Meme theory

[Fawkes]

What do people think about it? I've been thinking about it a lot lately and am still largely undecided as to how I feel about its usability. For one, the fact that it's defined as analogous to genes seems to be very restrictive.

Are memes just ideas and behaviors that evolve as a result of material conditions? That seems sensible enough, but I'm having trouble getting over the tautology of memes: a successful meme is a meme that is successful. With genes, a successful gene is one that enables its host organism to reproduce at a greater rate. Organisms living in a tropical area that possess a malaria-resistant gene will reproduce that gene at a higher rate than those that do not possess a malaria-resistant gene. I'm having trouble translating that to memes.

If all ideas and behaviors are just the result of material conditions, that would mean that we have no control over them. Now, if we wished to change certain thoughts and behaviors, we would need to change the material conditions. But how can those conditions be changed without new ways of thinking and acting?

Maybe I'm just misinterpreting meme theory or something (and please tell me if I am), but either way, I'm interested in hearing what others think about it.

[blake 3:17]

They`re infectious.

[Rafiq]

Now, if we wished to change certain thoughts and behaviors, we would need to change the material conditions. But how can those conditions be changed without new ways of thinking and acting?



Through class warfare, i.e. Revolution, which is nothing new. After a revolution things change drastically on their own, via, you know, common sense.

"Men and Women make history, but not as they please" kind of thing.

Changing all of our thoughts and ideas radically is impossible under our current constraint. The Idea of an airplane would have never been put into reality under Feudalism, as an example.

We need education and schools to fuel our brains. Without a powerful economy that isn't possible, again, we're in a constraint.

[human strike]

No war but meme war!

[Luís Henrique]

What do people think about it?

We have discussed Dawkins' works a few times here:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/thoughts-dawkinsi-t150045/index2.html
http://www.revleft.com/vb/why-left-hostile-t132454/index.html
http://www.revleft.com/vb/opinions-selfish-genei-t81260/index.html
http://www.revleft.com/vb/dawkins-spreads-word-t64709/index.html

While this of course covers other stuff by Dawkins, memetics is mentioned and discussed.


Are memes just ideas and behaviors that evolve as a result of material conditions?I think you are reading Marx into Dawkins. Nowhere he seems to say anything similar to "ideas and behaviours that evolve as a result of material conditions"; indeed this would defeat his idea of self-replicating memes.


That seems sensible enough, but I'm having trouble getting over the tautology of memes: a successful meme is a meme that is successful. With genes, a successful gene is one that enables its host organism to reproduce at a greater rate. Organisms living in a tropical area that possess a malaria-resistant gene will reproduce that gene at a higher rate than those that do not possess a malaria-resistant gene. I'm having trouble translating that to memes.And "memetics" is confuse, because it cannot decide whether a succesful meme is a meme that helps "host organisms" to reproduce/survive, or if it is a meme that reproduces itself at a greater rate than other memes.


If all ideas and behaviors are just the result of material conditions, that would mean that we have no control over them.Well, memetics manages to deny that ideas and behaviours are the result of material conditions, and to deny that we have control over them (rather it seems that ideas would have control over us).


Now, if we wished to change certain thoughts and behaviors, we would need to change the material conditions. But how can those conditions be changed without new ways of thinking and acting?These points don't apply to memetics: according to it, we simply don't change thoughts or behaviours: they change themselves, regardless of our will - though there is the strange thing that some ideas (namely, Dawkins ideas, or, a bit less narrowly, scientific ideas in general) that aren't memes at all, but relate to reality, and are valid according to such relation to reality. In other words, Marxism, Islam, or psychoanalysis, are memes, and their success is related to their ability to reproduce themselves/help people who hold them reproduce. "Scientific ideas" are not memes, and stand, not due to their ability to reproduce/help to reproduce, but due to being "true".

Luís Henrique