People who can't contribute to the society?

[Yugo45]

So, what would happen to these people in a communist society?

I mean people who are mentally disabled and can't even do simple chores, but need to be cared by other people.

My logics tell me that they would be put and taken care of in medical institutions, like today.. But still, doesn't hurt to ask.

Also, what class are they?

[Dimmu]

They have to be taken care off and not all of the disabled people are so disabled that they cannot contribute. For example in Finland each holiday we get postcards home from an organization where disabled people paint with their feet etc.

In capitalism these people are looked down upon and are forced to live their lives in shame and believe that they cannot contribute in any way since capitalism is based on profit, but that is BS since many of these people are extremely talented and creative.

And these people are working class IMHO.

[EvilRedGuy]

^This, it also depends on what level people are mentally/physically disabled then we can adjust their work according to what abilities they have. "From each according to their abilities; To each according to their needs" It also depends on how long you are capable to work as a individual, all people are different whether they offically have a mental/physical diagnosis. This is why i don't believe in parecon economies, its not compatible to each persons abilities but instead ignorantly prefers "duration; need; length/hours, all that BS).

[ВАЛТЕР]

They need to be cared for by society. In a Communist society, you are not discarded because you cannot contribute, that is a trait of a Capitalist society. "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs." They may still be able to contribute in some small way, but even if they cannot then they still should be cared for.

[unfriendly]

Hi. I'm mentally disabled. I can't function independently, I can't live on my own, and I can't work. Please don't put me in an institution.

Any kind of anti-ableist praxis that I've seen involves changing social attitudes about disability and ~productivity~. One of the hardest things to reconcile with communists is the idea that an economic revolution won't immediately cause any sort of meaningful change for me addressing my oppression. Many leftists (using that term broadly, communists, Communists, Stalinists, anarchists, primitivists, whatthefuckever) look at me as a burden to be put away (or in the worst of cases euthanized -- one poster here recommended that we all be "rounded up and shot") and that isn't notably better than current prevailing attitudes towards me.

Here's something a friend of mine wrote about it.

http://youarenotyou.tumblr.com/post/6919036234/about-productivity

[Nox]

Everyone can contribute to society in some way or another, even if they need to be taken care of by others.

Take a look at Steven Hawkings, he needs to be in constant care and he can't move yet he's contributed more to mankind than 99% of able bodied people.

[Yugo45]

Alright, I see. And I take it it would be the same for people who are, let's say, in a comma with a very low chance of ever waking up?

[Nox]

Alright, I see. And I take it it would be the same for people who are, let's say, in a comma with a very low chance of ever waking up?

Well, if there was no chance/an extremely low chance of them waking up and I was the trained professional who was given the decision to make, I would pull the plug (on the life support machine).

[Dave B]

There is a really interesting quotation from Karl on this kind of thing in a rare discussion of what non capitalist society would look like.

It also includes a reductionist or if you like abstract or non capitalist specific view on surplus labour surplus product and surplus value etc etc



Of course, if wages are reduced to their general basis, namely, to that portion of the product of the producer’s own labour which passes over into the individual consumption of the labourer; if we relieve this portion of its capitalist limitations and extend it to that volume of consumption which is permitted, on the one hand, by the existing productivity of society (that is, the social productivity of his own individual labour as actually social), and which, on the other hand, the full development of the individuality requires; if, furthermore, we reduce the surplus-labour and surplus-product to that measure which is required under prevailing conditions of production of society, on the one side to create an insurance and reserve fund, and on the other to constantly expand reproduction to the extent dictated by social needs;


finally, if we include in No. 1 the necessary labour, and in No. 2 the surplus-labour, the quantity of labour which must always be performed by the able-bodied in behalf of the immature or incapacitated members of society, i.e., if we strip both wages and surplus-value,


both necessary and surplus labour, of their specifically capitalist character, then certainly there remain not these forms, but merely their rudiments, which are common to all social modes of production

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch50.htm

[#FF0000]

Alright, I see. And I take it it would be the same for people who are, let's say, in a comma with a very low chance of ever waking up?

I think that would be a decision made by immediate family/friends along with their doctors.

[Rodrigo]

There is a really interesting quotation from Karl on this kind of thing in a rare discussion of what non capitalist society would look like.

He also included children in this phrase, and no one talked about them specifically here. :) Their case are the same of those "disabled". If we put the "disabled" people into medical institutions, so we should isolate the children? I think that's not the right thing to do. Marginalizing minorities who suffer prejudice in a society will not solve their problems, but make them worse.

[Geiseric]

I can't see a reason why they can't be taught to do things, one thing about capitalist medical institutions is that they don't do much research on mentally disabled conditions. i believe that everybody can be taught to be of some kind of use to society. This is just a thought, but if abortions were completely legal they might be able to tell early on if there's something wrong, right? And if they can tell early, can't they abort the zygote and the couple tries again?

[unfriendly]

I can't see a reason why they can't be taught to do things, one thing about capitalist medical institutions is that they don't do much research on mentally disabled conditions. i believe that everybody can be taught to be of some kind of use to society. This is just a thought, but if abortions were completely legal they might be able to tell early on if there's something wrong, right? And if they can tell early, can't they abort the zygote and the couple tries again?
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Let's not do that, okay? What you're saying right now is basically "if we just ensure that nobody like you is ever born again, we won't have to worry about interacting with that kind of person." That's not okay. I think that my existence is quite a positive phenomenon that should be encouraged, not prevented.

One thing that I've done in the past and continue to do is advocate for the ability of people with disabilities to be defining our own narratives, and it's pretty common for people to be doing that, particularly people who own blogs. I personally run a blog about borderline personality disorder (http://bpdbreakdowns.tumblr.com/). At least one other (http://fyeahborderlinepeople.tumblr.com/) exists on the internet, while there are similar blogs dedicated to autism (http://fyeahautismspectrum.tumblr.com/), schizotypy (http://fyeahschizotypy.tumblr.com/), and existence as a plural system or a member of a plural system (http://aguideto-multiplicity.tumblr.com/). And then there are personal blogs run by people with disabilities (like the one in my sig! hi!) that are also an important form of self-advocacy.

The fact that we let the psychiatric industry, which arose out of a similar question of "what do we (neurotypical people) do about people who think differently than us?" define our lives for us is hopeless and disgusting. People get killed over that shit, it is not okay.

I do agree that science doesn't know a whole lot about neurodivergent people. I, personally, don't want them to unless they start listening to the huge number of people who already exist talking about our experiences.

[Misanthrope]

Hi. I'm mentally disabled. I can't function independently, I can't live on my own, and I can't work. Please don't put me in an institution.

Any kind of anti-ableist praxis that I've seen involves changing social attitudes about disability and ~productivity~. One of the hardest things to reconcile with communists is the idea that an economic revolution won't immediately cause any sort of meaningful change for me addressing my oppression. Many leftists (using that term broadly, communists, Communists, Stalinists, anarchists, primitivists, whatthefuckever) look at me as a burden to be put away (or in the worst of cases euthanized -- one poster here recommended that we all be "rounded up and shot") and that isn't notably better than current prevailing attitudes towards me.

Here's something a friend of mine wrote about it.

http://youarenotyou.tumblr.com/post/6919036234/about-productivity

I completely agree. Not only do "leftists" (note the quotation marks) see the mentally disabled in a hateful way in economic terms there is a still a deep rooted social prejudice against the disabled, which is reflected in our society. I despise violent fetishism within the "leftist" movement and other fascist or right wing tendencies (euthanization for Christ's sake?)

I agree with your friend as well. We are mentally programmed to always be doing something productive. Being told that from authority figures from the earliest of years.

I thank you for the blog and OP for the thread. This should really be payed attention too more. I myself haven't put much thought into it other then the oppression of drug addicts.



Everyone can contribute to society in some way or another, even if they need to be taken care of by others.

Take a look at Steven Hawkings, he needs to be in constant care and he can't move yet he's contributed more to mankind than 99% of able bodied people.

It's wrong to expect (or force) every disabled person to be a financial contributor, like someone earlier said, that is not in line with communist principles. Also, not everyone has the ability to be a theorist or the like.

[EvilRedGuy]

I can't see a reason why they can't be taught to do things, one thing about capitalist medical institutions is that they don't do much research on mentally disabled conditions. i believe that everybody can be taught to be of some kind of use to society. This is just a thought, but if abortions were completely legal they might be able to tell early on if there's something wrong, right? And if they can tell early, can't they abort the zygote and the couple tries again?


Fuck you.

People are different, we should be embracing that, not prevent them/that. Do you want to prevent other people's ethnicity, culture, nationality, mentality, decisions, etc?

:thumbdown:.

PS- The reason i said "Fuck you" was because you want to prevent mentally different people like me, from getting born.

[Nox]

It's wrong to expect (or force) every disabled person to be a financial contributor, like someone earlier said, that is not in line with communist principles. Also, not everyone has the ability to be a theorist or the like.

I just used Steven Hawkings as a good example.

The vast majority of disabled people have the ability to physically contribute to society in some way or another, others can contribute mentally, as for those than cannot contribute whatsoever, they will be supported by society like children and the elderly.

[Dave B]

Even these liberal ideas are infested with bourgeois ideology.

So we look after all these ‘incapacitated’ people because some of them will ‘pay us back’ later with profit by unravelling the mysteries of black holes, inventing nuclear fusion or writing whacky poems or something.

You look after people because they need it.

I appreciate that ‘incapacitated’ people don’t want to be dependent on the rest on society and want to feel as though they are useful etc.

So may be they could help by educating those who say that the lazy able bodied in free access moneyless socialism wouldn’t care whether or not they were useful and dependent.

[unfriendly]

Even these liberal ideas are infested with bourgeois ideology.

So we look after all these ‘incapacitated’ people because some of them will ‘pay us back’ later with profit by unravelling the mysteries of black holes, inventing nuclear fusion or writing whacky poems or something.

You look after people because they need it.

I appreciate that ‘incapacitated’ people don’t want to be dependent on the rest on society and want to feel as though they are useful etc.

So may be they could help by educating those who say that the lazy able bodied in free access moneyless socialism wouldn’t care whether or not they were useful and dependent.


To that end, I'm not really comfortable that "lazy" has been deconstructed enough to accept it as even a legitimate concept at this point. To me, every time I read a description of someone being lazy it sounds exactly like what it's like to have my autism-related executive dysfunction issues.

The part of my brain that tells the rest of me to do things doesn't always work right. So the reason I don't, for example, clean up a table after myself is because I'm literally incapable of remembering to do so. Even when I'm consciously aware that that's a thing to be doing, sometimes it just doesn't connect in a way that translates to action for me.

"Lazy" has been used to slur me over those kinds of issues a lot and it's really not cool.