed and recommended a book by Matthias Chang titled "The Shadow Moneylenders" which explicitely blames "Jewish bankers" for the world's ills.

[Ele'ill]

I can't join them because I have a job

Well, we can occupy those spaces too. Next step is banners out of work place windows and 'Wall Street' getting ruined without so much as a soul in the street.

[freethinker]

I think Peak Oil will occur before a revolution dose...
but Socialists, Communists, Marxists etc.. might be able to pick up the pieces

[Lobotomy]

This isn't even about *****ing and moaning about police brutality, it's about hoping people will realize the difference in the police's reaction between these protests and, for example, the Tea Party Protests. At the teabagger protests people were openly criticising the government (albeit for the wrong reasons of course) and even a few people made threats of violence, but AFAIK there was no police interference whatsoever. these people, on the other hand, just standing in the street and shouting empty, vaugely anti-bourgeois slogans and they get maced. Even the fucking consititution guarentees the right to peaceful assembly but the police will act on it if it even resembles an anti-capitalist movement (which it's not). We know why, those protestors might be figuring out why, but the vast majority of Americans have no clue. Basically I agree with what RadioRaheem said. This protest will be unsuccessful and the protestors will go back to class, but people who are paying attention might start to notice a pattern.

[SHORAS]

Also, I'm really sick and tired of leftist boo-hooing about "police brutality". You got maced and arrested for participating in an occupation? What in the mother fuck did you think was going to happen? You put yourself into the situation, knowing the risks, and somebody pepper sprayed you, and you think that's brutality? Troy Davis was fucking murdered by the state and he was innocent, and you have the nerve to complain that you got maced while breaking the law? Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck offffffffffffffffff.

Comrade, I once wrote something similar after seeing some women getting some serious rough treatment by cops in Italy. And I was wrong to make the comments. You have to remember that workers, especially in the over developed countries who are aware that the police are an armed body of the state and are not some neutral force or friendly bobby on the beat and so on are a tiny minority. Many workers think you can protest/take action without consequences, that it is a 'right' or a feature of democracy. The ideology around democracy, not having a materialist conception of history and so on is a huge barrier. But it is exactly these experiences which they will benefit from, learn from, reflect upon and so on. It is not very pleasant to get physical abuse or any abuse but it is a learning experience and part of a necessary process.

[The Douche]

Comrade, I once wrote something similar after seeing some women getting some serious rough treatment by cops in Italy. And I was wrong to make the comments. You have to remember that workers, especially in the over developed countries who are aware that the police are an armed body of the state and are not some neutral force or friendly bobby on the beat and so on are a tiny minority. Many workers think you can protest/take action without consequences, that it is a 'right' or a feature of democracy. The ideology around democracy, not having a materialist conception of history and so on is a huge barrier. But it is exactly these experiences which they will benefit from, learn from, reflect upon and so on. It is not very pleasant to get physical abuse or any abuse but it is a learning experience and part of a necessary process.

I need to reiterate my point, that when Joe Schmo sees protestors break the law and get hurt by the police the reaction is "it sucks that the cops did that to you, but you should've expected it".

Working people and poor people, even in the US, know that police exist to keep them in line. And boo hooing about it does nothing but show one's immaturity.



Again, this isn't some organic expression of the genuine rage of the working class and dispossessed people in the US. Its a bunch of leftists putting on a show. (and not even a very coherent one)

[SHORAS]

Working people and poor people, even in the US, know that police exist to keep them in line. And boo hooing about it does nothing but show one's immaturity.

I'm not from the US nor do I live there (though have visited) so it's difficult to talk about specifics but I simply don't believe the above. I think there is just as much mystification and lack of understanding of the Police as a part of the state to enforce the rule of capital and so on as there is in the over developed European countries. It's one thing to simply not like the Police on a general level but I think you're wrong about the question of their existence as a force in society. However, as per American cops having firearms and being probably more vicious than some other Police forces there might be some truth to what you say but not on the level you think. That's just my view. Of course I may be entirely wrong. I've only taken an interest in your comment in this thread so I'm really just concentrating on this not the thread as a whole.

[Threetune]

Well as the events unfold more people will see the coercive arm of the State in full color.

I mean the message should be anti-capitalism, but the outcome will be that people will see what happens to protesters whether they be black, white, latino, poor, middle class, etc.

Yes, yes yes commrade, but what will you be saying about the economic crisis, the attacks on workers and the war drive of imperialism?

[Threetune]

".....

"...But make some fucking demands, make them clear, make them sharp, and make them effective. And stand behind those demands, and promote them and make that your message. ....

Jesus Christ, this shit is fucking elementary. Like always this was pulled off with poor fucking planning and no real end goal in sight. How the fuck do you plan to build a movement when you can't even make a clear set of demands to stick by?!

Having thanked your posts because you CORECTLY highlighted the posturing of the ‘lefts’, can I ask if you can put some flesh on the bones of the above advice? What ‘demands’ do you recon would be the best?

[thriller]

AttackGr is totally right. If you don't like the way the protest is going or the way it sounds to others, then get in their and fucking change it. If you are just going to wait around for some mass political class oriented movement to magically appear tomorrow before you get involved, then just become a republican so you can defend your laziness. This has the potential to become HUGE. But only if WE do something about it. Don't wait until the coast is clear to spring from your armchair, because you will find everyone else saying to you "where the fuck have you been?" If you don't like something, change it. If you fail to change it, you'll be in the same place that you are now. Change the world or GTFO. Don't criticize others for having the strength to take mace at point blank for what they believe when you don't.

[~Spectre]

Working people and poor people, even in the US, know that police exist to keep them in line. And boo hooing about it does nothing but show one's immaturity.


Therefor the correct reaction for a "mature leftist" like you is to tell people to shut up and accept the state. That's actually not surprising. Being a conservative masochist is essentially society's definition of maturity.

But pardon us if, though we can only be young once, choose to be this kind of immature forever.

[~Spectre]

Again, this isn't some organic expression of the genuine rage of the working class and dispossessed people in the US. Its a bunch of leftists putting on a show. (and not even a very coherent one)

You seem jealous. Perhaps they should've been good productive little "leftists" and joined the army like you?

I missed this in my last post, but color me shocked(!) that you're the same guy that goes around lying on this messageboard that the U.S. government is legally within bounds to arrest people for listening to violent speech. I smell bacon. GTFO pig.

[bcbm]

You seem jealous. Perhaps they should've been good productive little "leftists" and joined the army like you?

I missed this in my last post, but color me shocked(!) that you're the same guy that goes around lying on this messageboard that the U.S. government is legally within bounds to arrest people for listening to violent speech. I smell bacon. GTFO pig.

how is 'the police exist to protect the ruling class. if you get in the way of this objective they will hurt you' in anyway controversial to a leftist? and 'legally within bounds?' pretty sure the pigs are almost always above the law or the law is bent to their needs.

oh and don't fucking badjacket

[The Douche]

Having thanked your posts because you CORECTLY highlighted the posturing of the ‘lefts’, can I ask if you can put some flesh on the bones of the above advice? What ‘demands’ do you recon would be the best?

What demands would I suggest? An immediate end to private ownership of property, the disempowerment of all three branches of government, immediate review of the cases of all prisoners by boards elected by the working class, disbandment of the military and police forces to be replaced by elected members of the working class for starters.

These demands are, of course, absurd. Because protests and leftist theatre don't cause revolution, thats why these things are silly if you view them in the light of revolution or whatever, what they are, is exactly what I called them, political theatre. And if its just theatre why not be as absurd as you want?


You seem jealous. Perhaps they should've been good productive little "leftists" and joined the army like you?

I missed this in my last post, but color me shocked(!) that you're the same guy that goes around lying on this messageboard that the U.S. government is legally within bounds to arrest people for listening to violent speech. I smell bacon. GTFO pig.

:rolleyes:

You have absolutely no grasp of what I'm talking about.


P.S. Can you make some eggs for me as well, I love pork.

[~Spectre]

how is 'the police exist to protect the ruling class. if you get in the way of this objective they will hurt you' in anyway controversial to a leftist? and 'legally within bounds?' pretty sure the pigs are almost always above the law or the law is bent to their needs.
oh and don't fucking badjacket

It's not controversial. It's simply a non-sequitor though to say "WTF DID YOU EXPECT!?" to people angry about being brutalized by police.

Whether someone expects it or not, is irrelevant to their right to be pissed off about it, see how that works? That's how that works.

Almost every abuse under capitalism is "to be expected", that doesn't mean you shouldn't be angry about them. This standard being espoused by you and the pig is absurd.

The type of "criticism" is simply malicious, meant to either make you inactive lot feel better about yourselves, or subvert.

[bcbm]

i think its meant to pull people out of a liberal 'call the police on their shit and reform them' mindset and tackle the actual issue which is the existence of police, not whether they give you flowers or a blow to the face.

[~Spectre]

These demands are, of course, absurd. Because protests and leftist theatre don't cause revolution, thats why these things are silly if you view them in the light of revolution or whatever

By your same logic:
P1: Posts complaining about leftist theatre don't cause revolution.
P2: Your post is a post complaining about leftist theatre.
P3: These things are silly if you view them "in the light of revolution"
Conclusion: Your post is silly.

All your criticisms self-destruct, and are the height of hypocrisy. There's no principles behind you're desire to put them down. Stop pretending, and just admit to being full of shit.

[The Douche]

It's not controversial. It's simply a non-sequitor though to say "WTF DID YOU EXPECT!?" to people angry about being brutalized by police.

Whether someone expects it or not, is irrelevant to their right to be pissed off about it, see how that works? That's how that works.

Almost every abuse under capitalism is "to be expected", that doesn't mean you shouldn't be angry about them. This standard being espoused by you and the pig is absurd.

The type of "criticism" is simply malicious, meant to either make you inactive lot feel better about yourselves, or subvert.

Read what I actually wrote.


I'm not saying "beat hippies", I'm saying when you boo-hoo about the police beating you up you're pissing in the wind.


Focus on why you're there, keep your demands clear and consistent, have realistic expectations etc...

[The Douche]

By your same logic:
P1: Posts complaining about leftist theatre don't cause revolution.
P2: Your post is a post complaining about leftist theatre.
P3: These things are silly if you view them "in the light of revolution"
Conclusion: Your post is silly.

All your criticisms self-destruct, and are the height of hypocrisy. There's no principles behind you're desire to put them down. Stop pretending, and just admit to being full of shit.

I don't understand your post.

[~Spectre]

i think its meant to pull people out of a liberal 'call the police on their shit and reform them' mindset and tackle the actual issue which is the existence of police, not whether they give you flowers or a blow to the face.

Interesting. In order to get people "out of that mindset", you need to show them that the police systemically do these sorts of things in defense of capitalism. You know how you do that? By letting EVERYONE know when it happens!

Believe it or not, out there in the U.S. there are still people that doubt what the police are, or that they do these sorts of things. So it's good to let them know.

The criticisms leveled by that other dude are only valid if these complaints about police were being addressed only to "the radicalized posters of revleft". While he may be self-centered enough to think that, the rest of us aren't. So it's irrelevant, unprincipled noise to criticize these protesters on those grounds.

[~Spectre]

I don't understand your post.

And I'm not the least bit surprised.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

A few things.

- I'm less than 30 minutes away by public transportation from where this is going down. I haven't heard a single mention of it since it's happened (outside of the internet, TV, and leftists I know). None of the "regular people" or dozens of working people I've talked to over the last few weeks has mentioned this at all -- including union trade workers who discuss workers questions on a daily basis and a group of locked out Teamsters that are picketing. When the struggles broke out in Madison, the whole town was talking about it. When the public square occupations took place in Egypt and Israel, it was on everyone's mind and in everyone's daily conversation. That should put some things in perspective.

- I visited the area where this is going down and outside of the standard left groups you'd expect, I didn't encounter any individual of groups of angry working people expressing things in a class-based way. The few people I talked to expressed their actions as a protest against "fascism" or something similar, that had taken the place of capitalism. I was told that they were not against capitalism, since "capitalism doesn't exist. Fascism does!" There was a lot of sentiment against "The Fed," "printing money and running up national debt," "government caused inflation," "international bankers," taxation, etc. I was told that the government was trying to impose "socialism" by taxing "the people" and handing the money over to corporations and unions(!). I didn't hang around long.

Also:

- One of the city's most powerful unions (that shut down the world financial capital as recently as 2005) just voted to endorse the events. See: http://www.revleft.com/vb/ny-transit-workers-t161919/index.html The Working Families Party and some liberal celebs will be there too. :rolleyes:

I certainly won't condemn people for expressing anger, in this or any other way. I certainly won't condone the ruthless behavior of the cops or say that these people deserve to be brutalized, beaten, maced, etc. And I won't write the thing off completely. Despite its origins and its makeup, people with legitimate grievances are participating, cheering it on, paying attention. It's definitely tied in to the crisis of capital, and is a manifestation of the results. Besides, no one can say for sure where this will lead. Things sometimes have a way of leading to other things that no one would expect. Who would have guessed a man setting himself on fire would be the spark that let lose the Arab Spring? How many people in Hungary 1955, Russia 1916, USA 1876 could have told you major, world-historic working class uprisings were a year away?

[~Spectre]

Read what I actually wrote.
I'm not saying "beat hippies", I'm saying when you boo-hoo about the police beating you up you're pissing in the wind.

Read your own language. They're not "boo-hoo"'ing. They're legitimately complaining about wrongs that were done to them.

Moreover it's not pissing in the wind. It's directed towards anyone listening, among which are people yet to be radicalized.



Focus on why you're there
Notice that these things aren't mutually exclusive.

Your criticisms again break down.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Believe it or not, out there in the U.S. there are still people that doubt what the police are, or that they do these sorts of things.

Yeah, I'm always surprised by the amount of people who are like that in the U.S.

Where I grew up, with my family, with my friends, people I associated with, etc., there was never any question of what the cops were. Then again, they all dealt with the police, on picket lines, on the streets, in courts, etc., on a day-to-day basis.

I guess bourgeois ideology prevails as always... but when they're getting pulled over, strip searched, beaten or sprayed with mace, they will learn the lesson pretty quickly.

[S.Artesian]

I need to reiterate my point, that when Joe Schmo sees protestors break the law and get hurt by the police the reaction is "it sucks that the cops did that to you, but you should've expected it".

Yes, but when Jane Doe who is a worker in a health care facility, or a food production line who is about to get laid off sees cops beating up kids who are protesting about the privileges and protections and subsidies provided to bankers, capitalists, that ruling class, Jane just might go down there herself to express her solidarity. She might even bring it up at a union meeting and ask her brothers and sisters to go down there as an organization.

Things actually happen just like that, believe it or not.


Working people and poor people, even in the US, know that police exist to keep them in line. And boo hooing about it does nothing but show one's immaturity.

Wait a minute, so when cops beat and kicked freedom riders [not exactly poor and working class people them] then what? No sense pointing out that the cops are beating people who are simply advocating on behalf of the poor and dispossessed, wherever those poor and dispossessed might be.




Again, this isn't some organic expression of the genuine rage of the working class and dispossessed people in the US. Its a bunch of leftists putting on a show. (and not even a very coherent one)

You have no idea who these people are. Really. They don't seem to be from organized "leftist" groups; they're certainly not Marxists. Among them I'm sure are temporary workers, unemployed workers, fast-food industry workers, part-time workers, students graduating with zero prospects of employment, students not graduating who know they face zero prospects of employment.

[The Douche]

Read your own language. They're not "boo-hoo"'ing. They're legitimately complaining about wrongs that were done to them.

Moreover it's not pissing in the wind. It's directed towards anyone listening, among which are people yet to be radicalized.


Notice that these things aren't mutually exclusive.

You're criticisms again break down.

Contrary to how you view the world, most people do not get outraged when a protestor breaks the law and gets pepper sprayed. I think its shitty but the typical response from most people will be "what did you expect". And certainly, most/all leftists expect police repression. So focus on the crimes of capitalism (which this protest never considered a focal point) and make connections to police repression.

Boo-hooing is exactly whats going on and thats exactly what the left spend all its time doing.

[The Douche]

You have no idea who these people are. Really. They don't seem to be from organized "leftist" groups; they're certainly not Marxists. Among them I'm sure are temporary workers, unemployed workers, fast-food industry workers, part-time workers, students graduating with zero prospects of employment, students not graduating who know they face zero prospects of employment.

Actually I do know some people there. And they're all college students/young people who are into protest politics.

This was started by adbusters for fucks sake.

[~Spectre]

Contrary to how you view the world, most people do not get outraged when a protestor breaks the law and gets pepper sprayed.

The young women that got pepper sprayed weren't breaking a single law Mr. Bloomberg, but thanks for that.

I think you'd be surprised. Their numbers grew tremendously after the police brutality came to light. And so what if "most people don't". "A lot of people do". A lot is enough for me. (don't you just love how the rest of us can use ambiguous quantifiers too?)


So focus on the crimes of capitalism (which this protest never considered a focal point)

1. Not mutually exclusive.
2. They do that a lot. Watch their livestream. Just because you get all your information of them from the NYtimes, doesn't mean that's the whole picture.



Boo-hooing is exactly whats going on and thats exactly what the left spend all its time doing.

You seem to be boo-hooing about them, more than they're boo-hooing about anything.

It's such a cop mindset. "You got maced and arrested!? Boo-hoo kiddies!!!"

[bcbm]

Interesting. In order to get people "out of that mindset", you need to show them that the police systemically do these sorts of things in defense of capitalism. You know how you do that? By letting EVERYONE know when it happens!

you can address the issue within the context of the larger issue of the police. connect it to police shootings, other events at protests where these sort of things have happened (pretty easy in new york, see rnc 04), etc. its important to show it isn't an isolated incident or an aberration that can be solved with an internal affairs investigation (guess what it will find).

[~Spectre]

Actually I do know some people there. And they're all college students/young people who are into protest politics.

This was started by adbusters for fucks sake.

Part of it was started by adbusters, other help came from other groups. It doesn't matter so much how it started, so much as where it's going. Right now there are organized workers down there, protesting and speaking with them. More are on the way. People are talking about the need to build new institutions and how reform isn't enough. This is fundamentally a good thing.

[The Douche]

Well I'll return to your posts when you want to discuss the issues instead of throwing lame insults at me.

[~Spectre]

you can address the issue within the context of the larger issue of the police. connect it to police shootings, other events at protests where these sort of things have happened (pretty easy in new york, see rnc 04), etc. its important to show it isn't an isolated incident or an aberration that can be solved with an internal affairs investigation (guess what it will find).


I agree. And a lot of them are doing that, as well as sympathetic media like Greenwald:


There's a vast and growing apparatus of intimidation designed to deter and control citizen protests. The most that's allowed is to assemble with the permission of state authorities and remain roped off in sequestered, out-of-the-way areas: the Orwellian-named free speech zones. Anything that is even remotely disruptive or threatening is going to be met with aggressive force: pepper spray, mass arrests by highly militarized urban police forces, and aggressive prosecutions. Recall the wild excesses of force in connection with the 2008 RNC Convention in Minneapolis (I reported on those firsthand); the overzealous prosecutions of civil disobedience activists like Aaron Swartz, environmentalist Tim DeChristopher, and Dan Choi; the war being waged on whistleblowers for the crime of exposing high-level wrongdoing; or the treatment of these Wall Street protesters.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/09/28/protests/index.html

____

Certainly I agree that we should help them become more focused and radical, but the personal attacks on the protesters seem entirely unproductive.

[S.Artesian]

A few things.

- I'm less than 30 minutes away by public transportation from where this is going down. I haven't heard a single mention of it since it's happened (outside of the internet, TV, and leftists I know). None of the "regular people" or dozens of working people I've talked to over the last few weeks has mentioned this at all -- including union trade workers who discuss workers questions on a daily basis and a group of locked out Teamsters that are picketing. When the struggles broke out in Madison, the whole town was talking about it. When the public square occupations took place in Egypt and Israel, it was on everyone's mind and in everyone's daily conversation. That should put some things in perspective.

In two words, "so what?" None of the "regular people" mentioned it? So what. And two more words, "not so." How many "regular people" mentioned Tahrir or Tiananman Squares before they happened? The people who were talking about it were the people who showed up to it after hearing, seeing, reading about Tunisia.

And in Madison..... uh... comrade, not to put too fine a point on it but a) Madison was a direct response to legislation targeting collective bargaining b) Madison has an extensive history of "unregular people" mobilizing and supporting mobilizations on behalf of the poor and dispossessed.

All of which is a small way of asking WTF is the BFD with this "proletkult" that says "oh, these aren't 'regular people'?" If anything ever smacked of narrow-mindedness, this surely ranks right up there. WTF is a regular person? Are you a regular person because your ancestors worked in coal mines? Am I a regular person because my grandfather fled and entered the US illegally after killing an officer in the Russian Army in 1905?


- I visited the area where this is going down and outside of the standard left groups you'd expect, I didn't encounter any individual of groups of angry working people expressing things in a class-based way. That says as much about the condition of the working class in the US as it does about the nature of these demonstrations.


The few people I talked to expressed their actions as a protest against "fascism" or something similar, that had taken the place of capitalism. I was told that they were not against capitalism, since "capitalism doesn't exist. Fascism does!" There was a lot of sentiment against "The Fed," "printing money and running up national debt," "government caused inflation," "international bankers," taxation, etc. I didn't hang around long.


Emphasis on the few you talked to, and when you talked to them. When this action was being discussed a month ago, I pointed out how fucked up and confused the organizing "principle" [no to corruption] was. But things change, conditions change. Nobody says this amounts to Flint, or Toledo or Lordstown, but then again what the fuck did Flint or Toledo or Lordstown say against capitalism? Were those organized against capitalism? Not hardly. And what did they accomplish... in the long run.

The point is struggles have to start somewhere, and where they do start they emerge as confused, fucked-up, contradictory, liberal, libertarian, utopian, idealist, reformist blahblahblah.

I would point out the actions of the Republic Window workers in 2008, seizing their factory. Who mediated on their behalf? A Democratic Congressman. What were the demands of the workers? For their severance pay. Now tell me, where's the "anti-capitalism" in that? Nowhere, except in the development of the very conditions that forced these workers to take action, and in the fact that they took the collective action. OK?

Dismissing these demonstrations and demonstrators at the very moment when workers organizations, bureaucratic as they are, have recognized a "commonality" is about as tactically poor a move as I've ever witnessed.

[~Spectre]

Well I'll return to your posts when you want to discuss the issues instead of throwing lame insults at me.

So you mean to say that antagonizing you makes you LESS likely to listen to me?

Perhaps I should engage you constructively if I want to change your mind for the better?


It's...almost as if...you've just argued against yourself.

[The Douche]

So you mean to say that antagonizing you makes you LESS likely to listen to me?

Perhaps I should engage you constructively if I want to change your mind for the better?


It's...almost as if...you've just argued against yourself.

I've laid out my critique perfectly clearly. You're just mad cause you want to think marching around in circles makes you a bad ass class warrior.

[S.Artesian]

Contrary to how you view the world, most people do not get outraged when a protestor breaks the law and gets pepper sprayed. I think its shitty but the typical response from most people will be "what did you expect". And certainly, most/all leftists expect police repression. So focus on the crimes of capitalism (which this protest never considered a focal point) and make connections to police repression.

Boo-hooing is exactly whats going on and thats exactly what the left spend all its time doing.

As Spectre has pointed out, you simply don't know what you're talking about. The reaction of "most people" to seeing this young woman sprayed who was already contained behind a police barricade and doing nothing but talking reasonably is anger and disgust with the police.

That's why that video of that incident has become such an issue.

Nobody on the left is "boo-hooing"-- I'm sure the liberals are who want to recuperate everything into police brutality, but nobody I know is boo-hooing. People I know are kind of impressed that the TWU has announced its support.

[The Douche]

The fact that TWU has voted to endorse is a positive development.

I never said this can't develop into something good. (if it developed clear, positive demands to focus on) I said it was currently just an act of political theatre.


In the longshoreman's strike when strikers were arrested for blocking a train and fighting the police they didn't make a big deal out of being repressed. They said "the cops came for our union president and we fought them off", thats the correct position. It highlights the contradiction between the police and the needs of the working class, and it makes clear what the appropriate class response to police repression is.


If protest becomes generalized that is good, if the demands are clear and revolutionary that is great. If its a bunch of nerds crying about the police not liking poor people (which is not news to anybody who is poor) then its just theatre.



Do you understand my point? I don't know how I can be more clear.

Leftists whining about left wing talking points=stupid political theatre.

The working class/dispossessed uniting with those leftists=better.

The combined forces of pro-revolutionaries and the working class learning from each other and creating demands that are revolutionary=real progress.


That's what I've been saying this whole thread.

[thriller]

And in Madison..... uh... comrade, not to put too fine a point on it but a) Madison was a direct response to legislation targeting collective bargaining b) Madison has an extensive history of "unregular people" mobilizing and supporting mobilizations on behalf of the poor and dispossessed.


To be fair, part of your statement is incorrect. Yes Madison has been referred to as "78 square miles surrounded by reality" in that it is much more liberal than the rest of the state of Wisconsin. However, I met literally hundreds of people who were from Beliot, Janesville, Kenosha, Green Bay, Wausau, Waupaca, Superior and else where. So in Madison there were plenty of workers from all over converging on Madison, the capital of Wisconsin, to speak out.
Unfortunately it seems like the only people still protesting are in Madison :/

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Dismissing these demonstrations and demonstrators at the very moment when workers organizations, bureaucratic as they are, have recognized a "commonality" is about as tactically poor a move as I've ever witnessed.This is probably the third or forth time you've let your fever get in the way of reading my post through to the end before responding to it.

From the post:

"I certainly won't condemn people for expressing anger, in this or any other way. I certainly won't condone the ruthless behavior of the cops or say that these people deserve to be brutalized, beaten, maced, etc. And I won't write the thing off completely. Despite its origins and its makeup, people with legitimate grievances are participating, cheering it on, paying attention. It's definitely tied in to the crisis of capital, and is a manifestation of the results. Besides, no one can say for sure where this will lead. Things sometimes have a way of leading to other things that no one would expect. Who would have guessed a man setting himself on fire would be the spark that let lose the Arab Spring? How many people in Hungary 1955, Russia 1916, USA 1876 could have told you major, world-historic working class uprisings were a year away?"

[tir1944]

Seems like a bunch of First World Hipsters with nothing better to do...

[S.Artesian]

This is probably the third or forth time you've let your fever get in the way of reading my post through to the end before responding to it.

From the post:

"I certainly won't condemn people for expressing anger, in this or any other way. I certainly won't condone the ruthless behavior of the cops or say that these people deserve to be brutalized, beaten, maced, etc. And I won't write the thing off completely. Despite its origins and its makeup, people with legitimate grievances are participating, cheering it on, paying attention. It's definitely tied in to the crisis of capital, and is a manifestation of the results. Besides, no one can say for sure where this will lead. Things sometimes have a way of leading to other things that no one would expect. Who would have guessed a man setting himself on fire would be the spark that let lose the Arab Spring? How many people in Hungary 1955, Russia 1916, USA 1876 could have told you major, world-historic working class uprisings were a year away?"


Oh... I read that.. it seemed like a pro-forma hedging of the position you sought to establish in the body of your post: " I wrote the thing off completely." You spend 3/4 of your article dismissing these people as not being "regular people" and then you throw in the bit at the end. Seemed to me to be a bit disingenuous, but if I'm wrong, then my apologies.


Do you understand my point? I don't know how I can be more clear.


The point is that this demonstration, the events that will soon overtake it and push it in other directions, has nothing to do with "leftists whining about cops." That's my point. And to use that "leftists whining about cops" is simply an excuse for abstentionism-- not at the beginning which I certainly understand and agree with given the nature of the political demands, but at the instant when a serious shift is about to occur.

That's my point and I don't know how I can be more clear.

[No_Leaders]

To quote Choking Victim. "Po' little lice, the po' little screws,
the whitest gang crew, the hated boys in blue.
Like scabies on the street, they infest the beat,
fucking my life but I won't admit defeat to them!
Above the law, above the law come now,
No copper will be safe till they are dead and done now.
Let's lay em down low, let's hang em up high,
Let's take all of these piggies, and have them crucified!"

But in all seriousness i think police oppression needs to be exposed. It's good that people bring these things to light, it can help radicalize folks who aren't aware of how fucked up the pigs really are. Everyone knows the gestapo isn't there to protect order, they're there to create disorder, and protect the interests of the state and the ruling class. They're nothing more but paid mercenaries and thugs who won't hesitate to bash your face in with a billy club, and people need to see them as what they truly are. I have a comrade who was at the g20 protests in Toronto and he loves choking victim and leftover crack, but never really identified with the anti-police messages they have in a lot of songs. Until he saw the cops beating peaceful protestors, tear gas, people trampled by horses etc. I think exposing the police state helps to radicalize people and make people realize we don't live in a free society.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I was just reporting on the events from my perspective for those interested. Of course even that has to be attacked...


In two words, "so what?" None of the "regular people" mentioned it? So what.

Yeah, so what. As long as some insignificant leftist weirdos and a few study groups full of graduate students talk about it that's all that really matters.


And two more words, "not so."

So you're going to tell me what the people I've been talking to every day for the last few days have had to say? Cool.


How many "regular people" mentioned Tahrir or Tiananman Squares before they happened? The people who were talking about it were the people who showed up to it after hearing, seeing, reading about Tunisia.

Which is why I said "When the struggles broke out in Madison, the whole town was talking about it. When the public square occupations took place in Egypt and Israel, it was on everyone's mind and in everyone's daily conversation." When = during. Not before. Not after. This is going on right now, and has been going on for some time.


And in Madison..... uh... comrade, not to put too fine a point on it but a) Madison was a direct response to legislation targeting collective bargaining b) Madison has an extensive history of "unregular people" mobilizing and supporting mobilizations on behalf of the poor and dispossessed.

The comparison to Madison, Egypt, Israel, etc., was brought up earlier in this thread. I was responding to it. I was explaining that this event is not a hot subject with anyone I've talked to outside of the left ghetto.


All of which is a small way of asking WTF is the BFD with this "proletkult" that says "oh, these aren't 'regular people'?" If anything ever smacked of narrow-mindedness, this surely ranks right up there.

"One class-conscious worker is worth 100 students."


WTF is a regular person?

If you have to ask...


That says as much about the condition of the working class in the US as it does about the nature of these demonstrations.

Yea, and? Does the condition of the working class matter? If the class is not willing or able to launch effective struggle does that matter? Or does any group of people protesting anything anywhere automatically become the main thing? No analysis needed?


Emphasis on the few you talked to, and when you talked to them.

I talked to the few peopleI came across who weren't with an organized group (eg. WWP) during the event itself. When else should/could I have talked to them?


But things change, conditions change. Nobody says this amounts to Flint, or Toledo or Lordstown, but then again what the fuck did Flint or Toledo or Lordstown say against capitalism? Were those organized against capitalism? Not hardly. And what did they accomplish... in the long run.

The point is struggles have to start somewhere, and where they do start they emerge as confused, fucked-up, contradictory, liberal, libertarian, utopian, idealist, reformist blahblahblah.....Dismissing these demonstrations and demonstrators at the very moment when workers organizations, bureaucratic as they are, have recognized a "commonality" is about as tactically poor a move as I've ever witnessed.

That sounds kinda like:

"I certainly won't condemn people for expressing anger, in this or any other way. I certainly won't condone the ruthless behavior of the cops or say that these people deserve to be brutalized, beaten, maced, etc. And I won't write the thing off completely. Despite its origins and its makeup, people with legitimate grievances are participating, cheering it on, paying attention. It's definitely tied in to the crisis of capital, and is a manifestation of the results. Besides, no one can say for sure where this will lead. Things sometimes have a way of leading to other things that no one would expect. Who would have guessed a man setting himself on fire would be the spark that let lose the Arab Spring? How many people in Hungary 1955, Russia 1916, USA 1876 could have told you major, world-historic working class uprisings were a year away?"

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Oh... I read that.. it seemed like a pro-forma hedging of the position you sought to establish in the body of your post: " I wrote the thing off completely."

Do you want me to tell you what your posts "seem like"?


You spend 3/4 of your article dismissing these people as not being "regular people" and then you throw in the bit at the end. Seemed to me to be a bit disingenuous, but if I'm wrong, then my apologies.

Where did I do that?

Maybe you need to get your glasses checked.. 'cause I never made any characterization of the make up of the people at the event. At all. Anywhere. I said: "none of the 'regular people' or dozens of working people I've talked to over the last few weeks has mentioned this at all -- including union trade workers who discuss workers questions on a daily basis and a group of locked out Teamsters that are picketing." I talked about the composition of the people I've talked to, not the composition of the people at the action.

[The Douche]

The point is that this demonstration, the events that will soon overtake it and push it in other directions, has nothing to do with "leftists whining about cops." That's my point. And to use that "leftists whining about cops" is simply an excuse for abstentionism-- not at the beginning which I certainly understand and agree with given the nature of the political demands, but at the instant when a serious shift is about to occur

Re: A Shift occurring:

At the time that I posted my criticism of leftist boo-hooing no such shift seemed eminent. And the story was still being ignored. Also, lets note that it was not the story of police repression which pushed this action to become generalized, it was just the pressure from the rank and file of a union. (fancy that)

It is still not clear that a shift is guaranteed, but it could materialize. And if so the emphasis will surely have to shift from boo-hooing to concrete revolutionary demands, the likes of which currently do not exist. (the language coming from this protest has been pro-capitalist to a degree, and certainly not anti-capitalist)

If the struggle does become generalized then I assure you, it will have my support, and odds are, I'll even make my way up there. But if it does, it will be an exception, and not the rule. Wisconsin was generalized because it was an organic expression of the working class, this could become such an organic expression, or not...

[S.Artesian]

Well if you do come to NYC, let me know. I'll buy you a beer or two.

[RED DAVE]

Re: A Shift occurring:

At the time that I posted my criticism of leftist boo-hooing no such shift seemed eminent. And the story was still being ignored. Also, lets note that it was not the story of police repression which pushed this action to become generalized, it was just the pressure from the rank and file of a union. (fancy that)

It is still not clear that a shift is guaranteed, but it could materialize. And if so the emphasis will surely have to shift from boo-hooing to concrete revolutionary demands, the likes of which currently do not exist. (the language coming from this protest has been pro-capitalist to a degree, and certainly not anti-capitalist)

If the struggle does become generalized then I assure you, it will have my support, and odds are, I'll even make my way up there. But if it does, it will be an exception, and not the rule. Wisconsin was generalized because it was an organic expression of the working class, this could become such an organic expression, or not...I live only a few miles from the site; I haven't been able to get down there. It is being covered lightly on TV.

It is possible that a shift has occurred. I get the feeling, always a shitty way to judge things, that the crappy state of the economy and the good will shown by the demonstrators may have caused some new developments. Now that's a very big "may," so let's not get our hopes up, but participate to the extent we can and watch the situation very closely.

The break will come when some union clearly and unambiguously endorses the demo. Large-scale participation by student groups could also tip things over, but that's less likely.

Whew!

RED DAVE

[S.Artesian]

This:


Yeah, so what. As long as some insignificant leftist weirdos and a few study groups full of graduate students talk about it that's all that really matters.

is why discussion is so fucking fruitless. You say stuff like that... but anybody responding to that tone and content is "in a fever" "has to attack."

And then it's followed with this

and this:


"One class-conscious worker is worth 100 students."


and this:

Or does any group of people protesting anything anywhere automatically become the main thing? No analysis needed?

The first being............ah, irrelevant since we're not establishing a scale here... not to mention the fact that by historical definition a single, solitary "class conscious" worker cannot exist as a single solitary class conscious worker and be "worth" anything. The class conscious worker is a social force, the consciousness is a product of collective development. Not to put too fine a point on such ridiculous sloganeering and the adherence to the relations of value, worth.

And the second being... a strawman... since nobody has suggested any such thing. Analysis is exactly what is needed. Talking about "regular people" and cmoney's "boo-hooing" about the police does not register as analysis.

Other than that, I agree with everything you say.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

not to mention the fact that by historical definition a single, solitary "class conscious" worker cannot exist as a single solitary class conscious worker and be "worth" anything. The class conscious worker is a social force, the consciousness is a product of collective development. Not to put too fine a point on such ridiculous sloganeering and the adherence to the relations of value, worth.

lol

You get what you put in. Your criticism of my use of the term "regular people" (in quotes) with a load of rhetoric isn't really the kind of thing I'm going to sit down and draft a thought out response to. Especially when the old Detroit Revolutionary Union Movement slogan will do. And yeah, it's a slogan, not an obscure in-depth jargon-loaded academic analysis. Which is part of the point...

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Here's something to give you some perspective on this event:

MANHATTAN — Hundreds of people descended on a Lower Manhattan park Friday afternoon in the wake of rumors that Radiohead was going to play a surprise concert for the Occupy Wall Street protest — only to learn that the claim, which sparked a flurry of chatter on the Internet, was a "hoax."

"It is 110 percent our fault," Occupy Wall Street spokesman Patrick Bruner told DNAinfo.com. "[Radiohead] deserve no blame for this.

"This is a hoax that originated independently of Radiohead and was picked up by our organization."

The news drew a torrent of angry reactions.

"Hey @occupywallstNYC way to lie about @Radiohead and kill your credibility. Go home," wrote @WallStRes on Twitter.

And @diggrbiii R tweeted: "Great start to a movement, guys. The organizers LIED about Radiohead
so more people would show up. #occupywallstreet."

Others appeared to gloat about drawing attention to the cause.

"We got thousands down here at #OccupyWallStreet after telling them Radiohead were coming...tomorrow we'll promise Justin Beiber and Jay-Z!," tweeted @The99Pct.

Just hours earlier, Bruner sent out an email saying that band was confirmed to play at Zuccotti Park, near the World Trade Center, where the protesters, who are rallying against Wall Street greed, have been camped out since Sept. 17.

"Radiohead will play a surprise show for #occupywallstreet today at four in the afternoon," Bruner wrote in an email.

The possibility of the performance by the popular British band, in town for a pair of shows at the Roseland Ballroom as well as a series of TV appearances, sparked a whirl of speculation on the internet.

"Expect a MESS. MT @michaelmiraflor So basically run TOWARDS or run AWAY from Wall Street at 4pm today #Radiohead #OccupyWallStreet," wrote @barbrats.

Others were skeptical.

"If Radiohead rumor is true, where will they play? There isn't enough room, or enough power, at Liberty Plaza," wrote @DarylLang.

But almost as soon as the rumor mill began churning, word began to emerge that the band may not be playing.

"Officially not happening," the band's spokesman, Steve Martin, of Nasty Little Man, wrote in an email to DNAinfo.com. "Never was. Sorry.

"First any of us heard of it were the rumors."

Later, the band took to Facebook to reiterate the point: "We wish the best of luck to the protesters, but contrary to earlier rumours, we will not be appearing today at Occupy Wall Street."

And some 40 minutes before the rumored 4 p.m. start of the show, Occupy Wall Street Bruner backed off the group's earlier claim.

"The concert is unconfirmed," he wrote. "Sorry about this - I'm in the dark as much as you as to what's going on right now."

The confusion left some who made the trip to the group's downtown encampment, where the crowd swelled in the wake of the annoucement, with mixed feelings.

Drew Nelson, 32, of Williamsburg, who works in finance, said that he was "getting hated on for asking where [the concert] is going to be."

People were asking: “Are you here for the cause or are you here for Radiohead?”

“On the one hand I don’t think it’s a good idea to lie to people to get them down here," Nelson said, although he did not suggest that organizers were lying.

Jessica Augier, 23, a student at the New York Acadmey of Art in Tribeca, trekked over to the park to try to catch a glimpse of the band.

"I cried on the day I couldn’t get tickets," she said of the show at Roseland. Augier said that she was “bouncing around” and “skipping down the street on the way here” at the prospect of seeing the band.

But she was resigned to the fact that Radiohead might not play. "I kind of anticipate they’re not going to show," she said. "It’s nice to be outside. It’s a beautiful day.”

Ben Esler, 28, of the West Village, an actor who moved three weeks ago from Los Angeles, appeared to agree.

“I wanted to check [the protest] out anyway, but [the concert] was an incentive," he said.

“It would be fine,” if the group doesn't show up, he added.

Occupy Wall Street organizers held a press conference at 1 p.m. announcing the show and saying that a planned march on NYPD headquarters was canceled as a result.

Alex Carvalho, 28, said that the Occupy Wall Street Arts and Culture Committee Thursday, which he says he is a part of, received an email from someone affiliated with Radiohead saying they wanted to “support people on the ground," but asked the protesters not to announce anything until noon.

Carvalho, a med school grad, says that the protesters did not apply for a permit for the show and were bewildered as to why a Radiohead spokesman countered the group's claim.

But Radiohead's website and Twitter feed made no mention of the show.

Since protesters are not allowed to use microphones or bullhorns, they make an announcement and everyone in the crowed repeats it.

After the announcement was made about the show, they said: "I hope we remember why we’re here. It’s not for a band or a show. It’s to build a better world."

Read more: http://www.dnainfo.com/20110930/manhattan/radiohead-play-surprise-show-at-occupy-wall-street-protesters-say#ixzz1ZTj0C1cL

[Ele'ill]

So the demonstration is further deteriorating?

My critical opinion- Why are demonstrators on the ground and at the scene seemingly becoming giddy with their fingers crossed that a rock band will come and boost their morale for them?


That would make me feel incapable and extremely embarrassed.

[~Spectre]

So the demonstration is further deteriorating?



No. They're getting growing union support, and have taken over 7000 people over to a march to surround Police HQ. Once their, they've sat down and are now chanting about "Imperialism", "capitalism", things like that.

[The Douche]

From the perspective of somebody who loves trolling. That was fucking awesome. From the prospective of somebody who considers themselves a communist and take it (somewhat) seriously... oof.

[~Spectre]

Here's something to give you some perspective on this event:


What perspective is gathered from cherry picked tweets? Anyone can do that. For instance:

TheJklassick Kid_Klassick
while the majority of us are occupying our couches there are some determined souls out there #occupywallstreet kudos i wish i was there #NY

Hiram_nl Anarchy is order
“@allisonkilkenny: Here are the public servants filming protesters #occupywallstreet twitpic.com/6t1f67” Just like in East Germany.
17 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

charenton_ Miranda Nelson
THOUSANDS out at One Police Plaza right now! Watch live livestre.am/PlNN via @livestream #occupywallstreet

ProfessorOM Christopher Hines
This literally brought a tear 2 my eye »RT @OccupyWallSt: twitpic.com/6t1g0x Woah! It's really feeling like a revolution #OccupyWallStreet

mceoin Eoin McMillan
The #OccupyWallSt #protest is really picking up steam. I hope they're doing ok bit.ly/n2QfIP #occupywallstreet
20 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

LeilZahra Leil-Zahra Mortada
RT @nicknicemadison: fascism plain & simple. FoxNews Discrediting female protestors being Pep Sprayed


And that's just from the last few minutes of having twitter open. There are literally thousands more. What perspective were you trying to give?

[S.Artesian]

lol

You get what you put in. Your criticism of my use of the term "regular people" (in quotes) with a load of rhetoric isn't really the kind of thing I'm going to sit down and draft a thought out response to. Especially when the old Detroit Revolutionary Union Movement slogan will do. And yeah, it's a slogan, not an obscure in-depth jargon-loaded academic analysis. Which is part of the point...


Please don't bother.

Point of history-- the slogan was used by John Watson who put it under the masthead of the student newspaper he EDIT: edited at Wayne State University, The South End.

Kind of funny.

[Rising Sun]

Ha Ha Ha.

Bummed out hipsters expected to see Radiohead play some cramped park!Thats a riot

[CynicalIdealist]

Here's something to give you some perspective on this event:

MANHATTAN — Hundreds of people descended on a Lower Manhattan park Friday afternoon in the wake of rumors that Radiohead was going to play a surprise concert for the Occupy Wall Street protest — only to learn that the claim, which sparked a flurry of chatter on the Internet, was a "hoax."

"It is 110 percent our fault," Occupy Wall Street spokesman Patrick Bruner told DNAinfo.com. "[Radiohead] deserve no blame for this.

"This is a hoax that originated independently of Radiohead and was picked up by our organization."

The news drew a torrent of angry reactions.

"Hey @occupywallstNYC way to lie about @Radiohead and kill your credibility. Go home," wrote @WallStRes on Twitter.

And @diggrbiii R tweeted: "Great start to a movement, guys. The organizers LIED about Radiohead
so more people would show up. #occupywallstreet."

Others appeared to gloat about drawing attention to the cause.

"We got thousands down here at #OccupyWallStreet after telling them Radiohead were coming...tomorrow we'll promise Justin Beiber and Jay-Z!," tweeted @The99Pct.

Just hours earlier, Bruner sent out an email saying that band was confirmed to play at Zuccotti Park, near the World Trade Center, where the protesters, who are rallying against Wall Street greed, have been camped out since Sept. 17.

"Radiohead will play a surprise show for #occupywallstreet today at four in the afternoon," Bruner wrote in an email.

The possibility of the performance by the popular British band, in town for a pair of shows at the Roseland Ballroom as well as a series of TV appearances, sparked a whirl of speculation on the internet.

"Expect a MESS. MT @michaelmiraflor So basically run TOWARDS or run AWAY from Wall Street at 4pm today #Radiohead #OccupyWallStreet," wrote @barbrats.

Others were skeptical.

"If Radiohead rumor is true, where will they play? There isn't enough room, or enough power, at Liberty Plaza," wrote @DarylLang.

But almost as soon as the rumor mill began churning, word began to emerge that the band may not be playing.

"Officially not happening," the band's spokesman, Steve Martin, of Nasty Little Man, wrote in an email to DNAinfo.com. "Never was. Sorry.

"First any of us heard of it were the rumors."

Later, the band took to Facebook to reiterate the point: "We wish the best of luck to the protesters, but contrary to earlier rumours, we will not be appearing today at Occupy Wall Street."

And some 40 minutes before the rumored 4 p.m. start of the show, Occupy Wall Street Bruner backed off the group's earlier claim.

"The concert is unconfirmed," he wrote. "Sorry about this - I'm in the dark as much as you as to what's going on right now."

The confusion left some who made the trip to the group's downtown encampment, where the crowd swelled in the wake of the annoucement, with mixed feelings.

Drew Nelson, 32, of Williamsburg, who works in finance, said that he was "getting hated on for asking where [the concert] is going to be."

People were asking: “Are you here for the cause or are you here for Radiohead?”

“On the one hand I don’t think it’s a good idea to lie to people to get them down here," Nelson said, although he did not suggest that organizers were lying.

Jessica Augier, 23, a student at the New York Acadmey of Art in Tribeca, trekked over to the park to try to catch a glimpse of the band.

"I cried on the day I couldn’t get tickets," she said of the show at Roseland. Augier said that she was “bouncing around” and “skipping down the street on the way here” at the prospect of seeing the band.

But she was resigned to the fact that Radiohead might not play. "I kind of anticipate they’re not going to show," she said. "It’s nice to be outside. It’s a beautiful day.”

Ben Esler, 28, of the West Village, an actor who moved three weeks ago from Los Angeles, appeared to agree.

“I wanted to check [the protest] out anyway, but [the concert] was an incentive," he said.

“It would be fine,” if the group doesn't show up, he added.

Occupy Wall Street organizers held a press conference at 1 p.m. announcing the show and saying that a planned march on NYPD headquarters was canceled as a result.

Alex Carvalho, 28, said that the Occupy Wall Street Arts and Culture Committee Thursday, which he says he is a part of, received an email from someone affiliated with Radiohead saying they wanted to “support people on the ground," but asked the protesters not to announce anything until noon.

Carvalho, a med school grad, says that the protesters did not apply for a permit for the show and were bewildered as to why a Radiohead spokesman countered the group's claim.

But Radiohead's website and Twitter feed made no mention of the show.

Since protesters are not allowed to use microphones or bullhorns, they make an announcement and everyone in the crowed repeats it.

After the announcement was made about the show, they said: "I hope we remember why we’re here. It’s not for a band or a show. It’s to build a better world."

Read more: http://www.dnainfo.com/20110930/manhattan/radiohead-play-surprise-show-at-occupy-wall-street-protesters-say#ixzz1ZTj0C1cL

Proof positive that these protests are a joke.

[~Spectre]

Proof positive that these protests are a joke.

You have a strange sense of proof. Cherry picked tweets from events involving tens of thousands of people? Not quite a "QED" moment.

[Ele'ill]

I fail to see what kind of labor support (outside of non-tactic gestures and perhaps marching and standing in solidarity) the demo will get without a detailed goal or set of plans. What is the strategy? What has been organized?

[S.Artesian]

Proof positive that these protests are a joke.

Let's see if I got this right:

1. the organizing principle for these protests is, in a word, pathetic: basically "no to corruption."

2. the actual motivation for many protesting is unknown, but it is safe to presume it has something to do with the direction of the economy, unemployment, increasing poverty, bailouts for banks, attacks on wages, benefits, etc.

3. the protests are pretty low key, nonmilitant, and easily contained by the police, ignored by the media.

4. the protests don't actually die out, and the police, as the police will do, stir things up with the use of pepper spray, mace, arrests etc. etc.

5. Protests gain some publicity. Background: Protestors move and register support for the postal workers who, facing possible severe cutbacks, were assembled to hear a speech by a Democratic congressman.

6. More Background: The NY State Public Workers Federation rejects a contract essentially reducing their pay, and requiring health care givebacks.

7. TWU, already having been subjected to severe cuts, announces its solidarity with the demonstrations. Possible support may be forthcoming for other NYC unions.

8. Somebody pulls a hoax about a rock group.... and that proves exactly what? People like rock and roll? Apolitical types will go anywhere to hear free music? Demonstrations by students, marginally employed are "jokes" because a scam is run regarding a rock group?

Would anyone here argue that "8" follows from 1 through 7?

Hope not.

[Ele'ill]

I'd say the response to the rock group sort of summarizes the other negative aspects of how this demonstration came to be. I'm not saying it doesn't have potential. I think it does. I think some things need to change at some point.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Point of history-- the slogan was used by John Watson who put it under the masthead of the student newspaper he EDIT: edited at Wayne State University, The South End.

Kind of funny.

I'm sure I don't have to tell you that Watson was on the Executive Board of the League of Revolutionary Black Workers. He only enrolled in class at Wayne State to get active with the paper. He became editor and took control of it. He put that slogan on the masthead and had the paper distributed off campus, at places like factory gates during shift change. His stated intention was to transform it from a student paper into a voice for the "victims of capitalism." For this, he drew the wrath of the administration.

The fact that the paper was campus based was of course the entire point of the slogan, so I really have no idea what point you're trying to make.

[S.Artesian]

As I said, when this demonstration came up for discussion in August, I thought it was the most confused, pathetic proposal I had seen in awhile, not because it was student based or not "worker enough" but because it has such piss-poor politics. Actually, I thought it was designed as a publicity stunt for somebody hawking a website or something.

I still think it has piss-poor politics. And I think those who organized it want to, are hoping, that somebody figures out a way to "co-opt" them-- kind of like McCarthy kids looking for a McCarthy.

However it looks like something else is happening--- that simply saying "occupy Wall Street" appeals to working people; to those who've had too much too often of the short end of the stick.

[ВАЛТЕР]

J5j0j2EnGEg

[S.Artesian]

I'm sure I don't have to tell you that Watson was on the Executive Board of the League of Revolutionary Black Workers. He only enrolled in class at Wayne State to get active with the paper. He became editor and took control of it. He put that slogan on the masthead and had the paper distributed off campus, at places like factory gates during shift change. His stated intention was to transform it from a student paper into a voice for the "victims of capitalism." For this, he drew the wrath of the administration.

The fact that the paper was campus based was of course the entire point of the slogan, so I really have no idea what point you're trying to make.


Yeah, I knew all that. The point is that he used a student publication as the vector, the vehicle for developing or facilitating class consciousness among workers.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Um.. he wanted to turn from a student publication into something else, but by now we're off topic.


not because it was student based or not "worker enough" but because it has such piss-poor politics.

Politics reflect class content, interests, etc.

[DaringMehring]

Your signature makes your comment on this event well enough. You don't even need text really.

You write a good leaflet though, judged by your Verizon one. Maybe you should reconsider non-involvement.

[bietan jarrai]

As I've learned by the protests here in Portugal - In the case of non-party protests and struggles, non-union non-organized unconcious movements go nowhere.
As an example, I'll use the "Geração à Rasca" or "Movimento 12 de Março" (12th March Movement). The Movimento 12 de Março (let's call it M12M) resulted from this rally:

0sY1lp6-_NU

Yes, it was huge. However anyone that had the smallest bit of class consciousness knew that this would lead to nothing -and it did. The first rally, that one, worked great (even though it consisted mainly of stoners and middle-class petty-bourgeoisie kids who had nothing else to do, plus the hipsters taking photos). Then this enormous discussion emerged. What should they do next? Form a party? Do another rally? Promote violence and direct action? From this, it started to split and people started to get disappointed. The next rally had much less people. I'm waiting to see how October 15th will be going down, but I don't expect much. Anyway, whatever, obviously the union can take a lot more people to the streets (at least here).

Capitalism is a pressure cooker - and these non-organized protest only serve to release some of the pressure so it can go on and on. Unless we can turn these protests into a class conscious demonstration, they are going to lead to nowhere and shouldn't be valued.

With that said, this however seems to be going in a somewhat good direction - as I said, raising class awareness will be essential for it to have impact and consequences.

[S.Artesian]

Um.. he wanted to turn from a student publication into something else, but by now we're off topic.

Yeah, that's what he wanted. Exactly


Politics reflect class content, interests, etc.

And yes again, but not automatically, not linearly, not without gradations, conflicts, contradictions etc.

As I said, would never have endorsed it based on its politics; still don't "endorse" it because of its politics. Still think this protest can lead to something never intended, and indeed terrifying to its original organizers.

And I went back and reread your initial post in this exchange-- I misread your comments and apologize. You were not dismissing it out of hand. The use of the term "regular people" just pissed me off.

[infearoffear]

Is it just me or does it seem like whenever the left organizes a popular demonstration there are always the hardliners on this site who are "too good for it". What I mean by that is they always find something to complain about like "it doesnt have enough class consciousness" "its not anti-capitalist enough" or "there's too many stoner/hipsters/college students" (lol thats a good one as if that bear any relevance on the merits of whether an ideology is sound). I mean im not saying we shouldn't criticize our demonstrations and political movements but like someone said before its not like a class-conscious movement is just going to appear out of thin air, and if youre not taking any action or doing anything to get your ideas out there then are you really anything more than an internet troll whining about the state of leftism

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

It's just you.

[Orange Juche]

Is it just me or does it seem like whenever the left organizes a popular demonstration there are always the hardliners on this site who are "too good for it". What I mean by that is they always find something to complain about like "it doesnt have enough class consciousness" "its not anti-capitalist enough" or "there's too many stoner/hipsters/college students" (lol thats a good one as if that bear any relevance on the merits of whether an ideology is sound). I mean im not saying we shouldn't criticize our demonstrations and political movements but like someone said before its not like a class-conscious movement is just going to appear out of thin air, and if youre not taking any action or doing anything to get your ideas out there then are you really anything more than an internet troll whining about the state of leftism

My issue isn't with the left. It's that all the Ron Paul-ites are tagging on and mucking everything up.

[infearoffear]

Sooooo... instead of trying to propagate a class-consciousness among the people occupying Wall street we should just abandon the whole thing because "theyre a bunch of dum hipsters nd trendy cawllege students who will never acheive class conshusness becuz theyre too middle calss and bourgois". Dont you think thats kind of cynical?

[infearoffear]

My issue isn't with the left. It's that all the Ron Paul-ites are tagging on and mucking everything up.

Ok well this I can understand. Why anyone who supports Ron Paul would engage in a protest like this is beyond me.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Sooooo... instead of trying to propagate a class-consciousness among the people occupying Wall street we should just abandon the whole thing because "theyre a bunch of dum hipsters nd trendy cawllege students who will never acheive class conshusness becuz theyre too middle calss and bourgois". Dont you think thats kind of cynical?

Where did that quote come from? Your ass?

[black magick hustla]

AttackGr is totally right. If you don't like the way the protest is going or the way it sounds to others, then get in their and fucking change it. If you are just going to wait around for some mass political class oriented movement to magically appear tomorrow before you get involved, then just become a republican so you can defend your laziness. This has the potential to become HUGE. But only if WE do something about it. Don't wait until the coast is clear to spring from your armchair, because you will find everyone else saying to you "where the fuck have you been?" If you don't like something, change it. If you fail to change it, you'll be in the same place that you are now. Change the world or GTFO. Don't criticize others for having the strength to take mace at point blank for what they believe when you don't.

first, this is a misunderstanding on how class struggle works. it has nothing to do with you and all the leftist wingnuts putting up a show. it never had, the mangificent orgies of violence against the ruling classes, the state, and property are almost always unexpected, when "weeks happen in days". i am not against the wall street protests but i am not going to endorse them uncritically and shut my brain down simply because some activisty motherfuckers on the internet go by the dictum of "the more i do the better i am" and get offended because someone dared to be skeptical. if you want me to toot your horne because you took some shitty mace point blank congrats, however your martyrizing impulse is not that spectacular. the truth is that the occupy wallstreet event, while not negative, is a spectacle put up by the activist ghetto, and it was organized by word in the internet through moonbat websites and blogs. sitting on my ass and posting this on the internet is about as productive as that. when real organic skirmishes against capital happen, i bet my ass that half of those people would be denouncing it and scared by it. (refer to the liberal left and their treatment on the london riots)

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Why anyone who supports Ron Paul would engage in a protest like this is beyond me.

Ever read about fascism? The rhetoric against "greedy bankers," "Wall St vs. Main Street," "the Fed," etc.?

[infearoffear]

Where did that quote come from? Your ass?



Ha Ha Ha.

Bummed out hipsters expected to see Radiohead play some cramped park!Thats a riot





The Working Families Party and some liberal celebs will be there too.

Yeah, so what. As long as some insignificant leftist weirdos and a few study groups full of graduate students talk about it that's all that really matters.

"One class-conscious worker is worth 100 students."


[QUOTE=cmoney;2247621]Actually I do know some people there. And they're all college students/young people who are into protest politics.

This was started by adbusters for fucks sake.



Seems like a bunch of First World Hipsters with nothing better to do...

[black magick hustla]

Is it just me or does it seem like whenever the left organizes a popular demonstration there are always the hardliners on this site who are "too good for it". What I mean by that is they always find something to complain about like "it doesnt have enough class consciousness" "its not anti-capitalist enough" or "there's too many stoner/hipsters/college students" (lol thats a good one as if that bear any relevance on the merits of whether an ideology is sound). I mean im not saying we shouldn't criticize our demonstrations and political movements but like someone said before its not like a class-conscious movement is just going to appear out of thin air, and if youre not taking any action or doing anything to get your ideas out there then are you really anything more than an internet troll whining about the state of leftism

sorry for making fun of ur bongos and longhairs next time ill be nicer :):):):):):)

[infearoffear]

Ever read about fascism? The rhetoric against "greedy bankers," "Wall St vs. Main Street," "the Fed," etc.?

Ok so would you rather get involved and try to steer this bubbling up of anger leftward or should we just sit back and let fascism take root?

[Ztrain]

The fact is anticorporate rage is spreading with a (chucle) domino effect. First the protests in Madison and now in Wall Street and soon in Chicago

[infearoffear]

sorry for making fun of ur bongos and longhairs next time ill be nicer :):):):):):)
:rolleyes:
The point Im trying to get across is that criticizing a movement based on something as superficial as fashion or lifestyle instead of actual ideology is stupid

[Lobotomy]

:rolleyes:
The point Im trying to get across is that criticizing a movement based on something as superficial as fashion or lifestyle instead of actual ideology is stupid

I think they're criticizing more along the lines of class, not necessarily lifestyle.

[the Leftâ„¢]

I don't see how this is framed against "bourgeois democracy" (whatever that is supposed to mean). Attacking Wall St. for capitalism's ills is a very popular sentiment amongst many factions of the bourgeoisie. In times of economic crisis certain factions of the capitalist class not only attack the working class but help foster anti-financial capital sentiment as well.

If we want to move this class movement forward, our rhetoric has to specifically emphasize that Wall St. is not at fault for the economic crisis. We must make clear that Wall St. is a symptom of capitalism itself. The roots of the crisis are far deeper than bankers playing around with money.

One bad thing about focusing entirely upon financial capitalists is the potential of it being co-opted by the right or the left* and being used to spread anti-Semitic propaganda. If we blame the Wall St. bankers for our ills, who a lot happen to be Jewish, it is not too far a step for people to make the false connection.

*Darling child of the "anti-imperialist" left and Green Party presidential candidate Cynthia McKinney has put blame for the crisis on "moneylenders" (a term I have NEVER seen used outside of an anti-Semitic context) and positively reviewed and recommended a book by Matthias Chang titled "The Shadow Moneylenders" which explicitely blames "Jewish bankers" for the world's ills.

You make actually a really good point. We need to distinguish as radicals that the institution of wall street is not be the problem but rather another side effect of a much more horrid beast. When people blame Wall Street and financial capitalism for what happened they just rationalize in their head " its X group of people fucking over my life, not x economic system".

[Blackscare]

The more I go on this site the more I realize that most "revolutionaries" today are actually petrified of taking any sort of action or things "actually getting real". To be clear, I don't think that this is the storming of the Bastille or something, but I'm also not about to hind behind the cover puritanical snobbery to justify what is basically cowardice.

[Blackscare]

To be clear, I meant "revolutionaries" on this site.

[black magick hustla]

The more I go on this site the more I realize that most "revolutionaries" today are actually petrified of taking any sort of action or things "actually getting real". To be clear, I don't think that this is the storming of the Bastille or something, but I'm also not about to hind behind the cover puritanical snobbery to justify what is basically cowardice.

i think most people who are near the nyc area in this thread and are critical of the movement actually checked this thing out but whatever bruh, dont let them stop you from being stereotypical activist adressing those lazy "armchair revolutionaries" while u sell workers world or whatever leftist racket you are into now

[black magick hustla]

this is a discussion forum btw, if yall want someone to jerk u off or finger you why not get a boyfriend or girlfriend

[BootOnFace]

I'm part of the Portland, OR support rally for the Occupation of Wall St. and the main reason for these protests and occupations is to raise class consciousness and to show people around the country that they aren't alone when they look at this country and see that capitalism isn't working.

This is just the first step. Our demands are modest, but this is but the beginning. I don't truly believe that this is a socialist movement, but it is an anti-capitalism movement. I won't just stand by and do nothing. I do what I can and that isn't much in this current political environment, but where people will stand against capitalism and the state I will stand with them. They may not be ideologically pure or be of the working class, but what is worse? A stand against capitalism that is bound to fail, or no stand at all?

[Delenda Carthago]

Is there anything better going on in East Coast right now? Anything "healthier" if you will?

[bietan jarrai]

Is it just me or does it seem like whenever the left organizes a popular demonstration there are always the hardliners on this site who are "too good for it". What I mean by that is they always find something to complain about like "it doesnt have enough class consciousness" "its not anti-capitalist enough" or "there's too many stoner/hipsters/college students" (lol thats a good one as if that bear any relevance on the merits of whether an ideology is sound). I mean im not saying we shouldn't criticize our demonstrations and political movements but like someone said before its not like a class-conscious movement is just going to appear out of thin air, and if youre not taking any action or doing anything to get your ideas out there then are you really anything more than an internet troll whining about the state of leftism

No, I only do that with non-leftist movements :rolleyes:

[Blackscare]

i think most people who are near the nyc area in this thread and are critical of the movement actually checked this thing out but whatever bruh, dont let them stop you from being stereotypical activist adressing those lazy "armchair revolutionaries" while u sell workers world or whatever leftist racket you are into now

I'm actually not into any leftist "racket" or anything of the sort. I just find it kind of interesting how pretty much any anti-government/union/whatever action taken in the west seems to be met with instant dismissal by the majority of users here. It's either because they think that avoiding and dismissing mass action of any type that is not strictly marxist will somehow conjure militants out of the earth or they're afraid that their comfortable little theoretical niche may be disrupted by actual independent mass action. And I'm not just chastising "armchair revolutionaries", active members of leftist groups that avoid these sorts of things on puritanical grounds are just as bad. Just a bunch of smug assholes with no interest in actually linking up with the working class just as things seem to be getting interesting.

[S.Artesian]

I'm part of the Portland, OR support rally for the Occupation of Wall St. and the main reason for these protests and occupations is to raise class consciousness and to show people around the country that they aren't alone when they look at this country and see that capitalism isn't working.

This is just the first step. Our demands are modest,

What are the demands?

[Jalapeno Enema]

Occupy STL is today.

http://www.occupystl.org/forum/index.php

Starts at Soldier's Memorial at 11AM, march to the Federal Reserve Bank on Locust.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Is there anything better going on in East Coast right now? Anything "healthier" if you will?

There was a concert by the Black Eyed Peas in Central Park last night that drew about 5 times the people as the biggest rally on Wall Street so far. :thumbup1:

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I'm actually not into any leftist "racket" or anything of the sort. I just find it kind of interesting how pretty much any anti-government/union/whatever action taken in the west seems to be met with instant dismissal by the majority of users here. It's either because they think that avoiding and dismissing mass action of any type that is not strictly marxist will somehow conjure militants out of the earth or they're afraid that their comfortable little theoretical niche may be disrupted by actual independent mass action. And I'm not just chastising "armchair revolutionaries", active members of leftist groups that avoid these sorts of things on puritanical grounds are just as bad. Just a bunch of smug assholes with no interest in actually linking up with the working class just as things seem to be getting interesting.

Actually, seems to me the majority of users here blindly cheerlead any and all activities of any stripe, from reformist protests to state security agencies forming unions (http://www.revleft.com/vb/airport-screeners-get-t157163/index.html) to the firebombings of fur stores (http://www.revleft.com/vb/alf-sets-fire-t161749/index.html).

There have been some real outbreaks of class struggle in recent months (45,000 Verizon workers on strike on the East Coast (http://www.revleft.com/vb/verizon-workers-fight-t159742/index.html), the events in Madison, the events with the ILWU on the West Coast (http://www.revleft.com/vb/ilwu-longshoremen-storm-t160931/index.html)recently). I think militants got involved with those actions to the extent they could.

I don't think evaluations, analysis, criticism and deciding whether or not an action has potential has anything to do with "puritanism."

[S.Artesian]

Actually, seems to me the majority of users here blindly cheerlead any and all activities of any stripe, from reformist protests to state security agencies forming unions (http://www.revleft.com/vb/airport-screeners-get-t157163/index.html) to the firebombings of fur stores (http://www.revleft.com/vb/alf-sets-fire-t161749/index.html).

There have been some real outbreaks of class struggle in recent months (45,000 Verizon workers on strike on the East Coast (http://www.revleft.com/vb/verizon-workers-fight-t159742/index.html), the events in Madison, the events with the ILWU on the West Coast (http://www.revleft.com/vb/ilwu-longshoremen-storm-t160931/index.html)recently). I think militants got involved with those actions to the extent they could.

I don't think evaluations, analysis, criticism and deciding whether or not an action has potential has anything to do with "puritanism."


Not to put too fine a point on it, since I don't know what NHIA means by "here," but the it doesn't seem like the majority of users on those threads are "blindly cheerleading" anything.

Let's just say in an open forum, purposely open to left opinions of all stripes, you are going to get opinions of all stripes. That's OK with me.

But the issue here is one of political programs. The demonstrations have to change their slogans, their targets, and their goals. Can these demonstrations do that? Probably not by themselves. Can they be replaced by something, triggered by these demonstrations, that does? Now that presents a real possibility, IMO.

[Crux]

There was a concert by the Black Eyed Peas in Central Park last night that drew about 5 times the people as the biggest rally on Wall Street so far. :thumbup1:
So?

[RadioRaheem84]

There was a concert by the Black Eyed Peas in Central Park last night that drew about 5 times the people as the biggest rally on Wall Street so far. :thumbup1:


The Black Eyes Peas concert was not connected to the rallies on Wall St?

Good lord, more people come out to see a the BEPs? I had a feeling this rally would end up going nowhere.

[S.Artesian]

So?


Comrade, if you ever saw the BEPs, you wouldn't be saying "so?"

[RadioRaheem84]

:thumbup1::lol:

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I actually like a few of their songs :(

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Sorry to hear that.

In other news:

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Protesters who have camped out near Wall Street for two weeks marched on Friday on police headquarters in Manhattan over what they viewed as a heavy-handed police response to a previous demonstration.

The Occupy Wall Street movement, whose members have vowed to stay through the winter, are protesting issues including the 2008 bank bailouts, foreclosures and high unemployment.

More than 1,000 people marched past City Hall and arrived at a plaza outside police headquarters in the late afternoon. Some held banners criticizing police, while others chanted: "We are the 99 percent" and "The banks got bailed out, we got sold out."

Workers from the financial district on their way home watched as the marchers passed, with some saying it was not obvious what outcome organizers of the Occupy Wall Street movement wanted.

Police observed the march and kept protesters on the sidewalk, but no clashes were reported. Police said no arrests were made before the protest dispersed peaceably by 8 p.m. after the march.

"No to the NYPD crackdown on Wall St. protesters," organizers had said on their website, promoting the march. Other online flyers for the march read: "No to Stop-and-Frisk in Black & Latino neighborhoods" and "No to Spying and Harassment of Muslim Communities."

The protest came less than a week after police arrested 80 people during a march to the bustling Union Square shopping district, the most arrests by New York police at a demonstration since hundreds were detained outside the Republican National Convention in 2004.

A police commander used pepper spray on four women at last weekend's march and a video of the incident went viral on the Internet, angering many protesters who vowed to continue their protests indefinitely.

Police have said pepper spray was a better alternative than night sticks to subdue those blocking traffic.

RIGHT TO PROTEST

Friday's crowd appeared to have been boosted by an announcement that the rock band Radiohead would perform at 4 p.m. Later, organizers said on their website, "Radiohead will not being playing. This was a hoax. Please accept our apologies."

"We heard about Radiohead coming here on Facebook," said Alegra Felter, a 34-year-old teacher from Brooklyn who was among the disappointed rock fans.

The protest encampment in Zuccotti Park in downtown Manhattan is festooned with placards and anti-Wall Street slogans. There is a makeshift kitchen and library, and celebrities from filmmaker Michael Moore to actress Susan Sarandon have stopped by to show solidarity.

Asked on his weekly radio show on Friday whether the protesters could stay indefinitely at the private park they call their base, Mayor Michael Bloomberg said, "We'll see."

Bloomberg added: "People have a right to protest. But we also have to make sure that people who don't want to protest can go down the street unmolested."

While the protest has been made up mostly of young people, it also has recently attracted the support of a loose coalition of labor and community organizations.

Marty Goodman, a unionized subway worker, said, "Last year we had 900 of our members laid off ... These are our issues too: Wall Street, the banks, layoffs, the struggle that these young people are spearheading is our struggle too."

Among those pledging solidarity were the United Federation of Teachers and the Transport Workers Union Local 100, which has 38,000 members. The unions could provide important organizational and financial support for the largely leaderless movement.

Similar but smaller protests have also sprouted in other cities in recent days, including Boston, Chicago and San Francisco.

(Editing by Ellen Wulfhorst, Mark Egan and Cynthia Johnston)

* * *

Marty Goodman is a member of Socialist Action, and a former Executive Board member of the Transit Workers Union Local 100. He made news in August for saving a guy's life (http://www.revleft.com/vb/socialist-subway-worker-t160022/index.html?p=2212351). - NHIA

[Nox]

I'm hoping that the police will refuse to follow orders, then the shit will get real.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Don't count on it, especially in NYC.

[Nox]

Don't count on it, especially in NYC.

Exactly, that's why I was very skeptical early on.

But it's growing fast and spreading to other cities, so there's a chance something could be made out of this.

[Lobotomy]

I'm hoping that the police will refuse to follow orders, then the shit will get real.

IIRC there is actually a small group of NYPD police officers (I think it was only 40 or something of them, but still) who have publicly vowed to not act or use violence against the protesters, but who knows.


The Occupy Wall Street movement, whose members have vowed to stay through the winter...

Who can afford to do that?

[Lobotomy]

United Steel Workers endorses Occupy Wall Street. Does this mean anything? I'm ignorant about USW.

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/09/30/3951832/usw-supports-the-occupy-wall-street.html

[Nox]

Occupy the British and Celtic Isles!

http://www.facebook.com/pages/OccupyTheBritishAndCelticIsles/216807171716339?sk=wall

[RedHal]

speaking of Radiohead, I remember reading a few years ago a talk between Howard Zinn and the lead singer. Basically Zinn argued that artists have a duty to combine art and politics, whereas the lead singer arguing that art and politics should not mix:rolleyes:

[HEAD ICE]

I'm actually not into any leftist "racket" or anything of the sort. I just find it kind of interesting how pretty much any anti-government/union/whatever action taken in the west seems to be met with instant dismissal by the majority of users here. It's either because they think that avoiding and dismissing mass action of any type that is not strictly marxist will somehow conjure militants out of the earth or they're afraid that their comfortable little theoretical niche may be disrupted by actual independent mass action. And I'm not just chastising "armchair revolutionaries", active members of leftist groups that avoid these sorts of things on puritanical grounds are just as bad. Just a bunch of smug assholes with no interest in actually linking up with the working class just as things seem to be getting interesting.

my criticisms of these demonstrations has nothing to do with me being a leftist puritan. these demonstrations simply lack a predominant working class composition, and are not the outgrowth from a class struggle. That isn't to say I dismiss the demonstrations. If the working class finds in these Wall St. "occupations" a venue to attack the system and stand up for their own interests then it would be really shortsighted for revolutionaries to not participate in it. because of that i feel it is more important to participate in struggles of the class to wherever that may go rather than trying to turn "Occupy Wall St." into a "mass movement" (which it isn't). the only "mass movement" we should care about is the movement of labor against capital and if the proletariat finds these demonstrations to be one way of expressing it then so it is. the working class will do that, not "the left."

[~Spectre]

The Police set a trap to arrest hundreds of protesters on the Brooklyn Bridge:


Updated, 6:12 p.m. | In a tense showdown above the East River, the police arrested several hundred demonstrators from the Occupy Wall Street protests who took to the roadway as they tried to cross the Brooklyn Bridge on Saturday afternoon.


many protesters said that they thought the police had tricked and trapped them, allowing them onto the bridge and even escorting them across, only to surround them in orange netting after hundreds of them had entered.

“The cops watched and did nothing, indeed, seemed to guide us on to the roadway,” said Jesse A. Myerson, a media coordinator for Occupy Wall Street who was in the march but was not arrested.

Things came to a head shortly after 4 p.m., as the 1,500 or so marchers reached the foot of the Brooklyn-bound car lanes of the bridge, just east of City Hall. In their march north from an encampment at Zuccotti Park in lower Manhattan, they had stayed on the sidewalks – forming a long column of humanity penned in by officers on scooters.


There were no physical barriers, though, and at one point, the marchers began walking up the roadway with the police commanders in front of them – seeming, from a distance, as if they were leading the way. The Chief of Department Joseph J. Esposito, and a horde or other white-shirted commanders, was among them.

After allowing the protestors to walk about a third of the way to Brooklyn, the police then cut the marchers off and surrounded them with orange nets on both sides, trapping hundreds of people, said Mr. Dunn.


Officers plunged into the crowd – with protesters at times chanting “white shirts, white shirts” — and, one by one, they made the arrests, using plastic flex cuffs. A freelance reporter for The Times, Natasha Lennard, was among those arrested. Charges against those arrested were not immediately available.

Earlier in the afternoon, as many as 10 Department of Correction buses, big enough to hold 20 prisoners apiece, had been dispatched from Rikers Island in what one law enforcement official said was “a planned move on the protesters.”


http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/01/police-arresting-protesters-on-brooklyn-bridge/?hp

[DaringMehring]

my criticisms of these demonstrations has nothing to do with me being a leftist puritan. these demonstrations simply lack a predominant working class composition, and are not the outgrowth from a class struggle. That isn't to say I dismiss the demonstrations. If the working class finds in these Wall St. "occupations" a venue to attack the system and stand up for their own interests then it would be really shortsighted for revolutionaries to not participate in it. because of that i feel it is more important to participate in struggles of the class to wherever that may go rather than trying to turn "Occupy Wall St." into a "mass movement" (which it isn't). the only "mass movement" we should care about is the movement of labor against capital and if the proletariat finds these demonstrations to be one way of expressing it then so it is. the working class will do that, not "the left."

You are dead wrong that these demonstrations "are not an outgrowth from the class struggle."

These protesters are petit-bourgeoisie in the main, to be sure, but many are frustrated petit-bourgeoisie who have not got the job and life they thought they would -- downwardly mobile thanks to capitalism's terminal illness. Forcibly "proletarianized" petit-bourgeois youths, who went to college then get no job or a minimum wage job, are an unstable factor (they're the first from the lower classes to benefit in an economic turnaround), but do reflect the class struggle, and because of the anger at their unmet expectations, an enemy of the capitalists and friend of the workers.

Just look at the slogans -- 99% vs. 1%, down with Wall St., we want "real democracy" -- they're not socialist, they don't talk about capitalist and proletarian, but they are to some degree class conscious and reflect a groping toward a coherent ideology.

When my city rolls around, I'll be joining in as much as I can. I'll talk about socialism and anti-capitalism, but I won't dismiss people just because they're not fully class conscious and don't come round to socialist viewpoint right away. I think, it would be ultra-left to dismiss these events altogether, and opportunist to participate without expressing a socialist perspective.

[Die Neue Zeit]

You are dead wrong that these demonstrations "are not an outgrowth from the class struggle."

These protesters are petit-bourgeoisie in the main, to be sure, but many are frustrated petit-bourgeoisie who have not got the job and life they thought they would -- downwardly mobile thanks to capitalism's terminal illness. Forcibly "proletarianized" petit-bourgeois youths, who went to college then get no job or a minimum wage job, are an unstable factor (they're the first from the lower classes to benefit in an economic turnaround), but do reflect the class struggle, and because of the anger at their unmet expectations, an enemy of the capitalists and friend of the workers.

Just look at the slogans -- 99% vs. 1%, down with Wall St., we want "real democracy" -- they're not socialist, they don't talk about capitalist and proletarian, but they are to some degree class conscious and reflect a groping toward a coherent ideology.

When my city rolls around, I'll be joining in as much as I can. I'll talk about socialism and anti-capitalism, but I won't dismiss people just because they're not fully class conscious and don't come round to socialist viewpoint right away. I think, it would be ultra-left to dismiss these events altogether, and opportunist to participate without expressing a socialist perspective.

I think the term you're looking for is political struggle. Since every genuine class struggle is political and not economic (i.e., arising from mere labour disputes), these occupation campaigns are commendably political. :)

[Matty_UK]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8794169/Protesters-plan-to-occupy-London-Stock-Exchange.html



Protesters plan to occupy London Stock Exchange

A group of protesters are organising an occupation of the London Stock Exchange to bring attention to what they see as unethical behaviour on the part of banks, following a similar demonstration on Wall Street.


By Matthew Sparkes (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/matthew-sparkes/)
2:43PM BST 28 Sep 2011


n a Facebook group called Occupy the London Stock Exchange (http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=255151111189948) organisers call on crowds to march on the exchange's headquarters at Paternoster Square and fortify it with tents and barricades "for a few months".
"Beginning on October 15, we want to see at least over 20,000 people flood in, set up tents, kitchens, peaceful barricades and occupy the London Stock Exchange for a few months. Once there, we shall incessantly repeat one simple demand in a plurality of voices," reads the description of the protest on Facebook.

According to the group the protest will begin on Saturday October 15 and run until 11am on December 12.

The event currently has 225 confirmed attendees, with a further 121 tentative yes's, despite the site failing to list any aims or objectives for the event, or exactly what is being protested.

The event takes its cue from a similar protest on Wall Street in New York, first proposed by Adbusters magazine, which began on September 17 with around 1,000 protesters. That protest is still going on, with more than 80 arrests taking place on September 24 alone.



One of the organisers of the protest, James Alexander Fancourt, said the protests were focused against "increasing social and economic injustice in this country".
"Since the financial crisis the Government has made sure to maintain the status quo and let the people who caused this crisis get off scot-free, whilst conversely ensuring that the people of this country pay the price, in particular those most vulnerable," he said.
"What we have in common is that we are the other 99pc, that we want People over Profit, that we are making our voices heard against greed and corruption and for a democratic and just society. And we are doing that in a non-violent and peaceful way."
Because Paternoster Square is private property the group are considering other nearby areas where they can stage a long-term presence, but denied that they were trying to stop the exchange from operating "as this would cause more harm than good".
"Rather than make the situation worse we wish to highlight the injustices and bring important issues to light."

[Threetune]

These demands are, of course, absurd. Because protests and leftist theatre don't cause revolution, thats why these things are silly if you view them in the light of revolution or whatever, what they are, is exactly what I called them, political theatre. And if its just theatre why not be as absurd as you want?


Is what you said.

[Threetune]

my criticisms of these demonstrations has nothing to do with me being a leftist puritan. these demonstrations simply lack a predominant working class composition, and are not the outgrowth from a class struggle. That isn't to say I dismiss the demonstrations. If the working class finds in these Wall St. "occupations" a venue to attack the system and stand up for their own interests then it would be really shortsighted for revolutionaries to not participate in it. because of that i feel it is more important to participate in struggles of the class to wherever that may go rather than trying to turn "Occupy Wall St." into a "mass movement" (which it isn't). the only "mass movement" we should care about is the movement of labor against capital and if the proletariat finds these demonstrations to be one way of expressing it then so it is. the working class will do that, not "the left."


Do you mean “the only "mass movement" we should care about is the movement of labor to abolish capital", rather than just being against it?

[The Douche]

I did list some simple demands?

[Threetune]

You are dead wrong that these demonstrations "are not an outgrowth from the class struggle."

These protesters are petit-bourgeoisie in the main, to be sure, but many are frustrated petit-bourgeoisie who have not got the job and life they thought they would -- downwardly mobile thanks to capitalism's terminal illness. Forcibly "proletarianized" petit-bourgeois youths, who went to college then get no job or a minimum wage job, are an unstable factor (they're the first from the lower classes to benefit in an economic turnaround), but do reflect the class struggle, and because of the anger at their unmet expectations, an enemy of the capitalists and friend of the workers.

Just look at the slogans -- 99% vs. 1%, down with Wall St., we want "real democracy" -- they're not socialist, they don't talk about capitalist and proletarian, but they are to some degree class conscious and reflect a groping toward a coherent ideology.

When my city rolls around, I'll be joining in as much as I can. I'll talk about socialism and anti-capitalism, but I won't dismiss people just because they're not fully class conscious and don't come round to socialist viewpoint right away. I think, it would be ultra-left to dismiss these events altogether, and opportunist to participate without expressing a socialist perspective.

Why is everyone avoiding saying what they would in fact actualy actually say on these demos. Does the “socialist perspective” you speak of include the talking about the dictatorship of the working class over capitalism, and what would you say to any workers who turn up and want to agitate for such a revolutionary understanding.

[Ele'ill]

The portland consensus (a laughable excuse for a consensus, steered by an invisible committee) seems to scream (judging by the general assemblies and their facebook/website) 'we don't want a revolution because they're violent'. They also advocated (and will likely actually do it) sending a letter to the police union for police support of the occupation. Before the assembly two uniformed officers came into the assembly area and everyone got real warm and friendly with them. The one officer has a list of violent offenses against them and I believe he is the officer who shot that female (a minor as well) with a beanbag (from a shotgun) at near point blank range.


Edit- Oh my god. That shit actually happened in Chicago?

[DaringMehring]

Why is everyone avoiding saying what they would in fact actualy actually say on these demos. Does the “socialist perspective” you speak of include the talking about the dictatorship of the working class over capitalism, and what would you say to any workers who turn up and want to agitate for such a revolutionary understanding.

I've got my socialist rap down pretty well.

What I say depends on what the subject is.

For example, if they talk about corruption, I try to ask whether you could expect anything else other than corruption in our system. Corruption is not some anomalous thing that has gripped us but can be solved; corruption is inevitable in the profit system because money is the highest power and making it is the highest need.

If they talk about corporatocracy, I ask whether there is any capitalism without corporatocracy. Natural tendency of capitalism is to accumulate -- profits are reinvested, corporations merge. Corporations get bigger and more powerful. I'll also challenge, whether getting rid of the biggest corporations would do any good, or just be a present to the next biggest corporations, who would be as bad anyway.

I could go on but you get the point. I don't come in preaching the dictatorship of the proletariat out of the blue. I try to respond to where they're at and get them to think about it. The truth is on our side and we don't need to sermonize people. Just help them think and they'll figure it out.

And if some worker came in arguing for working class rule (one in a million chance given where I live) yeah I'd back them up.

[Catmatic Leftist]

Wait, it's going on in Chicago? Fuck, I must be oblivious to my surroundings.

Damn, I gotta hurry up on reading the basic theoretical texts and smoothing out my politics and joining an organization.

Oh well, it's not like anything is on halt because I'm not there...

[thriller]

first, this is a misunderstanding on how class struggle works. it has nothing to do with you and all the leftist wingnuts putting up a show. it never had, the mangificent orgies of violence against the ruling classes, the state, and property are almost always unexpected, when "weeks happen in days". i am not against the wall street protests but i am not going to endorse them uncritically and shut my brain down simply because some activisty motherfuckers on the internet go by the dictum of "the more i do the better i am" and get offended because someone dared to be skeptical. if you want me to toot your horne because you took some shitty mace point blank congrats, however your martyrizing impulse is not that spectacular. the truth is that the occupy wallstreet event, while not negative, is a spectacle put up by the activist ghetto, and it was organized by word in the internet through moonbat websites and blogs. sitting on my ass and posting this on the internet is about as productive as that. when real organic skirmishes against capital happen, i bet my ass that half of those people would be denouncing it and scared by it. (refer to the liberal left and their treatment on the london riots)

I understand the fact that it was organized by many liberals and not many revolutionaries. But I disagree with the fact that it isn't about me or you. I am a member of the working class, and therefore, with the collective forces of every one of my fellow workers, have the power to change it all. I guess it just depends on how we do it.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I've got my socialist rap down pretty well.

What I say depends on what the subject is.

For example, if they talk about corruption, I try to ask whether you could expect anything else other than corruption in our system. Corruption is not some anomalous thing that has gripped us but can be solved; corruption is inevitable in the profit system because money is the highest power and making it is the highest need.

If they talk about corporatocracy, I ask whether there is any capitalism without corporatocracy. Natural tendency of capitalism is to accumulate -- profits are reinvested, corporations merge. Corporations get bigger and more powerful. I'll also challenge, whether getting rid of the biggest corporations would do any good, or just be a present to the next biggest corporations, who would be as bad anyway.

I could go on but you get the point. I don't come in preaching the dictatorship of the proletariat out of the blue. I try to respond to where they're at and get them to think about it. The truth is on our side and we don't need to sermonize people. Just help them think and they'll figure it out.

And if some worker came in arguing for working class rule (one in a million chance given where I live) yeah I'd back them up.

And this folks, is the role of militants. Not preaching, not recruiting. This.

"The masses must have time and opportunity to develop, and they can have the opportunity only when they have a movement of their own-—no matter in what form so long as it is their movement—in which they are driven further by their mistakes and learn to profit by them… What the Germans [most American Marxists until as late as the 1930s were of German or Russian origin] ought to do is to act up to their own theory—if they understand it, as we did in 1845 and 1848—to go in for any real general working class movement, accept its actual starting point as such, and work it gradually up to the theoretical level by pointing out how every mistake made, every reverse suffered, was a necessary consequence of mistaken theoretical views in the original programme." - Engels

"The point of view of the minority is dogmatic instead of critical, idealistic instead of materialistic. They regard not the real conditions but a mere effort of will as the driving force of the revolution. Whereas we say to the workers: ‘You will have to go through 15, 20, 50 years of civil wars and national struggles not only to bring about a change in society but also to change yourselves, and prepare yourselves for the exercise of political power’, you say on the contrary: ‘Either we seize power at once, or else we might as well just take to our beds.’ Whereas we are at pains to show the German workers in particular how rudimentary the development of the German proletariat is, you appeal to the patriotic feelings and the class prejudice of the German artisans, flattering them in the grossest way possible, and this is a more popular method, of course. Just as the word ‘people’ has been given an aura of sanctity by the democrats, so you have done the same for the word ‘proletariat’. Like the democrats you substitute the catchword of revolution for revolutionary development." - Marx

[Tinoire]

Happens everyday true but yesterday was the largest arrest at a protest in US history. Over 800 in one day.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

"Another voice on Sunday belonged to Jackie Fellner, a 32-year-old marketing manager from Westchester County.

'We're not here to take down Wall Street. It's not poor against rich. It's about big money dictating which politicians get elected and what programs get funded,' she said."

- http://news.yahoo.com/wall-street-protesters-were-long-haul-180515533.html

[Comrade]

There is a major difference between the other major revolts around the world at this time and this wall street business. We aren't willing to do anything but walk around with signs, they are willing to fight.

[thriller]

There is a major difference between the other major revolts around the world at this time and this wall street business. We aren't willing to do anything but walk around with signs, they are willing to fight.

Yeah, Americans need to learn how to fight back.

[KurtFF8]

There is a major difference between the other major revolts around the world at this time and this wall street business. We aren't willing to do anything but walk around with signs, they are willing to fight.

How does the fact that hundreds of people just got arrested by the NYPD and then continued to be involved play into this claim though?


Yeah, Americans need to learn how to fight back.

You clearly don't know much about the American police force and protests here

[Martin Blank]

"The masses must have time and opportunity to develop, and they can have the opportunity only when they have a movement of their own-—no matter in what form so long as it is their movement—in which they are driven further by their mistakes and learn to profit by them… What the Germans [most American Marxists until as late as the 1930s were of German or Russian origin] ought to do is to act up to their own theory—if they understand it, as we did in 1845 and 1848—to go in for any real general working class movement, accept its actual starting point as such, and work it gradually up to the theoretical level by pointing out how every mistake made, every reverse suffered, was a necessary consequence of mistaken theoretical views in the original programme." - Engels

"The point of view of the minority is dogmatic instead of critical, idealistic instead of materialistic. They regard not the real conditions but a mere effort of will as the driving force of the revolution. Whereas we say to the workers: ‘You will have to go through 15, 20, 50 years of civil wars and national struggles not only to bring about a change in society but also to change yourselves, and prepare yourselves for the exercise of political power’, you say on the contrary: ‘Either we seize power at once, or else we might as well just take to our beds.’ Whereas we are at pains to show the German workers in particular how rudimentary the development of the German proletariat is, you appeal to the patriotic feelings and the class prejudice of the German artisans, flattering them in the grossest way possible, and this is a more popular method, of course. Just as the word ‘people’ has been given an aura of sanctity by the democrats, so you have done the same for the word ‘proletariat’. Like the democrats you substitute the catchword of revolution for revolutionary development." - Marx

Be careful, comrade. The Trotskyists (and their "Left" hanger-on) might start in about "combined and uneven development" again! :lol::lol::lol:

[¿Que?]

Sorry, haven't been reading this thread too close. I just wanted to add my two cents about the Occupy in my area.

Whoever said shitty politics (RED DAVE, S. Artesian, can't remember) is correct. Lot's of ROn Paul crap. Lot's of "interface with the police" bullshit, and lot's of other shit. This just going to their FB page. I'm checking out the GA tomorrow, we'll see how that goes.

[Smyg]

You clearly don't know much about the American police force and protests here

Last time I checked, the police repression was worse outside of America and Europe. :rolleyes:

[Fawkes]

There is a major difference between the other major revolts around the world at this time and this wall street business. We aren't willing to do anything but walk around with signs, they are willing to fight.

If the conviction is there, the fight is there. People don't randomly attack cops out of mindless aggression, they fight back in self-defense. The police are becoming increasingly more aggressive, and from what I can tell, people seem to be more and more empowered by the recent events. In other words, as the convictions of the protestors grows and the aggression of the police increases, protestors will become more willing to fight back. The job of revolutionaries now is to do everything in our power to spread class consciousness among those at wall street, thereby increasing the militancy of this movement. We need to talk with and encourage other workers to take part in it, including homeless/unemployed people. If we take the Stonewall Riots as an example, trans individuals and homeless teen hustlers were the most militant as they were the most marginalized. Of course, those were different circumstances, but someone with a nice suburban home back in Virginia is far less likely to stick around when shit starts getting heavy than the people who have nothing to go back to but a drug- and gun-ridden Brownsville housing project.

[Fawkes]

Here's something I posted in this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/whats-happening-new-t162009/index.html?p=2248979) about Saturday.


So I just got back to my apartment now after spending the last 5 hours at the 75th precinct. I had work today, so I missed the actual Brooklyn Bridge takeover, but here's a summary of what happened based off of my own observations and conversations with others:

- A few thousand people left from "Liberty Plaza" to march across the Bridge to Brooklyn Bridge Park to meet up with another demonstration that was happening there.

- The initial plan was to have people march across the walkway part of the bridge, and while many did, a large number of people (over a thousand) began walking through the Brooklyn-bound highway part of the bridge, completely stopping traffic flow.

- Police were actively encouraging protestors to walk on the road as opposed to the sidewalk, going so far as to direct them that way.

- After the main mass of people took over the highway, police coming from the Brooklyn side halted the march and began arresting people. (I heard one person claim that pepper spray was used against those on the front line, though I haven't been able to confirm this).

- As the police closed in from the Brooklyn side, a fence was set up on the Manhattan side, effectively trapping thousands of people on the bridge.

- Police began closing in on both sides, arresting upwards of a thousand people as they worked their way toward the middle. They even commandeered MTA city buses to transport the unprecedented number of people arrested. Among the people arrested were a number of photojournalists and a New York Times reporter.

- There were numerous reports of people being dragged on the pavement by the police, and even one report of sexual assault against a female demonstrator.

- Some people on the roadway, in an attempt to escape the police, actually tried climbing up onto the central walkway, an incredibly dangerous act given that a single slip could mean falling into the East River and almost certainly dying.

- Police were actively practicing gendered discrimination in their arrests, in what is most likely theorized to have been an attempt at breaking up couples. There were times when all of the women in a given area were told they were free to go while the men were arrested and vice-versa.

- Police began transporting the arrested demonstrators to a number of different precincts in both Brooklyn and Manhattan, the last confirmed number I heard being eight different precincts -- including 80 or so individuals taken to the 75th Precinct in East New York, a neighborhood 40 minutes away from the bridge and notorious for being the most dangerous neighborhood in Brooklyn.

- A large number of people reconvened at Liberty Plaza where a General Assembly was held encircling the media tent so as to prevent any attempts by the police to confiscate equipment. During the GA, it was announced that the S.E.I.U. Hospital Workers Union had officially declared solidarity with the movement and pledged a weeks worth of food for the encampment and the assistance of as many Registered Nurses as feasible to train protestors in medical aid. Additionally, the Transit Workers Union and United Steel Workers also pledged their full support.

- Immediately following the GA, jail support groups were set up for each of the precincts the demonstrators were taken to. In cooperation with the National Lawyers' Guild, demonstrators travelled to each of the precincts to offer legal/moral support and maintain a presence. I was a part of the group that went to the 75th Precinct in East New York where we waited 3 1/2 hours before they slowly began releasing the demonstrators, the majority of whom received citations for obstruction of traffic and were given mandatory court dates.

- The protestors that were taken to the 75th Precinct repeatedly asked the officers at the station if they could use the bathrooms, but these requests were consistently denied until the initial procedures were through and people were moved to holding cells. At least one woman actually peed her pants as a result of this. Further, upon release, I saw at least one demonstrator having NLG reps take pictures of her wrists which had blood-red lines from ziptie handcuffs. It should be noted, however, that once these initial procedures were through, the majority of those detained at the 75th Precinct described uncharacteristically nice treatment by the police.



This seems like it's really going beyond the lame liberal fest we all predicted it would be. With the support of some pretty major unions and the relatively massive turnout, this thing really has potential. This is not just a rich suburban white kid's protest. There were people of all skin colors, ages (mid-teens to 60s), and genders (everyone from bearded, muscle-shirt-wearing guys to trans people). Yes, it still lacks the necessary class-consciousness and the majority of people still seem to hold the "police are part of the '99%' too" view, but it is definitely moving in a good direction. For example, when I was in East New York (one of the most impoverished and violent neighborhoods in the whole city), all of the people in the police station (literally all of them) waiting for friends/relatives arrested for non-protest-related crimes expressed vocal support for what was going on. I actually got butterflies hearing such solidarity from members of one of the most oppressed communities in the city. Also, when I went to the bodega down the street to get something to drink, I started talking with two teenagers who had just left the precinct with their mom who then proceeded to show me the bruises on one of their arms and neck from the police. I don't think I'm being overly optimistic by saying that this shit's got some real potential.

This Wednesday, there is a planned walkout of all CUNY/SUNY schools to protest the tuition hikes which will merge with a labor march downtown with support from Occupy Wall Street. Similarly, many of the protestors on the bridge today had come directly from the SlutWalk march.

[Gorra Negra]

Sorry, haven't been reading this thread too close. I just wanted to add my two cents about the Occupy in my area.

Whoever said shitty politics (RED DAVE, S. Artesian, can't remember) is correct. Lot's of ROn Paul crap. Lot's of "interface with the police" bullshit, and lot's of other shit. This just going to their FB page. I'm checking out the GA tomorrow, we'll see how that goes.

oh yes. there's a LOT of that. a lot of 9-11 insider weirdos and ron paul groupees.

[S.Artesian]

Be careful, comrade. The Trotskyists (and their "Left" hanger-on) might start in about "combined and uneven development" again! :lol::lol::lol:

EDIT: 1. The above is clearly off-topic, and trolling.


2. In response to the trolling: Not in this thread. There's a separate thread for that in which you were exposed as the ignorant poser that you are.

[thriller]

You clearly don't know much about the American police force and protests here

Ohh I beg to differ. Both my parents got gassed back in the 60's at Bascom Hill and were arrested for being in the vicinity. Yet they still feel fighting back in self-defense is wrong. So, anecdotally, Americans still refuse to fight back for unknown reasons.

[S.Artesian]

Sorry, haven't been reading this thread too close. I just wanted to add my two cents about the Occupy in my area.

Whoever said shitty politics (RED DAVE, S. Artesian, can't remember) is correct. Lot's of ROn Paul crap. Lot's of "interface with the police" bullshit, and lot's of other shit. This just going to their FB page. I'm checking out the GA tomorrow, we'll see how that goes.


Yes, there's a lot of that, but you know what? There was a lot of shitty politics at the Democratic Convention in Chicago in August 68. I remember the various "official" Trotskyist groups discounting the proposed demonstrations and demonstrators as "anarchists" "hippies" and "McCarthy kids."

"Yeah, yeah, yeah and so what?" was the response of SDS. "Doesn't mean it isn't important to be there." SDS was right, of course. Difference maybe that nobody, at least in my section of SDS, expected the Chicago police to act any differently than they did.

Of course, the media made the police the BIG issue; but it was the war that was the issue. The task is to elucidate the real issues, and keep them in the forefront-- trying to move the demonstration from advocating "occupying Wall Street" to advocating abolishing Wall Street.

[Threetune]

And this folks, is the role of militants. Not preaching, not recruiting. This.

"The masses must have time and opportunity to develop, and they can have the opportunity only when they have a movement of their own-—no matter in what form so long as it is their movement—in which they are driven further by their mistakes and learn to profit by them… What the Germans [most American Marxists until as late as the 1930s were of German or Russian origin] ought to do is to act up to their own theory—if they understand it, as we did in 1845 and 1848—to go in for any real general working class movement, accept its actual starting point as such, and work it gradually up to the theoretical level by pointing out how every mistake made, every reverse suffered, was a necessary consequence of mistaken theoretical views in the original programme." - Engels

"The point of view of the minority is dogmatic instead of critical, idealistic instead of materialistic. They regard not the real conditions but a mere effort of will as the driving force of the revolution. Whereas we say to the workers: ‘You will have to go through 15, 20, 50 years of civil wars and national struggles not only to bring about a change in society but also to change yourselves, and prepare yourselves for the exercise of political power’, you say on the contrary: ‘Either we seize power at once, or else we might as well just take to our beds.’ Whereas we are at pains to show the German workers in particular how rudimentary the development of the German proletariat is, you appeal to the patriotic feelings and the class prejudice of the German artisans, flattering them in the grossest way possible, and this is a more popular method, of course. Just as the word ‘people’ has been given an aura of sanctity by the democrats, so you have done the same for the word ‘proletariat’. Like the democrats you substitute the catchword of revolution for revolutionary development." - Marx

And this folks, is the role of revolutionaries. Not preaching, not recruiting,
not telling only half of the truth with very selective quotes about a shower of complete toss pots.


But this as well.

“The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions.
Let the ruling classes tremble at a communist revolution.
The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.
Working Men of All Countries, Unite!” Marx.

“And now as to myself, no credit is due to me for discovering the existence of classes in modern society or the struggle between them. Long before me bourgeois historians had described the historical development of this class struggle and bourgeois economists, the economic anatomy of classes. What I did that was new was to prove:
(1) that the existence of classes is only bound up with the particular, historical phases in the development of production,
(2) that the class struggle necessarily leads to the dictatorship of the proletariat,
(3) that this dictatorship itself only constitutes the transition to the abolition of all classes and to a classless society.” Marx

[RED DAVE]

The task is to elucidate the real issues, and keep them in the forefront-- trying to move the demonstration from advocating "occupying Wall Street" to advocating abolishing Wall Street.This is the point. On another thread, a comrade suggested that there are no important precedents to this action.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2250030&postcount=255

Truth is, from Madison back to whenever, there are precedents to learn from. That's a role of the Left: to be the memory of the revolution.

We are seeing a movement that is still confined, at least in NYC, to the petit-bourgeoisie, at least with regard to activists. But, unlike the 60s, we also have a period of mass working class discontent. The taks of revolutionaries is to fight to bring these two elements together.

RED DAVE

[agnixie]

There is a major difference between the other major revolts around the world at this time and this wall street business. We aren't willing to do anything but walk around with signs, they are willing to fight.

We're building forces, first.

[RED DAVE]

There is a major difference between the other major revolts around the world at this time and this wall street business. We aren't willing to do anything but walk around with signs, they are willing to fightJust what did you have in mind? Armed struggle in the Appalachians?

RED DAVE

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Yeah, Americans need to learn how to fight back.

Here's another place where a class analysis is needed. "Americans" as a group are divided into classes, with different interests and what follows from that. Even among the workers there are different histories and traditions.

I know of plenty of picket lines (especially in coal fields 'cause of my family worked/works in them) that involved real fight backs against cops. None of the folks I know or grew up around would say it's "wrong" to fight back against police attacks.

Then there are the riots, which have been numerous in this country, and often sparked by police repression.

Recently? How's this for a fight back?
(http://www.revleft.com/vb/ilwu-longshoremen-storm-t160931/index.html?t=160931)
So yeah, people have fought back, people do fight back, people will fight back. But it depends on the people. I wouldn't expect Michael Moore or Tom Hayden to throw blows for example.

[Ele'ill]

As was mentioned in one of the god damned wallstreet threads (I don't even know which thread I'm in right now- i've lost track) it is perhaps the time for radicals to start agitating and more importantly encouraging those in the streets, to think about the next stepping stone that may give them a little bit more leverage than the one they're currently on. Let them go through this whole process- this is the first time a lot of these folks have done anything like this at all. Yes, it's painful to watch at times but they'll learn- there is no other end- they have to.

[Fawkes]

Here's another place where a class analysis is needed. "Americans" as a group are divided into classes, with different interests and what follows from that. Even among the workers there are different histories and traditions.

I know of plenty of picket lines (especially in coal fields 'cause of my family worked/works in them) that involved real fight backs against cops. None of the folks I know or grew up around would say it's "wrong" to fight back against police attacks.

Then there are the riots, which have been numerous in this country, and often sparked by police repression.

Recently? How's this for a fight back?
(http://www.revleft.com/vb/ilwu-longshoremen-storm-t160931/index.html?t=160931)
So yeah, people have fought back, people do fight back, people will fight back. But it depends on the people. I wouldn't expect Michael Moore or Tom Hayden to throw blows for example.
this

Ask anyone in my neighborhood if they would be willing to violently fight back against the police and the answer would most likely be yes. What is lacking in the U.S. as opposed to many other countries is organization, specifically along class lines. There's a lot of dissatisfaction, tension, and willingness to fight back, it's just a matter of organizing and turning these widespread sentiments into something productive.

I'm gonna be all douchey right now and use some prophetic metaphor, but right now it's as if there is a huge field and tons of seeds, we just need to plant and maintain them. (when did I become such a douche?)

[Threetune]

Without endorsing all the details of this particular report, the event does have some lessons about movements that start as one thing and turn into another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1905)

Bloody Sunday incident</SPAN>

Father Gapon organized the Assembly of Russian Factory and Mill Workers of St. Petersburg, which was patronized by the Department of the Police and the St. Petersburg Okhrana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okhrana) (secret police (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_police)). The Assembly's objectives were to defend workers' rights and to elevate their moral and religious status. Only persons of Russian Orthodox denomination were eligible to join its ranks. Soon the organization had twelve branches and 8,000 members, and Gapon tried to expand activities to Kiev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev) and Moscow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow). Gapon was not simply an obedient instrument of the police; cooperating with them, he tried to realize his own plans.
From the end of 1904, Gapon started to cooperate with radicals, who had championed the abolition of the Tsar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_II)'s autocracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocracy).
On January 22 [O.S. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Style_and_New_Style_dates) January 9] 1905, the day after the general strike burst out in St. Petersburg, Gapon organized a workers' procession to present a petition to the Czar, which ended tragically (Bloody Sunday 1905 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_1905)).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Gapon#cite_note-marx-1) Gapon's life was saved by Pinchas Rutenberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinchas_Rutenberg), who took Gapon away from gun fire.
Following the Bloody Sunday, Gapon anathematized the Tsar and called upon the workers to take action against the regime, but soon after escaped abroad, where he had close ties with the Socialist-Revolutionary Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist-Revolutionary_Party). Gapon and Rutenberg fled abroad, being welcomed in Europe both by prominent Russian emigrants Georgy Plekhanov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Plekhanov), Vladimir Lenin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin), Pyotr Kropotkin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Kropotkin), and French socialist leaders Jean Jaurès (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Jaur%C3%A8s) and Georges Clemenceau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Clemenceau). He found sanctuary in Geneva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Gapon#cite_note-2) and in London at 33 Dunstan House, Stepney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepney), with anarchists Peter Kropotkin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Kropotkin) and Rudolf Rocker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Rocker). After the October Manifesto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Manifesto), before the end of 1905, Gapon returned to Russia and resumed contact with the Okhrana.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Make up & opinions of "Occupy Wall Street" participants released (http://www.revleft.com/vb/make-up-opinions-t162070/index.html)

[S.Artesian]

Make up & opinions of "Occupy Wall Street" participants released (http://www.revleft.com/vb/make-up-opinions-t162070/index.html)


Better than I thought it would be.

[Aleenik]

Lol look at what I found on Fox Nation. They are calling the protests anti-capitalist when clearly the protest are made up of capitalist and anti-capitalist. Some of the comments are pretty interesting too.

http://nation.foxnews.com/wall-street-protests/2011/10/03/anti-capitalist-protests-spread-across-america

[Lobotomy]

from the link above:


These Kids are being used by Obama and the Progressive's. Stalin called Students " Useful I d i o t s ! ".


Good little socialist liberals doing what they do best. Products of our wonderful liberal trash education system with the oh so great liberal teachers unions. About what you'd expect.


THE FACT THAT THE OBAMA REGIME HAS NOT SAID ANYTHING ABOUT MASS DEMONSTRATIONS BEING HELD ON HIS WATCH,,,TELLS ME THAT HE ENDORSES THEIR AGENDA AND IS PROBABLY BEHIND THEM / There is no doubt. The sonofabytch loves every minute of it. He grew up with it while reading marx and lenin. It's his way.

fucking lol

[Catmatic Leftist]

Reading those comments made me lose faith in humanity.

[heyjoe]

your faith in humanity depended on comments made on Fox Nation? you need to get out more. I would be shocked if there was anything less than repressive on that whole site at all. The belly of the beast.

[Catmatic Leftist]

your faith in humanity depended on comments made on Fox Nation? you need to get out more. I would be shocked if there was anything less than repressive on that whole site at all. The belly of the beast.

...The comment wasn't entirely serious, but yeah...

[bcbm]

Reading those comments made me lose faith in humanity.

it took you until now?

[Catmatic Leftist]

lol it seems people took that seriously;

fine. They made me die a little inside.

Is that less hyperbolic enough for y'all?

[Tablo]

The comments are quite lolz worthy. I love how the article labels the protests all as anti-capitalists. :lol:

[KurtFF8]

Back to the "fighting back" question.

Yes in a broad context of oppressed communities rioting or a massive picket line (of thousands) being repressed, a "fight back" can perhaps work.

But in a case like where about 700 folks are trapped and enclosed on a bridge and being arrested while being peaceful: is "fighting back" a real option or an attempt to just try to sound more revolutionary on a message board?

[RED DAVE]

Back to the "fighting back" question.

Yes in a broad context of oppressed communities rioting or a massive picket line (of thousands) being repressed, a "fight back" can perhaps work.

But in a case like where about 700 folks are trapped and enclosed on a bridge and being arrested while being peaceful: is "fighting back" a real option or an attempt to just try to sound more revolutionary on a message board?It would be bullshit. The cops would kick the living shit out of people; people would be in the hospital; and legal fees could tie up a movement for years.

RED DAVE

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I guess. But on the other hand, there are definitely times and places where it would be impossible for 100 police to arrest 700 people without incident.

[KurtFF8]

Saturday was clearly not one of those times or places (Thus I see comments of "why not fight back!" as very inappropriate and coming from a misunderstanding of situations like that)

[S.Artesian]

I guess. But on the other hand, there are definitely times and places where it would be impossible for 100 police to arrest 700 people without incident.

Yeah, but when you're kettled on a bridge, with no way off, it's imperative that-- if you're going to fight your way off the bridge, all 700 are organized to fight... takes a level of struggle more advanced than the current level; and it takes a level of organization way more than the current level, and type of organization.

You've got to have someplace for the people to go, safely, where they can't be picked up individually, or kettled again collectively; you need to get people out of the city and back home who may have been photographed; you need to be able to hide others; and you need to be able to bring in a whole new group of support to protect the project of the demonstration/occupation itself.


Being trapped on the BB with none of that preparation makes it a gross tactical blunder to attempt to fight your way off.

[Ele'ill]

Saturday was clearly not one of those times or places (Thus I see comments of "why not fight back!" as very inappropriate and coming from a misunderstanding of situations like that)

I think the 'why not fight back' scenario would be devoid of bridges and other physical locations that lack an escape route. Thus, the first critique is of where they're marching and the space they're occupying. It's also a critique of who their occupation is affecting. People trying to get to work, the general public? Or was it wallstreet?

The general feel from the occupations elsewhere is that 'occupation as a direct action in locations that offer leverage is bad'. They're solely symbolic space occupations. I understand that the situation in New York is different than these and I hope it sets the tempo here shortly because the shit I'm seeing here and hearing of elsewhere is not very promising.

[KurtFF8]

Well a little defense of the idea of marching over the bridge:

The goal was not to get arrested. This was not planned nor desired by the march. It was not an act of civil disobedience.

The idea was to march over the bridge and be in Brooklyn to interact with a neighborhood that isn't Manhattan. Obviously that part of BK is more working class than the financial district of Manhattan: so it was to interact with and spread the movement a bit.

[S.Artesian]

Well a little defense of the idea of marching over the bridge:

The goal was not to get arrested. This was not planned nor desired by the march. It was not an act of civil disobedience.

The idea was to march over the bridge and be in Brooklyn to interact with a neighborhood that isn't Manhattan. Obviously that part of BK is more working class than the financial district of Manhattan: so it was to interact with and spread the movement a bit.

That's key, and most definitely wise given the physical arrangement.

[28350]

walking across the bridge gets you to brooklyn heights.
pretty fucking well off neighborhood

[RED DAVE]

Obviously that part of BK is more working class than the financial district of Manhattan: so it was to interact with and spread the movement a bit.Unfortunately, as has been noted, the part of Brooklyn at the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge is probably the bourgiest neighborhood in Brooklyn. You have to cross the Manhattan or Williamburg bridges to reach working class neighborhoods (if you can avoid the yuppies).

RED DAVE

[S.Artesian]

walking across the bridge gets you to brooklyn heights.
pretty fucking well off neighborhood


No doubt, but the Brooklyn Bridge is the one closest to the Manhattan location of the protests. I just think the "leaders" of this have no clue as to what areas are gentrified in this city. Wouldn't surprise me to see them "reaching out" to Tribeca next.

Geez, let's cut some slack here. If you think the demands are amorphous, you're right. If you think the politics are confused, you're right. If you think this whole thing can be coopted by a few skillful maneuvers by left-Dems, etc. you're right.

But I hope nobody thinks the Brooklyn Bridge was selected because it empties into DUMBO and adjacent gentrified areas.

[Lobotomy]

I hear some protesters are trying to sue the city now... that will end well. :rolleyes:

[aty]

I hear some protesters are trying to sue the city now... that will end well. :rolleyes:
Not just protesters, the Transport Workers Union are.

[S.Artesian]

Just came from the demonstrations-- pretty big, I guess, repeat guess, 40-50,000 showed up-- politics are all over the place but that's to be expected-- good spirit, lots of workers--- nurses, teachers, doctors, professors, transport workers, teamsters... I was surprised by how many, and how angry.

[RadioRaheem84]

50,000?!

Why is this not front page news?

[Catmatic Leftist]

50,000?!

Why is this not front page news?

They hope to keep the unaware and ignorant people unaware and ignorant.

[Ele'ill]

Dont' worry about it not making the news- there are numerous cities planning occupations with unique strategies and it will all kick off soon.

[aristos]

50,000?!

Why is this not front page news?

In Egypt the state media also claimed right until the end that there were just a handful of protesters.

[x359594]

News from Occupy Los Angeles. The following is from a fellow worker with edits:

"Since Occupy LA began on Saturday, there have been some issues with transparency, collaboration with police, and the decision making process (for more info, see http://unpermittedla.wordpress.com (http://unpermittedla.wordpress.com/)). To address some of these issues, reach out to the broader community, and provide self-defense and legal training, a Committee to End Police Brutality was formed, with constant opposition since then from some liberals.

Last Monday night an individual distributed a flier accusing the committee of inciting violence against the police and included names and photos of 25 long-time Los Angeles militants and labor organizers. I'm assuming I don't need to explain how serious this is, and many of the people on the list and other friends no longer feel safe to participate in Occupy LA. The police likely have this list by now.

At tonight's General Assembly some comrades and fellow workers hope to have the chance to address these issues and propose major structural changes as being the only way to move forward. The idea is to give the GA the chance to make this right before we start attacking the legitimacy of the movement, and I'll try to update the list on what happens there."

[Ele'ill]

Something that's ssssspissing me off right now because I'm DRUNK. Hearing leftists slander the occupy movement without trying to do anything at all along with it or on their own. It's a mass mobilization for fuck's sake. Fuck your comfort levels- what are you a time traveler from post revolution? Way too smug. Yeah, it's annoying but I didn't stand in the cold wind and rain for four fucking hours last night pending a police issue consensus deadlock (that ended in hooray) to have a bunch of defeatist assholes not want to do anything. Fuck that shit- the armchair would be a monumental feat you bed confined cartoon watching losers.

.ugh drunk. What the fuck happened to the 90's

[Binh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Fcd4NAfWvw

^- That's realness right there.

[Aleenik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Fcd4NAfWvw

^- That's realness right there.How? He doesn't appear to be a Communist or an Anarchist. Just listen to his comments about working with the President. As far as the bad media coverage goes, I agree that it's bad. But that's the nature of bourgeois media.

[PhoenixAsh]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/05/buddy-roemer-occupy-wall-street_n_996963.html


... former Louisiana governor Buddy Roemer (R). If you've been following his presidential campaign -- and the media, having shut Roemer out of the debates, has made this hard! -- you'll know that this is in keeping with his unique political platform. His campaign releases the following statement:

Manchester, NH -- Republican presidential candidate Buddy Roemer released the following statement regarding the Occupy Wall Street Movement.
As I continue touring college campuses throughout New Hampshire, I am reminded of all the young Americans currently taking part in the Occupy Wall Street movement. Please know that I stand by you.
It is Main Street that creates the majority of jobs in America; it is Main Street that sends our brave young men and women to war; it is Main Street that hurts when another manufacturing plant closes only to be re-opened in China; it is Main Street that is being foreclosed on; and it is Main Street that is suffering while the greed of Wall Street continues to hurt our middle-class.
Too-big-to-fail banks have only gotten bigger thanks to government bailouts, and as president, I will end the corporate tax loopholes that un-American corporations take advantage of only to ship our jobs overseas. Fair trade not Free trade.
Money in politics has created institutional corruption. Both parties are guilty of taking the big check and are bought by Wall Street. My campaign is the only one that speaks out against this and I look forward to the day lobbyists are not allowed to donate to campaigns.
Wall Street grew to be a source of capital for growing companies. It has become something else: A facilitator for greed and for the selling of American jobs. Enough already.
Dave Weigel scoops it first and puts the $64,000 question out there: "This will be a test if anything Roemer says can get attention."

[¿Que?]

There's one where a group of homeless people have said they will build a tent village nearby, without the city's approval and without the good graces of the Occupy Everything movement. On an unrelated note, one particular city has a copwatch magnet that refuses to recognize the legitimacy of the police liaison.

Just some observations of mine.

[S.Artesian]

50,000?!

Why is this not front page news?


1. Because Steve Jobs died?

2. It's getting there: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/06/nyregion/major-unions-join-occupy-wall-street-protest.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=nyregion

[Lobotomy]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/05/buddy-roemer-occupy-wall-street_n_996963.html


... former Louisiana governor Buddy Roemer (R). If you've been following his presidential campaign -- and the media, having shut Roemer out of the debates, has made this hard! -- you'll know that this is in keeping with his unique political platform. His campaign releases the following statement:

Manchester, NH -- Republican presidential candidate Buddy Roemer released the following statement regarding the Occupy Wall Street Movement.
As I continue touring college campuses throughout New Hampshire, I am reminded of all the young Americans currently taking part in the Occupy Wall Street movement. Please know that I stand by you.
It is Main Street that creates the majority of jobs in America; it is Main Street that sends our brave young men and women to war; it is Main Street that hurts when another manufacturing plant closes only to be re-opened in China; it is Main Street that is being foreclosed on; and it is Main Street that is suffering while the greed of Wall Street continues to hurt our middle-class.
Too-big-to-fail banks have only gotten bigger thanks to government bailouts, and as president, I will end the corporate tax loopholes that un-American corporations take advantage of only to ship our jobs overseas. Fair trade not Free trade.
Money in politics has created institutional corruption. Both parties are guilty of taking the big check and are bought by Wall Street. My campaign is the only one that speaks out against this and I look forward to the day lobbyists are not allowed to donate to campaigns.
Wall Street grew to be a source of capital for growing companies. It has become something else: A facilitator for greed and for the selling of American jobs. Enough already.
Dave Weigel scoops it first and puts the $64,000 question out there: "This will be a test if anything Roemer says can get attention."

A Republican supports this...?

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100108063233/uncyclopedia/images/archive/b/b5/20100108063328!Exploding-head.gif

[Klaatu]

Does anyone at Fox News finally get it: that people really don't care if they build a mosque near "ground zero?"

People are getting screwed by capitalists, not Muslims!

[¿Que?]

And I'm wondering if something similar with what happened in Spain will happen, where, iirc the conservatives made sweeping gains after the Democracia Real Ya! thing.

Does this sound like a naive question.

[KurtFF8]

walking across the bridge gets you to brooklyn heights.
pretty fucking well off neighborhood

I'm not sure that BK heights was the end goal of the march though.

Our rout was stopped half way through turns out


I hear some protesters are trying to sue the city now... that will end well.

Indeed, it's a class action lawsuit. If folks were arrested, they should fill out the relevant form on this site http://www.justiceonline.org/


Not just protesters, the Transport Workers Union are.

Although the judge ruled against the union.


Just came from the demonstrations-- pretty big, I guess, repeat guess, 40-50,000 showed up-- politics are all over the place but that's to be expected-- good spirit, lots of workers--- nurses, teachers, doctors, professors, transport workers, teamsters... I was surprised by how many, and how angry.

Yeah it was a hell of a march.

[Aleenik]

It looks like stuff is about to go down in San Francisco.
http://www.occupysf.com/blog/19-city-of-san-francisco-notification

[Fawkes]

A group of us (myself included) attempted to overrun the barricades to one of the entrances to Wall St. today (broadway and wall st) amidst a shit ton of batons, fists, and tear gas. It was ultimately unsuccessful, though it's still a sign of the growing militancy of this movement. Further, at least one person was successfully unarrested.

[Fawkes]

Seconds after we charged the barricade:
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2011/10/06/alg_occupy-wall-street-pepper-spraying.jpg

[Threetune]

It looks like stuff is about to go down in San Francisco.
http://www.occupysf.com/blog/19-city-of-san-francisco-notification

The protesters are calling for:
Kitchen
Medical
Arts and Entertainment
Communications
Direct Action Committee
Financial
Legal
Education/Outreach/Media
Campground Logistics

But what about political theory?

Who has the best understanding of what is happening?

What are the communists saying to the people who are gathering?
What are the reformists saying?
What are the rightists saying?
What are the religious people saying?
What are the Capitalists saying?

Who has the best understanding and explanation of what is happening?

[¿Que?]

But what about political theory?
The theory is that the consensus approach will lead to creating alternative modes of democratic participation.

Who has the best understanding of what is happening?
Not sure. I doubt the mainstream press has anything worthwhile to say, though.

What are the communists saying to the people who are gathering?
Communist are saying that the movements lacks a solid grounding in working class politics. It looks like liberalism to them. Reform versus revolution.

What are the reformists saying?
It's the like the civil rights for the modern age.

What are the rightists saying?
They agree that people have the right to peaceably assemble, but they're suspicious overall.

What are the religious people saying?
Religious people were outvoted in my area when they wanted to institute s a prayer, apparently. They're skeptical. It seems to probably jibe with liberation theology though.

What are the Capitalists saying?
Depends. Ron Paulites are all over this. Ron Paul I believe would rather disavow himself of the whole thing.

Who has the best understanding and explanation of what is happening?
Marx would have.

[nguyenmuabien]

The Americans did not lose a sense of humor when participating in demonstrations, "Taking on Wall Street," with many interesting nuances expression.




A man holding newspaper The Wall Strees Occupied Journal, the demonstrators released the parody newspaper The Wall Street Journal fame.


A woman walks a tricycle, is decorated in style pink unicorns in fairy tales, when participating in demonstrations with the teachers union in New York near Wall Street yesterday.

[nguyenmuabien]

The Americans did not lose a sense of humor when participating in demonstrations, "Taking on Wall Street," with many interesting nuances expression.
A man holding newspaper The Wall Strees Occupied Journal, the demonstrators released the parody newspaper The Wall Street Journal famous
A woman walks a tricycle, is decorated in style pink unicorns in fairy tales, when participating in demonstrations with the teachers union in New York near Wall Street yesterday.

[PhoenixAsh]

A Republican supports this...?

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100108063233/uncyclopedia/images/archive/b/b5/20100108063328!Exploding-head.gif


Well...I know very little about Lousiana politics but I read up a small bit. It is kind of hard to explain what my idea is here.

I think it is not very surprising that a former Democrat turned Repulican would endorse these protests when you consider he ran for governor on a very conservative reform agenda against a three term fellow Democratic Governor by basically trying to steal conservative votes and throwing the guy under the bus by using gimmicks (slay the dragon...with that slogan he meant governor Edwards (D) ).

He found himself during his entire carreer on the wrong side of politics....and always tried to repeat his lack of poll success by using gimmicks.

So now that he has changed sides and is getting no real media attention he is doing exactly that...using a gimmick....it is kind of predictable.

Now if you consider that he is president/CEO of a bank...he is probably trying to buff out some negatives which may affect voter opinions in the current climate.

The guy is...by the way...a douche. And is part of the Faith and Freedom coalition. Anti-same sex marriage, anti-abortion & pro-life and a free market agenda.

But also limited government, anti-big bussiness, anti-corporational personhood...and help the poor ideology.

Those last few fit in nicely with the Occupy movements.

It seems Roemer is both trying to win votes on the right by having a platform which brushes up and humps the leg of the tea-party movement and at the same time is trying to gain votes on the left by voicing support for the Occupy movements.

Its pure strategy. If it works is a different matter.

[Threetune]

Thanks for that hindsight 20/20. A useful exposure of capitalist opportunism at work.

[bietan jarrai]

Well...I know very little about Lousiana politics but I read up a small bit. It is kind of hard to explain what my idea is here.

I think it is not very surprising that a former Democrat turned Repulican would endorse these protests when you consider he ran for governor on a very conservative reform agenda against a three term fellow Democratic Governor by basically trying to steal conservative votes and throwing the guy under the bus by using gimmicks (slay the dragon...with that slogan he meant governor Edwards (D) ).

He found himself during his entire carreer on the wrong side of politics....and always tried to repeat his lack of poll success by using gimmicks.

So now that he has changed sides and is getting no real media attention he is doing exactly that...using a gimmick....it is kind of predictable.

Now if you consider that he is president/CEO of a bank...he is probably trying to buff out some negatives which may affect voter opinions in the current climate.

The guy is...by the way...a douche. And is part of the Faith and Freedom coalition. Anti-same sex marriage, anti-abortion & pro-life and a free market agenda.

But also limited government, anti-big bussiness, anti-corporational personhood...and help the poor ideology.

Those last few fit in nicely with the Occupy movements.

It seems Roemer is both trying to win votes on the right by having a platform which brushes up and humps the leg of the tea-party movement and at the same time is trying to gain votes on the left by voicing support for the Occupy movements.

Its pure strategy. If it works is a different matter.


And I'm wondering if something similar with what happened in Spain will happen, where, iirc the conservatives made sweeping gains after the Democracia Real Ya! thing.

This is what you guys need to watch out for, try to steer this into a true anti-capitalist protest, so the right-wing know this isn't something they should try to stick their noses into... Or if they do so the people would be conscencialized enough to reject them.

[Who?]

Is there a sizeable communist presence at these demonstrations? I'll probably head down check it out tomorrow. I know I've seen some PSL signs floating about. I just hope that anarchist and Marxist organizations are out there agitating.

Has anyone heard any calls for university occupations in solidarity with the protesters? I mean, I know a lot of people who would like to be there but can't make it because they're, well, stuck at college.

[Bardo]

There are some communists and anarchists present at the Tampa event, but it's a really mixed crowd. There are old people who have lost homes, middle aged people who have lost jobs and younger people with overwhelming debt who can't find work to pay it off. The marches in Tampa are the largest and most organized in the south eastern US, so I imagine PSL and other socialist organizations will be showing up eventually.

Some people I know personally are indeed college students and aren't going to be out there around the clock. A university occupation sounds like a decent idea :D

[Crux]

Hong Kong solidarity with ‘Occupy Wall Street’ movement (http://chinaworker.info/en/content/news/1598/)

[KurtFF8]

Is there a sizeable communist presence at these demonstrations? I'll probably head down check it out tomorrow. I know I've seen some PSL signs floating about. I just hope that anarchist and Marxist organizations are out there agitating.

Anarchists seem to be running the process down there for the most part. It depends on what you mean by sizable I suppose.

Us Reds have been there too. Yesterday's (Wednesday) march with unions probably brought out the most Communist organizations though

[Fawkes]

IUH3JQjcweM

[Minima]

Can't we try and get in there and make it happen? isn't this the place to engage? to take the initiative and make something out of these protests? at least it's a starting point in opening a space for conversation.

[the last donut of the night]

The mood was jubilant as organized labor and thousands of workers crowded the streets of lower Manhattan to march in the largest and most diverse demonstration to date of the Occupy Wall Street movement, reports Danny Lucia.

October 6, 2011

A show of solidarity on Wall Street (http://socialistworker.org/2011/10/06/show-of-solidarity-on-wall-street)

now shit might get real

[Welshy]

Can't we try and get in there and make it happen? isn't this the place to engage? to take the initiative and make something out of these protests? at least it's a starting point in opening a space for conversation.

I don't know about you but I'm going to go to every General Assembly in my area and try to push my local GA more left and more radical.

[Skammunist]

I don't know about but I'm going to go to every General Assembly in my area and try to push my local GA more left and more radical.

This is what we have to do right now. We can't lose the momentum. I believe this can get very big, it just needs class consciousness. At the Occupy Tampa event in Florida, there were still people there who waved American flags. The frustration is there, but some of the protesters don't know who to blame. Keep it going comrade.

[Le Rouge]

Wow!!...1 month after the starting day of this movement, they finally got the number of protesters they wanted. 20 000.

[RadioRaheem84]

I am excited and am thrilled to have egg on my face for having doubted this movement.

It is wonderful to see people actually standing up in the States.

[Le Rouge]

we need this kind of event in Canada too...

[Welshy]

we need this kind of event in Canada too...

There is stuff planned in Canada, including the city you are in. I say search for the GA in your area and start pushing forth the communist program and start talking to the working class people you find there.

We need to make this occupy movement move beyond occupying public space and to start moving into work places or at least start bring more working class actions into the mix of actions being taken.

[Skammunist]

At the Occupy Tampa event, I actually passed this asshole while carrying my red flag. While he didn't start anything when I walked by, he started yelling "FUCK YOU, I'M A BANKER!" at the protesters soon after. Fucking bourgeois scum. He unfortunately got stopped at a red light as protesters retaliated with words. There is a video in one of the comments if you scroll down. If I was there when he got rowdy, he would have aten that Rolex.

The video also shows his license plate, but it is too blurry to see.

Edit: Here is the page with the comments: http://www.facebook.com/OccupyTampa#!/photo.php?fbid=10150334941758425&set=o.267684163262743&type=1&theater

[RadioRaheem84]

What a tool!

[Comrade Funk]

This is going global now with more protests outside the U.S. soon. Occupy Philly was the #1 story on the local FOX, NBC, ABC, and CBS stations Thursday. Had around 750-1000 people on the first day. Not a bad start.