What to do when a Marxist organisation is homophobic or transphobic?

[Queercommie Girl]

What would you say is the best response for a queer Marxist when he/she encounters a Marxist organisation that is homophobic and/or transphobic? How should such a situation be dealt with?

This is a general/generic question rather than a specific/personal one.

[Queercommie Girl]

Why thank me? Answer the question LOL

[Smyg]

Hey, I don't know either. :D

[Nox]

Marxist organisation that is homophobic and/or transphobic.

No such thing.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I would quit.If I wanted to associate with queerphobes I would remain with the capitalists.Phobias have no place within the far-left or anyone daring to call themselves socialist.

[Smyg]

No such thing.

...

:huh:

[thesadmafioso]

Uh, you could always denounce it for holding to discriminatory policies which are counter to the spirit and aims of any true Marxist party, for a start.

It would also be a good idea to explain the concept that such a position is hardly Marxist in its content and that the group does not represent the opinion held by the vast majority of Communist organizations.


No such thing.

You do realize that Stalinism has quite the robust history of homophobia, right?

[CommieTroll]

No such thing.
Fidel wasn't to kind towards gays after the Cuban revolution either

[ponymaruni]

what exactly is wrong with being a homophobic communist organization. What i feel is that a lot of you soft wanna be communists on this forum are always trying to combine the idea of sexuality to communism. Just like a lot of you people actually think a communist revolution can occur without violence so you just sit here writing on the website. Nothing wrong with being a communist and a homophobic individual.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Call them out on it and leave them if you had joined them.

[Nox]

...

:huh:

What I'm trying to get at is that a 'Marxist' organisation isn't really that Marxist if they have homophobic/transphobic views.

[Nox]

Fidel wasn't to kind towards gays after the Cuban revolution either

Fidel's regime certainly wasn't/isn't Marxist.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

What I'm trying to get at is that a 'Marxist' organisation isn't really that Marxist if they have homophobic/transphobic views.

But Marx himself has very homophobic...

[A Revolutionary Tool]

But Marx himself has very homophobic...
Was he? I thought that was Engels, not Marx.

[Nox]

But Marx himself has very homophobic...

Really? Wow, didn't know that.

I guess that invalidates everything I've been saying.

Bye!

[Invader Zim]

No such thing.

So Stalin's regime was not communist? Thanks for finally admitting it..

[Nox]

So Stalin's regime was not communist? Thanks for finally admitting it..

You're kind of late, we've already established that the post you quoted was wrong.

Keep up.

[manic expression]

I've never been in that situation, but I think it would be a good idea to talk to a few members who I knew and trusted the most...approach the leadership together with them and then talk to whomever's been showing disrespect to LGBT sisters and brothers. Just my own opinion...

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Was he? I thought that was Engels, not Marx.

No I am pretty sure it was Marx,I believe he called someone along the lines of "ass fucker." ...if that's not homophobic I don't now what is.I am sure someone else here could tell you more details.

A good essay to read about this is Unthinking Sex:Marx,Engles and the scene of writing by Andrew Parker. Some moments are rather crappy as the author makes some very questionable assertions but it has some interesting points.

[CommieTroll]

Fidel's regime certainly wasn't/isn't Marxist.

A better example would be Che

[El Louton]

If that's true I'd leave. Not good to be associated with them. They're not real Marxist's.

[CommieTroll]

what exactly is wrong with being a homophobic

Are you actually serious? Homophobia is a cancer. What justifiable reason is there to hate gay people? A wise friend of mine once said ''love has no limits, only people do.''

[Commissar Rykov]

what exactly is wrong with being a homophobic communist organization. What i feel is that a lot of you soft wanna be communists on this forum are always trying to combine the idea of sexuality to communism. Just like a lot of you people actually think a communist revolution can occur without violence so you just sit here writing on the website. Nothing wrong with being a communist and a homophobic individual.
Is this some kind of hilarious parody? I hope so.

[El Louton]

Brilliant quote Comrade! Good answer too. Can I ask who John Lenin is?

[Queercommie Girl]

No such thing.

Ignoring historical parties, (Stalin has been died for a long time) even today what you said here isn't really true. It depends on where you are in the world. I'd say these days most Marxist organisations in the West are (at least in principle) pro-LGBT, even though you may still get a few odd members here or there who have homophobic/transphobic views, but largely they wouldn't represent the organisation as a whole or intrinsically.

But many contemporary Marxist parties and organisations in Russia and parts of Eastern Europe (to a lesser extent) are still quite homophobic, and to a lesser extent this is true in China as well. Chinese communists don't tend to hate LGBT people as much, but it's very rare to see Chinese communists who support LGBT rights as well. Just the other day I read an article posted on a mainland Chinese socialist website that is making fun out of "third sex" people in Thailand.

[Queercommie Girl]

what exactly is wrong with being a homophobic communist organization. What i feel is that a lot of you soft wanna be communists on this forum are always trying to combine the idea of sexuality to communism. Just like a lot of you people actually think a communist revolution can occur without violence so you just sit here writing on the website. Nothing wrong with being a communist and a homophobic individual.

Well idealism aside, from a very pragmatic and utilitarian perspective this view becomes very problematic when you have comrades who also happen to be queer...How are you ever going to co-operate with such comrades? And what if these queer comrades are actually very good in terms of Marxist theory and practice? From a strategic perspective, what are you missing out simply due to your stupid queerphobic stance?

[Queercommie Girl]

If that's true I'd leave. Not good to be associated with them. They're not real Marxist's.


But sometimes it may not be so simple, because such a party may also be very good on other issues.

Note that I'm being completely hypothetical here. This whole thread is completely theoretical. I'm not trying to refer to any actually existing Marxist organisations in any way either explicitly or implicitly.

[Devrim]

What would you say is the best response for a queer Marxist when he/she encounters a Marxist organisation that is homophobic and/or transphobic? How should such a situation be dealt with?

It depends what you mean by 'homophobic' and what you mean by the organisation 'being' homophobic.

Does 'homophobic' mean believing that homosexuals shouldn't be treated equally, or does it mean people have a 'fear' of homosexuals.

Does an organisation 'being' homophobic mean that the organisation is 'homophobic' in that it has policy statements that are so, or does it mean, at the other end of the spectrum, that some members are uncomfortable around gay people?

What do you actually mean?

Devrim

[Invader Zim]

You're kind of late, we've already established that the post you quoted was wrong.

Keep up.


And as was also pointed out Marx never made any explicit comment (at least that I am aware of) regarding homosexuality, we've already established that the post you quoted was wrong.

Keep up.

[Nox]

And as was also pointed out Marx never made any explicit comment (at least that I am aware of) regarding homosexuality, we've already established that the post you quoted was wrong.

Keep up.

If you want to get technical, it wasn't Marxism-Leninism that was homophobic, it was one of Stalin's personal decisions.

So arguing about this is totally irrelevant and pointless.

[Queercommie Girl]

It depends what you mean by 'homophobic' and what you mean by the organisation 'being' homophobic.

Does 'homophobic' mean believing that homosexuals shouldn't be treated equally, or does it mean people have a 'fear' of homosexuals.

Does an organisation 'being' homophobic mean that the organisation is 'homophobic' in that it has policy statements that are so, or does it mean, at the other end of the spectrum, that some members are uncomfortable around gay people?

What do you actually mean?

Devrim

Primarily I'm referring to when the organisation as a whole does not respect LGBT rights in an official sense and do not believe gay and trans people should be treated equally, perhaps labelling them as something like "a form of bourgeois deviation". This doesn't necessarily mean they "fear" or "hate" queer people in any kind of emotional sense. Their homophobia could be a purely rational one - they believe LGBT people have embarked on the wrong path and need to be "corrected", for instance.

As for "feeling uncomfortable" around LGBT people, well this certainly exist on an individual level even in organisations that officially support LGBT rights, and I don't think this kind of prejudiced attitude would completely go away any time soon.

Another thing is that gay and trans rights are related but not the same. An organisation could be anti-homophobia but transphobic or vice versa. (E.g. in Iran transsexualism is accepted but homosexuality is not - though of course this isn't a good example in the present context)

[El Louton]

Well I think it would be stupid to be in a party which believe in something which you believe is wrong.

[Devrim]

Primarily I'm referring to when the organisation as a whole does not respect LGBT rights in an official sense and do not believe gay and trans people should be treated equally, perhaps labelling them as something like "a form of bourgeois deviation". This doesn't necessarily mean they "fear" or "hate" queer people in any kind of emotional sense. Their homophobia could be a purely rational one - they believe LGBT people have embarked on the wrong path and need to be "corrected", for instance.

I wouldn't be in an organisation which "d[id] not believe gay and trans people should be treated equally, perhaps labelling them as something like "a form of bourgeois deviation".

Nor would I think there was much about it that was communist.

Devrim

[Iron Felix]

What I'm trying to get at is that a 'Marxist' organisation isn't really that Marxist if they have homophobic/transphobic views.
Certainly Stalin wasn't a Marxist then.

[CommieTroll]

Brilliant quote Comrade! Good answer too. Can I ask who John Lenin is?

It's originally John Lennon :laugh: I just changed it to Lenin

[Nox]

Certainly Stalin wasn't a Marxist then.

You could say that about virtually any historical Communist leader.

Nobody has strictly adhered to Marxism.

[Le Libérer]

what exactly is wrong with being a homophobic communist organization. What i feel is that a lot of you soft wanna be communists on this forum are always trying to combine the idea of sexuality to communism. Just like a lot of you people actually think a communist revolution can occur without violence so you just sit here writing on the website. Nothing wrong with being a communist and a homophobic individual.



Seems you have made the distinction, an us and them perspective.
Whats wrong with it? Really? Please elaborate. Wait no, you wont be able to from OI.

[StoneFrog]

I would expose them, and try to ruin any sort of credibility they may have. No organization that is fighting for the working class should start drawing the line at where equality stops.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

In the leftist milieu of the US, Canada, Australia, and western Europe dissing lgbts is not popular and generally not accepted. It has taken time for the left (like the population in general) to be fully accepting.Perhaps things could have moved faster than they did, but by the 90s all leftist groups in the West, that I know of were very accepting and advocated lgbt rights.It may take time for individual attitudes to change but i don't think this a major problem.

In the 60s and 70s US Maoists were famous for homophobia. Partly this was due to theory, partly due to the fact that much homophobia exists within African-American communities.This seems to have passed although the US Maoist milieu itself is now virtually gone. The RCP was officially homophobic up until ten years ago but I do know of lgbt people who are members or sympathizers.

Some Russian and Eastern European communists and Chinese, Nepalese and possibly Indian Maoists are homophobic/transphobic.This may be due to theory but may also reflect cultural norms in societies where the family unit has traditionally been important for survival.Education is called for.

[Queercommie Girl]

In the 60s and 70s US Maoists were famous for homophobia. Partly this was due to theory, partly due to the fact that much homophobia exists within African-American communities.This seems to have passed although the US Maoist milieu itself is now virtually gone.


Never miss a chance to strike at the Maoists, eh? :lol:



Some Russian and Eastern European communists and Chinese, Nepalese and possibly Indian Maoists are homophobic/transphobic.This may be due to theory but may also reflect cultural norms in societies where the family unit has traditionally been important for survival.Education is called for.
Actually after the Maoists in Nepal overthrew the monarchy, they made some progress in terms of LGBT rights in the country. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Nepal

The Nepalese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepal) government, following the monarchy that ended in 2007, legalised homosexuality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality) in 2007 along with the introduction of several new law sets. Based on the ruling of the Supreme Court of Nepal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_Nepal) in late 2008, the government is looking into legalising same-sex marriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage). According to several sources, the new Nepalese constitution, which is currently being drafted, will include same-sex marriage and protection for sexual minorities.

In the 2011 Nepal census, conducted in May 2011, the Central Bureau of Statistics officially recognized a third gender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender) in addition to male and female.

The Communist Party of Nepal-Maoist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Nepal-Maoist) has made several homophobic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia) statements during the civil war. Up until 2007, party members have described homosexuality as "a production of capitalism" that "doesn't exist under socialism", and LGBT people as "social pollutants."[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Nepal#cite_note-8) Since 2008 with the end of the civil war and beginning of multi-party democracy, the Maoists have came out as supporters of LGBT rights.

During the anti-monarchy protests before the monarchy was overthrown, one Nepalese trans-girl had her throat slit by reactionary feudal police, which led to public outrage and increased people's anti-feudal sentiments.

[Red Future]

In the leftist milieu of the US, Canada, Australia, and western Europe dissing lgbts is not popular and generally not accepted. It has taken time for the left (like the population in general) to be fully accepting.Perhaps things could have moved faster than they did, but by the 90s all leftist groups in the West, that I know of were very accepting and advocated lgbt rights.It may take time for individual attitudes to change but i don't think this a major problem.

In the 60s and 70s US Maoists were famous for homophobia. Partly this was due to theory, partly due to the fact that much homophobia exists within African-American communities.This seems to have passed although the US Maoist milieu itself is now virtually gone. The RCP was officially homophobic up until ten years ago but I do know of lgbt people who are members or sympathizers.

Some Russian and Eastern European communists and Chinese, Nepalese and possibly Indian Maoists are homophobic/transphobic.This may be due to theory but may also reflect cultural norms in societies where the family unit has traditionally been important for survival.Education is called for.

We had this problem with Born in the USSR and he was from one of the few real Communist parties in the Russian Federation.

[ComradeOmar]

Well you may not be homophobic meaning you dont dicriminate against them but It does NOT mean that you have to like them. Thats just my opinion

[Commissar Rykov]

We had this problem with Born in the USSR and he was from one of the few real Communist parties in the Russian Federation.
That is the problem I think is the main thrust of the OP's argument basically how one deals with CPs and the like that are heavily influenced by their cultures and thus are rather homophobic. I don't know how one combats against other than education even then that is a rather uphill battle.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Combating homophobia with education is only gonna get you so far.One must teach young people about equality,equalize marriage,end discrimination and hate speech and many others for queerphobia to be truly eliminated.It is a long process and relying simply on education is only going to do so much for an individual who believes in religious and cultural bigotries.Hatred needs to be combated at its source and that means a total war on everything which contributes to bigotry.

[DarkPast]

We had this problem with Born in the USSR and he was from one of the few real Communist parties in the Russian Federation.

Yeah I remember that. You gave me a link to their website, and I did a quick scan of their website for their stance on LGBT issues, but wasn't able to find anything (pro or contra) - though I was using an online translator. :p

I think though that a not-too-small number of older communists was/is anti-LGBT. My grandma is a good example. She was a member of the Yugoslav Partisans and was - and still is - extremely homophobic to say the least. She once even threatened she'd not consider me her grandson anymore if I turned out to be gay. :(

[tir1944]

1930s/40s/50s =/= 90s/2000s
We have to look at everything in the historical context...

[Queercommie Girl]

I wouldn't be in an organisation which "d[id] not believe gay and trans people should be treated equally, perhaps labelling them as something like "a form of bourgeois deviation".

Nor would I think there was much about it that was communist.

Devrim

As I said, it's not so simple. The organisation could still be very good on other issues. Should the entire organisation be written off just because of a single flaw?

I'm not going to totally write-off Maoism just because a lot of Maoists these days are still queerphobic, because I care about many other issues apart from LGBT rights and liberation.

Besides, even though most Marxist parties these days explicitly state that they support LGBT rights, personally I have interacted with both the CWI and the ISO/SWP here in Britain, and to be frank neither of them have made me feel completely comfortable. (And frankly neither has RevLeft itself, though this isn't a good comparison because RevLeft is not in any way a political organisation) Perhaps there really is an element of a "token gesture" in these organisation's support of LGBT rights?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

As I said, it's not so simple. The organisation could still be very good on other issues. Should the entire organisation be written off just because of a single flaw?

Besides, even though most Marxist parties these days explicitly state that they support LGBT rights, personally I have interacted with both the CWI and the ISO/SWP here in Britain, and to be frank neither of them have made me feel completely comfortable. Perhaps there really is an element of a "token gesture" in these organisation's support of LGBT rights?

I often feel that leftist's organization support for Queers has been a token one.I wish there was a Queer Socialist party to join.

[GX.]

It depends what you mean by 'homophobic' and what you mean by the organisation 'being' homophobic.

Does 'homophobic' mean believing that homosexuals shouldn't be treated equally, or does it mean people have a 'fear' of homosexuals.

Does an organisation 'being' homophobic mean that the organisation is 'homophobic' in that it has policy statements that are so, or does it mean, at the other end of the spectrum, that some members are uncomfortable around gay people?

What do you actually mean?

Devrim

I think the latter is probably more common in the West, for example people contributing to an environment where lgbt feel silenced or unwelcome. But usually when you call people out on that kind of thing they'll just say you're being oversensitive or imagining things rather than admit they might have internalized some negative feelings towards lgbt people. Which leads to feeling of tokenism like the previous poster mentioned, like they will give you some token acknowledgement when it gets them cred but otherwise you're just supposed to stfu.

[Queercommie Girl]

I think the latter is probably more common in the West, for example people contributing to an environment where lgbt feel silenced or unwelcome. But usually when you call people out on that kind of thing they'll just say you're being oversensitive or imagining things rather than admit they might have internalized some negative feelings towards lgbt people. Which leads to feeling of tokenism like the previous poster mentioned, like they will give you some token acknowledgement when it gets them cred but otherwise you're just supposed to stfu.

Well said. To be frank occasionally that's how I feel like here on RevLeft. For instance in this thread:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/englands-burning-cities-t161308/index.html

You might say I'm being "oversensitive" but why would anyone use the "wife-beating" example towards a trans-woman? To just be sarcastic in that way there is literally a million other examples he could have used. And I'm being blamed and ridiculed for simply raising the point that the said organisation should have explicitly mentioned "LGBT" in their programme. But of course it doesn't officially constitute transphobia at all.

[Leftsolidarity]

I'm sick of this "they aren't true Marxists" crap. They might not be great people but that doesn't mean they aren't Marxists. I'm suprised no one has brought up the history of the RCP yet.

[Queercommie Girl]

I'm sick of this "they aren't true Marxists" crap. They might not be great people but that doesn't mean they aren't Marxists. I'm suprised no one has brought up the history of the RCP yet.

Someone already brought up RCP. Read more carefully.

As for your point, it depends on whether or not you consider LGBT politics to be an integral part of a Marxist ideology, like say anti-sexism is, or just some kind of "token gesture" when Marxists are feeling nice towards people.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Well said. To be frank occasionally that's how I feel like here on RevLeft. For instance in this thread:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/englands-burning-cities-t161308/index.html

You might say I'm being "oversensitive" but why would anyone use the "wife-beating" example towards a trans-woman? To just be sarcastic in that way there is literally a million other examples he could have used. And I'm being blamed and ridiculed for simply raising the point that the said organisation should have explicitly mentioned "LGBT" in their programme.

Funny story,I once said that one of my favorite hobbies while on Revleft is to call out all the "Undercover" and "Petite" homophobes.The other person said that there wasn't any homophobes on Revleft....I laughed.

Many people,especially on the left,tend to be sly about their bigotries while tossing off crude remarks which,at best,are insensitive,while at worst,no better than the conservatives.Here the trick is to word your prejudices correctly.

In terms of parties I do not think I have seen one which has explicitly made queer issues a top priority.Even when they do talk about LGBT issues they often mix in other struggles which can be alienating; it just suggests that to the writer queer struggles are so irrelevant that other,more "prevalent" struggles need to be incorporated.

In terms of queer issues I think the two parties give light the queer struggles are the PSL and Solidarity.I don't have a problem with either group,or wish to offend anyone which is a party member, but if this is the best queers are offered by the left than we are in trouble.

[Leftsolidarity]

Someone already brought up RCP. Read more carefully.



Damn it, I read every page so that I wouldn't do exactly what I just did.


As for your point, it depends on whether or not you consider LGBT politics to be an integral part of a Marxist ideology, like say anti-sexism is, or just some kind of "token gesture" when Marxists are feeling nice towards people.

Well I think if you look strictly at Marx's works and just the basis of it all I wouldn't say it's "required" or anything. That being said, if you are a homophobe, I don't care if you are a Marxist; fuck you.

[Queercommie Girl]

In terms of parties I do not think I have seen one which has explicitly made queer issues a top priority.


Actually I never expect LGBT politics to be "top priority". Frankly it isn't even "top priority" for me personally. And it's unrealistic to expect every socialist and worker to be a prominent LGBT activist. It's simply not their own issue for a lot of people. All I want really is for there to be no discrimination, either explicit or implicit, from other socialists and communists.

[Queercommie Girl]

Well I think if you look strictly at Marx's works and just the basis of it all I wouldn't say it's "required" or anything. That being said, if you are a homophobe, I don't care if you are a Marxist; fuck you.

But is Marxism simply limited to "Marx's original works" in the narrow sense? That seems to be a fundamentalist stance to me. It's like saying Christianity is just the Bible...I don't think Marx explicitly mentioned racism or sexism either, strictly speaking.

[Leftsolidarity]

But is Marxism simply limited to "Marx's original works" in the narrow sense? That seems to be a fundamentalist stance to me. It's like saying Christianity is just the Bible...I don't think Marx explicitly mentioned racism or sexism either, strictly speaking.

Well, yeah.. I would say so. You could call it Marxism-Leninism or something else if you wish to expand on it but I think that Marx's works are what define Marxism. Just because he never mentioned those things doesn't mean we can't add to them now but the present doesn't change the past. You "should" be pro-LGBT rights but you don't "have" to be to be a Marxist.

[Ocean Seal]

What is to be done. First of all, everyone should make the distinction between the old homophobic parties of the past, and those of today. Today in spite of all the evidence that homosexuality is natural there are still some people including so called Marxists that believe otherwise. They should not be collaborated with. Simply call them out on their bullshit and work with other organizations, they're not even worth your time.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Actually I never expect LGBT politics to be "top priority". Frankly it isn't even "top priority" for me personally. And it's unrealistic to expect every socialist and worker to be a prominent LGBT activist. It's simply not their own issue for a lot of people. All I want really is for there to be no discrimination, either explicit or implicit, from other socialists and communists.

I respectfully disagree.

If race,nationality,and sex have been made such issues than I believe that Queers should be as well since we still suffer great amounts of discrimination even in the "progressive" countries.

Likewise,however,I understand that even the issues I mentioned in my previous paragraph have been far from resolved."Race" and "gender" still have a long way to go to truly acheive much,but nonetheless I believe that they still have made better progress than queer issues.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

No I am pretty sure it was Marx,I believe he called someone along the lines of "ass fucker." ...if that's not homophobic I don't now what is.I am sure someone else here could tell you more details.

A good essay to read about this is Unthinking Sex:Marx,Engles and the scene of writing by Andrew Parker. Some moments are rather crappy as the author makes some very questionable assertions but it has some interesting points.
Can I find it free somewhere?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Can I find it free somewhere?

Here you go...

http://books.google.com/books?id=S58X00tIM6oC&pg=PA19&dq=Unthinking+Sex:+Engles,Marx+and+the+Scene+of+Wr iting&hl=en&ei=zTp5TunjFKXZ0QGX3bTCAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

[unfriendly]

Probably largely the same thing I do here when it comes to issues of mental disabilities: try to participate, and end up derailing most every conversation I'm in to be about my oppression.

To that end:

Can we stop conflating phobias with bigotry? It really does make a conversation hard to follow and participate in when we start acting like they're the same thing. I have phobias and I have ingrained bigoted attitudes and I can assure you they are quite different. Phobias cause me to have an intense and violent internal reaction; my heart starts racing, my hair stands on end, I start hallucinating and having flashbacks. I have had psychotic breakdowns in response to my phobias. This is far more unpleasant for me than it is whatever I'm -phobic of, and speaking as a trans person here I'll have no hurt feelings if someone is genuinely afraid of trans people. (In fact, many trans people do end up developing a fear of being seen around non-passing transpeople because, as one example, it hurts their passability and that is not the same thing as being a cissexist bigot, and without being able to talk about that there's nothing we can do about it.)

On the other hand, my own internalized bigoted assumptions about groups of people (for example, I used to hold some very anti-immigrant views) can and have been rationally analyzed and explained and diffused -- if I do or say something to hurt immigrants it is very much a conscious decision. That is NOT SO in the case of a phobia.

Also, it leads to people saying things like this:

Phobias have no place within the far-left or anyone daring to call themselves socialist. which is all kinds of terrible for a person like me to hear.

I do think that combating heterosexism and cissexism in leftist movements is a very noble endeavor (and a large part of why I'm here), I just don't agree with throwing people with mental disabilities under the bus in doing so, as a trans queer person with mental disabilities.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to say that I agree with Iseul. I feel with a lot of these organizations there's almost no effort put into combatting bigotry within the group, just at pointing fingers at other people for being bigoted.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I do think that combating heterosexism and cissexism in leftist movements is a very noble endeavor (and a large part of why I'm here), I just don't agree with throwing people with mental disabilities under the bus in doing so, as a trans queer person with mental disabilities.

You lost me here bud :lol: :laugh:

[unfriendly]

What about what I said was unclear?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

What about what I said was unclear?

Oh,what you said was crystal clear,I just have no idea as to why you would want to keep around the belief that heterosexuals are superior to homosexuals.

(No idea what cissexism is though.The prefix I have never heard of)

[unfriendly]

...What?

I'm using heterosexism as a substitute for homophobia, and cissexism as a substitute for transphobia. Cis- is often used to mean "not trans".

[TheGodlessUtopian]

...What?

I'm using heterosexism as a substitute for homophobia, and cissexism as a substitute for transphobia. Cis- is often used to mean "not trans".

The only thing I am understanding in your posts is that you support the current heterosexist regime and do not see fighting it as a "noble" battle.

[unfriendly]

Why do you say that?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Why do you say that?

Because of your own words (which I encased in bold a few posts up).

If you do not believe in fighting heterosexism than you must,by default,support the oppressive heterosexist government.

[unfriendly]

I said that I think combating heterosexism and cissexism is a good idea. There's a serious mix-up here and I'm not sure where it is?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I said that I think combating heterosexism and cissexism is a good idea. There's a serious mix-up here and I'm not sure where it is?

Hmmmm....I could have sworn that there was a "not" situated within the quote I encased in bold.Maybe I misjudged.If so than I apologize for the useless jabber.

[unfriendly]

Quite alright.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Why do some people see left groups as not prioritizing lgbt rights? I am not challenging this, these people very well may be right, but in my perhaps limited experience, this is not what I have seen.I have been in an ISO branch for a time in which most members were militant lgbt activists (one could of course criticize their approach to these issues). Worker's World is very active in lgbt and specifically trans activism and has covered this extensively in their paper. Leslie Fineberg(a trans activist) has written interesting articles on lgbt oppression from a Marxist perspective.

Socialist Alternative has been very active in lgbt activism as well, although is now prioritizing economic issues such as fighting cutbacks.

I do not know about other the lgbt politics of other left organizations in the US or UK.

What do people who feel excluded think should be done withijh the revolutionary left to more fully support lgbt rights?

[black magick hustla]

Well said. To be frank occasionally that's how I feel like here on RevLeft. For instance in this thread:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/englands-burning-cities-t161308/index.html

You might say I'm being "oversensitive" but why would anyone use the "wife-beating" example towards a trans-woman? To just be sarcastic in that way there is literally a million other examples he could have used. And I'm being blamed and ridiculed for simply raising the point that the said organisation should have explicitly mentioned "LGBT" in their programme. But of course it doesn't officially constitute transphobia at all.

jesus you are a joke. i dont think devrim knew you were a transwoman. in the same way i don't guiltrip white leftists into spinelessness just cuz' i am brown, your opinion is not right just because you are a trans woman, you were splitting hairs and if you understood the history of bordigism or at least tried, rather than trying to score cheap political points against a tendency that is well known you "dislike" i would have been less of an ass. fuck off with the feigned self victimization. oh poor you, some old isolated bordgists in italy failed to list "lgbt" as a token reminder, i am sure you were completely sincere about your sensitivity, rather than showing your pretty evident animosity towards folks who identify with the ultraleft in general. cry me a river iseul

[black magick hustla]

In terms of parties I do not think I have seen one which has explicitly made queer issues a top priority.Even when they do talk about LGBT issues they often mix in other struggles which can be alienating; it just suggests that to the writer queer struggles are so irrelevant that other,more "prevalent" struggles need to be incorporated.


i ask, what do you mean by queer politics. do you mean the liberals railing off about "gay marriage", a thing that is almost inconsequential to people's lives as far as people get a few tax breaks and a "token acceptance" from the state? do you mean people campainging for lbgt politicians? the "lgbt rights movements" has fuck to do with homeless trans colored people that are heroin addled and live in the outskirts of san francisco, in the same sense that "affirmative action" and all the policies of multiculturalism have fuck to do with the colored underclasses (the black working class still lives in ghettos and goes to segregated schools). what do you mean by prioritizing lgbt rights? fuck mexican rights, fuck lgbt rights, fuck black rights, fuck brown rights, the motherfuckers that keep talking about that bullshit have given us nothing except more pain and suffering and more people going insane in segregated shitholes.

[citizen of industry]

I think it is important to have a platform that incorporates all those struggles. We are dealing with oppression. LGBT people are oppressed in this society. Women are oppressed in this society. Minorities are oppressed in this society. Wage-Laborers are oppressed in this society. How about a queer, minority woman who is a wage laborer? This is a person who will fight for social change.

If you want to look at feminism, look at Engel's Origins of Family, Private Property and the State and Lenin On the Emancipation of Women. Read Clara Zetkin. LGBT is tied into women's struggles because it is a threat to the nuclear family, wherein the cost of reproducing the future generation of laborers falls on the family, the unpaid labor of the housewife and not the corporation.

There is no Marxist basis for a party homophobic in nature, because we are fighting for a classless society that provides full freedom for its individuals, including sexual and racial freedom. We seek to abolish the nuclear family and put the community in its place. There are LGBT workers, as there are straight workers. Homophobia is a useful tool of the ruling class to divide workers, as is race.

If you are seeking a party that actually fights for LGBT rights, as opposed to merely paying lip service to them, I would look at socialist-feminist parties (who often have straight men in their ranks as well).

If you find a socialist party that is homophobic, denounce them, leave them or do not join them.

[Devrim]

I think the latter is probably more common in the West, for example people contributing to an environment where lgbt feel silenced or unwelcome. But usually when you call people out on that kind of thing they'll just say you're being oversensitive or imagining things rather than admit they might have internalized some negative feelings towards lgbt people. Which leads to feeling of tokenism like the previous poster mentioned, like they will give you some token acknowledgement when it gets them cred but otherwise you're just supposed to stfu.Well said. To be frank occasionally that's how I feel like here on RevLeft. For instance in this thread:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/englands-burning-cities-t161308/index.html

You might say I'm being "oversensitive" but why would anyone use the "wife-beating" example towards a trans-woman? To just be sarcastic in that way there is literally a million other examples he could have used. And I'm being blamed and ridiculed for simply raising the point that the said organisation should have explicitly mentioned "LGBT" in their programme. But of course it doesn't officially constitute transphobia at all.

The reason that I criticised on that thread is that you were obviously trolling. People can look at it themselves and decide if I am right or wrong.

What you are 'being blamed for' is trolling on a thread about an article from a group you don't like because the article about the riots didn't mention 'LGBT rights'.

If you had done this generally to all articles about the riots and not just this one from a tendency that you don't like, there would have at least been some consistency in your idiocy, but as far as I know there isn't.

Incidentally, I didn't know that you were a trans-woman, but it wouldn't have changed my phrasing if I had. It is a basic example of a loaded question, and was used as such.

Devrim

[Queercommie Girl]

jesus you are a joke. i dont think devrim knew you were a transwoman. in the same way i don't guiltrip white leftists into spinelessness just cuz' i am brown, your opinion is not right just because you are a trans woman, you were splitting hairs and if you understood the history of bordigism or at least tried, rather than trying to score cheap political points against a tendency that is well known you "dislike" i would have been less of an ass. fuck off with the feigned self victimization. oh poor you, some old isolated bordgists in italy failed to list "lgbt" as a token reminder, i am sure you were completely sincere about your sensitivity, rather than showing your pretty evident animosity towards folks who identify with the ultraleft in general. cry me a river iseul

I've stated my gender identity many times on this forum already, including on my profile and in the introduction thread I posted here last year.

If I were a "real woman" you wouldn't have been the fucking ass you are right now. But since I'm only a "trans-woman", which means I'm only a man who is presenting as a woman, I must "act like a man" and "toughen up" and not show any weakness or self-victimise in any way. :rolleyes:

And yes, I would have much more sympathy for you if you were a Black nationalist rather than the pseudo-ultra-leftist shit you espouse.

[Queercommie Girl]

do you mean people campainging for lbgt politicians? the "lgbt rights movements" has fuck to do with homeless trans colored people that are heroin addled and live in the outskirts of san francisco,


Granted, many bourgeois politicians are hypocrites. But then on the other hand what the fuck have you or your organisation ever done for "homeless trans coloured people"? For all their limitations, I see radical reformist politicians like Peter Tatchell in Britain doing a lot more for the LGBT community.

[Queercommie Girl]

Why do some people see left groups as not prioritizing lgbt rights? I am not challenging this, these people very well may be right, but in my perhaps limited experience, this is not what I have seen.I have been in an ISO branch for a time in which most members were militant lgbt activists (one could of course criticize their approach to these issues). Worker's World is very active in lgbt and specifically trans activism and has covered this extensively in their paper. Leslie Fineberg(a trans activist) has written interesting articles on lgbt oppression from a Marxist perspective.

Socialist Alternative has been very active in lgbt activism as well, although is now prioritizing economic issues such as fighting cutbacks.

I do not know about other the lgbt politics of other left organizations in the US or UK.

What do people who feel excluded think should be done withijh the revolutionary left to more fully support lgbt rights?

To be frank, I sometimes feel I'm being discriminated against and bullied right here on RevLeft. Despite repeatedly informing people that I am female, I'm repeatedly labelled and treated like a man here. People constantly expect me to "act manly" and "toughen up" and not show any weakness or self-victimise in any way. Frankly even real-life Marxist organisations like the SWP and CWI generally have a significantly lower occurrance of implicit homophobia and transphobia than a forum that contains ultra-macho gangsta-culture worshipping ultra-leftist scums like RevLeft does. Hell, even an Islamist state like Iran probably has less transphobia in some ways.

Frankly it's not just enough that LGBT people are treated equally, we should also get some kind of affirmative action. Given the disadvantaged backgrounds LGBT people are in, even if when we say something that is excessive, it still doesn't give people the right to be an ass towards us.

To tell you the truth, I've suffered from psychological conditions like anxiety and depression before, and spending a lot of time on RevLeft frankly hasn't helped with this. This is partly why I'm generally spending less time here now. RevLeft isn't a place where people have compassion for the disadvantaged and the relatively weak.

[Queercommie Girl]

The reason that I criticised on that thread is that you were obviously trolling. People can look at it themselves and decide if I am right or wrong.

What you are 'being blamed for' is trolling on a thread about an article from a group you don't like because the article about the riots didn't mention 'LGBT rights'.


Even if I was being sectarian, it is still very different from trolling. Sectarianism is wide-spread on this forum. Witness the tons of "Stalin vs. Trotsky" threads for instance. If you were criticising the Maoists for being homophobic, should I call you "trolling" too?

[El Louton]

It's originally John Lennon :laugh: I just changed it to Lenin

oh yeah! Great song! My mind went blank!

[bricolage]

I've stated my gender identity many times on this forum already, including on my profile and in the introduction thread I posted here last year.

Despite repeatedly informing people that I am female, I'm repeatedly labelled and treated like a man here.
Ok, I'm not trying to be rude here but I think you have a misguided view of how much people actually follow other people that post here. I have never looked at your profile nor did I know you had an introduction thread, I've rarely looked at anyones profile and read maybe two introduction threads, neither of them interest me. I've been posting on here for a fair bit and I know nothing about your gender identity, mainly because I don't read every post on here and don't remember everything I've ever seen anyone write. As opposed to telling you to 'toughen up' because you are not a 'real woman' it is much more the case that you should stop assuming people automatically know everything about you when they respond to a post you make, maybe it would help if you were more polite in explaining this than automatically assuming everyone is out to discriminate against you.

A good example is the 'have you stopped beating your wife incident', which is, as has been stated, a very well known example of a loaded question, this was the second result I got on google; (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html)

A "loaded question", like a loaded gun, is a dangerous thing. A loaded question is a question with a false or questionable presupposition, and it is "loaded" with that presumption. The question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" presupposes that you have beaten your wife prior to its asking, as well as that you have a wife. If you are unmarried, or have never beaten your wife, then the question is loaded. Since this example is a yes/no question, there are only the following two direct answers:


"Yes, I have stopped beating my wife", which entails "I was beating my wife."
"No, I haven't stopped beating my wife", which entails "I am still beating my wife."

Incidentally the last time I asked this to someone they replied "at scrabble? no" and acted a bit too smug for my liking. Such is life.

[bricolage]

Granted, many bourgeois politicians are hypocrites. But then on the other hand what the fuck have you or your organisation ever done for "homeless trans coloured people"? For all their limitations, I see radical reformist politicians like Peter Tatchell in Britain doing a lot more for the LGBT community.
And I see Bill Gates doing more for the poor than 'you or your organisation', what's your point?

[bricolage]

To tell you the truth, I've suffered from psychological conditions like anxiety and depression before, and spending a lot of time on RevLeft frankly hasn't helped with this. This is partly why I'm generally spending less time here now. RevLeft isn't a place where people have compassion for the disadvantaged and the relatively weak.
In general the internet is an impersonal and atomising place and not a good medium on which to deal with psychological disorders. Yet within this revleft is probably far kinder to 'the disadvantaged and the relatively weak' than 99.9% of the internet. If you are serious in suffering with anxiety or depression I would recommend staying offline and trying to spend more time with friends or family.

[Queercommie Girl]

And I see Bill Gates doing more for the poor than 'you or your organisation', what's your point?

The point is that he was criticising "bourgeois LGBT politicians" for being hypocrites because they don't really help the most disadvantaged layers of the LGBT community. (This is his argument) I'm pointing out that he isn't helping these people either.

Just so you know, I very explicitly reject ultra-leftism. My Marxist ideological background is based on a mixture of Maoism, student activism and entryist Trotskyism (i.e. deep entryism in Social Democratic/Labour parties and significant collaboration with Trade Unionism), not tendencies which are to the left of Lenin. So as you can see this would influence my views regarding LGBT activism as well. What people like black magick would consider as "completely reactionary bourgeois activism" I would actually consider as semi-socialist, albeit flawed and incomplete in many ways. I mean this in a very serious sense. There is a major ideological gap here. My gay friend who is a member of ISO explicitly supports the campaign for marriage equality for LGBT people for instance, which black magick dismisses out of hand as "liberal". Conversely, I personally also consider much of the "gangster culture" of the lumpen-proletariat which glorifies violence and ultra-machismo to be reactionary as well.

My disagreement with people like black magick is much more than just personal. It would indeed be somewhat flippant if the only reason I'm annoyed with him is that he has been very rude towards me. It's much deeper than that. If he were a Maoist or a Black Nationalist who is nevertheless still very rude to me (after all even today some Maoists are still homophobic, especially say in China, though Chinese communists are rarely explicitly rude), I would have forgiven me much more easily.

RevLeft has always been full of ideological and sectarian rivalries, and LGBT issues are no exception. It's not just "personal".

Incidentally, I've never seen people like Bill Gates speak in favour of trans rights, especially not for the most disadvantaged layers of trans people.

[Queercommie Girl]

In general the internet is an impersonal and atomising place and not a good medium on which to deal with psychological disorders.


I'm not here to "deal with psychological disorders", this should be quite obvious. I've had psychological issues in the past, it's something that's "in the background", so to speak.

I'm here because I largely believe in Marxism. And as much as I care about LGBT issues, intrinsically speaking LGBT activism isn't actually my primary concern. (Which is why I'm able to work with Maoists who are still somewhat queerphobic, for instance)

But yeah I generally find real-life interaction with Marxists (or even one-to-one chat with a Marxist friend) to be of a higher quality than interacting with Marxists on a forum.



Yet within this revleft is probably far kinder to 'the disadvantaged and the relatively weak' than 99.9% of the internet.
Probably more so than the majority. But "99.9%" is too much of an exaggeration. Much better than Stormfront or a Christian fundamentalist forum for LGBT people for sure, but clearly not as LGBT-friendly as a specialised gay forum such as "QueerUK" or specialised LGBT support forums.

But ok, fair enough, criticising RevLeft as a whole is probably unwarranted. After all, different forums do very different jobs.



If you are serious in suffering with anxiety or depression I would recommend staying offline and trying to spend more time with friends or family.
I'm not suffering from anxiety or depression at the very moment. (Otherwise I wouldn't even be here) It's just something in the background because I've suffered these in the past. But your advice of "spending more time with family" wouldn't work for me since my parents are generally queerphobic (though not viciously so - by "not vicious" what I mean is that they won't literally drive me out of the house so that I would become literally homeless even if they do discover that I am transgendered and bisexual) and even though I still live with them, I'm still "in the closet" so to speak. And frankly occasionally (not frequent) the way my dad shouts at me can make me feel even worse than whatever conflicts I've had with other people in cyberspace.

But fortunately I do have a few good queer friends, (and straight people who support queer rights) who are by and large socialists and Marxists as well.

[Vanguard1917]

To be frank, I sometimes feel I'm being discriminated against and bullied right here on RevLeft. Despite repeatedly informing people that I am female, I'm repeatedly labelled and treated like a man here. People constantly expect me to "act manly" and "toughen up" and not show any weakness or self-victimise in any way.

I didn't realise women on Revleft were supposed be treated like delicate little flowers.

[Queercommie Girl]

I didn't realise women on Revleft were supposed be treated like delicate little flowers.

Did I ever say that? So I guess in your mind anything which is not explicitly rude and gangsta-like must be a kind of "delicate flower"...:rolleyes:

Is it really virtuous to be (or more aptly put appears to be) "ultra-tough"?

I guess you must have disliked TC too. As much as I disagree with her on many issues, a lot of her general critique against RevLeft do make some sense.

[unfriendly]

Also, "nobody told me you were a girl" is a kind of ridiculous thing to be saying, since you can't just GO AROUND ASSUMING EVERYONE IS A MAN. Half the world's population is a girl or something along those lines, maybe show some respect?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

i ask, what do you mean by queer politics. do you mean the liberals railing off about "gay marriage", a thing that is almost inconsequential to people's lives as far as people get a few tax breaks and a "token acceptance" from the state? do you mean people campainging for lbgt politicians? the "lgbt rights movements" has fuck to do with homeless trans colored people that are heroin addled and live in the outskirts of san francisco, in the same sense that "affirmative action" and all the policies of multiculturalism have fuck to do with the colored underclasses (the black working class still lives in ghettos and goes to segregated schools). what do you mean by prioritizing lgbt rights? fuck mexican rights, fuck lgbt rights, fuck black rights, fuck brown rights, the motherfuckers that keep talking about that bullshit have given us nothing except more pain and suffering and more people going insane in segregated shitholes.

When have I ever said anything about liberals or the bourgeoisie? My entire point is about a radical queer movement which is separate from the "support" given by the liberals.

http://books.google.com/books?id=S58X00tIM6oC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Fear+of+a+Queer+Planet&hl=en&ei=CDt6Tub6EPHI0AH62qCsAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Vanguard1917]

Did I ever say that? So I guess in your mind anything which is not explicitly rude and gangsta-like must be a kind of "delicate flower"...:rolleyes:

Is it really virtuous to be (or more aptly put appears to be) "ultra-tough"?

No, i hate fake online macho crap as well. But surely it's not particularly beneficial to you to ask for special treatment and wallow in your newly assumed identity of victimhood?

[Queercommie Girl]

But surely it's not particularly beneficial to you to ask for special treatment and wallow in your newly assumed identity of victimhood?


I'm talking about affirmative action. Is that "special treatment" for you? Certain groups of people are much more disadvantaged than others, that's a fact. Should this be white-washed over in the name of some kind of artificial concept of "equality"? People who think race, sex, sexuality etc should all be "forgotten" have obviously forgotten about racism, sexism, queerphobia...

I'm not subjectively "assuming an identity of victimhood" at all. But at the same time I'm not going to deliberately deny that I come from a relatively disadvantaged background due to many reasons either. (Though I also realise there are many people who are even more disadvantaged than I am)

The funny thing is that I once had a debate with someone who supports capitalism. He told me that the Marxist notion of "workers being heavily oppressed by capitalists" is a form of "self-victimisation". Rather than blaming the capitalists of Apple and Foxconn for the workers' suicides in China, wouldn't it be better to blame it on the "psychological weakness" of the workers themselves? :rolleyes:

[black magick hustla]

The funny thing is that I once had a debate with someone who supports capitalism. He told me that the Marxist notion of "workers being heavily oppressed by capitalists" is a form of "self-victimisation". Rather than blaming the capitalists of Apple and Foxconn for the workers' suicides in China, wouldn't it be better to blame it on the "psychological weakness" of the workers themselves? :rolleyes:

oh fuck off. the "self-victimization" has fuck to do with you being a trans and everything to do with you trolling a thread with some nonsense, and then because you don't have the intellectual integrity or capacity to defend your viewpoint honestly (which was really just you being an asshat because of political differences, as you basically said in this thread) you make up this fantasy accusations like me being mean to you because you are a "man pretending a woman". i hate when people in the left do shit like that and i don't accept it.

[Queercommie Girl]

oh fuck off. the "self-victimization" has fuck to do with you being a trans and everything to do with you trolling a thread with some nonsense, and then because you don't have the intellectual integrity or capacity to defend your viewpoint honestly (which was really just you being an asshat because of political differences, as you basically said in this thread) you make up this fantasy accusations like me being mean to you because you are a "man pretending a woman". i hate when people in the left do shit like that and i don't accept it.

Sectarian argumentation is the norm on RevLeft. Why do you have to be so rude? Take your gangsta crap elsewhere.

Maybe you are not mean to me because you think I'm a "man pretending a woman". Maybe you are mean to me simply because I am a girl. Or better yet, maybe you are just mean to me, period. Regardless of why you are mean to me, why be a fu*cking asshole in the first place? Is this what you think "socialist culture" should be like?

BTW, you are the one who said things like what do you mean by prioritizing lgbt rights? fuck mexican rights, fuck lgbt rights, fuck black rights, fuck brown rights...I guess for you "pure workerism" in the most dogmatic sense is all there is to Marxist politics...

I've had enough of this ultra-macho ultra-competitive sh*it. I concede defeat in this, ok? :rolleyes: I'm not as "macho" as you are. Now go and rut somewhere else...

[Invader Zim]

If you want to get technical, it wasn't Marxism-Leninism that was homophobic, it was one of Stalin's personal decisions.

So arguing about this is totally irrelevant and pointless.


Well, I never criticised Marxism-Leninism as being a homophobic ideology, I criticised Stalin's ultyra-reactionary regime as being homophobic. And given that you uphold this ultra-reactionary homophobic regime, arguing about it is both relevent and has an obvious point.

[black magick hustla]

I've had enough of this ultra-macho ultra-competitive sh*it. I concede defeat in this, ok? :rolleyes: I'm not as "macho" as you are. Now go and rut somewhere else...

edit: ugh im sorry need to chill out

[Queercommie Girl]

You made some pretty hurtful accusations that are worse than whatever i told you


Like what exactly? I just said a plain "fuck you" to Devrim, and that wasn't even directed at you.



now that you cant defend your accusations (i.e. that i was basically bullying you because you were a transwoman and that i was trying to minimize your problems and calling you oversensitive


The bottom line is that I can't read your mind. As a Chinese saying goes: "Human hearts are separated by layers of skin". I don't know exactly what you are thinking. What I do know though is that you are being very hostile to me, for no good reason. Political debate is political debate, getting personal is a different matter. Fundamentally, my intrinsic accusation against you is that you are behaving like an ass*hole, but only you yourself know exactly how you are being an ass*hole.



because i dont think queer issues are big, hence why you linked to the thread on il programa comunista


Well, that's some of what you explicitly said sounded like.



you make everything about how you are so oppressed and i am just a mean gangsta.


Am I not oppressed? Are you kidding, *comrade*? If I were not oppressed why would I even be here? Am I a rich daughter of a billionnaire who has got nothing better to do than to pretend to be a poor proletarian and maybe fuck a few interesting and manly specimens of the proletarian class? :rolleyes: Even if I were a white heterosexual non-immigrant cis-gendered male, I would still be heavily oppressed simply due to my class status.

And I didn't say you are a "gangsta", I said you sounded like one.



go fuck yourself, you are a snake


Thanks but no thanks. Masturbation isn't as fun as the real thing. :rolleyes: Speaking as a girl, I think you do have an attractive side as a man. If only our ideological stances weren't so different...then you would know what my true venom tastes like...:rolleyes:

[HEAD ICE]

iseul = corny

[black magick hustla]

[QUOTE Speaking as a girl, I think you do have an attractive side as a man. If only our ideological stances weren't so different...then you would know what my true venom tastes like..[/QUOTE]

omg

[bricolage]

Probably more so than the majority. But "99.9%" is too much of an exaggeration. Much better than Stormfront or a Christian fundamentalist forum for LGBT people for sure, but clearly not as LGBT-friendly as a specialised gay forum such as "QueerUK" or specialised LGBT support forums.
Well I think it's quite obvious I wasn't making a point of statistical truth but yes I'd say 99.9%, try every political forum, every music forum, every newspaper website, and so forth, forums such as QueerUK are firmly in the 0.1%.
(Although on a quick glance at QueerUK on a thread on the London riots someone wrote "Where does most of the gang, knife and gun crime stem from in this country? Its the young black youth. You don't see white kids, or polish kids, or Chinese kids involved in this sort of thing." so hardly complete 'compassion for the disadvantaged'.)


But your advice of "spending more time with family" wouldn't work for me

But fortunately I do have a few good queer friends, (and straight people who support queer rights) who are by and large socialists and Marxists as well.
Which is why I said 'or friends'.

[bricolage]

Also, "nobody told me you were a girl" is a kind of ridiculous thing to be saying, since you can't just GO AROUND ASSUMING EVERYONE IS A MAN. Half the world's population is a girl or something along those lines, maybe show some respect?
Actually Iseuls resentment was towards being told to 'toughen up' (which noone said) because she is not a 'real woman' (which no one said) and instead has repeatedly stated (which I doubt many have seen) she is a trans-woman (who do not make up half the worlds population). And that Devrim should not have posed the 'have you stopped beating your wife question' despite the fact that had nothing to do with Iseuls sexual identity and everything to do with it being a commonly used example of a loaded question that a cursory search on google would indicate.

[ZeroNowhere]

Well said. To be frank occasionally that's how I feel like here on RevLeft. For instance in this thread:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/englands-burning-cities-t161308/index.html

You might say I'm being "oversensitive" but why would anyone use the "wife-beating" example towards a trans-woman? To just be sarcastic in that way there is literally a million other examples he could have used.
No, there aren't, or at least not as many examples which are widely recognized paradigm cases and which would function in the same manner without explanation.


No I am pretty sure it was Marx,I believe he called someone along the lines of "ass fucker." ...if that's not homophobic I don't now what is.If that is the paragon of homophobia, I'm not sure why you see it as such an issue.

[Queercommie Girl]

(Although on a quick glance at QueerUK on a thread on the London riots someone wrote "Where does most of the gang, knife and gun crime stem from in this country? Its the young black youth. You don't see white kids, or polish kids, or Chinese kids involved in this sort of thing." so hardly complete 'compassion for the disadvantaged'.)


Well not defending QueerUK or anything but I don't think that particular opinion is representative of the entire forum board at all, though of course QueerUK isn't really a political forum at all. (But AFAIK the majority of the people there are either left-wing or left-leaning, revolutionaries of course are few in number, as would be the case with 99.9% of all regular forums out there - not trying to be statistically precise in any pedantic way)

Also, ideologically I'm also critical of the riots in many ways, since I disagree with ultra-leftist adventurism.

[Queercommie Girl]

Actually Iseuls resentment was towards being told to 'toughen up' (which noone said) because she is not a 'real woman' (which no one said) and instead has repeatedly stated (which I doubt many have seen) she is a trans-woman (who do not make up half the worlds population). And that Devrim should not have posed the 'have you stopped beating your wife question' despite the fact that had nothing to do with Iseuls sexual identity and everything to do with it being a commonly used example of a loaded question that a cursory search on google would indicate.


I think "resentment" is too strong a word certainly, but I was over-reacting somewhat, though I think in this case English being my 2nd language also played a part...

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Despite repeatedly informing people that I am female, I'm repeatedly labelled and treated like a man here. People constantly expect me to "act manly" and "toughen up" and not show any weakness or self-victimise in any way.

Why should it matter if you are a female or a male? Why should you need to inform? And why would anyone be treated differently because they are (it is true that they are, sometimes horny males like to suck up to females and whatnot, but that is also reprehensible). I'm not sure exactly what "acting-manly" entails or whether anyone has seriously suggested that, but to think that you should be treated differently due to gender frankly strikes me as very disagreeable and reinforcing undesirable sexist and gender-separatist ideas that prevail.

This is the internet, and no one really knows much of anything about the others, and frankly everyone should be assumed to be of any gender and treated no differently. This obviously becomes much more complex in reality and would take a lot longer to do do something about, but that I think is only peripherally related.

[RED DAVE]

what exactly is wrong with being a homophobic communist organization. What i feel is that a lot of you soft wanna be communists on this forum are always trying to combine the idea of sexuality to communism. Just like a lot of you people actually think a communist revolution can occur without violence so you just sit here writing on the website. Nothing wrong with being a communist and a homophobic individual.Have you ever considered having aerial intercourse with Earth's large, natural satellite?

RED DAVE

[TheGodlessUtopian]

If that is the paragon of homophobia, I'm not sure why you see it as such an issue.

I never said that was the paragon of homophobia so please do not put words in my mouth, and secondly Marx (or Engles) said it about a known gay man.One must remember that this was back during when these issues weren't as prevalent so that was a very strong statement.

What don't you see as an issue?

[Die Neue Zeit]

What would you say is the best response for a queer Marxist when he/she encounters a Marxist organisation that is homophobic and/or transphobic? How should such a situation be dealt with?

This is a general/generic question rather than a specific/personal one.

It's a tough balancing act between tackling non-class oppression and alienation, on the one hand, and sinking to the level of liberal or faux-radical Identity Politics on the other.

A worker-class left organization should have an explicit Anti-Discrimination Conduct and rigorous education and enforcement on this, from candidate members to long-time veterans:

1) Against negative discrimination based on race, along with more typical racism
2) Against negative discrimination based on sex, along with more typical sexism
3) For a woman's legal rights over the fetus in the absence of high-quality incubators / artificial uteruses and of a well-developed public orphanage and adoption system (sorry for not saying "right to choose") (http://www.revleft.com/vb/public-orphanages-dangerous-t146796/index.html)
4) Against homophobia
5) Against transphobia
6) Etc.

However, the extent of incorporating this into agitational platforms and (more educational) political programs is debatable.

[Vanguard1917]

I'm talking about affirmative action.

You want 'affirmative action' on an internet debating forum? What would that entail? Something along the lines of: Queercommie Girl is a sexual minority who we have to be gentle with 'cos she's bound to be a little irrational in debates as a result of her fragile and oppressed status...?

[FuzzypegX]

This has gotten wildly off topic and far too personal (see: pointless and boring). Kudos to Die Neue Zeit for trying to get it back on track.

A couple of people have trotted out (no pun intended) the familiar "Stalin was a homophobe" remark. This is only true up to a point. Occasionally this point is defended by Marxist-Leninists on the grounds that "Stalin was from a poor background etc." which is... not dubious exactly, since it has been suggested by a number of studies that homophobia increases in inverse proportion to socio-economic status... but largely pointless as an argument. Far more to the point is the fact that dominant scientific and medical position at the time (worldwide, not just in the Soviet Union) was that homosexuality was "unnatural" and "undesirable".

When homosexuality was legalized in the Soviet Union under Lenin it was as part of a "bonfire of bourgeois legislation", which also included, for example, legal statutes on age of consent (i.e. pedophilia was also legalized) and not necessarily as part of a conscious "queer friendly" agenda. Certain ludicrous organizations, in particular the Sparticists, have subsequently used this as evidence that Marxists should oppose age of consent legislation (an idea so absurd and abhorrent that I should hope it requires no real debate).

When the CPSU(B) recriminalised homosexuality it was: a.) based on the dominant scientific/medical opinion at the time which we touched upon above b.) as part of a pro-family economic initiative.

I don't think it's correct to say "Stalin was a homophobia". Society in general was "homophobic" at this time, Stalin was merely a product of it, and I don't think there's a vast amount of evidence to support the idea that Lenin or anyone else in the Bolsheviks had a markedly more progressive position.

As an LGBT individual, naturally, I demand that any Marxist-Leninist organization should have a staunch pro-LGBT position, but you have to put the failures of other/previous M-L's and M-L organizations to do so in their proper context.

[Queercommie Girl]

Why should it matter if you are a female or a male? Why should you need to inform? And why would anyone be treated differently because they are (it is true that they are, sometimes horny males like to suck up to females and whatnot, but that is also reprehensible). I'm not sure exactly what "acting-manly" entails or whether anyone has seriously suggested that, but to think that you should be treated differently due to gender frankly strikes me as very disagreeable and reinforcing undesirable sexist and gender-separatist ideas that prevail.

This is the internet, and no one really knows much of anything about the others, and frankly everyone should be assumed to be of any gender and treated no differently. This obviously becomes much more complex in reality and would take a lot longer to do do something about, but that I think is only peripherally related.

I think I have the right to explicitly present myself as female on this forum simply because I wish so and for people to respect my decision to do so and not simply treat me as of "any gender", especially since I have limited means to express my gender identity in real-life. (Being in the closet at home, etc...)

(One reason I spend so much time online (and not just on RevLeft at all) is because objectively (and not due to any fault of my own) I simply do not have the material means to live as my desired gender at the moment in real-life)

People have as much right to explicitly present themselves as any gender as they have if they don't want to disclose their gender at all.

I'm not saying I should be treated in a "special way" intrinsically, that's not what "affirmative action" fundamentally means. But people should realise that the entire system of the world (leftist forums included) is basically stacked against LGBT people in more than one way, and not "talk me down" or explicitly or implicitly discriminate against me in any way when they interact with me.

However, it's true that the "default position" on the Internet is pretty much a "genderless" one, so I can't really blame people for not recognising my gender if all I did was mentioning it in an introductory thread from a year ago and in a corner on my forum profile. (And occasionally on some threads) This is partly why I changed my username so there is no longer any ambiguity.

[Queercommie Girl]

You want 'affirmative action' on an internet debating forum? What would that entail? Something along the lines of: Queercommie Girl is a sexual minority who we have to be gentle with 'cos she's bound to be a little irrational in debates as a result of her fragile and oppressed status...?


I was talking about "affirmative action" in a general sense, and not just a personal one. And it would include not talking down to me like what you are doing now.

This is not just any random "internet debating forum", it's also a Marxist forum. So how about actually apply the socialist values of anti-discrimination to the fullest extent here? (If you actually agree that anti-transphobia should be included within "socialist anti-discrimination", that is)

Honestly all I want is for people to not treat me any different from any cis-gendered female members here, and frankly any rational person can see that is really not asking a lot at all. So for instance if you deliberately act in a less confrontational way when debating with female members on RevLeft then you should act in the same way towards me. But of course if you act in exactly the same way towards male and female members on RevLeft in general anyway, then I'm not looking for any "special treatment" either. I just don't want to considered as a "fake woman" by people.

Objectively I am a heavily oppressed person, not least because I'm my economic/class position. (I'm very poor) This is simply a fact which cannot be denied rationally at all. If you want to call the acknowledgement of one's own oppressed status "self-victimisation" then fine so be it, I don't really give a damn anymore. (Yes I am indeed a "victim" of the system, happy now? :rolleyes:) But from my understanding of Marxist political theory, the acknowledgement of one's own oppressed status is often the beginning of all revolutionary activity. Genuine Marxists aren't "knights in shining armour" who are "fighting the good fight" for other people, genuine Marxists are those who fight for themselves in solidarity with other oppressed peoples. If your understanding of the concept of "vanguardism" is some modern kind of "knights in shining armour" who are fighting on behalf of other people, then I am not such a vanguard. I am a Marxist primarily because I am fighting for myself in solidarity with other oppressed peoples.

If one is not oppressed at all, why is one even a Marxist? Why does one even need to come here to RevLeft? It is frankly inexplicable for me. Marxism only makes sense from the viewpoint of the oppressed.

And frankly what is wrong with showing some compassion to a fellow oppressed person who is also fighting against the system? Compassion is a part of solidarity and comradeship.

[ZeroNowhere]

I never said that was the paragon of homophobia so please do not put words in my mouth
You pretty much did, actually.


and secondly Marx (or Engles) said it about a known gay man.Was Hasselmann even homosexual? It's not as if it's an inaccurate assessment of the bloke.

(From what I've read, it was Engels, though. They both disparaged Hasselmann fairly frequently, however.)


A good essay to read about this is Unthinking Sex:Marx,Engles and the scene of writing by Andrew Parker. Some moments are rather crappy as the author makes some very questionable assertions but it has some interesting points. 'Crappy' is an amusing way to describe it, given its content.


This is not just any random "internet debating forum", it's also a Marxist forum.Technically speaking, no it's not.


Honestly all I want is for people to not treat me any different from any cis-gendered female members here, and frankly any rational person can see that is really not asking a lot at all.And Devrim just asked you when you stopped beating your wife. That is not asking for a lot, either.


This has gotten wildly off topic and far too personal (see: pointless and boring). Kudos to Die Neue Zeit for trying to get it back on track.DNZ's post was about DNZ. DNZ is not the topic. DNZ is a more interesting topic than Iseul, so perhaps they should be applauded for trying to improve the thread.

[Queercommie Girl]

And Devrim just asked you when you stopped beating your wife. That is not asking for a lot, either.


I fail to see the relevance at all, unless this is just a cheap (and failed) attempt at sarcasm.



DNZ's post was about DNZ. DNZ is not the topic. DNZ is a more interesting topic than Iseul, so perhaps they should be applauded for trying to improve the thread.


I began this thread to talk about LGBT issues in general, many people have joined in since, including DNZ.

[Red Economist]

(What I've read around the Subject is limited to Wilhelm Reich's "The Sexual Revolution". This book is still radical in terms of sexual politics as it covers child and adolscent sexuality).

Homosexuality was legal in the Soviet Union from 1917 (after scrapping Tsarist Legislation) to 1934 (when it was re-criminalised). it was the first country to legalise homosexuality in modern times. the tsarist legislation was scrapped because it wasen't felt to be a political question, but a scientific one (in terms of mental health and psychology). this is admittedly pretty luke warm.

however, A fairly solid argument can be made for the legalisation of Homosexuality in this context based on accepting the 'abolition of the family'. This is because the family 'regulates' sexual relations as an economic relationship.

I.e. The family is a legal-economic relationship based on private property through marriage (husband-wife) and inheritence (parents-children). it is essentially a form of 'private childcare' (as opposed to a 'commune' in which children are a collective responsibility) in which bringing up children becomes the economic responsibility of the parents.

Sexual relations must fit the economic requirements of a monogamous relationship based on private property. As the Family is a form of private child care, Sex is ideologically linked exclusively to 'procreation' not to 'pleasure' or the psychologically necessary satisfication of the instinctual drives. This leads to 'Sex-negative attitudes' which discriminate any other sexual relations based on it being 'unnatural' etc.

Sexual issues were dealt with during the early period of the Soviet Union, and (probably, as I haven't read anything from the time) during the 1960's and 70's in the New Left which broadened the scope of discussion beyond exclusively economic and political 'class struggle'.

The criminalisation of homosexuality in the Soviet Union was justified by claiming it was Bourgeois and/or Fascist (based on associating it with the homosexuality in the Nazi Party, such as Ernst Rohm, head of the SA. This was before the Nazis clamped down on homosexuality in their own ranks). As Far as I know, this is still roughly the same justification used against homosexuals in Marxist-Leninst organisations, and probably maoist ones too.

If your in a Trotskyist Organisation you could argue that this 'sexual reaction' was part of the move away from socialism by Stalin. (Wilhelm Riech and Trotsky shared similar views on Stalin and were in contact in the later part of the 1930's, but it wasen't big or serious).

your best bet is really to move to a libertarian marxist organisation which is ok with homosexuality.

[Queercommie Girl]

Even if Marx was somewhat homophobic, so what? Does it really matter? Who cares? Marx was not a "holy man" or a "prophet" who never made mistakes. The validity of the general principles of Marxist political economy doesn't change. The fact that homophobia is wrong doesn't change. Marxists follow Marxist ideas in political economy, they don't "worship" the personhood of Marx. (Frankly there are a lot of things in the personality of Marx which I don't really like at all, if I met the man in real-life I doubt we would become good friends) I hate those who treat Marxist texts like the Bible, Marx like Jesus, and Marxism like Christian fundamentalism. The reactionary implications of Christianity and Christian ways of thinking for workers and intellectuals are hard to dislodge sometimes.

[FuzzypegX]

your best bet is really to move to a libertarian marxist organisation which is ok with homosexuality.

I don't see any reason to move to a libertarian Marxist organisation (I also happen to think that libertarian Marxism is a contradiction in terms - but that's a different debate for a different topic). Most modern Marxist organisations have a progressive position on homosexuality, including most Marxist-Leninist organisations.

The Freedom Road Socialist Organisation in the USA, for example, is incredibly hot on the LGBT issue. In the UK, CPGB-ML, of which I am a member, also has a progressive stance on homosexuality, although it broadly considers it to be a subordinate issue to the class struggle (which I consider to be the correct stance).

[Queercommie Girl]

The Freedom Road Socialist Organisation in the USA, for example, is incredibly hot on the LGBT issue.


Isn't FRSO Maoist?

[FuzzypegX]

Isn't FRSO Maoist?

There's two groups called Freedom Road Socialist Organization which split from one unified group... also called Freedom Road Socialist Organization. The one to which I was referring is Marxist-Leninist (following the teachings of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin and Mao) the other is Maoist.

It's a confusing and irritating split, but there you have it.

frso.org

^ That's the M-L one.

freedomroad.org

^ That's the Maoist one. I don't know what their position on homosexuality is, nor do I care.

[Luís Henrique]

Fidel's regime certainly wasn't/isn't Marxist.

And he is no true Scotsman either.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

What would you say is the best response for a queer Marxist when he/she encounters a Marxist organisation that is homophobic and/or transphobic? How should such a situation be dealt with?

Depends on specifics. Would you be in it, or just wondering whether you should join it? Would it be the only Marxist organisation available, or would there be alternatives (and would they be just as homophobic, or less so, or not at all)? Would homophobia be the only issue at stake, or would it be one among several problems of that organisation? Would it be actively proposing discrimination of homosexuals, or just pretending that the issue isn't an issue? And where would it be based, in a country with no tradition of gay rights movements, or...?

Depending on those, the answer could vary between "keep distance, and denounce it as counter-revolutionary" and "fight within it, to mend its ways".

Luís Henrique

[FuzzypegX]

Fidel has subsequently recanted and apologized for his earlier homophobia.

From a Mexican interview last year:

"Fidel doesn’t shy away from the topic. He doesn’t deny nor reject the claim. He only asks for time to remember – he says – how and when prejudice took over the revolutionary ranks.

Five decades ago, based on homophobia, homosexuals were marginalized in Cuba and many were sent to agricultural-military labor camps accusing them of being 'counterrevolutionaries.'

- Yes, he remembers, it was a time of great injustice – A great injustice! – he repeats emphatically – no matter who did it. If it was us who did it, us… I am trying to define my responsibility in all that because, of course, I don’t hold that type of prejudice.

It is known that among his oldest of friends, there are homosexuals.

- But then, how was that hatred against the ‘different’ established?

He believes all was the result of a spontaneous reaction in the revolutionary ranks, which came from tradition. In earlier Cuba blacks were not the only ones discriminated against; women were also discriminated and, of course, homosexuals…

- Yes, yes. But not in the Cuba of the ‘new’ morality, the pride of those revolutionaries on the inside and on the outside…

- Who, then, was directly or indirectly responsible for not putting a stop to what was happening in Cuban society? The Party? Because the Communist Party of Cuba still does not ‘explicitly’ ban discrimination based on sexual orientation.

- No – says Fidel – If someone is responsible, it’s me…"

[Queercommie Girl]

your best bet is really to move to a libertarian marxist organisation which is ok with homosexuality.


Honestly based on my experience of contact with real-life Marxist organisations, every contemporary Marxist party, including the most hardcore "Stalinist-apologist" ones, are generally more friendly and supportive towards LGBT people than an online forum like RevLeft.

An online forum is really one of the worst places to seriously conduct any kind of Marxist politics.

[FuzzypegX]

An online forum is really one of the worst places to seriously conduct any kind of Marxist politics.

Truer words were never spoken.

[Devrim]

Homosexuality was legal in the Soviet Union from 1917 (after scrapping Tsarist Legislation) to 1934 (when it was re-criminalised). it was the first country to legalise homosexuality in modern times.

This isn't factually correct. The first country to legalise homosexuality was France in 1791. By 1917 homosexuality had already been decriminalised in France, Andorra, Holland, Indonesia, Brazil, Portugal (between 1852-66), the Ottoman Empire, Timor, San Marino, Japan, Italy, and Argentina.

Devrim

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I think I have the right to explicitly present myself as female on this forum simply because I wish so and for people to respect my decision to do so and not simply treat me as of "any gender", especially since I have limited means to express my gender identity in real-life. (Being in the closet at home, etc...)

(One reason I spend so much time online (and not just on RevLeft at all) is because objectively (and not due to any fault of my own) I simply do not have the material means to live as my desired gender at the moment in real-life)

People have as much right to explicitly present themselves as any gender as they have if they don't want to disclose their gender at all.

I'm not saying I should be treated in a "special way" intrinsically, that's not what "affirmative action" fundamentally means. But people should realise that the entire system of the world (leftist forums included) is basically stacked against LGBT people in more than one way, and not "talk me down" or explicitly or implicitly discriminate against me in any way when they interact with me.

However, it's true that the "default position" on the Internet is pretty much a "genderless" one, so I can't really blame people for not recognising my gender if all I did was mentioning it in an introductory thread from a year ago and in a corner on my forum profile. (And occasionally on some threads) This is partly why I changed my username so there is no longer any ambiguity.

Obviously you can present yourself in any way, but the way you say it implies that you think women ought to be treated differently, "not just treat me as any gender". I don't treat people differently depending on their gender, but you seem to demand you be (not necessarily in a special way, but a different way nevertheless), so, what does this exactly entail, this way you wish to be treated in?


(What I've read around the Subject is limited to Wilhelm Reich's "The Sexual Revolution". This book is still radical in terms of sexual politics as it covers child and adolscent sexuality).

The "orgone"-rifle (lol orgasm energy) for fighting the alien invasion-guy? I hope not.

[Queercommie Girl]

Obviously you can present yourself in any way, but the way you say it implies that you think women ought to be treated differently, "not just treat me as any gender". I don't treat people differently depending on their gender, but you seem to demand you be (not necessarily in a special way, but a different way nevertheless), so, what does this exactly entail, this way you wish to be treated in?

No, I think there is a misunderstanding here, so let me re-iterate:

I just wish to subjectively self-identify as female on RevLeft, and however women are treated here on RevLeft, I want to be treated likewise too. But I'm not asking for any kind of specific treatment intrinsically.

Incidentally I did "get hit on" by a few guys here in the past (in a joking way only), and I don't really mind that either, as long as they don't get too annoying.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

No, I think there is a misunderstanding here, so let me re-iterate:

I just wish to subjectively self-identify as female on RevLeft, and however women are treated here on RevLeft, I want to be treated likewise too. But I'm not asking for any kind of specific treatment intrinsically.

Incidentally I did "get hit on" by a few guys here in the past (in a joking way only), and I don't really mind that either, as long as they don't get too annoying.

I think you should be opposed to those that do treat them differently, because it I consider it to be intrinsically sexist and an expression of hypocrisy from their side.

Incidentally someone tried to hit on me, too, until they realised I was ugly. :sneaky:

[Queercommie Girl]

I think you should be opposed to those that do treat them differently, because it I consider it to be intrinsically sexist and an expression of hypocrisy from their side.

Incidentally someone tried to hit on me, too, until they realised I was ugly. :sneaky:

But when it comes to "sex", obviously most guys here would treat men and women differently, and this is unlikely to change in the future, unless you think we can have a world where most people become bisexual. (Which I don't oppose in principle but I think is unrealistic, and at any rate not going to happen for a long time)

I want to be treated sexually like a girl, and this is a significant reason behind my desire for sex change. I don't really want to be treated as a woman in the sense of only taking on stereotypically "women's jobs" etc, when it comes to that I'm largely "genderqueer". (I don't believe in distinct social roles for men and women)

[Queercommie Girl]

she is a trans-woman (who do not make up half the worlds population).

There are actually quite a few trans-women here on RevLeft who are essentially in "stealth mode", because they just want to present as female. (Of course I won't name them) I'm the only one who is being explicit about my (trans-)gender identity.

[Olentzero]

The "orgone"-rifle (lol orgasm energy) for fighting the alien invasion-guy? I hope not.Reich was pretty far-out nuts towards the end of his life, but his early work still carries a lot of influence in modern psychotherapy. He was a member of the Communist Party of Germany for a time in the 1930s (and got booted for being too outspoken). I haven't gotten through his Sexual Revolution completely yet, but as I understand it his argument is that the imposition of morality that directly contradicted human sexual behavior and desires was the root cause of what made people mentally ill.

As for the OP, if I were in that situation I'd fight like hell to try to get the organization to change its politics, and if that proved to be too much, then get the hell out and find another organization that isn't homo- or transphobic. How much is too much depends on you, of course - if you really feel you don't have the fight in you, it may be easier to cut bait and run. On the other hand if the organization seems like it's worth your time apart from this one issue, by all means start a political intervention and see where it gets you.

[Queercommie Girl]

As for the OP, if I were in that situation I'd fight like hell to try to get the organization to change its politics, and if that proved to be too much, then get the hell out and find another organization that isn't homo- or transphobic. How much is too much depends on you, of course - if you really feel you don't have the fight in you, it may be easier to cut bait and run. On the other hand if the organization seems like it's worth your time apart from this one issue, by all means start a political intervention and see where it gets you.


Well the original question is a hypothetical one. In my personal experience, I found that most contemporary Marxist organisations (in the West, at least) are not explicitly queerphobic on an institutional level, but of course implicit queerphobia among individuals exist everywhere.

RevLeft is also completely opposed to homophobia and transphobia on an institutional level in principle, but I think there is actually more implicit prejudice against LGBT people here (witness the number of members who've been banned and/or restricted just for this reason for instance) than among serious real-life political parties.

In Britain the two main parties I've had contacted with are ISO/SWP and CWI. SWP is traditionally more active in LGBT politics and more LGBT-friendly, partly due to its large number of student members, and frankly there is probably more implicit racism within the SWP than implicit queerphobia. But in recent times it has a tendency to "tail" Islamism, which is generally speaking a negative thing for LGBT people.

The CWI is a more traditional trade unionism working class based party so it's not as active in LGBT politics, but it's getting better in this in recent years. There is some degree of implicit prejudice against queer people among certain individuals in the organisation, but nothing very major or vicious.

[Olentzero]

Actually, the CWI here is very queer-positive, to the point where they're part of a group called HBT Socialister (LGBT socialists), which is very active in promoting LGBT politics. I've found that national groups within tendencies vary widely in their day-to-day actions, so I don't think it useful to assess the CWI as a whole based on just one national organization within it. (The IST here, for example, I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole.)

[Queercommie Girl]

Actually, the CWI here is very queer-positive, to the point where they're part of a group called HBT Socialister (LGBT socialists), which is very active in promoting LGBT politics. I've found that national groups within tendencies vary widely in their day-to-day actions, so I don't think it useful to assess the CWI as a whole based on just one national organization within it. (The IST here, for example, I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole.)

The group you speak of is based in Sweden. In the UK the CWI is not as good when it comes to LGBT rights.

[Olentzero]

That was my point.

[Queercommie Girl]

That was my point.

For interest:

http://libcom.org/forums/news/were-militant-now-sp-homophobic-31012006

[Queercommie Girl]

That was my point.

BTW, you might find it interesting to know that CWI branches in certain countries don't even mention LGBT rights. Even the Chinese branch originally didn't mention it, and "sexuality" was only included into the official programme after I insisted this point to one of the leading members of Chinaworker. (I'm not a CWI member, mainly due to ideological differences, but I did quite a bit of work for CWI and Chinaworker in 2008 - 2009)

[Olentzero]

Good on you for getting them to change their tune. It is, in fact, interesting to know that about the CWI and I'll have to follow up on that. Hell, there's a few things about the CWI I have ideological differences on (their opposition to the BDS campaign against Israel being one of the biggest) but here in Sweden they're one of the biggest and most active organizations on the far left and that's the politically important thing right now.

[Sentinel]

It really depends mostly on ones location and the availability of different orgs. Luis, Olentzero and others have put it well.


Actually, the CWI here is very queer-positive, to the point where they're part of a group called HBT Socialister (LGBT socialists), which is very active in promoting LGBT politics.HBT-Socialisterna had a very successful meeting today, where a new campaign for asylum rights of LGBT refugees was planned. So I'm now armed with a book table, ready to get it started. :cool:

But you've probably heard about that already.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

^Sounds cool, North America needs to get a similar group.

[ClearlyChrist]

As Far As My Understanding Goes, Marx Made No Direct Attack On Homosexuals, So This Group That You Are Affiliated With, Certainly Doesn't Contain Real Marxists, At Least In My Mind. As A Side Note, What The Hell Is Wrong With You? There's No Justifying Being Homophobic, Whatsoever, It's Nothing But A Plague That Affects The Ignorant.

[MustCrushCapitalism]

What you'd have to remember is that at the time when Fidel, Che, and most other Communists in history were alive, homosexuals were widely views in the same way as say, pedophiles are viewed today. (Of course, to my knowledge, there is a vast difference between homosexuality and pedophillia, however, I do believe in abstinence therapy as treatment for pedophiles as opposed to inhumane punishment) I'm sure that if any Marxist in history lived today, I'm sure they'd be against discrimination against homosexuals, and no true Marxist would be for such discrimination with the knowledge we have today.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Is it just some members who need educated on the issue or the party as a whole, official policy and all?

[Queercommie Girl]

Is it just some members who need educated on the issue or the party as a whole, official policy and all?


Neither. Obviously virtually all Marxist groups today explicitly state that they support LGBT rights fully. But on the other hand it's not just a matter of a few members who have some mistaken ideas about LGBT issues in an abstract sense. Sometimes a few people would deliberately pick on LGBT comrades, especially trans comrades, but mostly in an implicit sense so it's difficult to explicitly accuse them for being transphobic. I've had personal experience of this, but actually I've found real-life organisations to be generally better than online forums like say RevLeft. I guess it's partly because everyone in real-life organisations is a genuine serious socialist of some sort, but on online forums you get a lot of "armchair theorists", pseudo-intellectuals, pseudo-socialists as well as simple fakes so it's more likely to get discriminated against.

Most real-life socialists (not just LGBT people) I know do not come to RevLeft at all. A few have come and subsequently left, because they say RevLeft isn't really a friendly place.