Leftism and religion

[mrld1630]

Okay so I guess I'm trying to be real sensitive on this issue... I know religion when in the hands of capitalism and the right is an extremly bigoted, dangerious falicy.

But at the same time there are leftists out there (Communists, Socialists, and Anarchists) who adhere to some kind of religion whether it's Judaism, Christianity, or Islam etc.

My question is can religion be a force for good on the left when used to promote universal human rights, anti-fascism, tolerance, good will, liberation, emancipation, and other stuff like that?

[Desperado]

Many religions today and especially in history where progressive in such a way. But we can do such things even better without the superstitious, dogmatic and hierarchical elements of religion - indeed, such elements are often what stand in the way of the principles you list. Not that all religions are equally superstitious, dogmatic nor hierarchical of course, but this is ultimately in their definition.

[StoneFrog]

As much as we need a revolution to bring about change in the mode of production, we need a sort of revolution in religion. Historically religion has to a degree fought for progressive values, but with religion it has also brought through things that are negative to society.

The hierarchy of many religions acts as a sort of government, creating people to become dependent on them, thus removing the power of the consciousness that is required for the masses to unite against capitalism.

Religion imo has no place at the political table, its a thing for the individual not the masses. This "good" you say is best done by bodies of the masses, not based on faith, because we are all individuals and have different religious views, we on the left suffer from enough sectarian BS no need to add more.

I do still encourage people to have a religion if they feel that is what they're comfortable with, but there is a time and place for it. This includes myself, i would never want to be part of an organization that organize along my own spiritual beliefs; because it excludes others.

[thriller]

Jesus was a communist :D

I think religion can help the left when it comes to actions, not politics. If someone is preaching a certain political idea that everyone should follow that is based off religious beliefs, I think it can create a sense of exclusion. But as far as actions go, people can do a lot of good if they take their faith and put it into the physical realm. When all the right wingers around me talk about saving the Christian faith and bombing the Middle East, I always say "Who would Jesus bomb?" They always are at a loss of words. I think peoples OWN interpretation of whatever religion they follow is a good thing to bring to the table, but not the structured talking points of organized religions institutions.

[EvilRedGuy]

No. Religion is not political its just a personal spirituality, it SHOULD NEVER have any effect on the revolutionary left and have no influences and nothing to do with politics. Besides it has a hierarchy with god, prophet, priests and all that crap aswell as reactionary/xenophobic views such as sexism, homophobia, racism, anti-multiculturalism, etc.

Also don't forget this picture, they lie to the masses.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Pyramid_of_Capitalist_System.png

We fool/lie to you. "Religion is the opium of the masses" - Karl Marx.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Well you can be a communist if you are a Christian and not fanatic but do not forget that communism does not intend to have a strong connection with religions.

[Astarte]

During the Middle Ages heretical movements among the poor populations were the most dreaded kind of uprisings the establishment could imagine. Aim High, poke them in the Eye and all.

Ultimately, after a long time, these heretical movements coalesced in the Burgher towns into Masonic-type movements which were able to bring down feudalism and the spiritual hegemony of the Catholic Church and replace them with capitalism and secularism.

In Imperial China, time after time the poor used Millenarianist Taoist and Folk spirituality against corrupt bureaucratic states such as the Yellow Turbans vs. the collapsing Han. Even later such techniques were emulated by the Boxers and the Taiping rebels against the Qing and foreign Imperialists.

[Red Rabbit]

There's too many leftists that can't tell the difference between organized religion and just religion itself. There's a such thing as religion without churches or organization, there's a such thing as "free religion".

An example of such would be a devout christian who doesn't believe that going to church should be apart of his/her worship.

Or for an example of entire religions that work this way; Neopaganism. Most pagan religions didn't have churches or organizations and were free to believe and practice their religion however they wanted, and the modern form of which (Neopaganism) still works the same way to this day.

I believe in a Communist society, all religions would be free and there would be no more organization of religion. Everyone would be free to have their own beliefs without interference from "the church" or other organizations.

[Seresan]

The morals can be appealed to for sure. That is by far the easiest way to rehabilitate the name of Communism (or anarchy, socialism, etc) in my mind, considering the misconceptions a lot of people have about the morality of it all.

Post-revolution, on the other hand, will require a bit of change... Getting rid of some of the hierarchical structure in the different religions and having them replaced with structures more like unions for priests/whatever will be pretty important. Also putting an emphasis on peaceful co-existence between them all will be vital.

Simply outlawing all religion is too Stalin-y for my taste (Yes, I know it wasn't only him) and will gain us a lot of enemies. The Church should have no control over the State (If we go the Marxist route), but the State must beable to exert some fairly non-opressive control over the Church.

[Nox]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Pyramid_of_Capitalist_System.png



Greatest picture ever made.

It totally sums up what Capitalism is all about.

Religion would be alright if it didn't violate human rights and wasn't full of homophobia, sexism and anti-scientific bullshit - which it is and always will be.

Fuck religion.

[Red Rabbit]

Fuck religion.

Religion would be alright if it wasn't full of homophobia, sexism and anti-scientific bullshit - which it is and always will be.

You mean the Abrahamic religions. You should probably educate yourself on some other religions as well, Comrade. They're not all what you think they are.

[Seresan]

Greatest picture ever made.

It totally sums up what Capitalism is all about.

Religion would be alright if it didn't violate human rights and wasn't full of homophobia, sexism and anti-scientific bullshit - which it is and always will be.

Fuck religion.

Religion is more than hypocrytocal Christians and Muslims. It is a really broad area that varys in popularity, ignorance, and hate. Don't bash it all because of a few examples.

Plus.. I bet you'd accept "Christism" if it wasnt already a religion.

[eric922]

For anyone who is interested, Lenin did write some on this subject:http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm

[Commissar Rykov]

As much as we need a revolution to bring about change in the mode of production, we need a sort of revolution in religion. Historically religion has to a degree fought for progressive values, but with religion it has also brought through things that are negative to society.

The hierarchy of many religions acts as a sort of government, creating people to become dependent on them, thus removing the power of the consciousness that is required for the masses to unite against capitalism.

Religion imo has no place at the political table, its a thing for the individual not the masses. This "good" you say is best done by bodies of the masses, not based on faith, because we are all individuals and have different religious views, we on the left suffer from enough sectarian BS no need to add more.

I do still encourage people to have a religion if they feel that is what they're comfortable with, but there is a time and place for it. This includes myself, i would never want to be part of an organization that organize along my own spiritual beliefs; because it excludes others.
This pretty much sums it up. Churches should largely be dismantled post-Reovlution and maybe allow their membership to keep certain things communally so they can still have services but a dismantling of their hierarchy is probably paramount as the leadership in certain Faiths tends to be hella reactionary. Religion IMHO should be a purely private affair and has no part in public discourse and decisions.

[Nox]

Religion is more than hypocrytocal Christians and Muslims. It is a really broad area that varys in popularity, ignorance, and hate. Don't bash it all because of a few examples.

Plus.. I bet you'd accept "Christism" if it wasnt already a religion.

Obviously not all religions are homophobic/sexist/anti-human rights but all of them are anti-scientific.

[Red Rabbit]

Obviously not all religions are homophobic/sexist/anti-human rights but all of them are anti-scientific.

Not true. There are many religions that use science to explain what their religion cannot and vice versa. Just because they don't focus 100% on science, or they use their religion to explain what science can't yet, doesn't mean they're anti-scientific.

There are many progressive Christians even, that use science along with their faith.

I myself am very religious, but I still believe in using scientific fact above all else to explain things.