At what age did you start looking into leftist ideologies?

[Lanky Wanker]

Wasn't sure where else to post this, but I was just wondering at what age most people on here got into the whole leftist thing and when you actually came to realise your "ism" (if you actually use one for yourself). I hear some people have gone through a fair few but let's go back to the beginning. I myself have a long way to go before I can identify myself with any particular ideology.

[Broletariat]

like 15 or so.

[Susurrus]

14-15 I should think.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

18 ....was an ultra-conservative who bordered on fascism before I discovered leftist ideology.Needless to say that really cleaned out my system.

As to what average age it is impossible to tell as everyone is different.

[Bud Struggle]

I studied them in college--on the other hand that is where I found William F. Buckley.

He made me glad I didn't get into Yale.

Anyway I still have a few of my Leftist college books: Socialst Thought a Documentary History by Albert Fried and Ronald Sanders being one.

[Aloysius]

14/15. Anarchism by way of CrimethInc.

[Lanky Wanker]

Younger than I expected! Looks like I need to speed up the reading... :blushing:

[#FF0000]

11 or so. I started reading all sorts of shit about history after 9/11

[Die Rote Fahne]

17ish

[Leonid Brozhnev]

I've been interested in Communism since I first learned about the Soviet Union when I was pretty young, but didn't start taking it seriously until I was about 17-18.

[OHumanista]

13 or 14 though I was raised by a commie so I got lil bits since I was born, but I only started going SERIOUSLY into it after 17 (I am 19 now)

[TheGodlessUtopian]

13 or 14 though I was raised by a commie so I got lil bits since I was born, but I only started going SERIOUSLY into it after 17 (I am 19 now)

What was it like being raised by a communist? I mean that like...would you say it was considerably different compared to what you hear about non-communists?

[cogar66]

13, looked into Anarchism first, now I'm more of an undecided Marxist.

[Sentinel]

I was a leftist when I was a kid, due to my parents being leftists, then apolitical and confused as a teenager, and finally firmly a leftist again when I was about 22 or 23.

[Revolution starts with U]

I've been signing my name with an anarchy A since I was 11. I was always anti-authority, pro-choice, and pro-solidarity. Started watching George Carlin at about 13, and found Chomsky at like 15. I didn't really start studying anarchism specifically until I was like 19 tho.

[Agent Ducky]

I had this fascination with communism at age 14, decided I was actually a communist at age 15 (I'm 15 now) and I don't identify with any particular "ism" but I lean towards libertarian varieties of communism.

[Luc]

Started reading about socialism at 14 and now the only thing I hate more than fascists is the state.

:blackA: muthafuckas!

[The Stalinator]

13, in the eighth grade. I wrote an essay defending capitalism to my closet-Marxist geography teacher.
And then I realized that he was right. Later that year for creative writing, I made a little fantasy world and I decided to put in a "perfect" society that was somewhat socialistic, because by then I had kind of realized socialism wasn't the devil and I wanted to see if I could make it look good.

And then over the summer break I read up on basic communist theory and I joined RevLeft. I feel very accomplished for some odd reason.

[RED DAVE]

14. Went to high school in the only Commie suburb in the US.

RED DAVE

[Astarte]

13/14 ... after parents declared bankruptcy/we had to move, this was around when the original "Red Alert" game came out, and I always liked history as a kid, so Stalin really hit the spot, even though I would eventually find Trotsky...

[Le Socialiste]

I didn't start looking into revolutionary leftism until I was 17 (I'm currently 21). I was just a Democrat from a solidly Democratic family (at least on my mom's side :rolleyes:) who picked up a copy of Marx's "Communist Manifesto" and liked what he read. Even then, though, I didn't really know if I wanted to be a communist (it seemed like such a taboo topic/stance at the time). So I remained a Democrat, and voted for Obama in '08 - something I regret to this day. After that it didn't take long for me to become "radicalized", as I began to see through the bullshit that is our fine democracy. Less than a year after Obama's election, I had become firmly cemented in the Marxist camp. I was still searching though, so I began to read more into the various "tendencies" and subgroups of communism/anarchism. In the time between now and then, I went from being a Marxist-Leninist to a Trotskyist to a Democratic Socialist (joined the DSA for a time - another choice I regret to this day) to a Luxemburgist to an Anarchist/Libertarian Socialist (which is where I currently find myself, both politically and ideologically). It's been quite the journey. :cool:

[aworldsman]

Four months ago for me - 22. Fuck me in the ear, this is exciting.

[o well this is ok I guess]

18, I guess. I'd just took up shoplifting books and grabbed the revolution of everyday life.
Though in truth, my dad was left leaning and my mom ran with the marxists in the Philippines, so needless to say my household had always been left leaning, so I dunno what counts.

[Ostrinski]

16. Currently 18. I stumbled upon communism on accident. I sort of developed a fascination with philosophy and started reading Voltaire/Rousseau/Spinoza/etc/etc/etc and eventually got to Marx. I was instantly drawn to it.

[Susurrus]

14. Went to high school in the only Commie suburb in the US.

RED DAVE

Oh my, where is this paradise?

[La Comédie Noire]

when I was 14 I read the jungle and then got interested in communism at 15, joined revleft and the rest is history!

[CommunityBeliever]

I was 14/15 or so when I became a leftist mainly after reading library books written by Noam Chomsky. I am a 18 now.

[RichardAWilson]

=)

[Catmatic Leftist]

i read 1984 in Freshman Honors English and it mentioned communism, so I looked into it. I was still an idiot liberal back then, but then I got a job, and everything I read in the Communist Manifesto made absolutely perfect sense to me.

[NGNM85]

I developed a kind of general anti-establishment sensibility when I was first getting into the local punk rock scene when I was about 12. I picked up Emma Goldman's Anarchism & Other Essays from the local library when I was 14. Pretty soon I was printing out pamphlets and articles by Bakunin, Kropotkin, Bookchin, Chomsky, etc. , on the school computers, and then I became a full-fledged Anarchist. Fast-forward a decade and change and I haven't changed much, philosophically, since then.

[Smyg]

About 15, I'd say.

[Sinred]

18 ....was an ultra-conservative who bordered on fascism before I discovered leftist ideology.Needless to say that really cleaned out my system.

As to what average age it is impossible to tell as everyone is different.

Same here, especially antiimmigration. At age 14 i used to hang around with the nazis or Sweden Democrats in my school. My best friend titled himself as fascist (awww the 90´s...).
When i studied thru red homepages what communism was really all about i was quickly hooked, especially on the international bit.
I was from then on a closet.marxist, first labeled myself as a social democrat, then socialist and at 16 i came out as a communist. Ive always been verbally skilled and wasn't really ashamed of my views anymore. My racist friends to my surprise, did not care that much. Almost all of them are today either apolitical or socialists. I like to think much because of me.
When i at age sixteen entered the gymnasium (swedish version of something between high school and collage) i came in contact with other leftists.
I wasn't impressed.
I have from then on always disliked people who tries to express themselves thru alternative lifestyles. The syndicalists and anarchists looked like skinny punks, goth or synth-fans. And the leftists gave the look of complete muppets.
Both was rarely working class and would be complete aliens in a working class environment.
I knew this wouldnt work. Plus i already considered myself marxist-leninist.
There wasn't any ML organisation in my city so i contacted the Revolutionary Communist Youth and took it upon starting a chapter myself that finally was functional when i was around age 17.
And from then it has been rolling. Today i am not as active as before but an active member of the Communist Party.

This simple answer to the threads question got a bit longer than expected :P

[Jimmie Higgins]

I was 22 or 23. In retrospect I can see some trends and threads earlier than that, but it wasn't until the Seattle protests in 99 that I began seriously looking into radical politics.

[Zav]

As far as I can remember, I've always had ideas that can be considered Leftist, even as a kid,such as "Everyone should be treated fairly.", "Stealing from poor people is wrong.", "Stealing stuff from rich people and then helping the poor with it is good.", "War is bad.", "Helping people is good.", and the like. I first became political, however, somewhere about the age of fifteen. I've been around the block as far as ideologies go, being at one time or another a Democrat, a Libertarian (yes, the Randian kind. Not proud.), a Social Democrat, a Democratic Socialist, a Marxist-Leninist, a no-adjectives Communist, a Libertarian Communist, an Anarcho-Syndicalist, a Stirnerist, and an Anarcho-Communist, in roughly that order. Some positions lasted a few months and some a few years, and I've been an An-Com for a good many years (shall not date myself).

[ComradeMan]

As far as I can remember, I've always had ideas that can be considered Leftist, even as a kid,such as "Everyone should be treated fairly.", "Stealing from poor people is wrong.", "Stealing stuff from rich people and then helping the poor with it is good.", "War is bad.", "Helping people is good.", and the like. I first became political, however, somewhere about the age of fifteen.

In the same way it goes for me I suppose. Well, this may be surprising to some- it was actually for more spiritual/religious reasons than any political writings- primarily the social-justice values of Judaism and also the teachings of Hillel the Elder, Buddha and Jesus all point to a socialist world. At the end of the day if we all followed the Golden Rule etc- see Talmud: Shabbat 31a..... I only read the more modern political stuff much later.

[Nox]

14/15.

I've noticed alot of other people have said this too, I think it's because that's the age that people generally begin to get interested in politics.

[Leo]

It all started when a school mate called me a communist when I was eight years old. I of course had no idea what the term meant at the time.

[RHIZOMES]

15-16. Was a Chomskyite, then some sort of weird anarchist/Trotskyist hybrid (16), then when I realised the failings of those I went into ultra-ML mode for a while (18-19). The I realised that was stupid too, and that I was buying into a false irrelevant dichotomy sustained by psuedo-leftist sectoids. It was at this point that I began to identify with only one 'ism' - Marxism (now, 20).

[RED DAVE]

14. Went to high school in the only Commie suburb in the US.
Oh my, where is this paradise?Croton-on-Hudson, NY in the 1950s.

Starting from before WWI until the end of the Sixties, dozens of famous artists, writers, most of them lefties, lived there. Paul Robeson used to visit there often and spent the night before the Peekskill Riot there.

See the scenes in "Reds" where John Reed is telegraphing Louise Bryant in "Croton-on-Hoodson, New York"!

I belonged to one of the few Jewish youth groups on the Attorney General's List of Subversive Organizations.

RED DAVE

[Agnapostate]

I was "the communist kid" to a lot of people by my freshman year.

[thriller]

I was always a little left leaning, but it wasn't until I went overseas that I became anti-capitalist. Given the fact that I was raised in a small town in Wisconsin, USA, my whole life I was fed the 'USA, Free Market, is #1, fuck everyone else!' Once I went to Florence and Munich I saw Communist Party posters and even a black bloc group protesting an eviction of squatters. At this point I realized 'wow, I have been brainwashed!' I went home, bought the Manifesto, read it, and have been a commie ever since. I was 16 at this point (am now 22). Yes, Karl Marx warped my fragile, little mind.

[Demogorgon]

I was extremely precocious politically speaking. I began following politics regularly when I was eight or nine. Almost immediately I was identifying as left wing and by the age of twelve I knew enough about Marx to identify as "Marxist".

Obviously what I believe now is far more sophisticated than what I believed then and in many ways completely different. Learning new information has sometimes changed my mind about things and sometimes reinforced what I believe but I think my instinct to the left dates right back to my childhood.

[Kosakk]

17-ish. Started out as socialist, basically.
Moved on to left-communism. I'm 24 now.

[Misanthrope]

Around seventh grade so, 11 or 12.

[Garret]

After hating the weakness and ineffectiveness of parliamentary politics I became a Marxist at 13/14ish, gradually became Stalinist till I just became disillusioned to the Russophillia, revising and justifying the various regimes.

Gradually, at 15, I became dabbled with the more Libertarian currents of Marxism like Luxemburgism (Which I'm still influenced by) before becoming a straight-out Anarcho-Communist.

[graymouser]

I was 23, by a couple of months. I had been pretty right wing in high school but became more or less apolitical in college; I identified as Christian but had a strong sense of support for gay people no matter what the religion said. I remember mocking the Bush/Gore election, which gives you an idea of my age.

After college I lost my faith and became an outspoken atheist. I hated the Iraq war but hadn't protested it until after Abu Ghraib, which pretty much smashed my previous feelings about the US. I wound up joining the Socialist Party USA and getting involved in its left wing and also in Solidarity. I left both for Socialist Action after a couple of years, but didn't stay in at first because I was going through a lot of development intellectually and a lot of personal stuff, and I got sick of being in a two-man group in a town dominated by Workers World.

I joined the ISO, which in 6 months burnt the living hell out of me for the next two years. I nearly joined both the WIL and Socialist Alternative in '07 but decided against it because I disagree with them on too many things. I had some flirtation toward going back to SA in '08 but left for generally dumb reasons. In '09 I went back into Solidarity and stuck with it for a year just to prove that I could stay in an organization. Then I left and joined Workers Power, which sort of worked out all my ultra-leftism and purism in a few months, burned out and left. I'm back in Socialist Action, because frankly of all the groups I've ever been in, it's the one that I think is actually sane, democratic, and principled all at once.

The above doesn't really lay out how many swings of ideology I have been through. I have identified as a Debsian socialist, a Luxemburgist, tried to reconcile with Maoism*, I've been very close to a Grantite at a couple of points, I've been a Cliffite and whatever the hell you call Workers Power actively, I've read on left-Shachtmanism and I thought I was an anarchist for five minutes or so once. But mostly it was a contest between Hal Draper and James P. Cannon. In the end Cannon won out.

*Yeah, I figured out that if I were a Stalinist I'd probably get purged after the revolution and gave up on that one.

[Lanky Wanker]

S
I have from then on always disliked people who tries to express themselves thru alternative lifestyles. The syndicalists and anarchists looked like skinny punks, goth or synth-fans. And the leftists gave the look of complete muppets.
Both was rarely working class and would be complete aliens in a working class environment.

LOL it all comes with the image, man. Hence the Dead Kennedys' song Anarchy For Sale... sums it all up nicely. If you lived around Nazis and fascists, I assume you weren't down south?

[Lanky Wanker]

I've read on left-Shachtmanism and I thought I was an anarchist for five minutes or so once.

Five minutes? Damn, you must read real fast to have changed your mind that quickly. :rolleyes:

[Lanky Wanker]

As far as I can remember, I've always had ideas that can be considered Leftist, even as a kid,such as "Everyone should be treated fairly.", "Stealing from poor people is wrong.", "Stealing stuff from rich people and then helping the poor with it is good.", "War is bad.", "Helping people is good.", and the like. I first became political, however, somewhere about the age of fifteen. I've been around the block as far as ideologies go, being at one time or another a Democrat, a Libertarian (yes, the Randian kind. Not proud.), a Social Democrat, a Democratic Socialist, a Marxist-Leninist, a no-adjectives Communist, a Libertarian Communist, an Anarcho-Syndicalist, a Stirnerist, and an Anarcho-Communist, in roughly that order. Some positions lasted a few months and some a few years, and I've been an An-Com for a good many years (shall not date myself).

This is why I can never see myself getting any leftist tattoos... bit of an issue when I'm also one to change my mind all the time. :D

[L.A.P.]

Been an atheist social liberal all my life. I started searching for other ideologies when I realized I was too radical and rank-and-file Democrats didn't like my admiration of black nationalist leaders. That is what really made an always left-leaning person was the influence black nationalism had on me which in turn was because of my love of hip-hop. By 15, I discovered the actual definitions of socialism, communism, and anarchism. I also read about the leading figures of these ideologies. However, I wasn't ready to fully embrace it so I tried integrating some sort of fucked up "Marxist capitalism", then I watched Capitalism: A Love Story and decided to put an IWW and Marx-Engle-Lenin-Stalin-Mao picture on my corkboard the next day.

[thriller]

Been an atheist social liberal all my life. I started searching for other ideologies when I realized I was too radical and rank-and-file Democrats didn't like my admiration of black nationalist leaders. That is what really made an always left-leaning person was the influence black nationalism had on me which in turn was because of my love of hip-hop. By 15, I discovered the actual definitions of socialism, communism, and anarchism. I also read about the leading figures of these ideologies. However, I wasn't ready to fully embrace it so I tried integrating some sort of fucked up "Marxist capitalism", then I watched Capitalism: A Love Story and decided to put an IWW and Marx-Engle-Lenin-Stalin-Mao picture on my corkboard the next day.

Was Michael Moore's movie a wake up call to the problem or the solution for you? Cuz I always thought that movie was a little lacking in actual solutions and ideas on how to change our world (ie: destroy capitalism), but that was just my view.

[thriller]

This is why I can never see myself getting any leftist tattoos... bit of an issue when I'm also one to change my mind all the time. :D

I've got a hammer and sickle tattoo. I'm not a strict Leninist or Stalinist (hell I doubt like either, maybe Lenin a little). But I like it because then people think "wow, this kid ain't a whiny liberal, he wants real change and real revolution." And as I always say, I'm taking it back :)

[RedAnarchist]

When I was about 15/16/17, so about ten years ago now. I developed political views in my early teens, but didn't become leftist until I was 17, which was how old I was when I joined this site in 2003.

[Impulse97]

Well, I started out at 17 with random google searches on Socialism, which inevitably led me to the SPUSA a year later at 18. Over this past year (just passed my one year in the party) I've done most of my Marxist reading and such. Haven't really focused on one particular thinker, except perhaps Luxembourg. Aside from that, its been a mix of everything. I'm 19 now and was a firm Communist about six months after joining the SPUSA.

[28350]

Before I actually started reading Marx, which is what a lot of people (at least on this site) do, which is really dumb.

Don't read the Marxists, read Marx!

[graymouser]

Five minutes? Damn, you must read real fast to have changed your mind that quickly. :rolleyes:
Heh. Yeah, it was really a few weeks when I was new to the far left and got really het up on anarchism. Then I tried getting into actual anarchist thought and it really had nothing on Marxism for me. (My Marxism was a move from a very strict semi-Luxemburgist purism to a Draper-style semi-Trotskyism and eventually embracing Trotskyism full on.)

[Kornilios Sunshine]

This year. I am 14

[Fopeos]

Punk music got me interested in anarchism between 13 and 19. By 21 i was calling myself a commie. I'm still learning and am reluctant to adhere to an -ism. I want global socialist revolution and workers' control of MoP, just not sure who has the best program.

[thefinalmarch]

Fourteen. I was such a dumbfuck. My views were something to the tune of the Vatican is the most powerful capitalist institution, and all Americans are inherently reactionary, therefore they must be "taken care of" mercilessly.

What the actual fuck?

[FuzzypegX]

In the womb. My mother swallowed a copy of "Das Kapital" to give me a head start.

I'm winning now, right?

[Dumb]

Last year, when I was 22.
I come from a line of populist-minded Democrats. My mom's side of the family is complete Dust Bowler Okie stock, and my grandfather approaches Bernie Sanders-esque politics from the perspective of the old farm boy rightfully angry at the kings of the world. My mother is definitely her father's daughter, and had a solid run in the 1980s; in fact, the FBI has a file on her from her work in the 1980s protesting U.S. policy in El Salvador, Nicaragua and Guatemala. Despite these promising signs, however, there is a great deal of partisan loyalty to the Democratic Party (though strong signals of discontent with Obama).

So that's where I came from - me, the cranky liberal who wants a state to keep everybody (reasonably) in line (landlords, employers, criminals, etc.). College reinforced this tendency, while seasonal work as a janitor made me question whether or not my views were sufficient.

I then obtained my first non-seasonal, theoretically "permanent" job - one of those things where you plug numbers into a computer all day under constant surveillance. In such a setting, the mind can't help but wander, observing the workings of the surrounding system; thus, this fish finally discovered water. Specifically, I realized that the company employing me - as I imagine to be the case with 99.99% of all companies - operates as a mini-dictatorship, and that these dictatorships have more say over our lives than anything Congress ever does.

Meanwhile, I met two very, very different people online.

The first was a quirky Dutch lady, Ester, who attended some right-wing church. While I do not agree with a single religious belief she has yet expressed, I paid attention when she went off about the book of Revelation - religion was but a small corner of our friendship, so I tolerated the occasional rant. Anyway, she was talking about the mark of the beast, and how you'd need it to buy and sell; this gets the gears in my head moving, and I remember some Episcopal priest somewhere telling me that the work was apocalyptic eschatology written against the backdrop of the Roman Empire. Who was the beast? Caesar. What's Caesar's mark? His face on the coin. Gee, what does that sound like today? Money.

For this reason, I maintain an appreciation for Revelation on a purely metaphoric level, as it did get me thinking about money as a means of social control.

Then, on Thanksgiving last year, I encountered the human who would go on to become my Mentor in Communism - the one who made me realize that my observations and opinions regarding social structure and working life were, in fact, Marxist. She now resides in a psychiatric ward in Glasgow, last I heard.

[Luc]

Pretty soon I was printing out pamphlets and articles by Bakunin, Kropotkin, Bookchin, Chomsky, etc. , on the school computers, and then I became a full-fledged Anarchist.

haha fuck yeah! I'm doing that right now (15) but it costs so damn much for printing credits and takes forever.:lol:

to post above me, Epic story very well writtin /thumbsup

[Theoneontheleft]

I would say about age 19 or 20.

[eyeheartlenin]

I was 19, sophomore year at university; I had gone to the the big April anti Vietnam war demo in New York City, and it was enormous! And then, that summer, the YSA, a socialist youth group close to the SWP, gave a course which met on Saturdays, about their politics, and I joined them, because I thought the SWP represented Trotskyism. The first thing I remember reading was an article in the YSA's Young Socialist magazine, by Peter Camejo, in opposition to supporting the Democrats. That fall, I participated in the monster-sized antiwar march on the Pentagon. I remember it as a sunny day, and I sold copies of the Militant. If I remember correctly, Che's Bolivian diary had just been published in Ramparts magazine, which was exciting. Great days!

[Red Future]

16 really ..In retrospect I was one of those sort of teens that was rebellious in nature.I started off living with one of my parents who was a member of the British SWP in the 1980s (she is now deeply suspicious of leftwing politics in general).Nevertheless I was fed small fragments of left wing ideas in my childhood in retrospect.

Considered myself a social democrat (labour man) , my views at this time (15-16)were pretty fascistic actually, on the lines of a "patriotic socialism" and welfare state.Cheered Obama in 08 and put faith in a "good labour party" to save Britain.

Started to look into the far left in College.Partly from the Black Civil rights course and secondly from the "Che" films. Found the Black Panthers, then found Trotsky and the SWP .Read Socialist Worker ..avidly and then started to drift as I found Trotskyism deeply sectarian.Drifted for a while until I realized that Marxist-Leninism was the ideology that I most adhered too.I am a keen historian so I looked to its achievements and liked what I saw.

Now consider myself a moderate ML with some Maoist leanings.I refer to myself with others as a "scientific socialist".

[Lanky Wanker]

Interesting to hear how quite a few people actually went from right/far right all the way over to the far left. Gives me some degree of hope...

[Lanky Wanker]

Around seventh grade so, 11 or 12.

12?! Are we talking about just supporting basic leftist ideas or being a leftist bookworm and understanding it in detail?

[Tommy4ever]

I only began to seriously think about it at the age of 17. Before I was a Lib Dem. :p

[ColonelCossack]

When I was 11... maybe younger...

parental indoctrination ftw. :cool:

[Rusty Shackleford]

Moved to an agrarian town (Yuba City in case anyone was wondering) and having problems of my own(moving every year or so, family always broke), i started to get angry at things around me. Met some people, smoked a LOT of weed for a while. Stopped smoking so much weed and spent one winter break watching documentaries. A lot of them had to do with the wars and then throw in the 2008 crisis and recession happening while taking a government class in high school i really started to become curious.

around the time i was 17 was when shit went down ideologically.

ditched school one day with a few friends and ended up goign to the next town over after going out to the buttes and hanging out on an abandoned bridge. We ended up in a small bookstore and i was looking through the political philosophy section. And then, i saw it. A little beat up copy of the Communist Manifesto. I bought that shit then and there and was excited as fuck. This was the semester after government, so i was 'learning' economics. I decided instead to read the communist manifesto in class. I was kind of pretentious about it though, ill admit.

This was all during my senior year, 2-3 years ago. Ended up doing a presentation for my english class on 'people who changed the world/people who inspire you' and i did it on Marx. Did a presentation in my German class on something German. I did it on the DDR. got my professor to sing the DDR Anthem :lol: (she was very conservative but when she was studying in Heidelberg she went to the DDR for text books)

And then the last thing i had to do presentation wise was "what do i want to do" and i said then and there i wanted to become an activist and talked some stuff about the EZLN.

I was kind of a left-liberal for a long time and only until college did i consider myself something of an actual anarchist theoretically. During this whole process through highschool and college, i was having an internal debate on the merits on shit. I did lose sleep on some of it at some points in time. long story short, i ended up as a Leninist.


No one told me which way to go. Just, life led me to it. My experiences were leading up to this.

[RedAnarchist]

I only began to seriously think about it at the age of 17. Before I was a Lib Dem. :p

I was a Labour supporter myself at one point, although not by the time I was old enough to vote. My family have been Labour for generations - one of my relatives was a former Mayor of Preston and ran for election in the 1980s as a Labour candidate.

[Property Is Robbery]

11, so 7 years ago

[Sinred]

LOL it all comes with the image, man. Hence the Dead Kennedys' song Anarchy For Sale... sums it all up nicely. If you lived around Nazis and fascists, I assume you weren't down south?

Haha yeah. That time has its scars on my brain. I still cant talk to someone with dreadlocks without some part of me want to punch him in the face.
Im much better at it now thu.

Down south? No, in the middle of Sweden.
Or maybe i misinterpreted your question.

[Per Levy]

i think i was around 18 when i really got more into politics and much more left leaning + a "marxist newspaper" i've started to read around that time helped a little^^.

[Ele'ill]

In elementary school when I was very young an environmental group came in and did this assembly demo with huge sea turtle and whale puppets. I had always been interested in environmental issues as a child but as I got older and saw those same puppets on display at mass mobilizations opposing capitalism, coupled with the increasing resistance abroad to it through the 90's- I eventually started identifying as an anarchist simply based on the fact that I did not trust groups of people holding power over a majority (or simply over others) and that we had very little control over our own lives. Our lives are preplanned by the elite. We don't actually exist. It wasn't until I became older that I started acknowledging things such as identity politics and mental health which I regret because I believe that disconnect was harmful to me. I have gone through many year long spells of psychological disturbances where such insight and networked support would have saved me. Now I am in my late twenties and still learning.

[Blake's Baby]

About 9. I was advocating revolution in 1979 anyway. However I was a bit Guevaraist at that stage I suppose, I figured that a small revolutionary group would naturally attract poular support. I blame the Baader-Meinhof Gang, the prevelance of Che posters in the 1970s and the IRA (and I was like 9).

By the age of 11 I'd rejected Stalinism on the basis that it wasn't internationalist, but ended up a left-social democrat.

In my teens I came into contact with both Anarchism and Trotskyism. Both were very influential, I was an Anarchist for 20 years after that.

EDIT: I mean 20 years, I put 25 years originally. I meant, 25 years ago I came into contact with Anarchism and Trotskyism and spent 20 years as an Anarchist.

[Debaser]

I've always been on the Left Wing for most of my short life so far (I'm only 14). My parents are Leftists, my dad most of all, but they never agreed with Communism and are staunch what I'd describe Libertarian Socialists.

I had Leftist views drummed into me from birth and since I first heard of them always kind of looked up to Revolutionary heroes like Lenin, Guevara, James Connolly etc. However I wasn't a big fan of Communism until after joining the forum. Now I consider my self to be mainly M-L with parts of Anarchism thrown in.

[EvilRedGuy]

13-14. Immediately attracted to Anarcho-Communism for some reason. Also liked the concept of Technocracy after awhile.

[TelevisionIncarnate]

15, I was deeply attracted to the whole freedom concept and once I got my hands on the delicious Internet I immediately became an anarchist, gradually moved over to being more of a technocratic communist.

[Olentzero]

Must have been when I was around 16, so 25 years ago. I declared myself a Communist just to be contrarian because some of the other kids were making fun of me for teaching myself Russian. Another dude loaned me a copy of the Manifesto (thanks Rob, wherever you are) so I could get an idea of how bad it was; I read it during the next class and came out a budding marxist.

[#FF0000]

I remember growing up hella broke and my dad teachin me about history and freedom and the american revolution and I kept thinking "how can people be free when they are poor"

so the seeds were sown well before 11

[Lanky Wanker]

Haha yeah. That time has its scars on my brain. I still cant talk to someone with dreadlocks without some part of me want to punch him in the face.
Im much better at it now thu.

Down south? No, in the middle of Sweden.
Or maybe i misinterpreted your question.

Yeah, I meant down south in Sweden. My friend lives down there (Malmö) and it sounds like it's packed with Arabic and Eastern European immigrants, so I didn't think it'd be much of a fascist/Nazi area towards the south.

[Lanky Wanker]

Must have been when I was around 16, so 25 years ago. I declared myself a Communist just to be contrarian because some of the other kids were making fun of me for teaching myself Russian. Another dude loaned me a copy of the Manifesto (thanks Rob, wherever you are) so I could get an idea of how bad it was; I read it during the next class and came out a budding marxist.

Respect, brudda. :thumbup1:

[TheGodlessUtopian]

It all started when a school mate called me a communist when I was eight years old. I of course had no idea what the term meant at the time.

How does that happen though? How does an eight year old even know political terms?...well,I guess that is not surprsing as they know how to insult each other based on age,sexuality,gender,and physical features.

Why did he call you a communist though? What did you do?

[Bud Struggle]

I remember growing up hella broke and my dad teachin me about history and freedom and the american revolution and kept thinking "how can people be free when they are poor"

so the seeds were sown well before 11

True enough. For the ruling class the chains and whips just became unfashionable. They can get more money out of you by setting you "free" and saddleing you with credit card debt and car and house payments.

You are still picking massa's cotton out in his fields no different than before.

[#FF0000]

You are still picking massa's cotton out in his fields no different than before.

There was a book written by some dude way back called "Cannibals All!" which basically outlined how wage-workers in the North, in many ways, were all around worse off than slaves in the south, because wager workers were a dime a dozen and you could replace them easily. Slaves, on the other hand, were valuable in the same way good cattle is valuable.

Of course, this dude was trying to justify slavery, and so ignored the obvious things that make slavery horrific, but regardless he pointed out everything dehumanizing and barbaric about wage labor.

[Bud Struggle]

Oh slavery was of course worse than things up North--but really plain old Capitalism is also better for Capitalists than slavery was.

So freeing the slaves was a win-win situation for the Bourgeois.

[Seth]

Before I could even pull the skin back. :cool:

[OHumanista]

What was it like being raised by a communist? I mean that like...would you say it was considerably different compared to what you hear about non-communists?

In case you read this or any others (yeah I forgot bout this thread :D)

It was quite different(from what I can see of non-commie parents). From a very early age(even my with childish tendency to "rebel" ideologically) I was very much aware of class struggle (basics), and never really managed to get sucked into consumism, and the idea of proving you're better and showing off. When I saw wealthy and excess I was disgusted by it not attracted to it. Then when people saw a protest or a riot and comdemned I quickly jumped to defend it. I also grew hearing about and admiring socialist thinkers and revolutionaries (and always being remembered not to idolise anyone too much). Nationalism was never an issue for me as I was always told nations were artificial things and that being proud of them was being proud of an accident of birth.

I think it created a "shield" around me in a way. I see childs all the time asking their parents to buy something they saw on a TV add. Which is something I never even thought of doing because since early dad explained it all to me.(as best as he could for my age)

Then of course it was VERY tolerant environment to grow up with, though that can happen in a non-communist family. I never had prejudices(race, gender, sexuality...) as my father explained they were just a way to blame someone(despite my racist town). And dad was also atheist and raised me without any sort of religion education, when I first heard of christian myths I found them stupid. (no offense to our christian members)

If there was one bad side however is that my conciousness alienated me from other kids. I spoke too much of history, philosophy, sociology and politics. They thought I was "weird", "mean", "crazy" or just a "smartass" or just boring(I would probably be for kids :D) So I ended up maturing way faster than normal.

Still, can't say I regret paying the price. I'd rather have a few quality friends than live in ignorance and fear. :)

[Rooster]

Ah, I still remember my father reading my Capital at bed time and then tucking in my Lenin bedsheets and making sure my Trotsky teddy bear wasn't too hot from the dryer.

Seriously though, I was about 21 or 22 when I started identifying myself as a communist. Maybe younger but that's the earliest concrete time I can remember being asked about it.

[Olentzero]

Yeah, I meant down south in Sweden. My friend lives down there (Malmö) and it sounds like it's packed with Arabic and Eastern European immigrants, so I didn't think it'd be much of a fascist/Nazi area towards the south.Malmö and Skåne (the county where Malmö is located) are crawling with right-wing racists and bigots. The Sweden Democrat party (far-right anti-immigrant bastards with continued ties to the fascist movements) got a lot of support in the 2010 parliamentary election there. I'm guessing you don't speak Swedish, but if you go here (http://www.val.se/val/val2010/slutresultat/R/rike/index.html) and click on the three Skåne links in the column at left you can see how well the SD did in 2010 compared with 2006.

Of course the SD are falling apart politically now and if a new parliamentary election were held today they'd probably lose most or all of their seats. But still, us here on the Swedish radical left need to keep a sharp eye on them and their skinhead compatriots.

EDIT: Actually if you scroll down that page to the 'Röstfördelning per riksdagsvalkrets' (Share of votes by parliamentary district) section and click on the SD column to sort by percentage of votes, you'll see that the top five places go to Skåne county, Blekinge county, and Malmö. Blekinge is the other southernmost county in Sweden just west of Skåne and - as noted earlier - Malmö is in Skåne. So that should give you a better idea of what's going on down there with the racists and fascists.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I was about 16 or so when I started developing interest in politics. I immediately got interested in leftist ideologies, but I have changed my views several times since then. I think I'm pretty set in what I believe now though, at last.

[The Jay]

12 then i went right then at 18 i went back left

[Zukunftsmusik]

15 or so. I met a new friend in school (we became friends because he saw that I supported Palestine) who complained on how our history books were capitalist propaganda (well... at least they were quite clearly against communism), and I saw that he was right. I actually called myself a communist back then, then I became insecure for a while (who haven't been) and denied when people asked if i was a commie and said socialist instead. Then the last year or so I started looking into philosophy and political theory and read the manifesto, other texts by Marx, Marxist essays etc. So now I consider myself a communist but haven't found any tendency, or decided if I even need one. I'm 18 now. I have grown up in a quite socialist-leaning liberal family, so I haven't been frozen out or anything for my political beliefs.

[kapitalyst]

When I was about 16 or 17... I was on my own, flat broke after paying my rent, working in a crappy warehouse, taking care of my little brother and blaming everyone else for my problems. Then I realized it was a big crock of crap, took responsibility for my own life and destiny and got out of there quickly instead of waiting on someone to save me.

[#FF0000]

When I was about 16 or 17... I was on my own, flat broke after paying my rent, working in a crappy warehouse, taking care of my little brother and blaming everyone else for my problems. Then I realized it was a big crock of crap, took responsibility for my own life and destiny and got out of there quickly instead of waiting on someone to save me.

wow i bet it is just that easy for everyone on the planet too isn't it!

[kapitalyst]

wow i bet it is just that easy for everyone on the planet too isn't it!

No, my over-simplified post might make it sound "easy", but it certainly wasn't. It took a lot of time and trial and error. A lot of blood, sweat and tears (literally and figuratively). It took me refusing to listen to those who said I would fail and the game couldn't be won. It took a revolution of thought taking place in my own head.

When you overcome internal defeatism, you can accomplish your goals (as long as they aren't something stupid and over-the-top). You show me someone who thinks they're stuck in the mud of social class, and I'll show you someone who isn't considering all their options. I, myself, became disabled in my late teen years and still suffer from severe chronic pain. But even that didn't stop me. Nor did the deaths of my loved ones, the loss of everything I owned and one of the most terrible situations imaginable.

I'm not better than anyone else. You can do what I have done too! And the really awesome part is that you can use your money and knowledge to help other people who have it worse than you did.

[Bud Struggle]

When I was about 16 or 17... I was on my own, flat broke after paying my rent, working in a crappy warehouse, taking care of my little brother and blaming everyone else for my problems. Then I realized it was a big crock of crap, took responsibility for my own life and destiny and got out of there quickly instead of waiting on someone to save me.

Good for you. I was never on my own, but I started my first business when I was around 16. Printing cards for funerals. For a bit of cleverness and a bit of hard work--I made a lot (relatively) of money. I never looked back.

Yup, no one's going to save you. You have to do it yourself.

[RGacky3]

Yup, no one's going to save you. You have to do it yourself.

Thats the Leftist message all the way, if Capitalism aint treating you right, fight back, thats the main message of syndicalism, your boss aint paying right? Not treating you fair? Get the workers together and force him too.

[SHORAS]

mid 20s

[#FF0000]

No, my over-simplified post might make it sound "easy", but it certainly wasn't. It took a lot of time and trial and error. A lot of blood, sweat and tears (literally and figuratively). It took me refusing to listen to those who said I would fail and the game couldn't be won. It took a revolution of thought taking place in my own head.

When you overcome internal defeatism, you can accomplish your goals (as long as they aren't something stupid and over-the-top). You show me someone who thinks they're stuck in the mud of social class, and I'll show you someone who isn't considering all their options. I, myself, became disabled in my late teen years and still suffer from severe chronic pain. But even that didn't stop me. Nor did the deaths of my loved ones, the loss of everything I owned and one of the most terrible situations imaginable.

I'm not better than anyone else. You can do what I have done too! And the really awesome part is that you can use your money and knowledge to help other people who have it worse than you did.

So, if every single person on the planet did like you, they'd all be relatively well-off then, you think?

[molotovcocktail]

When i at an age of 14 read that a billion people live in extreme poverty despite we over-produce food.:crying:

[kapitalyst]

So, if every single person on the planet did like you, they'd all be relatively well-off then, you think?

No. Because much of the world has never embraced individual liberty and free enterprise, and they do not have the markets and opportunities that we have. You can't be a stock broker or computer programmer living in the jungle. The people I believe have legitimate reasons for being poor are those who live in the poverty of the 3rd world and people who are severely handicapped, very ill or mentally handicapped and the elderly. Those are the people I have the most compassion for.

If everyone in developed capitalist countries like the US did what I do, then yes, they could become wealthy. I could make you wealthy. Yes, I could indeed teach you. Problem is, most people don't want to listen. They defeat themselves mentally before they even try... "I'm too dumb", "I'm too poor", "I'm beyond hope", "I don't have the time"... And to a lot of people, being "right" is more important to them than succeeding. I even see this in people who already have a fair amount of money which they should protect and invest, but they won't...

[Per Levy]

No. Because much of the world has never embraced individual liberty and free enterprise, and they do not have the markets and opportunities that we have. You can't be a stock broker or computer programmer living in the jungle. The people I believe have legitimate reasons for being poor are those who live in the poverty of the 3rd world and people who are severely handicapped, very ill or mentally handicapped and the elderly. Those are the people I have the most compassion for.

so everyone who doesnt fall in your category of being poor can go starve because they're to dumb/lazy/and what not? i know several poor people from the usa, and none of them were lazy or dumb, most of them didnt even had a chance, many of them worked 2 or 3 jobs in order to just stay afloat and still the system fucked them over and they got homeless or they got ill and everything they saved was gone right away. but hey they're just dumb and lazy, right?


If everyone in developed capitalist countries like the US did what I do, then yes, they could become wealthy. I could make you wealthy. Yes, I could indeed teach you. Problem is, most people don't want to listen. They defeat themselves mentally before they even try... "I'm too dumb", "I'm too poor", "I'm beyond hope", "I don't have the time"... And to a lot of people, being "right" is more important to them than succeeding. I even see this in people who already have a fair amount of money which they should protect and invest, but they won't...

are you trying to tell us that everyone in the usa could be rich? everyone if they just do what you have to say? i mean how would that work exactly? i mean if everyone is rich, who is doing all the shitty jobs then? who is doing all the worker jobs? who will stand in the fields and harvest? or would you just ship all the poor from the third world, the ones you have so much compassion for, to do all the dirty work, doing all the productive work?

[Jake14]

Around 17, I come from a very conservative family and upbringing. Being a member of the lower class, to a near impoverished level. Therefore could relate a lot. Read a ton of leftist theory books, a friend referred me to revleft and here I am today.

[#FF0000]

words

So if everyone in America did like you, they'd all be rich.

Who would run the gas stations?

I mean on an individual level, workin hard and making the right choices (hard as that is to tell sometimes) might get you somewhere but the fact is that capitalism needs an underclass. So regardless of how easy it is for some people to make it, it doesn't change the fact that it is literally impossible for everyone to.

And you don't need to teach me anything. I could probably wreck your shit in any management sim w/ eyes closed. Railroad Tycoon, Capitalism: Deluxe, OpenTTD, Recettear -- your call kid. TIME AND DATE.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Can't forget the old libertarian favorite that to eat poor people could just visit churches and soup kitchens. :rolleyes:

[Revolution starts with U]

Railroad Tycoon :tt1:

[Seth]

No. Because much of the world has never embraced individual liberty and free enterprise, and they do not have the markets and opportunities that we have. You can't be a stock broker or computer programmer living in the jungle. The people I believe have legitimate reasons for being poor are those who live in the poverty of the 3rd world and people who are severely handicapped, very ill or mentally handicapped and the elderly. Those are the people I have the most compassion for.

If everyone in developed capitalist countries like the US did what I do, then yes, they could become wealthy. I could make you wealthy. Yes, I could indeed teach you. Problem is, most people don't want to listen. They defeat themselves mentally before they even try... "I'm too dumb", "I'm too poor", "I'm beyond hope", "I don't have the time"... And to a lot of people, being "right" is more important to them than succeeding. I even see this in people who already have a fair amount of money which they should protect and invest, but they won't...

Are you sending me those "get rich in a year if you buy my book" emails? Stop it. I thought like you just a short while ago, and now I can see it's the real load of crap.

[kapitalyst]

so everyone who doesnt fall in your category of being poor can go starve because they're to dumb/lazy/and what not? i know several poor people from the usa, and none of them were lazy or dumb, most of them didnt even had a chance, many of them worked 2 or 3 jobs in order to just stay afloat and still the system fucked them over and they got homeless or they got ill and everything they saved was gone right away. but hey they're just dumb and lazy, right?


C'mon, don't bullshit me... that's not even what I said.

Who's starving in the United States? You can bum a freakin dollar off someone and get a cheeseburger if you were actually starving. I simply do not ever see all these miserable, starving people wandering the streets you're talking about. And I live in a district notorious for its low levels of income...

The people who are the worst off are drug addicts. Around here, it's crack heads. And we treat them like the scum of the earth in this country -- like lepers in Biblical times. Even though their plight is their own fault, I still feel bad for them and have a heart. The one who's the worst off is an old man they call Winfield. I cannot tell you how many times I've given Winfield something to eat, picked him up out of the rain (even though he smells something awful :crying:), given him clean clothes, found him odd jobs to do... I do still care about stupid people who've done stupid things. Problem is, if I gave old Winfield $100k to start a business, he would blow it all on crack. All I can do for him is make sure he's got food, clothing and other necessities. And it's not me oppressing Winfield... it's not even the drug dealers... it's himself...



are you trying to tell us that everyone in the usa could be rich? everyone if they just do what you have to say? i mean how would that work exactly? i mean if everyone is rich, who is doing all the shitty jobs then? who is doing all the worker jobs? who will stand in the fields and harvest? or would you just ship all the poor from the third world, the ones you have so much compassion for, to do all the dirty work, doing all the productive work?

If I wrote a practical book on how to succeed in the financial world and markets and it sold 1,000,000 copies, only a handful of people would half-ass listen and have moderate success... and probably less than 10 people would really take it to heart and be a resounding success.

But... You're right, Per... If everyone got wealthier, who would do the shitty jobs like shoveling coal into steam engines, picking seeds from cotton, or digging canals by hand? ;)

You've stepped right into a commie trap, my friend. If work is not a requirement to meet your needs and wants, then who is going to do all the shitty jobs? The people the government points their guns at? Oh, we didn't think that through did we? :rolleyes:

[kapitalyst]

So if everyone in America did like you, they'd all be rich.

FF0000... Is it alright if I call you 16,711,680? ;) ...

Depends on what you call rich. No two people have the same definition. I call "rich" (financially) as having all your needs met, the ability to obtain a reasonable amount of your reasonable wants, financial security and little or no debt. It's being content with your financial and material situation.

To that I would say: Yes. The way I've done things is not "magic", or some secret cultist rituals. In fact, you're sitting right in front of one of your greatest resources: your window to the world and portal to education.

Are you poor? Are you unhappy with your financial and material situation? If so, let's get you sorted out and on your way. And no, it's not going to be easy. It's going to be tough, and you'll probably cry a few times along the way (not ashamed to admit that I did). But if you don't believe in yourself, then don't bother. You've already ensured your own failure.



Who would run the gas stations?


Who do you think?



I mean on an individual level, workin hard and making the right choices (hard as that is to tell sometimes) might get you somewhere but the fact is that capitalism needs an underclass.

Lol... Socialism and communism doesn't have an underclass? One called: everyone? :laugh:



So regardless of how easy it is for some people to make it, it doesn't change the fact that it is literally impossible for everyone to.


Are you still trying to say I had it easy? No offense, but you haven't a clue what you're talking about... It's not "impossible" for everyone to do damn well. But is everyone going to actually do it? No.



And you don't need to teach me anything. I could probably wreck your shit in any management sim w/ eyes closed. Railroad Tycoon, Capitalism: Deluxe, OpenTTD, Recettear -- your call kid. TIME AND DATE.

Yeah... We all know that playing video games and computer sims is the way to make it. How old are you? :rolleyes:

I beg to differ though. Those little games are easy as taking a shit after a bottle of laxatives. They are fun though! :lol:

As a matter of fact, I bought Tropico IV tonight at Walmart!!! I can't wait to create my capitalist utopia!!! :cool:

@ Seth:

The way to financial success is not "get rich quick schemes", as you already know. And I don't advocate such things. They're a great way to waste money you probably need pretty badly.

[Seth]

Haha I'm just saying, you talk the talk.

PUT YOUR MIND TO IT AND IT SHALL HAPPEN! WILLPOWER111

[RGacky3]

FF0000... Is it alright if I call you 16,711,680? http://www.revleft.com/vb/age-did-you-t161477/revleft/smilies/wink.gif ...

Depends on what you call rich. No two people have the same definition. I call "rich" (financially) as having all your needs met, the ability to obtain a reasonable amount of your reasonable wants, financial security and little or no debt. It's being content with your financial and material situation.

To that I would say: Yes. The way I've done things is not "magic", or some secret cultist rituals. In fact, you're sitting right in front of one of your greatest resources: your window to the world and portal to education.

Are you poor? Are you unhappy with your financial and material situation? If so, let's get you sorted out and on your way. And no, it's not going to be easy. It's going to be tough, and you'll probably cry a few times along the way (not ashamed to admit that I did). But if you don't believe in yourself, then don't bother. You've already ensured your own failure.


So everyone could be traders and be rich !!!! Yeah.

God Bless America.


Lol... Socialism and communism doesn't have an underclass? One called: everyone? :laugh:

¨
hmm, I live in Norway, not socialist, but much more socialistic than most, and there is'nt really an underclass here (not even close to American standards), and in Germany, where they have limited workers democracy , workers do much much better.


Are you still trying to say I had it easy? No offense, but you haven't a clue what you're talking about... It's not "impossible" for everyone to do damn well. But is everyone going to actually do it? No.


No, I'm sure it was very diffucult to learn to be a successful trader, but that does'nt mean that everyone can do it, because guess what, traders rely on the real economy.

Look, I'm sure you have a success story, I'm sure in feudalism there was some peasant that worked hard bought his freedom, and ended up being a very important noble controlling a huge fiefdom, maybe even King, but it would be stupid for him to say to all the peasants "just try hard and all of you can be a king too."

[El Louton]

I was interested in the Soviet Union around 8 and discovered Communism at 11 but only declared myself Commie this year. Before I was a Labourite.

[#FF0000]

Are you still trying to say I had it easy? No offense, but you haven't a clue what you're talking about... It's not "impossible" for everyone to do damn well. But is everyone going to actually do it? No.

Nope, because like I said, capitalism requires hierarchy and requires people to be broke, in debt, and working horrible jobs.

[Seth]

Nope, because like I said, capitalism requires hierarchy and requires people to be broke, in debt, and working horrible jobs.

This quote is probably the most important one in the whole series because it says so much about the real world.


These sad saps. They come to Rapture thinking they're gonna be captains of industry, but they all forget that somebody's gotta scrub the toilets.

[kapitalyst]

Nope, because like I said, capitalism requires hierarchy and requires people to be broke, in debt, and working horrible jobs.

Right... so no one has to scrub doo-doo off the toilets in Commieland? Those shit jobs just go undone or cease to exist? Or is the solution an appointed underclass or shared misery?

Btw... I guess you didn't get my hexadecimal joke! :lol:

[#FF0000]

Right... so no one has to scrub doo-doo off the toilets in Commieland? Those shit jobs just go undone or cease to exist? Or is the solution an appointed underclass or shared misery?

Oh, there's things one can do. Rotation of these dumb horrible jobs is one. But the difference is that people who clean toilets aren't gonna be powerless and will have a share of the power.


Btw... I guess you didn't get my hexadecimal joke! :lol:

You called me blue :(

[Bud Struggle]

Right... so no one has to scrub doo-doo off the toilets in Commieland? Those shit jobs just go undone or cease to exist? Or is the solution an appointed underclass or shared misery?

All thought out Comrade! They will have ass wiping robots to to all of those jobs. All the PRoletariat has to do in the future is write poetery and eat vegin.

[Bud Struggle]

Nope, because like I said, capitalism requires hierarchy and requires people to be broke, in debt, and working horrible jobs.

Granted it works that way now--but there s no requirement.

[Savior]

in about 6th grade i was something of a facist (only because i had a fetish with the military). i never rooted for the americans though...Anyway. About the begging of ninth grade (im in tenth now) i started reading marxist theory and soon i considered myself a communist (i still had reformist sentimtalties though) soon all those were rooted out and here i am a Liberarian communist. i spend a few hours a day (on average, i do have a life) or whenever im bored on this website and on the internet learning more about all forms of socialism (revoutionary that is) Ive always been an Athiest, and have always been against sexism, homophobia, and racism. Im sill doing me best to stop using the word gay as a term for something bad. Its this culture i live in.

[#FF0000]

Granted it works that way now--but there s no requirement.

Can you name a time in history where it hasn't?

[Robert]

Right... so no one has to scrub doo-doo off the toilets in Commieland? Those shit jobs just go undone or cease to exist?Why'd you go from "doo-doo" to "shit" in the same sentence?

Anyway, you need to know that there are two basic kinds of revolutionary leftists: 1) anarchists; and 2) marxist-leninists. There are a hundred sub-genres of each, as someone will complain here in a minute.

Both believe in the revolutionary overthrow of capitalism. But there's a big difference:

Anarchists basically believe in everyone lying around all day doin' what they want -- smokin' whacko-tobacco, shaving, playing "Smash the Fash" all day on the computer, whatever. No government, no cops. Nobody tells you what to do. Imagine. It's easy if you try.

Here are representative explanations from the Learning Forum:

Anarchism is a political theory which aims to create anarchy, "the absence of a master, of a sovereign." [P-J Proudhon, What is Property , p. 264] In other words, anarchism is a political theory which aims to create a society within which individuals freely co-operate together as equals. As such anarchism opposes all forms of hierarchical control - be that control by the state or capitalist - as harmful to the individual and their individuality as well as unnecessary ....

Certain groups like anarchists consider vanguard parties a bad thing because they believe that is presupposes that the masses are too stupid to liberate themselves from capitalism ....

Long before Lenin rose to power, Mikhail Bakunin warned the followers of Marx against the "Red bureaucracy" that would institute "the worst of all despotic governments" if Marx's state-socialist ideas were ever implemented. Indeed, the works of Stirner, Proudhon and especially Bakunin all predict the horror of state Socialism with great accuracy.

Marxist-Leninists,on the other hand, believe in a vanguard party lying around all day doing what its members want -- smokin' whacko-tobacco, shaving, and playing "Smash the Fash" all day on the computer, whatever.

If you aren't vanguard, don't worry. The vanguard will find things for you to do. And do them, you will. Or else.

Here's an explanation from the Learning Forum, so don't anybody say I made it up:

Vanguard parties are political organizations of the most advanced and "resolute" [meaning you kinda force your way in] members of the proletariat as well as of the intelligentsia. The purpose of them is to prepare for and execute revolution. Of course, this is far too simplistic, and you should research the subject more yourself. In [the writer's] opinion, proletarian revolution is impossible without a vanguard party that can unite the working class ... into one revolutionary movement that sets its sights on the seizure of power.

Here's more:

Ah, but who decides those things? Under capitalism, the market decides...with disastrous consequences for most people. Presumably under a Leninist-Trotskyist version of "socialism", the party would decide. http://www.revleft.com/vb/making-sense-anarchism-t6416/index.html

(Are we learning yet? :))

So, under anarchism, if you want a clean toilet, you need to carry a scrub brush and a can of Ajax with you at all times. I ain't gonna do it for you. And cause I don't have to and you can't make me. And there won't be no cops either. The good part is that you don't have to clean up after yourself. I'll have my own brush and Ajax, see?

Under Marxism-Leninism, I'll clean the toilets. Or get shot. By the vanguard.

[Искра]

With 12, but I read Bakunin and Proudhon when I was like 14. I couldn't understand a shit and Bakunin pissed me of with that fucking Bismarck...

[kapitalyst]

Thank you, Robert! Now it's much clearer what they want.

Robert:
"Why'd you go from "doo-doo" to "shit" in the same sentence?"

Because I have style, Robert... I have mad style... :cool:

So anyway, to get prepared for the anarcho-communist revolution, I need to get a backpack full of Ajax, toilet scrubs and toilet paper -- I'm assuming toilet paper, because some jackass would surely piss all over the roll in the bathrooms, right? Check... Heading to Walmart now! :lol:

But I also wanna be prepared for the authoritarian-communist revolution, because you never know which one the proles are going to go for... For this, I'm thinking I'll need to prepare for a long stint in the gulags, till the evil capitalist west destroys our master plans for utopia... So I'll need vaseline and cellophane to hide things up my, erm... That's about all I can think of. I would just grab my AK and "roll with the proles", and try to become an inner-party member. But why bother? I'd be dead quicker that way! Silenced for the crime of thought -- BOOM! :laugh:

[Crux]

I don't know about you, kapitalyst, but I clean my own toilet.

As for when I became a leftist, probably around 13/14, 9/11 and the ensuing Iraq and Afghanistan wars certainly had an effect, as well as the public employee union strike of 05 (I think it was). Plus my parents are leftist, basically, mom's in the SAC (anarcho-syndicalist union) vut dad's is actually better politically. But I think growing up with my mostly unemployed mom helped.

[~Spectre]

When I was 5 I asked my father "why do people use money when we can just make stuff and then you give people the stuff you make and they give you the stuff they make if you want it?"

He told me that was communism and would never work, though I don't recall finding his arguments particularly persuasive then, either.

[kapitalyst]

I don't know about you, kapitalyst, but I clean my own toilet.

Lol! We were joking. It was one of your comrades who brought up the issue of people cleaning toilets. We just elaborated. :lol:

@ Spectre:

Yeah, most 5-year-olds believe in Santa Claus too. ;)

[Robert]

When I was 5 I asked my father "why do people use money when we can just make stuff and then you give people the stuff you make and they give you the stuff they make if you want it?"

Your dad was right. He probably understood too that it's hard to engage in simple barter across great distances with total strangers. One wants a medium of exchange, namely money. It saves you the trouble of personally carrying your chickens all the way from France to Indonesia just to swap them for a little nutmeg and vice versa.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

My late teens.