Good to see they're educating us properly in school

[Lanky Wanker]

In my sixth form (16 - 18 in high school in the UK) we have to do at least 15 hours of extra curriculum work type stuff to increase our chances of being accepted by whatever universities we apply for. This afternoon there was a guy who came in to tell us about a mini-business thing we can do to get some hours done and earn a fair bit of money (actually for ourselves this time and not the teachers' end-of-year alcohol charity). Anyway, the idea is that we buy a bunch of stuff dead cheap in big heaps wherever we can, then sell them to people who don't need them for like x3 the price. One story the guy told us was about a group of students (from my school I think) a few years back who made a good few thousand - about £6,000 if I remember correctly - from buying a massive heap of webcams and selling them at higher prices to unsuspecting victims who didn't even know what they were. Not sure if the webcam thing was a different story, as there were a few he shared with us, but they were all just as ridiculous. And, as expected, he told us that we can't sell anything we make ourselves.

Am I just over thinking this or does it sound like some kind of A-level course in greedybusinessmanism?

[Nox]

Am I just over thinking this or does it sound like some kind of A-level course in greedybusinessmanism?

More like 'usedcarsalesmanism' ;)

[Lanky Wanker]

More like 'usedcarsalesmanism' ;)

Middlemanism! I'm gonna be famous for my -ismism.

Edit: Or middlemanmiddlemanism? I'm confusing myself now.

[Zav]

Am I just over thinking this or does it sound like some kind of A-level course in greedybusinessmanism?
Yes it is. Is Atlas Shrugged required reading there too?

[Lanky Wanker]

Yes it is. Is Atlas Shrugged required reading there too?

I'm not too familiar with that book so I'm guessing there's a joke under that? Smart ol' me.

[FuzzypegX]

I'm not too familiar with that book so I'm guessing there's a joke under that? Smart ol' me.

"Atlas Shrugged" is a famous dystopian novel by Ayn Rand. Rand's dystopia is essentially big government social democracy gone mad to which she counter-poses unfettered free market competition as the most natural and desirable arrangement for human society.

It's actually quite a good book, or at least a fun read, despite its reputation and despite its author's abhorrent political/economic viewpoint.

[Lanky Wanker]

"Atlas Shrugged" is a famous dystopian novel by Ayn Rand. Rand's dystopia is essentially big government social democracy gone mad to which she counter-poses unfettered free market competition as the most natural and desirable arrangement for human society.

It's actually quite a good book, or at least a fun read, despite its reputation and despite its author's abhorrent political/economic viewpoint.

I did Google it but it didn't seem to give me a great summary of what it was about. Sounds quite interesting though, though books do tend to lose my attention after a while (which is quite a problem when you have to read millions of books to understand communism/anarchy fully lol).

[Yuppie Grinder]

"Atlas Shrugged" is a famous dystopian novel by Ayn Rand. Rand's dystopia is essentially big government social democracy gone mad to which she counter-poses unfettered free market competition as the most natural and desirable arrangement for human society.

It's actually quite a good book, or at least a fun read, despite its reputation and despite its author's abhorrent political/economic viewpoint.
it's awfully written.
the only reason people read it is out of curriosity about the philosophy behind the book or because the book reinforces their world view. it's a bunch of flowery gibberish where people solve their problems with long speeches about how trying to limit the power of the ruling elite is absolute tyranny.
artistically awful
philosophically moronic

[Le Socialiste]

Public education is basically the means through which students and young adults are taught to accept and conform to various forms of authority. Here in the U.S. kids are brought up as ready-made workers. All the while, our education system is becoming increasingly privatized - especially in California, where the growing consensus amongst big business and the financial-political elite is "Not all students are interested in attending college, and not all of them should.” The WSWS has an article about this, where they quote from an editorial in the Los Angeles Times that claims what students need isn't an education that primes them to think critically - instead, they say they need an education system that primarily trains students to “qualify for a satisfying and well-paid job.” I only bring this up because I suspect that, despite the differences between the American and British education systems, they are greatly alike in their pursuit of churning out not critical-minded thinkers, but workers.

[Susurrus]

Sell stuff to bourgeoisie die-hard capitalists, then give some of the money to charity, party, union, whatever.

Then it's not capitalism, it's stealing from the rich!

[Rafiq]

If you have a chance to get rich, go ahead.

But understand that you are risking that in the near future your property will be confiscated .

[Lanky Wanker]

Public education is basically the means through which students and young adults are taught to accept and conform to various forms of authority. Here in the U.S. kids are brought up as ready-made workers. All the while, our education system is becoming increasingly privatized - especially in California, where the growing consensus amongst big business and the financial-political elite is "Not all students are interested in attending college, and not all of them should.” The WSWS has an article about this, where they quote from an editorial in the Los Angeles Times that claims what students need isn't an education that primes them to think critically - instead, they say they need an education system that primarily trains students to “qualify for a satisfying and well-paid job.” I only bring this up because I suspect that, despite the differences between the American and British education systems, they are greatly alike in their pursuit of churning out not critical-minded thinkers, but workers.

We're actually looking at Marxist views on public education in sociology at the moment (as well as the new right/conservatism) and the idea of school being a way of turning people into robots so that they do what society tells them to. Quite funny how this information is slapping people in the face with its wet fish, yet they fail to actually take any of it into consideration.

I think that British education is probably a bit more encouraging, and my school in particular is quite good for helping those who aren't doing so well, but the overall idea is still the same. "Lay down and play dead whilst I put your collar on" is still the way it works, as does any part of society.

[Lanky Wanker]

Sell stuff to bourgeoisie die-hard capitalists, then give some of the money to charity, party, union, whatever.

Then it's not capitalism, it's stealing from the rich!

True that, but at first you just think of it as stealing from the poor in the same way that their bosses do. I was thinking I could probably sell a bunch of useless shit to the snobby golf boys across the road... after seeing one of the cars they were in though I don't think they're as rich as they make out.

[FuzzypegX]

it's awfully written.
the only reason people read it is out of curriosity about the philosophy behind the book or because the book reinforces their world view. it's a bunch of flowery gibberish where people solve their problems with long speeches about how trying to limit the power of the ruling elite is absolute tyranny.
artistically awful
philosophically moronic

That's a fairly tedious dismissal. I totally detest the philosophy behind the book, but I don't agree that it's "artistically awful" (that's a meaningless criticism since pure artistic merit is subjective), I think some of the descriptive passages - particularly the one's exalting the power of industry - are excellent. Certainly the book's political message takes center-stage and subordinates everything else to it, but it certainly fares better as pure fiction than, for example, Orwell's "Animal Farm" which is far clumsier with its politics.

[Le Socialiste]

We're actually looking at Marxist views on public education in sociology at the moment (as well as the new right/conservatism) and the idea of school being a way of turning people into robots so that they do what society tells them to. Quite funny how this information is slapping people in the face with its wet fish, yet they fail to actually take any of it into consideration.

Sad ain't it?


I think that British education is probably a bit more encouraging, and my school in particular is quite good for helping those who aren't doing so well, but the overall idea is still the same. "Lay down and play dead whilst I put your collar on" is still the way it works, as does any part of society

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the conservative/liberal democrat coalition in the process of cutting the bulk of its aid in areas such as helping one afford an education?

[FuzzypegX]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the conservative/liberal democrat coalition in the process of cutting the bulk of its aid in areas such as helping one afford an education?

Yes. They've eliminated Educational Maintenance Allowance (EMA) which was designed to persuade young people to stay on into further education (A-Level's) past 16 and removed the cap on university tuition fees which has made fees of £9,000 a year the norm. There is some debate on the latter point as to whether students will genuinely be worse off but nonetheless it creates a psychological disincentive for student's from poorer backgrounds.

In general the trend seems to be moving backwards to the time when a university education in Britain was the preserve of the wealthy.

This having been said, it's important not to over-estimate how much "an education" has really done for the working classes in Britain. Even when university education was free Britain was not transformed into a meritocracy and the class system managed to replicate itself with relative ease.

[Lanky Wanker]

Yes. They've eliminated Educational Maintenance Allowance (EMA) which was designed to persuade young people to stay on into further education (A-Level's)

They've knocked out the EMA, but we have this Bursary thing now which is basically the same. Most people were able to receive it because of how much their parents earn, but my mum earns a fair amount so it wasn't available to me. Not sure what the difference is in how much people get every week, I'm sure it's the same amount as EMA.

[TheGeekySocialist]

Yes. They've eliminated Educational Maintenance Allowance (EMA) which was designed to persuade young people to stay on into further education (A-Level's) past 16 and removed the cap on university tuition fees which has made fees of £9,000 a year the norm. There is some debate on the latter point as to whether students will genuinely be worse off but nonetheless it creates a psychological disincentive for student's from poorer backgrounds.

In general the trend seems to be moving backwards to the time when a university education in Britain was the preserve of the wealthy.

This having been said, it's important not to over-estimate how much "an education" has really done for the working classes in Britain. Even when university education was free Britain was not transformed into a meritocracy and the class system managed to replicate itself with relative ease.

university education has almost always been the preserve of the rich in the UK, even now it's shamefully middle class at best, rare to find a Uni which is dominated by the working class and therefore demographically representative tbh, I include my own Uni in that, there's a few people around from poorer backgrounds but not anything like the level where you can claim it's some beacon of social mobility (if you even ascribe to such rhetorical dross to begin with that is)

education at primary and secondary levels is the only place you will find large numbers of working class people tbh, sixth forms even with EMA had issues with intake from deprived areas, with EMA gone that get's worse still.

I think it's naive to think that education in the UK has ever had some sort of golden age where the working class had access to and were able to benefit from it at all levels.

the goal of the Left is not to preserve the pathetic titbits that we are thrown by the occasional Labour government in order to keep people in line, the goal of the Left is to fight for an entirely different education system altogether, one in which not only is access no longer an issue, but the education one receives drastically improved as well.

:thumbup1:

[TheGeekySocialist]

They've knocked out the EMA, but we have this Bursary thing now which is basically the same. Most people were able to receive it because of how much their parents earn, but my mum earns a fair amount so it wasn't available to me. Not sure what the difference is in how much people get every week, I'm sure it's the same amount as EMA.

bursary goes to the institution not the student...that is a significant difference, it is also likely to go to both far less students and be considerably less than the EMA was. they get 0 from the bursary each week, there institution gets less than what students would have got from EMA instead, they can then decide whether or not they want to give any students direct financial support from it. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-12881747)

the EMA ranged from £10 to £30 a week, I got £30 a week myself at college, used it for; bus fare and food mainly, saved a bit when I could, it helped my mum out a lot not having to pay for my travel or lunches at college.

[FuzzypegX]

I think it's naive to think that education in the UK has ever had some sort of golden age where the working class had access to and were able to benefit from it at all levels.

That was precisely my point about the class system continuing to replicate itself. Statistically, however, it was the case that significantly more people from disadvantaged backgrounds went to university when it was free than subsequently. Naturally they were significantly worse placed to benefit from that opportunity owing to socio-economic deprivation, but that wasn't my point, and naturally the overall balance of the student-body was heavily weighted towards the affluent classes, but that also wasn't my point.


the goal of the Left is not to preserve the pathetic titbits that we are thrown by the occasional Labour government in order to keep people in line, the goal of the Left is to fight for an entirely different education system altogether, one in which not only is access no longer an issue, but the education one receives drastically improved as well.

This is obvious and nobody in this discussion was saying otherwise.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Guess what happens here in Greece for education?Instead of receiving books in the beginning of the year as normaly happens,the goverment said that the book have not be printed yet due to the hard work of those who work to print them.Instead,I recieved a DVD with the books and it sucks!But Yeah,lets first get money for the minister's trip in Bahamas and then lets give it for education.It is just education;nothing really important.This is how the capitalists think.

[Lanky Wanker]

A DVD instead of a book? lol wtf

[Lanky Wanker]

bursary goes to the institution not the student...that is a significant difference, it is also likely to go to both far less students and be considerably less than the EMA was. they get 0 from the bursary each week, there institution gets less than what students would have got from EMA instead, they can then decide whether or not they want to give any students direct financial support from it. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-12881747)

the EMA ranged from £10 to £30 a week, I got £30 a week myself at college, used it for; bus fare and food mainly, saved a bit when I could, it helped my mum out a lot not having to pay for my travel or lunches at college.

Sneaky plan these fuckers got here I see then. Even parents earning significantly more than the requirements for a bursary application have troubles paying for a lot of stuff, so I do understand how useful EMA could have been. I wouldn't have qualified for EMA either as far as I know, yet we could still do with even an extra tenner every week. My lazy self-employed capitalist dad is supposed to help out with that stuff though, yet he'd rather spend money on himself and his girlfriend.

[Yuppie Grinder]

That's a fairly tedious dismissal. I totally detest the philosophy behind the book, but I don't agree that it's "artistically awful" (that's a meaningless criticism since pure artistic merit is subjective), I think some of the descriptive passages - particularly the one's exalting the power of industry - are excellent. Certainly the book's political message takes center-stage and subordinates everything else to it, but it certainly fares better as pure fiction than, for example, Orwell's "Animal Farm" which is far clumsier with its politics.
perfering rand to wells is just... silly

[FuzzypegX]

perfering rand to wells is just... silly

Why? If you're talking about purely literary/artistic merit then it's a matter of subjective opinion. If you're talking about their politics, then I find both of them to be equally obnoxious.