Libertarianism and Marxist ideology?

[comrade_cyanide444]

So I've been wondering. A lot of people give me crap for supporting Libertarian ideology (i.e social, civil rights and leaning towards personal liberty) while also leaning towards a strongly Marxist style of thinking. I'm just wondering: Can Marxism and Libertarianism coexist? Last year I wrote a term paper on how Socialism promotes economic and social freedom (primarily by removing a economic and hierarchical barriers to personal goals and pursuits) for my AP US History (high school US history) class, but I'm starting to question whether my thinking is rational. I've been a big fan of personal freedom (i.e the right to act as one wishes so long as it doesn't interfere with another's capability to act as they wish). Is it possible for Marxism or Socialism to coexist with a Libertarian political system that endorses a smaller, less complex political structure? Is there any ideology or literature I should read on? I read a small beginner's guide to Anarchism (something from the Oxford press) that detailed some of Kropotkin and Bakunin's anarcho-collectivist ideas. Can one consider their train of thought as so-called Libertarian Marxist?


Thanks,


Richik

[Susurrus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Marxism

[comrade_cyanide444]

Yes, I have seen that before. Is it a really popular theory with a rational base? Are there historical examples of communities or revolutions where this system was pursued?

[TheGeekySocialist]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Marxism

^this :)

imo Socialism/Marxism/Communism without significant social Freedom's is nothing but another form of oppression

[Susurrus]

Is it possible for Marxism or Socialism to coexist with a Libertarian political system that endorses a smaller, less complex political structure? Is there any ideology or literature I should read on? I read a small beginner's guide to Anarchism (something from the Oxford press) that detailed some of Kropotkin and Bakunin's anarcho-collectivist ideas. Can one consider their train of thought as so-called Libertarian Marxist?


Yes, usually based on direct democracy in small, councils joined in federations. Try reading Alexander Berkman's ABC of Anarchism(http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html), Emma Goldman's Anarchism: What it Really Stands For(http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/aando/anarchism.html), and Communism and Anarchism by Kropotkin (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/comanar.html). Yes, more or less that could be said.

[Susurrus]

Yes, I have seen that before. Is it a really popular theory with a rational base? Are there historical examples of communities or revolutions where this system was pursued?

Spanish Civil War/Revolution, Ukrainian Free Territory, Shinmin autonomous Region, and unofficially the Paris Commune and the EZLN.

[Susurrus]

imo Socialism/Marxism/Communism without significant social Freedom's is nothing but another form of oppression

Socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality;
Liberty without Socialism is privilege and injustice.
Bakunin

[TheGeekySocialist]

Socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality;
Liberty without Socialism is privilege and injustice.
Bakunin

thanks, I knew I have read the quote before but couldn't remember it off hand :)

[redtex]

Can Marxism and Libertarianism coexist?... Can one consider their train of thought as so-called Libertarian Marxist?

Speaking as someone new to communism, I am counting on it. I don't see a lot of people here using the word libertarian, maybe because of those so-called right libertarians. I do however see a lot of people using anarchy, or anarchist and that is what I am leaning towards. So social and civil rights, yes! I want personal freedom for everyone. I am 100% anti-authoritarian.

[Klaatu]

I am not one of the 'experts,' but in my humble opinion, it is capitalism that is the enslaving force in our lives... That being said, it is perfectly logical to say that society needs a type of economic system which guarantees (not merely 'promises') an equal opportunity for all people to succeed. For far too long, we have been told that it was the capitalist system that offers this opportunity, yet we find that this so-called 'opportunity' only exists, in and of itself, as a "way-to-get-rich-for-the lucky-few."

Personally I am not interested in a few people 'getting rich,' rather, I am interested in the masses having a fair opportunity at getting a fair shake and a fair opportunity at making a fair living. Hence I support Socialism.

[Le Socialiste]

There's a variety of different "tendencies" within communism, anarchism, and Marxism that advocate varying shades of libertarianism (not to be mistaken with rightwing libertarianism). You have your anarchists, your anarcho-syndicalists, your libertarian socialists and marxists, council communists, anarcho-communists, anarcho-collectivists, etc. etc. So yes, there's plenty of room for a revolutionary leftism that adheres to libertarian modes of thought. Most have to do with the dismantlement and absence of the state, with the workers having complete control - both economically and politically. These "tendencies" (I really dislike that word, hence the quotation marks) are normally against all forms of oppression, authority, and coercion. They rely on a basic form of local, regional, national, and international cooperation with workers nearby and afar. As for suggested reading, I'd say "What is Anarchism" by Alexander Berkman, "Anarchism and Anarcho-Syndicalism" by Rudolf Rocker, "Anarchism and Anarchist Communism" by Kropotkin, and "Anarchists in the Spanish Revolution" by Jose Peirats (for an overview of organizational and social methods). Granted, these focus solely on Anarchism, but it's still a good start.

[Kadir Ateş]

Yes, I have seen that before. Is it a really popular theory with a rational base? Are there historical examples of communities or revolutions where this system was pursued?

I would be careful about the way you use the term "rational"--according to whom and for what? Rational in the sense that it promotes economic efficiency? Rational in the sense that it is an "obvious" answer to the ills begotten the working class? Noam Chomsky would say that in some ways socialism is a "rational" option if one were to look at it from the perspective of the Liberal Enlightenment, that wage-labor is clearly exploitative [but I don't know--is it that obvious?]

Yes, there are historical examples of where the working class have managed to poke holes through capitalism and dared live a reality--albeit short-lived--contrary to that of bourgeois society. The Paris Commune, the Russian soviets are two famous examples. And more.

[CommunityBeliever]

I've been a big fan of personal freedom (i.e the right to act as one wishes so long as it doesn't interfere with another's capability to act as they wish). Is it possible for Marxism or Socialism to coexist with a Libertarian political systemIt is impossible for Marxism to exist without personal freedom. I doubt you can show me any of Marx's works that speak out against *personal* freedom. However, what Marxism may not be able to coexist with is some ultraleft ideologies that oppose all worker's states and vanguard parties.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Libertarian Socialism is the only Socialism that won't degenerate. It includes anarchist, luxemburgist and left-communist schools of thought.

Go to www.marxists.org and read Rosa Luxemburg's 'The Russian Revolution', final chapter, for a good expose on the problems with authoritarian, right-wing Socialism.

[TheGeekySocialist]

Libertarian Socialism is the only Socialism that won't degenerate. It includes anarchist, luxemburgist and left-communist schools of thought.

Go to www.marxists.org and read Rosa Luxemburg's 'The Russian Revolution', final chapter, for a good expose on the problems with authoritarian, right-wing Socialism.

yes! really cannot recommend the bolded enough!

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Yeah it's a bloody good read. The only thing i'd say is that it should be understood within the context of Luxemburg's politics. She wasn't some radical libertarian or anything like, she would probably have been positioned on the right-wing of the left-communist movement, yet it was this that allowed her to make such a damning criticism of the right-wing politics of the Bolsheviks.

[The Idler]

Marx, Theoretician of Anarchism - Maximilien Rubel (1973) (http://theoryandpractice.org.uk/library/marx-theoretician-anarchism-maximilien-rubel-1973)

[syndicat]

Libertarian Socialism is the only Socialism that won't degenerate. It includes anarchist, luxemburgist and left-communist schools of thought. i don't think there was anything the least libertarian about the left-communism of bordiga. the KAPD-AAUD are arguable. there is no poitical organization called "luxemburgist." And luxemburg didn't brook opposition when she was head of the Polish socialist party. the problem here is that "libertarian" remains vague and undefined.

[blake 3:17]

To respond to the OP, I'd say yes. I'm interested in creating a better world where we have individual and collective freedoms, political and ecological justice and economic equality.

At times particular interests or values may diverge.

Rather than relying on an anarchist or left communist perspective as a blueprint, I'd take it point by point.

I support the Bolivarian revolution in Venezuela but recoil when I hear its supporters asking Chavez to impose censorship. Socialists have been pretty so-so on many questions around sexuality, drugs and other "vices". I think it possible to combine the best elements of liberalism, in the sense of individual self determination, with the best elements of socialism as a form of political and economic democracy.

I think it's possible for Leftists to make tactical alliances with libertarians on particular issues when challenging the state. Parts of the Left have become very reliant on state agencies and legal systems that they abandon basic emancipatory goals.

I was very impressed that the Occupy Wall Street group had the demand of the abolition of the death penalty. Capital punishment is the ultimate form of injustice and the destruction of individual and social freedom. Only two socialist revolutions have abolished it -- Nicaragua and, recently, Cuba.

I`d like the socialist Left to take up the cause of drug decriminalization on a more serious basis.