"dangerous new phase" says IMF

[Threetune]

“The global economy has entered a "dangerous new phase" of sharply lower growth, according to the International Monetary Fund (IMF).
The organisation warned that continuing political and economic woes in the US and eurozone could force them back into recession.
The IMF says the prognosis for economies in the developed world is "weak and bumpy expansion".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14984087 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14984087)



And Marxism-Leninism understands and has been saying consistently, that this ongoing and worsening economic crisis of overproduction is at the root of degenerate capitalist imperialist warmongering and the only ‘answer’ is the dictatorship of the proletariat. All ‘left’ and pacifist reforms are wishful thinking and dangerously counter revolutionary.

[Art Vandelay]

“The global economy has entered a "dangerous new phase" of sharply lower growth, according to the International Monetary Fund (IMF).
The organisation warned that continuing political and economic woes in the US and eurozone could force them back into recession.
The IMF says the prognosis for economies in the developed world is "weak and bumpy expansion".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14984087 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14984087)



And Marxism-Leninism understands and has been saying consistently, that this ongoing and worsening economic crisis of overproduction is at the root of degenerate capitalist imperialist warmongering and the only ‘answer’ is the dictatorship of the proletariat. All ‘left’ and pacifist reforms are wishful thinking and dangerously counter revolutionary.

Yes all who do not hail glorious Stalin are counter revolutionary rats. Line them against the wall. Or grab some ice picks :trotski:

[Threetune]

Yes all who do not hail glorious Stalin are counter revolutionary rats. Line them against the wall. Or grab some ice picks :trotski:


And in the process of the struggle for better revolutionary theory about this bloody capitalist crisis the idiocies of the anarchist, Stalinist and Trotskyist will be easily exposed as the above crass crap from rosario above demonstrates. Try and do better, capitalism is heading for inter- imperialist war.

[Art Vandelay]

And in the process of the struggle for better revolutionary theory about this bloody capitalist crisis the idiocies of the anarchist, Stalinist and Trotskyist will be easily exposed as the above crass crap from rosario above demonstrates. Try and do better, capitalism is heading for inter- imperialist war.

Yeah cause the struggle for better revolutionary theory begins with you deeming all other opinions other than your own as counter revolutionary. :rolleyes:

[svenne]

Best. ML parody. Ever.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

“The global economy has entered a "dangerous new phase" of sharply lower growth, according to the International Monetary Fund (IMF).
The organisation warned that continuing political and economic woes in the US and eurozone could force them back into recession.
The IMF says the prognosis for economies in the developed world is "weak and bumpy expansion".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14984087 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14984087)



And Marxism-Leninism understands and has been saying consistently, that this ongoing and worsening economic crisis of overproduction is at the root of degenerate capitalist imperialist warmongering and the only ‘answer’ is the dictatorship of the proletariat. All ‘left’ and pacifist reforms are wishful thinking and dangerously counter revolutionary.

Its important to discuss the crisis as much as possible right now. Can we keep our dead Russian friends at home and minimize the sectarianism?

We;re obviously in for a "double dip" but are we entering an "official" depression? When will Greece default and what will be the reaction ?

Is it a crisis of "over production" or more of over-acumulation of capital (leading to over production)?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

3tune has to be the least coherent advocate for Marxist-Leninism on this forum. All he does is say anything other than Marxist-Leninist dogma is reactionary and dangerous and that events confirm this without any explanation or even moderately helpful critique of other ideological perspectives. He's like a pope with a hammer and a sickle at the top of his staff instead of a cross and a giant painting of Lenin which he prays to every night for proper theoretical guidance. I don't like flaming people but he's clearly out of line the way he tries to open anything he says with a bold sectarian attack, and it makes it worse that he himself offers no real useful theory or explanation of why theory is relevant to a particular circumstance.

The double dip recession looks more and more likely with the recent troubles in Italy. Greece may have to lay off a lot of state workers too, roughly 80,000 more than the first estimate, which will be a travesty but could be fuel to the fire as far as the protest movement is concerned, and might motivate people to deepen the struggle against their government. The bbc isn't loading and so I can't provide a source on that but I think I read it there. What I want to know is if the Troika and Greek government knew that the cuts would not actually prevent a default to begin with if thats what ends up happening.

[Threetune]

It’s ‘overproduction’ of capital itself of course.

[Le Socialiste]

And Marxism-Leninism understands and has been saying consistently, that this ongoing and worsening economic crisis of overproduction is at the root of degenerate capitalist imperialist warmongering and the only ‘answer’ is the dictatorship of the proletariat. All ‘left’ and pacifist reforms are wishful thinking and dangerously counter revolutionary.


And in the process of the struggle for better revolutionary theory about this bloody capitalist crisis the idiocies of the anarchist, Stalinist and Trotskyist will be easily exposed as the above crass crap from rosario above demonstrates. Try and do better, capitalism is heading for inter- imperialist war.

I'm seriously growing sick of this "prolier than thou" bullshit. Quit looking like someone who just read "The State and Revolution", grow the fuck up, and realize your position isn't the sole authority when it comes to revolutionary leftism.

...ahem...

*rant over*

The IMF has been issuing numerous warnings over the steady decline in economic growth throughout the last couple of years. There is a significant number of the global elite who are troubled by the rise in worker dissatisfaction and militancy, the most pointed of which has erupted in areas most affected by deep-cutting austerity measures. At the same time, an international front made up of the world's financial and political elite is becoming increasingly unattainable as regional and national divisions set in and individual governments grow ever more protectionist in their outlook. One of the historically classic examples has been the disunity of European capital and its divergent interests (both material and geopolitical) in the face of conflict and instability. As tensions rise over the unspoken failure of the EU, European states will grow increasingly aggressive in their pursuit of attaining political and financial security, stepping on the toes of others in the process. The downside, of course, is the utilization and manipulation of human capital, as well as further division and alienation within the international working-class as nations begin the process of turning worker against worker.

[Rafiq]

Minus the "Marxism Leninism part" I see no reason to disagree with the OP's post regarding the answer to all of this.

The Reformists are counter revolutionary traitors.

[Rafiq]

It’s ‘overproduction’ of capital itself of course.

My friend, it's a hell of a lot more than that.

[Ocean Seal]

What you wrote


And Marxism-Leninism understands and has been saying consistently, that this ongoing and worsening economic crisis of overproduction is at the root of degenerate capitalist imperialist warmongering and the only ‘answer’ is the dictatorship of the proletariat. All ‘left’ and pacifist reforms are wishful thinking and dangerously counter revolutionary.


What I think that it should be:


And Marxism understands and has been saying consistently, that this ongoing and worsening economic crisis of overproduction is at the root of degenerate capitalist imperialist warmongering and the only ‘answer’ is the dictatorship of the proletariat. All ‘left’ and pacifist reforms are useful in approaching the revolutionary situation and raising class consciousness, but ultimately we will require a revolution to get out of these crises.

[the last donut of the night]

My friend, it's a hell of a lot more than that.

what is it then? (curious)

[Klaatu]

The big picture is this: The capitalist wealthy class is (and has been for years) stealing most of the wealth, leaving the proletariat with little or nothing. When the masses have little wealth and money to spend, the world economy suffers.

For example, suppose the top 1% owns 99% of the wealth, and the bottom 99% owns 1% of the wealth. This makes for a very weak world economy, because a small number of people consume only so much (the rich can only eat so much food and so use much energy, etc. (They can only heat their houses so hot or get so fat) That is, the major world aggregate consumption is too low because the masses must just survive at subsistence levels.

Contrast this with a world economy where everyone is paid a high wage (no rich and no poor) the collective consumption of seven billion people raises the world's economic activity to unprecedented levels. This is because there would be no more hogging and hoarding by the elite few.

More consumers = more work done = more prosperity.

Quite simply, communism/socialism will lift the world economy to levels of prosperity yet unheard of.

It's really simple math: more people working for high wages = high collective living standard.

No complicated economics lessons here; it's basically that simple.

_

[Lenina Rosenweg]

This is partly true but overall its an "under consumptionist" argument. The capitalists always "steal" from the workers, its the accumulation of surplus value inherent in capitalism.This is the explanation of the periodic business cycles inherent in capitalism.With all due respect, what we are facing now is more complicated than that.There are structural reasons why the capitalists are not paying workers more.Paying workers more gives the working class more power over the capitalists. With globalization developing countries, China, India, the BRICs have "gone online" greatly enlarging the global working class and depressing wages.Profitable investment opportunities are not opening up and finance capital has greatly expanded its reach and power.The unique situation prevailing up until the early 70s, when the US was the unchallenged global economic hegemon, are gone.

Capitalism is facing a multi-faceted crisis which requires a multi-faceted explanation.David Harvey and Hillel Tiktin have both had interesting analysis of the crisis which they see essentially as the result of an over-accumulation of capital.

[Delenda Carthago]

Advises that I hope someone would give me 2 years ago:

1. STUDY ECONOMICS. Seriously. Its the no1 priority for the revolutionaries to understand what the fuck is up. If you dont know what is happening, you will never act towards a positive direction.

2. Step your game up. Understand the historical point that we live in. Act like it. Stop wasting your time with things that are irrelevant to it. Things that may even look quite important for the revolutionary cause, start to question it. Class struggle and economics are what its all about.

3. Inform people. There is a shitload of propaganda around the world about the crisis. Informing people is 10 times more important and crusial for the cause than stupid shit like rioting etc.

4. Organise the class struggle. And fuck anybody who tells you that class struggle is dead. Big trap; huge trap. Class struggle is more alive than ever.

5. Define reformism and opportunism. The first is a social tendecy, the second a political choise. Reformism is not the absolute bad that many overrevolutionaries are making him to look like. But opportunism is catastrofic.

Thats it for now.:D

[Threetune]

Yes, yes, much of this comment is all very well but it lacks the politics to pull everything together.
It’s as if there is no connection between ‘events’ even obviously major events disturbing the ruling class and its control of the planet. Like the rest of the threads on this ‘politics’ forum, the (at times very good interventions) are all disconnected from each other dealing only with the surface or some localised appearance of the imperialist economic crisis.

The crisis is not some painted backdrop in front of which all the separate politics acts are played out. The economic crisis of ‘overproduction’ of capital is the driving force, the essential condition of all economic social, political and psychological activity of imperialism one way or another. And all this activity - wage restraint strikes, unemployment, riots, protests, state repression, war, pacifism, corruption, opportunism, reformism revisionism, nationalism, and revolution are all the consequence of the un-resolvable contradictions of capitalist economics.

For capitalism, ‘Capital’ needs to be invested profitably to fulfil its exploitation purpose and accumulate more capital. (Someone wrote a book about it) But rival capitalists are also looking to invest their capital in the most lucrative places as well. TO MUCH CAPITAL – NOT ENOUGH SUFFICIENTLY LUCRATIVE PLACES TO INVEST IT! = ‘OVER PRODUCTION’ OF CAPITAL. The ‘Solution’ for capitalism is - destroy the surplus capital, destroy the capacity for production and the labour power of the rival capitalists. = WORLD WAR!!!

Open fascism has failed before and nowhere more dramatically than in the short 12 years of Nazism in Germany. So what to do?
The question is how quickly and sharply does the ruling class have to tear up the last pretences of “democracy” and openly intimidate the working class???

The American wing, echoing the harder-edged corporate rule of the US heart of capitalism, which did not make so many concessions post-1945 (unlike the neocon-despised Europeans), wants to go quicker. The Europeans are reluctant, almost paralysed by the crisis.
Patriotic 'our boys' reactionary British nationalism is a key weapon for the ruling class in all this, one of the last resort methods for dragooning and stampeding the working class and heading off any turn to revolution by building up warmongering, exactly how the First and Second World Wars were initiated and mobilised.

It has been cynically manipulated and hyped for two decades (and especially by the tabloid capitalist press) as capitalism has deliberately heated up the war atmosphere with its hypocritical, barbaric and lying blitzkrieging of victim after victim from Serbia to Afghanistan, using every Goebbels BIG LIE to pretend “humanitarian concern” in order to whip up the most backward petty bourgeois elements as in Libya and Syria at present, or in Sudan where a fraudulent Numibian “self-determination” stunt is suddenly being whipped up in the new northern state to try and further balkanise it.The true nature of capitalist rule is always one of brutal violence and suppression – an essentially fascist nature through and through at all times.

But to expose that means sharpening up the class war to a new level which parts of the ruling class do not feel ready to do yet, counting instead on the supine class collaboration of the long Labourite tradition and the ranked layers of fake-“left”s, propping them up to hold back working class struggle and undermine any revolutionary understanding it is striving for.

But the hesitations of the ruling class are running out of road.

The parliamentary racket has been getting more and more threadbare for the entire 20th century, and the working class correctly more and more disillusioned as one after another “left” or populist promise (including “popular” house ownership under Thatcher etc) has been proven yet another confidence trick.

The proportion of workers voting has dropped dramatically election by election, and such turnout as has remained comes from either the areas where the public sector is the main employer such as the north-east, and the northern big cities, (therefore reflecting residual reformist illusions and hopes in the post-war “settlement”) or is not a positive vote for anyone, but simply an expression of hostility against “an even worse bunch of corrupt self-seekers”.

The last ditch New Labour spin has collapsed in the ignominy of the slump and the defeats and quagmires of imperialist neo-colonialist warmongering (and exposed lies) and the Coalition is a cobbled-together racket that satisfies no-one, and without authority.

Leninism has constantly made this clear for decades in its revolutionary analysis, saying the only point of using elections and running candidates is for them to be able to say loud and clear that the entire bogus racket should be denounced.

But the fake-“lefts” on Revleft from the Trots to the Museum-Stalinists) still urge workers to vote for yet more supposed “left representative” alternatives (and so bolster parliament) when what the working class needs to hear is that their contempt for Parliament and its corrupt pocket-lining is not only justified but a major step towards throwing off all residual historical illusion, clearing the way for revolutionary understanding.

But at the key moments like now, in actual practice, the world revolutionary perspectives and tactics are never put forwards, being kept for academic and turgid articles debating like we get on Revleft some never-to-be-arrived-at dry academic future revolution (if at all).

[Threetune]

Yeah cause the struggle for better revolutionary theory begins with you deeming all other opinions other than your own as counter revolutionary. :rolleyes:

No points

[Threetune]

Best. ML parody. Ever.



But true though, init.

[Threetune]

Its important to discuss the crisis as much as possible right now. Can we keep our dead Russian friends at home and minimize the sectarianism?

We;re obviously in for a "double dip" but are we entering an "official" depression? When will Greece default and what will be the reaction ?

Is it a crisis of "over production" or more of over-acumulation of capital (leading to over production)?

Comrade, imperialist capitalism is never anything other than a permanent ongoing crisis for the hundreds of millions of poor workers internationally. "double dip" and "official" depression?” are quite simply just the war cry of a degenerate class system heading for an uncertain future. They are not in control of their system, or the consequences of their actions. They are a delinquent ruling class! We communist workers will impose the discipline that will feed the world's people with everything they need and want. That is why we are hated and attacked.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The Reformists are counter revolutionary traitors.

There's no revolution.:thumbup1:

It's a criss caused by over-accumulation of capital, which has only been worsened by various neo-Keynesian ideas as Quantitative Easing and blatant bail-outs (i.e. free lunches for the banks that are so financially unhealthy right now).

The key thing to note about this crisis is that it is mainly a financial crisis. Of course, the trouble with banks, their toxic debt and the masses of personal and governmental debt that has been accrued through the years of neo-liberalism and through the bailing out of the banks, has led to an economic crisis: the recession. But the key driver of this crisis has been financial: government debt, inter-bank debt, personal debt and currency problems (a la the Euro).

I'm not sure what over-arching conclusions I am going to draw from this, in terms of its relationship to Capitalism, so i'm going to leave my analysis as such for now, instead of drawing some 'MARXISM-LENINISM IS THE ONLY THING THAT CAN SAVE THE WORLD'-type rubbish of a conclusion.

[Threetune]

A growing numbers of revolutionary workers in Britain, Europe and North America are being created by the latest deep capitalist economic crisis of ‘overproduction’.

[Threetune]

We are responsible adult workers. We will take control of the world.

[Threetune]

Comrade, imperialist capitalism is never anything other than a permanent ongoing crisis for the hundreds of millions of poor workers internationally. "double dip" and "official" depression?” are quite simply just the war cry of a degenerate class system heading for an uncertain future. They are not in control of their system, or the consequences of their actions. They are a delinquent ruling class! We communist workers will impose the discipline that will feed the world's people with everything they need and want. That is why we are hated and attacked.

Look , can every one stop buggering about, we are going to take the power or get annihilated. What are you doing? Just start tacking power now, bit by bit if that's what it takes.

[svenne]

But true though, init.

That it's a parody? I sure hope so, since i've seen a lot of MLs argue here. Yet, you still haven't put forward any proposals about what a revolutionary movement should be doing; instead, you've been calling everybody else reformist or anarchist.

[Threetune]

That it's a parody? I sure hope so, since i've seen a lot of MLs argue here. Yet, you still haven't put forward any proposals about what a revolutionary movement should be doing; instead, you've been calling everybody else reformist or anarchist.

"...what the working class needs to hear is that their contempt for Parliament and its corrupt pocket-lining is not only justified but a major step towards throwing off all residual historical illusion, clearing the way for revolutionary understanding."

[Le Socialiste]

A growing numbers of revolutionary workers in Britain, Europe and North America are being created by the latest deep capitalist economic crisis of ‘overproduction’.


We are responsible adult workers. We will take control of the world.



Look , can every one stop buggering about, we are going to take the power or get annihilated. What are you doing? Just start tacking power now, bit by bit if that's what it takes.

Why is everything in bold? Is this your way of yelling? Look man, I'm with you as far as illustrating the futility of engaging in bourgeois democracy/parliamentarism, but there's quite a difference between guiding the working-class towards a revolutionary consciousness and declaring leadership over it. People are angry right now, the question is how we approach it. The reality is the vast majority of workers are confused as fuck about their options, as they've been told repeatedly that there are no alternatives to their present situations. Our role is to provide that alternative, to be a guiding force that helps everyday workers understand the fundamentals of their position and their role in overcoming it. We can be a part of the struggle without being its declared leaders.

[chegitz guevara]

5. Define reformism and opportunism. The first is a social tendecy, the second a political choise. Reformism is not the absolute bad that many overrevolutionaries are making him to look like. But opportunism is catastrofic.

Thats it for now.:D

Great advice, Brother!

But can you follow your own advice and "Define reformism and opportunism." :D

My FB readers want to know (cuz I reposted your comments there, as "Advice from an Hellenic Anarchist"

[Delenda Carthago]

Great advice, Brother!

But can you follow your own advice and "Define reformism and opportunism." :D

My FB readers want to know (cuz I reposted your comments there, as "Advice from an Hellenic Anarchist"
First of all, tell them I m not an anarchist! I m something between... an anarchosyndicalist, a leninist with a twist of workers autonomy. Mostly. :confused:
I dont think outside greece would understand it.:D

Now look. Reformism other than a political choice is mostly a social tendecy. Many people out there dont really want to make a radical change in society, they want to simply better their lives. Thats not a bad thing to begin with. And this is the reason why there was such a long history of reformist parties. That doesnt mean that real reformism is sold out either. There were real battles with the goons of the bosses in the history of the workers movement that was given by the reformists, not the revolutionaries. Its not a really bad thing for a workers movement to begin with, since the creation of a worker consioussness goes through many stages. Not everyone wakes up one day and feels a revolutionary.First you gonna fight for a wage raise and then you ll fight to overthrow capitalism. And thats the deal if you want to stay close to reality and not be over-revolutionary. Cause you can understand that trying to find the most radical stance is cheap. The point is to apply your ideals to reality. And in order to do that, you have to be listening to the society's needs. Reformism actually becomes a problem when you have to overcome it. And that's the stage of a pre-revolution society. But I dont think you ll be needing this for a while.

Nowdays we tend to think as reformist someone that is completly sold out. That dont move his ass to change a fuckin thing. Or someone that is an opportunist. Thats not right.
Opportunism as we know is the political attitude that makes political persons(or organisations) to change their views on a subject depending to what they thing the people want to hear or what it would bring them the most power. Many times a political party that is clearly opportunistic can sell out a struggle in order for them to take the overvalue of it(maybe in elections).And of course, opportunism is the stance that a political party can talk out loud but cant back the talk up. This is when you sell out the revolutionary cause in order to fit in the System.

Now this, opportunism, is a political stance. Its something that was consiously chosen. Nothing like reformism.

I hope I made it clear OK?

[RadioRaheem84]

I m something between... an anarchosyndicalist, a leninist with a twist of workers autonomy. Mostly.

This is interesting. I've always felt myself waffling in between an ML and an anarcho-syndicalist, if that makes any sense?

[Delenda Carthago]

This is interesting. I've always felt myself waffling in between an ML and an anarcho-syndicalist, if that makes any sense?
Ιt does to me!:cool:
I think history is far more complicated to think that someone or some ideology had always the answer, and that in today's world the limits and the boundaries between ideologies in order for us to find answers to our lives is not so thick like it was a century ago. You use every tool available. The point is to learn to use these tools well.

[svenne]

"...what the working class needs to hear is that their contempt for Parliament and its corrupt pocket-lining is not only justified but a major step towards throwing off all residual historical illusion, clearing the way for revolutionary understanding."

Great. So, we should talk? You still haven't put forward anything. The anarchists i know stand in picket lines, and you do say they should do... what?

[Threetune]

Great. So, we should talk? You still haven't put forward anything. The anarchists i know stand in picket lines, and you do say they should do... what?

While the anarchists you know are “sanding on picket lines" what are they talking about?

[Threetune]

Great. So, we should talk? You still haven't put forward anything. The anarchists i know stand in picket lines, and you do say they should do... what?

Christine Lagarde: IMF may need billions in extra funding

Christine Lagarde has signalled that the International Monetary Fund (IMF) may have to tap its members – including Britain – for billions of pounds of extra funding to stem the European debt crisis.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8788223/Christine-Lagarde-IMF-may-need-billions-in-extra-funding.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8788223/Christine-Lagarde-IMF-may-need-billions-in-extra-funding.html)

Can we see the nervousness, resentment and hostility being ratcheted-up between the ‘great’ imperialist powers in all this? Could the anarchists you know be talking about this while they are “sanding on picket lines”?

[svenne]

While the anarchists you know are “sanding on picket lines" what are they talking about?

Wait... What... How... Where... When... Are you drunk or just trollin' me real good? I honestly have no idea what you are trying to put forward as an argument.

[Threetune]

Wait... What... How... Where... When... Are you drunk or just trollin' me real good? I honestly have no idea what you are trying to put forward as an argument.

So why are you telling us about “anarchists you know are “sanding on picket lines" if you can’t talk about them?

Meanwhile back to the OP.

Top of the agenda

"Well if European politicians had hoped they could halt the market turmoil they have failed. Asian equity markets and the euro have fallen in overnight trading amid continuing concern about the eurozone debt crisis. Stung by growing criticism from the US and China for failing to get to grip with the crisis, Europe's leaders have drawn up the outline of a new plan. The talk is of a writedown of Greek sovereign debt of 50pc; a supercharged European Financial Stability Facility; and the recapitalisation of eurozone banks. But it seems the market has passed the point where tough talk is good enough."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8788482/City-Desk-Morning-Briefing-Monday-September-26-2011.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8788482/City-Desk-Morning-Briefing-Monday-September-26-2011.html)

[svenne]

What am i supposed to say about them? I really have no idea what you are trying to prove, write, or use as a point here. The anarchists are discussing the current crisis? Of course?

[Threetune]

Oh, at last. So let’s go ploddingly on. What are they saying about it?

[svenne]

That the only way to solve capitalisms crises, is to get rid of capitalism and replace it with a free association of producers?

[Threetune]

That the only way to solve capitalisms crises, is to get rid of capitalism and replace it with a free association of producers?



So, the anarchists you know “stand on picket lines”, “discussing the current crisis” and the “free association of produces” as the only way to solve "capitalisms current crises."

Firstly, there is no “solution” to “capitalisms current crisis” which is nothing more or less than an acute turn in the historically long and ever escalating general crisis of capitalist ‘overproduction’. Not ‘overproduction’ in relation to need you understand, but ‘overproduction’ of commodities in relation to the profitable returns they can command in the markets.

Another ‘overproduction’ is of capital itself which is now so vast that the competing capitalists around the world are finding it more and more difficult to invest and find profitable returns in opposition to their capitalist competitors. The historic answer to this for capitalism is war and the destruction of the ‘surpluses’. This is what the ‘crisis’ is really all about. You can find and read this in the writings of Karl Marx or other potted versions.

It would be good if the anarchists you know are talking about this on picket lines everywhere and in the cafés, pubs, kitchens, bus stops, and refectories etc. It would be even better if the Stalinists, Trotskyists, and Maoists were doing it as well, because this is the most important ‘PRACTICE’ we can be engaged in right now.

Secondly, can you say what a “free association of produces” is, as a ‘solution’? I could guess at what this means and answer my own guesswork, but that’s not really the best way go is it.

[svenne]

So, the anarchists you know “stand on picket lines”, “discussing the current crisis” and the “free association of produces” as the only way to solve "capitalisms current crises."

Firstly, there is no “solution” to “capitalisms current crisis” which is nothing more or less than an acute turn in the historically long and ever escalating general crisis of capitalist ‘overproduction’. Not ‘overproduction’ in relation to need you understand, but ‘overproduction’ of commodities in relation to the profitable returns they can command in the markets.

Another ‘overproduction’ is of capital itself which is now so vast that the competing capitalists around the world are finding it more and more difficult to invest and find profitable returns in opposition to their capitalist competitors. The historic answer to this for capitalism is war and the destruction of the ‘surpluses’. This is what the ‘crisis’ is really all about. You can find and read this in the writings of Karl Marx or other potted versions.

It would be good if the anarchists you know are talking about this on picket lines everywhere and in the cafés, pubs, kitchens, bus stops, and refectories etc. It would be even better if the Stalinists, Trotskyists, and Maoists were doing it as well, because this is the most important ‘PRACTICE’ we can be engaged in right now.

Secondly, can you say what a “free association of produces” is, as a ‘solution’? I could guess at what this means and answer my own guesswork, but that’s not really the best way go is it.

Uhm. Yeah. I'm a marxist, and my solution to capitalism is to get rid of it. I've read Marx. And still am. And the same is true for the people i am organised with. A lot of people read Marx, without being marxist-leninists. I really can't see the contradiction between practical class struggle, and talking about getting rid of capitalism. As we both seem to like Marx, we both should be agreeing that there is a connection between theory and practice, and neither one by itself is enough; while also seeing that the only way to end capitalisms rule is to by hand, break it down.

The free association of producers = communism.

[Threetune]

OK, as you say “we both should be agreeing that there is a connection between theory and practice, and neither one by itself is enough; while also seeing that the only way to end capitalisms rule is to by hand, break it down.”

The capitalist class dictatorship will not allow communism, and while the picket line can be an embryo of working class power, you will appreciate that it is insufficient to withstand the violent wars and civil wars that capitalism is now unleashing on the planet.

The working class will have to organise its own class dictatorship or lose everything. ‘UNDERSTANDING’ and talking about, explaining, rather than just “seeing” that the only way to end capitalisms rule is to by hand, break it down.” is the necessary practice now! Hence the Origional Post. This revolutionary theory is the weapon of choice for Leninist workers; it guides all strategies and tactics and there is never an excuse for not explaining it as far and wide as possible.


Edit: So the OP said: 'And Marxism-Leninism understands and has been saying consistently, that this ongoing and worsening economic crisis of overproduction is at the root of degenerate capitalist imperialist warmongering and the only ‘answer’ is the dictatorship of the proletariat. All ‘left’ and pacifist reforms are wishful thinking and dangerously counter revolutionary.'

[cb9's_unity]

This whole thread is an example of what is good and bad about the left. A few people here are analyzing the specific and concrete causes of the current global crisis. And a few people here are trying to smash their specific sectarian ideology on top of the events going on in the world instead of analyzing them.

If people didn't filter their thoughts through their ideology before they spoke we might realize we have more in common than we thought. And we might be able to learn a few things from each other.

[Dimmu]

This probably means that most of us will carry the burden to "bail out" the broken system.

Actually in Finland many people are losing faith in capitalism, its very noticeable.

[LewisQ]

Does anyone really have "faith in capitalism"? Isn't it simply that people see it as an ineluctable fact of life?

[Threetune]

This whole thread is an example of what is good and bad about the left. A few people here are analyzing the specific and concrete causes of the current global crisis. And a few people here are trying to smash their specific sectarian ideology on top of the events going on in the world instead of analyzing them.

If people didn't filter their thoughts through their ideology before they spoke we might realize we have more in common than we thought. And we might be able to learn a few things from each other.

Thanks for that. I found it obscure. Are we supposed to guess at what you’re meaning is, read in or read between the lines and answer you, or can you be more specific? Being blunt and direct with what you have is more respectful to everyone.


Meanwhile, back to the topic of the OP again. I hope everyone has seen this: must see clip: Listen how all the smart theories and diplomatic, democratic smokescreen planing language is being blown to the wind now that this ‘crisis’ is beginning to shatter all illusions and idealist dreams. “The markets don’t buy this rescue plan”. “We don’t care that much”.


http://www.youtube.com/embed/kpg76VjTa58?html5=1&autoplay=1&vq=medium&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.businessinsider.com%2Fbbc-speechless-as-trader-tells-truth-the-collapse-is-comingand-goldman-rules-the-world-2011-9 (http://www.youtube.com/embed/kpg76VjTa58?html5=1&autoplay=1&vq=medium&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.businessinsider.com%2Fbbc-speechless-as-trader-tells-truth-the-collapse-is-comingand-goldman-rules-the-world-2011-9)

[cb9's_unity]

Ok, i'll be blunt. Though I'm honestly hoping to do this in a constructive manner. And yes I know this post is way off topic.

A lot of your posts look as though they are purely about theory. You really just have to look at your OP. It starts with a quote about a current situation and then immediately goes into praising M-L theory and launching a sectarian attack. You used the current situation to delve into theory. The opposite is our true objective, theory is supposed to clarify and give guidance to the current situation.

I think post #6, by Lenina Rosenweg, is a better example of how we need to use Marxism. Specific Marxist theory is used, but most of the post talks about actual events in the world. This conflicts with your post two down from hers. It talks a little about specific situations in different country's, but its bloated with theory and petty sectarian attacks.

I respect that you have done a lot of research and studied up on Marxists. I honestly need to do a lot more of that myself. However we need to look at how we are using that theory and who we are directing it at. In this thread you've spent almost as much time bashing trots, stalinists, and anarchists as you have European capitalism. We are at a moment in history where small differences in ideology simply do not matter. I really don't know enough to say this about europe, but in America the left as a socially relevant force is in a deep coma. Our sole objective needs to be finding effective ways at criticizing specific government and their policies. We need to demonstrate the flaws, cruelty, and ignorance of modern capitalism if we ever want to be relevant. Revleft ought to be a place where we come together to get better at doing that.

I can't really deny that i'm being a sort of hypocrite by even posting this, I don't like to attack leftists for attacking other leftists. And I don't want to get too far into an argument about the specific nature of your posts. Its very likely that at times I have been guilty of the very same things I'm criticizing you for doing now. But what I'm trying to highlight what I see is a bigger problem across the left as a whole.

[Threetune]

Thanks for a more direct response.
I’m not being patronising. I don’t think you are being hypocritical either, but I do believe you’re expressing concisely much of the confused thinking that is all too evident on Revleft.


What for example, is in the water that has so poisoned (mostly the younger comrades) with the idea that a political attack is somehow always ‘sectarian’, when it is nothing of the sort.

JUST SAY WHAT’S WRONG WITH THE ANALISIS IF YOU THINK IT’S WRONG!

Why whinge about the form of the argument? Deal with its content!

Could the argument be more accurate about world developments? If so say how.


The fake-"left" is so far gone in opportunism that they no longer even grasp the need for a revolutionary party of open polemic struggle to develop and constantly update and extend a scientific world perspective describing and warning of the unbearably stretched historical contradictions which are plunging the world towards chaos and destruction.

Once the latest and most disastrous of all capitalist meltdown crises finally unravels into the catastrophic Slump collapse that is unstoppably unfolding, held back only transiently since 2008 by insane money printing (which will only magnify the onrushing disaster) then even worse destruction is inevitable.


Then the current turmoil of already collapsed markets, failed currencies and bankrupted countries will rapidly accelerate into all-out warmongering and inter-imperialist conflict, the only answer capitalism has ever had to its humiliating incompetence, to divert attention from its failure, head off rising working class resistance by pumping up chauvinism, to scapegoat and blame outsiders and "others" (clear visible in deliberate hounding of gypsy travellers at present with police raids over alleged "slave-keeping", and evictions), and eventually try to destroy them along with great "surpluses" of capital which clog its world trading and production system.

This onrushing World War devastation is the real point to all the fraudulent "human rights" and "anti-terrorist" wars being waged, preparing the world for the all-out destruction that the epochal collapse of capitalist class rule is bringing, just as it has done three times already, escalating massively each time in scale and intensity, from the horrors of the Franco-Prussian War (1870) to the industrialised carnage of the Great War (1914-18) over all of Europe, to the world scale destruction and devastation of World War Two (1939-45), which dwarfed everything before it.

But while the foul blitzkrieg destruction of the tiny Libyan nationalist revolution (five million in population), by the combined might of Western arms and its Nazi-NATO military (over five hundred million) may have "succeeded" in asserting yet again the "right" of "Might" for the moment, it will not hold back the huge rising anger and hatred of the Third World.

It was at the World Trade Centres that this often confused but ever-growing rebelliousness gave mighty US imperialism its own taste of "shock and awe" in September 2001, shattering its arrogant confidence.

The Twin Towers victims of the plane crashes are themselves tragic losses in the endless and increasing chaos and devastation of capitalism's collapse, but they are a drop in the ocean of the permanent mayhem, torture, repression, and brutality inflicted on the billions of the Third World, via fascist violence or simply the slow massacre of tens of millions through starvation, poverty & imposed ignorance.

Just as tragic are the suicide perpetrators, like thousands or tens of thousands of the downtrodden, who at huge personal cost and self-sacrifice gave notice that the world dominating tyranny of imperialist exploitation would never be safe again.

Just the opposite. The explosive anger of the Egyptian masses at the recent (routine) Zionist attacks on Palestine and the Zionist killing of five Egyptian police, which has ready seen imperialism's number one stooge forced to retreat from its Cairo embassy, is the latest confirmation that massive world turmoil is not going to die down, but only increase and intensify.

The Arab Spring revolutionary developments in Egypt and Tunisia, which imperialist intrigue has tried to head off with its bogus "revolutionary extension" via deliberate COUNTER-revolutionary upheavals in Libya and Syria (long planned by CIA, Mossad and western subversion and even armed provocations) have shown already that mass struggle against Western tyranny and torturing fascist stooge dictatorship is now spontaneously lifting the inchoate, desperate and sometimes contradictorily backward "terrorist" struggles to a new stage of rapidly widening mass rebellion.

And this rage and anger at the devastation and repression of capitalism is fast spreading across the world as the unstoppable and accelerating crisis collapse of the entire profit system spirals into catastrophe.

The riots and upheavals tearing city centres apart from Santiago in Chile to Athens, Madrid, and Paris in Europe and multiple towns and locations in Britain, all underline that far from having pacified world resistance to its depravity, the endless warmongering and the crisis which is driving it towards all out World War, have massively increased the turmoil which will reach into the heartlands of even the "rich" capitalist powers which have long dominated the world.

What does hold back the masses however is the continuing legacy of decades of confusion poured out by the fake-"lefts", all utterly corrupted by the long inflationary "boom" of imperialism and opportunistic notions of "peaceful roads" and "democratic ways" to achieve "steady negotiated progress" for working class conditions and living standards (with more or less militancy and "extra-parliamentary pressure" to push it along according to taste). And always it has ignored the Third World on whose backs this "progress" has been built.

For decades the Slump catastrophe that capitalist crisis must always return to (which is guaranteed to wipe out all these tactical concessions by the ruling class) was ignored by the fake-"left" and only since it has become so obvious with the 2008 bank disasters, has it been alluded to here and there in "left" articles.

But despite token references to "the recession" and the crisis, or even long-winded articles spelling out academically the Marxist theory of crisis, no living reference to the devastating failure of the capitalist system as the driving force underlying all the world's major events ever emerges in the reams of petty bourgeois fake-"left" nonsense poured out about "wars for oil" and other such partial explanations.

And despite the pretences of being "revolutionary parties" there is equally no mention in tactics and practice of the only possible solution, the complete ending of this degenerate and long out-of-time class rule society, rotten to the core with philistinism, crudity, corruption, criminality, drugs, pornography, racism, violence, environmental destructiveness, pollution, torture, repression, alienated despair and endless bloody destructiveness, wilfully wasting billions of human lives and their vast potential genius in ignorance and poverty and crushing exploitation.

And all to keep the tiniest minority of ruling class in insane pampered luxury and power at the expense of the gigantic possibilities which modern science, technology and resources make possible for everyone on earth if they were harnessed in a controlled and planned manner for human development and not pointless anarchic profiteering.

To the contrary the same old tepid mixture of opportunist reformism and protest mixed with pacifist wishful thinking and mostly larded with cynical anti-communism, continues to pour out, perhaps with some slightly more defensive "Stop the Cuts" sloganising and protest (though precious little of that even from the official "Labour Movement" so far, with even the threatened pension strikes simply arguing to retain the old reformist status quo).

The fake-"left" is so far gone in opportunism that they no longer even grasp the need for a revolutionary party of open polemic struggle to develop and constantly update and extend a scientific world perspective describing and warning of the unbearably stretched historical contradictions which are plunging the world towards chaos and destruction.

Capitalism is desperate to ratchet up the war atmosphere and keep it on the boil even as the "war on terror" has lost its momentum in a welter of exposés, revelations and growing petty bourgeois disquiet about imperialist massacres, torture, and barbarity (like the latest Abba Mousa inquiry findings of widespread British Army fascist violence).

And it has been ever more frantic to do so since the eruption of the Arab Spring revolts in Egypt and Tunisia have signalled a qualitatively new level has been reached in the Third World rebellion, adding to the enormous (and intractable) problems of the greatest ever crisis failure its out-of-time class rule has ever faced.

The ferment of militant "terrorism" and other forms of often heroic but piecemeal struggle are now transforming into a mass revolt which is adding further to the already impossible-to-resolve contradictions of the capitalist "credit crunch" – the technical expression of the unrolling crisis disaster which Marxism long ago identified as the unstoppable core contradiction of the production for private profit system.

Slump, crisis, market failure and Depression are inbuilt in a system which anarchically pursues the "opportunities for expansion and new investment" irrespective of human needs or all other equally demented investment in the same sectors, always leading to complete over-saturation, with none of the capital eventually able to get back any meaningful profits.

As Marx declared, the insanity of "want in the midst of plenty" is produced by the demented demand for profit at all costs, while pushing the exploitation rate of the working class to ever more intolerable levels, cutting away the very capacity for the masses to buy the things they need, and producing the inevitable gluts of unsold goods that create market failure.

In the complex epoch of monopoly world domination this basic "overproduction" is short-circuited, disguised and hidden by the manipulation and forcing of the markets through world monopoly dominance of the giant multinationals backed up by the overriding power and influence of the leading imperialist powers, most of all the "top dog" United States.

Via ever more complex credit mechanisms and currency manipulations the crisis emerges on the surface around the glut of finance capital itself and the endless stretching of its control by fantastical credit mechanisms which eventually has snapped like an elastic band.
The implosion has been stopped only by the insanity of adding yet more fantastical valueless credit to the enormous mountain of paper dollars which just collapsed in 2008.

But that only temporarily delays the impact of the "credit crunch" which is resuming once more, and at an even deeper level now that governments have poured all their national resources into the bottomless pit, as the panic measures of money printing and bank rescue inevitably fails to stimulate production.

Nothing can increase the profitable output of the system because its underlying structure is clogged solid with "surplus" capital unable to find anymore investment opportunities, exactly as Marx's titanic analysis of capitalism demonstrated 150 years ago will always eventually be the case.
And this fundamental understanding (see page 6) remains unchallenged and unchallengeable (despite endless bourgeois attempts to discredit it) because it accurately and scientifically describes the reality of capitalist exploitation and the contradictions which are built into it and which can only ever lead to repeated slump disaster, on ever greater scale.

Far from "solving" the credit crunch problems the latest money printing just intensifies the contradictions, feeding massive inflation into the system (swamping the Slump DEFLATION which is paralysing commerce and industry) and intensifying the unbearable inter-imperialist tensions with new escalations in the currency and trade wars as each major power tries to force currency collapse and bank failure onto rival major capitalist centres.

With such a perspective the war on Libya was immediately identifiable by Marxism as yet another step in the long build-up to world war, and with a particularly specific function as a deliberate feint, set off and provoked by imperialism because of the truly spontaneous mass rebellions in Tunisia and Egypt in previous weeks, themselves triggered by the overall disastrous crisis of the American Empire dominated world.

The genuine revolts caught the monopoly capitalism world order on the hop, threatening to topple the long established imperialist stooge dictatorships which have been heavily financed and armed by imperialism to bolster and support the monstrous Zionist entity, the key instrument of occupation and permanent jackboot domination to pacify the entire Middle East, rich with both resources for exploitation and a long and honourable cultural and scientific civilised tradition that has threatened to become a major challenge to Western capitalist power since the Second War.

[Threetune]

This is interesting and easy to grasp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0&feature=relmfu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0&feature=relmfu)

[ckaihatsu]

And despite the pretences of being "revolutionary parties" there is equally no mention in tactics and practice of the only possible solution, the complete ending of this degenerate and long out-of-time class rule society, rotten to the core with philistinism, crudity, corruption, criminality, drugs, pornography, racism, violence, environmental destructiveness, pollution, torture, repression, alienated despair and endless bloody destructiveness, wilfully wasting billions of human lives and their vast potential genius in ignorance and poverty and crushing exploitation.


I'm reluctant to even raise this point since it's nit-picking in comparison to the crucial content of your whole post -- essentially a revolutionary program -- but I have to ask, what's the deal with pornography? Isn't it lifestylism to rag on that, a decidedly *consumer* aspect of the modern world?

Of course the women or people involved are exploited, but certainly only on par with any other like sector of wage labor in its entirety. I have even seen this position before from other socialist organization(s), but I remain unconvinced that it should be considered as a particular ill of capitalism since such an argument can only be based on moralism and lifestylism.

Anyone?