Occupy Wall Street-Potential?

[RedMarxist]

do you think the Occupy Wall Street movement has any potential? I'd like to hear your opinions. Right now of course it is brand new and I believe is planning to go on for...2 months right.

I, personally, think it does have potential. Does it REALLY have to be a Communist movement...I mean it would be really dumb to disregard this historic movement just because Communists aren't leading it.

Furthermore, I'd just like to say that I am Proud to be an American citizen. Not that I support Capitalism(I don't), but I'm proud of our American Revolution, our founding fathers, and the [many good] things we have done for the world(that is not to say I deny the bad things that plague my country)

[Smyg]

Firstly, why do we need three threads on the subject?

Secondly, I see no potential in it. Really. It seems to be more of a hip liberal thing than an actual movement, and doesn't seem to have gone very well so far.

Thirdly, you're a nationalist. Which isn't cool. Nations overall aren't cool. You have no reason to feel pride over the actions of those long dead, they have nothing to do with you.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Zero class-consciousness equals zero potential. The people there are just bummed cause they're broke at the moment, they aren't looking at the big picture of it for the most part. They say Capitalism is the enemy, but have no goal other than to moan about it rather than to fight it...

[The Douche]

Furthermore, I'd just like to say that I am Proud to be an American citizen. Not that I support Capitalism(I don't), but I'm proud of our American Revolution, our founding fathers, and the [many good] things we have done for the world(that is not to say I deny the bad things that plague my country)

Sorry, this distracted me from dealing with anything else in your post.


Q65KZIqay4E



And fuck the United States.

[Kadir Ateş]

Furthermore, I'd just like to say that I am Proud to be an American citizen. Not that I support Capitalism(I don't), but I'm proud of our American Revolution, our founding fathers, and the [many good] things we have done for the world(that is not to say I deny the bad things that plague my country)

How do you take your Bolshevism, left or national?

[piet11111]

How do you take your Bolshevism, left or national?

So i am to assume saying left or national bolshevism is an accidental comparison with the nazi nazbols ?

He is clearly a (still learning) leftist with very unfortunate nationalist sympathy's but calling him a nazbol is way out of line.

[The Douche]

So i am to assume saying left or national bolshevism is an accidental comparison with the nazi nazbols ?

He is clearly a (still learning) leftist with very unfortunate nationalist sympathy's but calling him a nazbol is way out of line.

If you've been around long enough to make 500 posts I would assume you've been able to develop at least a moderate understanding of internationalism and how socialism relates to it as opposed to patriotism/nationalism.


Furthermore what the fuck does loving 'merica have to do with the occupy wall street protests?

[deLarge]

You have no reason to feel pride over the actions of those long dead, they have nothing to do with you.

Which is why we also shouldn't revere the lives of Marx, Engles, Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Goldman, Kropotkin, Joe Hill, or Yuri Gagarin...

Appropriating existing symbols will work better in the US than trying to write them out of history or denigrate them. Many figures (including Ben Franklin and Abraham Lincoln, see the IWA letter to him) can be construed as progressive figures who, in fighting for bourgeois democracy and national liberation, were instrumental in the inevitable formation of socialism.

[Commissar Rykov]

What is this shit? Seriously Nationalist wankery and what the fuck does it have to do with occupying Wall Street? Fuck.

[Smyg]

Which is why we also shouldn't revere the lives of Marx, Engles, Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Goldman, Kropotkin, Joe Hill, or Yuri Gagarin...

Worship your heroes all you want, just don't feel pride over their actions without having taken any part in them yourself.

[eric922]

First of all, if this occupy Wall Street movement is to have any effect, the people are going to have to be willing to risk some jail time. They need to truly occupy it so that the bankers can't get in the buildings on Monday morning.

Secondly, what the fuck is there to be proud of about being American? I,personally am disgusted by my country. We support dictators the world over, we let our citizens die in the streets, die from lack of healthcare, we have the highest prison population in the world and our prisons are so bad some countries won't even extradite to the U.S. This country makes me sick.

[piet11111]

If you've been around long enough to make 500 posts I would assume you've been able to develop at least a moderate understanding of internationalism and how socialism relates to it as opposed to patriotism/nationalism.


Furthermore what the fuck does loving 'merica have to do with the occupy wall street protests?


I take issue with hinting that RedMarxist might be a nazbol when its obvious he isn't.

That he has nationalist sympathy's is bad but we can be civil about it and patiently explain why he is wrong seeing that he is still learning.

[RedMarxist]

WTH! I can't be a Communist and be proud of my own nation that I was born and raised in!

And why are you disgusted by your own nation, by which I mean mine as well? America was forged in revolution, Bourgeois yes, but still a revolution. We had, for the most part(throughout our history) great leaders whom did do good things, and some bad things(its called being human), but just because "we", by which I think you mean the government, not the people, supported a few dictators over the years automatically = EVIL! BAD! WRONG!

give me a break. And I know full well that Socialism is technically against nationalism, but Dammit I'm proud of my country! What is wrong with that? Cannot one be a Communist and be proud of their nations achievements? Why hate my own country and countrymen?

And concerning the so called "National Bolshevism"(seriously, why does it exist?). I'm not one, although I am sympathetic towards elements of Lenin's theories(far enough that I would call myself a Leninist) and the need for a Bolshevik-style mass workers party(I'm not referring to the post-Revolution Bolshevik party that ruled an authoritarian state, instead I refer to the pre/inter-revolutionary one/Social Democratic Party back before it was called the Bolshevik party)

[W1N5T0N]

People, why don't you make a new sticky:
"NazBol and Why its bad, mmkay".

Otherwise, just answer his question.

[piet11111]

RedMarxist a nation is nothing more then land its the people that live in it that make or break it and if you look at other country's you will find that the people there are just as good as you and your neighbors.

Besides its just arbitrary lines on a map that is why we are internationalists as our interests are the same as everyone else and we must not be divided by the capitalists through nonsensical borders.

[eric922]

WTH! I can't be a Communist and be proud of my own nation that I was born and raised in!

And why are you disgusted by your own nation, by which I mean mine as well? America was forged in revolution, Bourgeois yes, but still a revolution. We had, for the most part(throughout our history) great leaders whom did do good things, and some bad things(its called being human), but just because "we", by which I think you mean the government, not the people, supported a few dictators over the years automatically = EVIL! BAD! WRONG!


I gave you a few reasons I'm disgusted by my country. Here they are again, with a few more: We support brutal dictators all over the world, we let people die in the streets, we let 45,000 a year die from lack of healthcare, we have the highest prison population in the world, in some of the worst prisons in the world, we spent trillions on the military to oppress other countries while the people in our country starves.

When we fix all of that and the standard of living is brought up to the levels of Sweden or Norway, maybe I won't be so disgusted by this bastion of capitalism. Though, I'll never be proud of the U.S. unless it becomes a worker's state. As to the Founding Fathers and other "great" Americans, I suggest reading Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States" to see what those men were really like.

[Commissar Rykov]

RedMarxist a nation is nothing more then land its the people that live in it that make or break it and if you look at other country's you will find that the people there are just as good as you and your neighbors.

Besides its just arbitrary lines on a map that is why we are internationalists as our interests are the same as everyone else and we must not be divided by the capitalists through nonsensical borders.
One must remember the Bourgeois and Capital itself is international it just so happens that Nationalism is a wonderful yoke to throw upon the Proletariat as it keeps them in line and busy with nonsensical ideas of national superiority. It is always safer for Capital when the Proletariat are at each others throats for nonsensical reasons.

[The Douche]

WTH! I can't be a Communist and be proud of my own nation that I was born and raised in!

And why are you disgusted by your own nation, by which I mean mine as well? America was forged in revolution, Bourgeois yes, but still a revolution. We had, for the most part(throughout our history) great leaders whom did do good things, and some bad things(its called being human), but just because "we", by which I think you mean the government, not the people, supported a few dictators over the years automatically = EVIL! BAD! WRONG!

give me a break. And I know full well that Socialism is technically against nationalism, but Dammit I'm proud of my country! What is wrong with that? Cannot one be a Communist and be proud of their nations achievements? Why hate my own country and countrymen?

And concerning the so called "National Bolshevism"(seriously, why does it exist?). I'm not one, although I am sympathetic towards elements of Lenin's theories(far enough that I would call myself a Leninist) and the need for a Bolshevik-style mass workers party(I'm not referring to the post-Revolution Bolshevik party that ruled an authoritarian state, instead I refer to the pre/inter-revolutionary one/Social Democratic Party back before it was called the Bolshevik party)

You're proud because of stories in a history book that have nothing to do with you?

Why are you proud of something you were born into? Why do you want to reinforce the arbitrary lines on a map created by the ruling class to separate workers?

What founding fathers are you proud of, and why?

[piet11111]

One must remember the Bourgeois and Capital itself is international it just so happens that Nationalism is a wonderful yoke to throw upon the Proletariat as it keeps them in line and busy with nonsensical ideas of national superiority. It is always safer for Capital when the Proletariat are at each others throats for nonsensical reasons.

Sure some capitalists have international markets but they have very little tolerance for foreign capitalists competing with them.
That is why the capitalist system has outgrown the capitalists and why they sometimes resort to protectionist measures.
For example the USA raising tariffs on chinese steel in 2010 i think.

The working class has a lot to gain by thinking internationally the capitalists not so much

[Comrade-Z]

The way I think about nationalism and internationalism is the same way I think about friendship and comradeship. Comrades don't necessarily have to be friends. You don't have to necessarily personally like someone to see the mutual benefit of standing in solidarity with one another. In fact, you can personally think someone is a douche, but if you are both workers, it only makes sense to stand next to one another at the barricades at the end of the day.

This is an area where I think the revolutionary left has been distracted by liberal multiculturalism. Liberals have convinced many on the revolutionary left of the red-herring idea that we need to personally love and embrace all other cultures in order to cooperate with their adherents. This makes sense to a liberal because this IS the reason that the liberal sees for cooperating with those people--because they are "nice" people with a "beautiful" culture and all this idealist humanist pseudo-universalist nonsense. A liberal needs multiculturalism in order to justify cooperation across national lines. Otherwise, a liberal's natural inclination is nationalism. In many ways, conservative nationalism and liberal multiculturalism are two sides of the same coin. They both treat culture as politically relevant, whereas revolutionary leftists should realize (via historical materialism) that culture is largely an outgrowth of relations of production, with a little bit of inconsequential cultural inertia and cosmetic randomness thrown in. Most things in culture are not politically relevant (like the type of food your culture happens to eat), and the things that are politically relevant are usually due, in turn, to the relations of production--the "base."

Revolutionary leftists should not need multicultural justification for international solidarity. It is in my interest to cooperate with working class blacks, Mexicans, Chinese, Brits, Iranians, etc., regardless of whether I like their food or music or not. That sort of stuff should be immaterial to the question of international solidarity in the class struggle.

So yeah, I'm not gonna deny that I'm an American who feels at home (familiar) with many things about American culture, and that I would probably feel out of place in other cultures if I was suddenly thrust into them. That doesn't mean that I'm not still on the same side as with those working class members of those cultures. I am. We all still have the same interests, and we should not let cosmetic things (whether it be through the lens of conservative nationalism or the lens of liberal multiculturalism) distract us from the real issue: mutual class interests and class struggle.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

People shouldn't be rude to RedMarxist for being patriotic. They blast you with propaganda in America constantly and you are more likely to alienate him from the leftwing movement. The guy is already questioning thanks to his parents disapproval, and here you are judging him the same way. People have a right to be theoretically ignorant, especially when they are still in highschool.

Also it is funny that "left nationalism" ie idolizing Stalin, the victory over the Nazis by the USSR, etc is fine but anyone who idolizes George Washington or Lincoln is somehow an apologist for all of America's crimes :P.



This is an area where I think the revolutionary left has been distracted by liberal multiculturalism. Liberals have convinced many on the revolutionary left of the red-herring idea that we need to personally love and embrace all other cultures in order to cooperate with their adherents. This makes sense to a liberal because this IS the reason that the liberal sees for cooperating with those people--because they are "nice" people with a "beautiful" culture and all this idealist humanist pseudo-universalist nonsense. A liberal needs multiculturalism in order to justify cooperation across national lines. Otherwise, a liberal's natural inclination is nationalism. In many ways, conservative nationalism and liberal multiculturalism are two sides of the same coin. They both treat culture as politically relevant, whereas revolutionary leftists should realize (via historical materialism) that culture is largely an outgrowth of relations of production, with a little bit of inconsequential cultural inertia and cosmetic randomness thrown in. Most things in culture are not politically relevant (like the type of food your culture happens to eat), and the things that are politically relevant are usually due, in turn, to the relations of production--the "base."

Revolutionary leftists should not need multicultural justification for international solidarity. It is in my interest to cooperate with working class blacks, Mexicans, Chinese, Brits, Iranians, etc., regardless of whether I like their food or music or not. That sort of stuff should be immaterial to the question of international solidarity in the class struggle.


Multiculturalism is not the enemy of communism, nor is it bourgeois idealistic nonsense. Culture is more significant than you are making it out to be, and things might be more complicated than 19th century materialist dogma supposes. Yes, the means of production are a primary cause in influencing culture but this doesn't mean that culture doesn't also have very substantial conceptual content which differs from people to people, that can have very significant practical effects. The practice of Sattee in India, for instance, would not exist in a world without the notions of metaphysics, karma, and gender roles that existed in ancient Hindu India. And the culture loops back and goes on to effect the means of production, so there is a compounding effect. This is why in some parts of the world, you have a religious community devoted to a particular trade and another religious community devoted to another, despite the fact that both live side by side and exchange with one another. In India, Muslims are much more likely to work leather because their culture allows for it, whereas Hindus see leather-working as spiritually impure. The dividing line between them is simultaneously economic and cultural, and the cultural and economic differences are mutually dependent (instead of one being totally dependent on the other)

Absolute multiculturalism is silly because it supposes that all cultures are "tolerable" when some, such as those with homophobic or racist elements, clearly need to be changed. But a limited or critical multiculturalism is useful for bridging people together despite substantive differences between groups-and there are substantive differences.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

I don't know why a lot of people are proud of the founding fathers. They spoke a good game, and when a lot of them were elected to office, they broke their own promises and ideals (see: Madison, Jefferson, Adams, etc.)

It was during John Adams presidency that several controversial laws were passed. There was the Aliens Friends Act and Alien Enemies Act, which allowed allowed the president to deport any foreigner thought to be dangerous. This was during the 2nd Presidents term, when the nation was practically all immigrants and first and second generation natives. He also allowed to pass the Sedition Act, which basically made it illegal to openly criticize the U.S. government and elected officials.

These, and many other laws and actions, were passed by the SAME exact men who spoke of freedom of speech, and all these new basic rights. At least today we have people who say they love the founding fathers and their beliefs, but 200 years ago the Founding Fathers themselves were breaking all their promises they made just a few years back.

[tir1944]

I'd be grateful for comments on these works and the thesis' brought up in them:

F.Chernov:Bourgeois Cosmopolitanism and its reactionary role
http://marxism.halkcephesi.net/F%20Chernov/chernov-mirovaya-e.html

Boris Ziherl:Communism and Fatherland
http://www.marxists.org/subject/yugoslavia/ziherl/communism-fatherland/ch07.htm

[Skammunist]

People shouldn't be rude to RedMarxist for being patriotic. They blast you with propaganda in America constantly and you are more likely to alienate him from the leftwing movement. The guy is already questioning thanks to his parents disapproval, and here you are judging him the same way. People have a right to be theoretically ignorant, especially when they are still in highschool.


This is so true. I don't know many kids that are in high school that even have the slightest clue about politics, much less socialism. Some of us on the left need to get over ourselves rather than alienate potential comrades in the struggle.

RedMarxist, were you born rich? Or were you born into a working class family? You didn't decide that, you were just born (to paraphrase Alexander Berkman). So just like nationalism, you have absolutely NO reason to be proud of your country just because you were lucky enough to be born into it. What nationalism does is it creates barriers between working class people who would find their interests otherwise very similar if it weren't for that ridiculous concept that is nationalism. I'm in high school too, and I show my internationalism by not standing for the pledge. You don't have to be proud of any country, no matter how good it is. The point is, nationalism kills class consciousness.

[Lucretia]

People shouldn't be rude to RedMarxist for being patriotic. They blast you with propaganda in America constantly and you are more likely to alienate him from the leftwing movement. The guy is already questioning thanks to his parents disapproval, and here you are judging him the same way. People have a right to be theoretically ignorant, especially when they are still in highschool.

Also it is funny that "left nationalism" ie idolizing Stalin, the victory over the Nazis by the USSR, etc is fine but anyone who idolizes George Washington or Lincoln is somehow an apologist for all of America's crimes :P.

All too true. I would note that it is still important to notify RedMarxist that nationalism is utterly reactionary, but there is no need to be so condescending and holier-than-thou about it. It's amazing how many people here who verge on what I consider to be revolting ideas can so easily turn around and pretend to be purer than Caesar's wife.

RedMarxist makes a good point about being proud of people in the past who did noble things. I think it's vital to point out that the greatness of these deeds has nothing to do with the national heritage or identity of the people who performed them. Nationalism, like the state, is an alienated form of what is good in people. It takes our inclination toward cooperation and sympathy and warps it into an exclusionary and vindictive cult premised on a morally arbitrary feature of somebody's life.

[thefinalmarch]

And why are you disgusted by your own nation, by which I mean mine as well? America was forged in revolution, Bourgeois yes, but still a revolution.
Bourgeois revolutions have historically played a progressive part, yes. I ain't no expert on the American revolution but we aren't going to lend our fake "support" to the American bourgeois revolution simply because it was a revolution of some variety, which is what your line of reasoning seems to be here.


We had, for the most part(throughout our history) great leaders whom did do good things, and some bad things(its called being human), but just because "we", by which I think you mean the government, not the people, supported a few dictators over the years automatically = EVIL! BAD! WRONG!
Alright then. What have the American people - or any other peoples for that matter - actually done as a collective whole? How can you say an entire nation has acted as a homogeneous mass?
And who are "the people"? Bourgeois, proletarians, and petit-bourgeois.


Cannot one be a Communist and be proud of their nations achievements?
What are these achievements which you speak of? All I can think of are actions undertaken by individuals, which, in later years, were the subject of distortions of history by nationalists who claimed that it was x nation's inherent ingenuity which was responsible for y invention or whatever.


Why hate my own country and countrymen?
Being opposed to nationalism, or being opposed to the nation-state =/= hating members of that nation or otherwise engaging in any sort of ethnic prejudice or discrimination.

[RHIZOMES]

I support the occupation of Wall Street, any questioning of Wall Street that gets media attention is fine by me. Occupation is also a far more radical act then some leftists seem to acknowledge, since it reclaims space from the spatial organisation of private property. Occupation isn't gonna overthrow capitalism overnight, but its sure as hell more ballsy then anything the majority of this forum has ever done.

[Nox]

If we occupy wall street, we will be shot and killed.

To stop people protesting about police brutality, they will make a cover story and put our faces on the news saying we were terrorists and we had bombs.

[Le Socialiste]

Furthermore, I'd just like to say that I am Proud to be an American citizen. Not that I support Capitalism(I don't), but I'm proud of our American Revolution, our founding fathers, and the [many good] things we have done for the world(that is not to say I deny the bad things that plague my country)

The fuck? :blink:

Edit:


give me a break. And I know full well that Socialism is technically against nationalism, but Dammit I'm proud of my country! What is wrong with that? Cannot one be a Communist and be proud of their nations achievements? Why hate my own country and countrymen?

Why? I haven't seen you give one good reason why anyone should be proud of their country. You don't decide which nation you're born into. Mixing nationalism and patriotism is senseless and dangerous to the efforts of revolutionary leftism.

[redtex]

If we occupy wall street, we will be shot and killed.

To stop people protesting about police brutality, they will make a cover story and put our faces on the news saying we were terrorists and we had bombs.

This. The US government is dangerous. They will kill innocent people. They will label innocent people as terrorists. They will lie. And they will get away with it. And it will be televised. It's been proven time and time again. Fuck the USA. All the nationalist assholes waving their stars and stripes will be cheering the deaths. Saying, "Yeah, kill those damn terrorists!" while watching them die on Fox News. The sad thing is 99.9% those nationalist assholes are the proletariat who would be most helped by a communist revolution.

This is one compelling reason why nationalism is bad. It is the appeal to nationalism the politicians make when they pound the drums of war. Remember right after 9/11 when like 99.9% of the workers here in the US planted flags in their yards and on their cars shouting , "Bomb those fucking ragheads back to the stone age!!!" The sad thing is those nationalist racist assholes are the proletariat who would be most helped by a communist revolution.

All the young men the US government sent to die in Afghanistan and Iraq to kill innocent citizens on those countries were all brainwashed by nationalism.

So many atrocities are made to seem like good ideas because the US politicians are masters of exploiting American nationalistic pride.

So yeah, fuck american nationalism. If we are to ever live in a classless stateless society where we can be truly free (not the bullshit free the american nationalists would tell us is free) we have to give up this false pride.

I'm a worker and have been for 24 years. I live in Texas where *not* being a nationalist will get your ass kicked. I *know* these "Proud to be an American" people. I work with them every day. Nationalism is dangerous. It makes people think it's ok to bomb the fuck out of innocent people and call it "collateral damage" instead of murder. It makes them think they are better than people who live in other countries.

[Nox]

Why? I haven't seen you give one good reason why anyone should be proud of their country. You don't decide which nation you're born into. Mixing nationalism and patriotism is senseless and dangerous to the efforts of revolutionary leftism.

Patriotism is just as bad as ethnic nationalism in my opinion.

Both are based on being proud of something that you can't change.

[The Douche]

If we occupy wall street, we will be shot and killed.

To stop people protesting about police brutality, they will make a cover story and put our faces on the news saying we were terrorists and we had bombs.

You do realise that people are currently in the process of trying to occupy the business district/stock exchange, and various parts of wall street, right?

Aren't you like 13 years old, and haven't you never been involved in any communist activism? Maybe you should keep your paranoid delusions to yourself...

[Art Vandelay]

All too true. I would note that it is still important to notify RedMarxist that nationalism is utterly reactionary, but there is no need to be so condescending and holier-than-thou about it. It's amazing how many people here who verge on what I consider to be revolting ideas can so easily turn around and pretend to be purer than Caesar's wife.

RedMarxist makes a good point about being proud of people in the past who did noble things. I think it's vital to point out that the greatness of these deeds has nothing to do with the national heritage or identity of the people who performed them. Nationalism, like the state, is an alienated form of what is good in people. It takes our inclination toward cooperation and sympathy and warps it into an exclusionary and vindictive cult premised on a morally arbitrary feature of somebody's life.

I think perhaps posters out burst stems from the fact that redmarxist from what I have seen is not interested in learning to much. Truth is I have seen threads other than this one where he has expressed nationalist views and comrades tried to calmly explain to him why, as a leftist, that was wrong. But he came out with many of the same answers he did in this thread, which include changing the subject or simply not addressing what was said. It has nothing to do with age or inexperience, but with an inability to accept he is wrong.

[Smyg]

You do realise that people are currently in the process of trying to occupy the business district/stock exchange, and various parts of wall street, right?

Aren't you like 13 years old, and haven't you never been involved in any communist activism? Maybe you should keep your paranoid delusions to yourself...

"Occupy".

[The Douche]

"Occupy".

The poster that I quoted was claiming that any attempt to occupy wall street would result in mass executions.

That post is commonplace for him, and a few other posters I've seen recently and it represents a serious problem.

Lately there have been some new posters coming up, getting lots of posts in a short amount of time, who have no experience in the real communist/anarchist movement, who don't know anything about politics other than what they read, and don't participate in working class movements. And yet they post things talking about how its sooooooo dangerous to be a working class radical.

1) How the fuck would they know?

2) No, its not.

3) It has a negative effect on the movement, because new people who come here will be scared and put off because they see somebody with 600 posts saying "no way, we can't protest, they'll slaughter us".

I'm not saying this is some sort of organized attempt at fucking with revleft (though it could be), but I am tired of seeing it get ignored.

[Smyg]

First of all, I would like to clarify that I have what could be regarded as real communist movement experience. :D Not particularly proud of the specific variant, but eh.

Secondly, the type of "occupation" going on right now doesn't seem to be the slighest like - in my mind - real occupation. If such was to be carried out on Wall Street, I have no doubt that people would be hurt, although actual executions are no doubt off the table.

[Nox]

You do realise that people are currently in the process of trying to occupy the business district/stock exchange, and various parts of wall street, right?

Yeah, and they will probably be shot if they have any success in doing so... which they haven't had so far.


Aren't you like 13 years old, and haven't you never been involved in any communist activism? Maybe you should keep your paranoid delusions to yourself...

No, I'm not.

Nice failed Ad Hominem attack though ;)

And Ageist too? Wow, you're full of hate aren't you?

Ad Hominem attacks don't really work unless what you're saying about the other person is true.


I see you've got a reputation for flaming and Ad Hominem attacks... Why don't you grow up?

[Seresan]

Of course it has potential... a bunch of people that are angry at the same thing in the same place only require a spark to turn into a riot. Potential for something USEFUL, on the other hand, likely requires a bit more planning.

[Kamos]

do you think the Occupy Wall Street movement has any potential? I'd like to hear your opinions. Right now of course it is brand new and I believe is planning to go on for...2 months right.

I, personally, think it does have potential. Does it REALLY have to be a Communist movement...I mean it would be really dumb to disregard this historic movement just because Communists aren't leading it.

Furthermore, I'd just like to say that I am Proud to be an American citizen. Not that I support Capitalism(I don't), but I'm proud of our American Revolution, our founding fathers, and the [many good] things we have done for the world(that is not to say I deny the bad things that plague my country)

Nice nationalist trolling. In other news, it should be obvious to everyone at this point that OP is a reactionary.

[Seresan]

You may want to take note that this is in the LEARNING section, so there is a good chance that the OP is still LEARNING and is not yet fully purged of the ideals that have been forced upon him/her by the ruling class.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

And Ageist too? Wow, you're full of hate aren't you?


I see you've got a reputation for flaming and Ad Hominem attacks... Why don't you grow up?

I'm not trying to be snide but...See the contradiction? :)

[Kamos]

You may want to take note that this is in the LEARNING section, so there is a good chance that the OP is still LEARNING and is not yet fully purged of the ideals that have been forced upon him/her by the ruling class.

The guy joined on the 1st of April this year. You trying to tell me that he's been here for almost 6 months now and he still hasn't learned the difference between nationalism and anything decent? Besides, there are some so-called "progressive/left-nationalists" here (who are still a joke), but this guy jerks off to the founding fathers (a common chauvinist idol) and is an all-out American patriot (which is inherently reactionary) who is proud of "all the good things" America has done for the world (like taking the lead in combating communism all over the world, I suppose). This guy is a complete joke, even his join date confirms that.:closedeyes:

[redtex]

And yet they post things talking about how its sooooooo dangerous to be a working class radical.

1) How the fuck would they know?

2) No, its not.

3) It has a negative effect on the movement, because new people who come here will be scared and put off because they see somebody with 600 posts saying "no way, we can't protest, they'll slaughter us".

I'm not saying this is some sort of organized attempt at fucking with revleft (though it could be), but I am tired of seeing it get ignored.

Pigs do kill innocent people, but I see your point. I'm new to the movement, but I have 24 years experience of being a wage-slave, and I'm not afraid of the pigs.

I'm getting plugged in to a couple of the local groups in my home town. In the mean time I'll defer to your experience in this area.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

The guy joined on the 1st of April this year. You trying to tell me that he's been here for almost 6 months now and he still hasn't learned the difference between nationalism and anything decent? Besides, there are some so-called "progressive/left-nationalists" here (who are still a joke), but this guy jerks off to the founding fathers (a common chauvinist idol) and is an all-out American patriot (which is inherently reactionary) who is proud of "all the good things" America has done for the world (like taking the lead in combating communism all over the world, I suppose). This guy is a complete joke, even his join date confirms that.:closedeyes:

I wouldn't be so derogatory towards him.Sometimes it can take certain young people a while to understand.While it is true he needs to do his own education I don't think insulting him is a way to go.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I'd be grateful for comments on these works and the thesis' brought up in them:

F.Chernov:Bourgeois Cosmopolitanism and its reactionary role
http://marxism.halkcephesi.net/F%20Chernov/chernov-mirovaya-e.html

Boris Ziherl:Communism and Fatherland
http://www.marxists.org/subject/yugoslavia/ziherl/communism-fatherland/ch07.htm


Those read like exceedingly naive and uncritical polemics with no real value. They argue against a straw-man cosmopolitanism and allege that its bourgeois without ever explaining how, while ignoring the fact that nationalism is far more bourgeois than cosmopolitanism ever was.

Its funny too because ignorant folks in the US argue that cosmopolitanism is a secret Marxist conspiracy to destroy Western civilization (Anders Brevik seems to have taken that viewpoint to its "logical" conclusion"). It is obviously NOT a bourgeois or proletarian conspiracy but an intellectual reaction to the growth of multicultural societies.


I think perhaps posters out burst stems from the fact that redmarxist from what I have seen is not interested in learning to much. Truth is I have seen threads other than this one where he has expressed nationalist views and comrades tried to calmly explain to him why, as a leftist, that was wrong. But he came out with many of the same answers he did in this thread, which include changing the subject or simply not addressing what was said. It has nothing to do with age or inexperience, but with an inability to accept he is wrong.

Well, an inability to admit that someone is wrong often comes from youth or inexperience, as does an inability to tell propaganda from the truth.


If we occupy wall street, we will be shot and killed.

To stop people protesting about police brutality, they will make a cover story and put our faces on the news saying we were terrorists and we had bombs.

There are plenty of occupations which have gone down in the US, UK and France without this happening. There are often arrests, and the police can be quite violent, but the state rarely does anything like that, if just because it knows it will provoke a backlash. Not every protest against the US government turns into Kent State, in fact they almost never do.

The government wouldn't use force anyhow unless they thought that they didn't have a non-lethal option since non-lethal crowd control produces less political backlash.


Patriotism is just as bad as ethnic nationalism in my opinion.

Both are based on being proud of something that you can't change.

This is probably true (although the distinction between nationalism and patriotism is pretty grey and fuzzy)


Nice nationalist trolling. In other news, it should be obvious to everyone at this point that OP is a reactionary.

The vast majority of people in the world hold reactionary views and nobody will convince the large majority to abandon said views by insulting them.


The guy joined on the 1st of April this year. You trying to tell me that he's been here for almost 6 months now and he still hasn't learned the difference between nationalism and anything decent? Besides, there are some so-called "progressive/left-nationalists" here (who are still a joke), but this guy jerks off to the founding fathers (a common chauvinist idol) and is an all-out American patriot (which is inherently reactionary) who is proud of "all the good things" America has done for the world (like taking the lead in combating communism all over the world, I suppose). This guy is a complete joke, even his join date confirms that.:closedeyes:

Not everyone learns at the same speed. RM is clearly living in a context where he has lived his whole life around pro-US propaganda and is still in highschool. Abandoning one's reactionary viewpoints can take a long time, it depends on the individual and many specific aspects of their own personal life story, and exposure to the truth does not necessarily negate one's emotional or cultural attachments.

[Nox]

I'm not trying to be snide but...See the contradiction? :)

There's a big difference between discriminating/insulting someone based on age (what he did), and telling someone to stop acting in an immature manner(what I did).

[Art Vandelay]

The guy joined on the 1st of April this year. You trying to tell me that he's been here for almost 6 months now and he still hasn't learned the difference between nationalism and anything decent? Besides, there are some so-called "progressive/left-nationalists" here (who are still a joke), but this guy jerks off to the founding fathers (a common chauvinist idol) and is an all-out American patriot (which is inherently reactionary) who is proud of "all the good things" America has done for the world (like taking the lead in combating communism all over the world, I suppose). This guy is a complete joke, even his join date confirms that.:closedeyes:

While I agree with your assessment to an extent, I have not been able to tell whether redmarxist is a complete reactionary or simply a young kid who listens to absolutely nothing people tell him and is very entrenched in his views. Either way a restriction would not be a bad idea and at the very least people have been restricted for less.

While looking at the number of his posts would make you think that having been involved in discussion with leftists his opinion on nationalism would have changed, but as far as the posts that I have seen of redmarxists and the discussions I have tried to have with him, he simply is not involved in any meaningful discussion. He frankly spams the forums with many of the same threads, is confronted with the same responses by posters and then either rants about his country, his heritage, or his wish to start revolution littered with vague rhetoric.

This is not an attack at young posters at all, as I am one myself, but I have seen much better contributors to the forums completely banned. New posters should be able to join the forums and express their opinions without feeling like they are attacked by more knowledgeable posters. However this is not what that is.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

There's a big difference between discriminating/insulting someone based on age (what he did), and telling someone to stop acting in an immature manner(what I did).

There is a difference,that is absolutely true,but the manner in which you said it in, "grow up" ,implies that young people are innately immature.A concept which I,for the most part,reject.

Preferences I suppose.

[Nox]

There is a difference,that is absolutely true,but the manner in which you said it in, "grow up" ,implies that young people are innately immature.A concept which I,for the most part,reject.

Preferences I suppose.

I don't see it that way but fair enough.

[El Louton]

What so he can't be proud of his country and want to make it better?

[Smyg]

...

Have you missed this entire conversation?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

What so he can't be proud of his country and want to make it better?

No,he cannot be proud of the most oppressive regime in history.

[Nox]

The government wouldn't use force anyhow unless they thought that they didn't have a non-lethal option since non-lethal crowd control produces less political backlash.

True, but you must consider that Wall Street is a very important area for the government, right up there with the Pentagon and the White House; if it were occupied and peaceful methods weren't dispersing the crowd, 'the shit would hit the fan', if that makes sense ;)




This is probably true (although the distinction between nationalism and patriotism is pretty grey and fuzzy)


Yes, I agree.

But racism, nationalism, patriotism, ageism, sexism, homophobia etc etc are all the same to me - discriminating someone else/being proud based on something you/they can't change.

Not implying that discriminating someone because of something they can change is ok by any means.

[The Douche]

There's a big difference between discriminating/insulting someone based on age (what he did), and telling someone to stop acting in an immature manner(what I did).

There's nothing wrong with being 13, I was 13 once, and thats when I started getting involved with the socialist movement. And by getting involved, I don't mean reading books and posting on the internet.


You think people will be killed for trying to occupy wall street? How many people got killed for actually occupying the state house in wisconsin?

There is a tent city blocks from the stock exchange right now with hundreds of protesters in it, planning how they're going to go about the occupation. Why aren't they being killed? Why weren't the organizers of this rounded up and killed?


You're promoting paranoid delusions which are potentially harmful to the movement.

[Nox]

What so he can't be proud of his country and want to make it better?

Because supporting a capitalist government will only make the country worse.

[El Louton]

No he shouldn't be proud of the system but he should want to change his country and be proud of a newly created America. I'm not saying he should go join the 'Tea Party' but he should be proud of the good things America has done (not much but still) and want to change the bad things. America should be a beacon of shining hope for the world but it isn't. The only way that's possible is Socialism.

[Nox]

There's nothing wrong with being 13, I was 13 once, and thats when I started getting involved with the socialist movement. And by getting involved, I don't mean reading books and posting on the internet.

Don't try and shift the blame on to me; I have not said that there was anything wrong with being 13.

I have been in protests/rallies before.

Everything you said in your post was wrong, you made yourself look like an utter fool.

In case you haven't gathered yet, I'm not 13.



You think people will be killed for trying to occupy wall street? How many people got killed for actually occupying the state house in wisconsin?

There is a tent city blocks from the stock exchange right now with hundreds of protesters in it, planning how they're going to go about the occupation. Why aren't they being killed? Why weren't the organizers of this rounded up and killed?


You're promoting paranoid delusions which are potentially harmful to the movement.

I definitely worded my original post wrong. Check out some of my other replies.

[La Comédie Noire]

Honestly and in full disclosure it probably won't lead to anything, but you should go for the experience, if you can make it.

[Nox]

No he shouldn't be proud of the system but he should want to change his country and be proud of a newly created America. I'm not saying he should go join the 'Tea Party' but he should be proud of the good things America has done (not much but still) and want to change the bad things. America should be a beacon of shining hope for the world but it isn't. The only way that's possible is Socialism.

America's wealth was and still is built up on slavery, wage slavery, corruption and invasions of other countries.

You really couldn't have picked a worse example of a country to be proud of.

Patriotism is the equivalent of an animal praising its cage.

[Art Vandelay]

No he shouldn't be proud of the system but he should want to change his country and be proud of a newly created America. I'm not saying he should go join the 'Tea Party' but he should be proud of the good things America has done (not much but still) and want to change the bad things. America should be a beacon of shining hope for the world but it isn't. The only way that's possible is Socialism.

Nations are not socialist. They are arbitrary lines drawn on a map. Socialism will not reform nations it will destroy them.

[El Louton]

Lets not forget that without America my country would of been ruled by the Nazi's right now. Maybe America is a bad example but get rid of America and all other country's. You should be proud of the good things your country has done.

Lets say you were a socialist from Cuba, would you be proud of your country?

Yes. This isn't nationalism, the left have to reclaim our country's flag from the right. We should be proud of the good things our countries have done and change the bad things we have done too. Sometimes pride gets you a long way.

[Nox]

Lets not forget that without America my country would of been ruled by the Nazi's right now. Maybe America is a bad example but get rid of America and all other country's. You should be proud of the good things your country has done.

Actually that's wrong. America would have been crushed on the Western front had the Soviet Union not killed 80-90% of the Nazi forces. I don't think you realise how much of a role the Soviet Union had in the victory over the Nazis, and the horrifying extent that Eastern Europe was absolutely fucked over to save the rest of the world from Nazism.

America had a relatively minute role in the war in Europe.

My country has done fuck all to help the world. They have had the exact opposite effect.


Lets say you were a socialist from Cuba, would you be proud of your country?

No.


Yes. This isn't nationalism, the left have to reclaim our country's flag from the right. We should be proud of the good things our countries have done and change the bad things we have done too. Sometimes pride gets you a long way.

In case you didn't realise, we want the whole concept of a nation to be abolished and 'thrown on to the ash heap of history'.

[Art Vandelay]

Lets not forget that without America my country would of been ruled by the Nazi's right now. Maybe America is a bad example but get rid of America and all other country's. You should be proud of the good things your country has done.

Lets say you were a socialist from Cuba, would you be proud of your country?

Yes. This isn't nationalism, the left have to reclaim our country's flag from the right. We should be proud of the good things our countries have done and change the bad things we have done too. Sometimes pride gets you a long way.

You have no idea what you are talking about, if it was not for the men and women who made up the red army during WWII your country would be ruled by Nazis right now. America stayed out of the conflict profiting from it, until they were hit at home.

[Kamos]

Lets not forget that without America my country would of been ruled by the Nazi's right now. Maybe America is a bad example but get rid of America and all other country's. You should be proud of the good things your country has done.

Let us not forget that it was the Soviet Union (surprise!) and not America that liberated you. America could never have destroyed Nazi Germany alone; the Soviet Union could have destroyed them alone without the American offensive, or perhaps even without the Allies to begin with. Operation Overlord was just a scramble to regain rule over part of Europe to "save" it from the "communist threat" - so the America you're so proud of only accomplished that the Cold War happened and Europe didn't become entirely socialist. High five!


Lets say you were a socialist from Cuba, would you be proud of your country?

I wouldn't be proud of Cuba as a country, I'd be proud of all the Cubans who have achieved socialism in the country.


Yes. This isn't nationalism, the left have to reclaim our country's flag from the right. We should be proud of the good things our countries have done and change the bad things we have done too. Sometimes pride gets you a long way.

Oh? So tell me some things that national pride has ever done for communism.

[El Louton]

Maybe I don't but I'm saying as we are living in a capitalist society, unfortunately, where countries exist, we shouldn't be ashamed of parts of our culture like music, film and architecture. Yes without the Red Army we would of been slaughtered by Nazi's.

But I'm 14, what do I know?

[Art Vandelay]

Maybe I don't but I'm saying as we are living in a capitalist society, unfortunately, where countries exist, we shouldn't be ashamed of parts of our culture like music, film and architecture. Yes without the Red Army we would of been slaughtered by Nazi's.

But I'm 14, what do I know?

Culture is not the same as a country. Once again do not feel that this is an attack on you because you or young or anything like that, but you very clearly did not read much of the thread and then jumped to the defense of redmarxist in support of a reactionary viewpoint.

[Nox]

Maybe I don't but I'm saying as we are living in a capitalist society, unfortunately, where countries exist, we shouldn't be ashamed of parts of our culture like music, film and architecture.

Will music, film and architecture disappear along with nations? Nope.

The role that the nation plays in culture is so grossly overestimated.


But I'm 14, what do I know?

Your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. If you're old enough to learn, you're old enough to have a valid opinion on a subject.

[Seresan]

Don't try to use your age as an excuse for things... More likely to start an off-topic argument than absolve you of all faults held against you.

[El Louton]

I am learning by having this conversation with you now. I suppose the role that a nation plays in culture is over estimated. And no 'Rosario' I'm not naive enough to see this as a personal attack. I'm just simply discussing an idea with two older people.

[Kamos]

Maybe I don't but I'm saying as we are living in a capitalist society, unfortunately, where countries exist, we shouldn't be ashamed of parts of our culture like music, film and architecture. Yes without the Red Army we would of been slaughtered by Nazi's.

This is not what you said before.


But I'm 14, what do I know?

Regardless of your age, I think it's safe to say you know next to nothing. Not being good at theory is one thing; implying that we have the Americans to thank for winning WWII is, however, a fundamental flaw and you don't even have to be a communist to know this.

[redtex]

Reform is not possible. The concept of nations must be destroyed. Communism means no state.

[Art Vandelay]

I am learning by having this conversation with you now. I suppose the role that a nation plays in culture is over estimated. And no 'Rosario' I'm not naive enough to see this as a personal attack. I'm just simply discussing an idea with two older people.

When did I call you naive? I actually gave you a much less aggressive response that alot others have or would and you call me out for it.

[El Louton]

No I wasn't addressing you personally, its just teenagers are seen in the right wing press as naive anti social thugs and the readers tend to believe that. I just said that I didn't see any of these comments as a personal attack. Your response was less aggressive and I thank you Comrade.

[Art Vandelay]

No I wasn't addressing you personally, its just teenagers are seen in the right wing press as naive anti social thugs and the readers tend to believe that. I just said that I didn't see any of these comments as a personal attack. Your response was less aggressive and I thank you Comrade.

Sorry if that came off as defensive, I am a teenager as well in case you did not know.

[RHIZOMES]

I vote that a mod/admin splits this discussion between the merits of occupation (as a tactic in general and Wall Street in particular) and this nationalist debate. One question is an interesting theoretical point of contention, the other is an extremely basic socialist principle which is currently being debated to death by the likes of people who enjoy beating dead argumentative horses.

[Art Vandelay]

I vote that a mod/admin splits this discussion between the merits of occupation (as a tactic in general and Wall Street in particular) and this nationalist debate. One question is an interesting theoretical point of contention, the other is an extremely basic socialist principle which is currently being debated to death by the likes of people who enjoy beating dead argumentative horses.

I guess trying to counter reactionary views that have been pounded into the heads of young people interested in joining revolutionary left politics, in the learning section none the less, is simply the likes of people who enjoy beating dead horses as you put it.

[RedMarxist]

I'm old enough to know(and well versed in WWII history) to know that it was a combination of every Allied nation fighting that brought down the Axis juggernaut.

It wasn't just the Russians or Americans that "won" the war. The Australians, Canadians(they were pivotal in the liberation of Nazi occupied France), The British(without them desperately holding onto Egypt the Suez Canal would have fallen, severing supplies to Burma and India), the South Africans, etc.

I'm much older than 14, almost legally and adult. And to you( El Louton) I say this: Study, study, study. Not just Marxist theory, but History. Why history? because it makes you smarter, and it allows you to reflect on the mistakes of our past and apply it to the present day. Just imagine what if Adolf Hitler had won WWII for example.

We would not be having this discussion nor would this website likely exist(depending on where its servers are located that is!)

You would not be a Marxist-in-training and depending on your race, religion, wether or not you were deformed/an ethnic minority, etc. or not, You would be burned alive in a chamber or gassed to death.

such as is the evil of the far right.

They talk about the so called "evils" of the far left, but it does not compare to the Nazi Third German Reich.

and most importantly, if your parents try to take away this website + Marxist literature away from you, RESIST!

A good Marxist will never, and I mean NEVER, bow down before ignorant parents who think they know what is best for their son/daughter. They also will not bow down before society. They will, as Lenin stressed in his signature text What Is To Be Done? exist to spread Communist propaganda through agitation, to get their voice heard.

DO NOT turn into a "closet Marxist" spread the word through a Communist party or at every protest you can find. FIGHT BACK against the rich fuckers and every Tea Party Wannabe!(part of my French)

RESIST! FIGHT! SERVE THE MARXIST CAUSE TIL YOUR DEATH!

I mean it. Divided we fall, United we are unstoppable.

[RedMarxist]

sorry for the double post But I'd like to share a personal experience with you El Louton/everyone.
Have you ever experienced love?

not that phony I-Have-A-Crush shit. No, actually enjoying being with somebody, talking to them, the warmth in their smile when you see them in the morning. etc.

someone you actually love.

Well I did, and lets just say she has been tragically torn from me forever.-or so as far as I know thus far.

She was beautiful. Funny. Nice. Had a matching personality too. Someone I'd love to spend the rest of my life with.

The fuckers who took her away-I will forever never understand why they did so.

But know this:

Never stop fighting. Always fight for what you believe in. Revolution is not a dinner party, as Mao Zedong once said.

It will not be peaceful. It will not be a simple walk in the park or a lame ass protest. Are you prepared to give your life for the Communist cause?

Are you?

And are you prepared to lose your loved ones forever-killed by the counter revolutionary little shits?! Those rich fuckers who think they are better than YOU just because they have more money.

"Remember, remember
The fifth of November
The gunpowder treason and plot.
I know of no reason
Why the gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot."

A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having.

[Commissar Rykov]

sorry for the double post But I'd like to share a personal experience with you El Louton/everyone.
Have you ever experienced love?

not that phony I-Have-A-Crush shit. No, actually enjoying being with somebody, talking to them, the warmth in their smile when you see them in the morning. etc.

someone you actually love.

Well I did, and lets just say she has been tragically torn from me forever.-or so as far as I know thus far.

She was beautiful. Funny. Nice. Had a matching personality too. Someone I'd love to spend the rest of my life with.

The fuckers who took her away-I will forever never understand why they did so.

But know this:

Never stop fighting. Always fight for what you believe in. Revolution is not a dinner party, as Mao Zedong once said.

It will not be peaceful. It will not be a simple walk in the park or a lame ass protest. Are you prepared to give your life for the Communist cause?

Are you?

And are you prepared to lose your loved ones forever-killed by the counter revolutionary little shits?! Those rich fuckers who think they are better than YOU just because they have more money.

"Remember, remember
The fifth of November
The gunpowder treason and plot.
I know of no reason
Why the gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot."

A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having.
Did you just quote a poem about a religious supremacist? How quite odd.

[Savage]

sorry for the double post But I'd like to share a personal experience with you El Louton/everyone.
Have you ever experienced love?

not that phony I-Have-A-Crush shit. No, actually enjoying being with somebody, talking to them, the warmth in their smile when you see them in the morning. etc.

someone you actually love.

Well I did, and lets just say she has been tragically torn from me forever.-or so as far as I know thus far.

She was beautiful. Funny. Nice. Had a matching personality too. Someone I'd love to spend the rest of my life with.

The fuckers who took her away-I will forever never understand why they did so.

But know this:

Never stop fighting. Always fight for what you believe in. Revolution is not a dinner party, as Mao Zedong once said.

It will not be peaceful. It will not be a simple walk in the park or a lame ass protest. Are you prepared to give your life for the Communist cause?

Are you?

And are you prepared to lose your loved ones forever-killed by the counter revolutionary little shits?! Those rich fuckers who think they are better than YOU just because they have more money.

"Remember, remember
The fifth of November
The gunpowder treason and plot.
I know of no reason
Why the gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot."

A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having.

are you high

[Art Vandelay]

I think that just proved my point about off topic rants...

[Agent Equality]

sorry for the double post But I'd like to share a personal experience with you El Louton/everyone.
Have you ever experienced love?

not that phony I-Have-A-Crush shit. No, actually enjoying being with somebody, talking to them, the warmth in their smile when you see them in the morning. etc.

someone you actually love.

Well I did, and lets just say she has been tragically torn from me forever.-or so as far as I know thus far.

She was beautiful. Funny. Nice. Had a matching personality too. Someone I'd love to spend the rest of my life with.

The fuckers who took her away-I will forever never understand why they did so.

But know this:

Never stop fighting. Always fight for what you believe in. Revolution is not a dinner party, as Mao Zedong once said.

It will not be peaceful. It will not be a simple walk in the park or a lame ass protest. Are you prepared to give your life for the Communist cause?

Are you?

And are you prepared to lose your loved ones forever-killed by the counter revolutionary little shits?! Those rich fuckers who think they are better than YOU just because they have more money.

"Remember, remember
The fifth of November
The gunpowder treason and plot.
I know of no reason
Why the gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot."

A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having.

wat

[Smyg]

wat

Exactly my thoughts, good sir. A jolly good wat indeed.

[RedMarxist]

whatever. the point is I have had something torn from me(I would say a crush but it was more then that), and I'm using it as an example for you to explain the sacrifices that must be made during revolution.

I quoted the poem because A) Its a good poem and B) It speaks true of revolution.

I'm trying to tell El Louton that if he wants to be a genuine revolutionary, he must sacrifice many things if he genuinely wants to help and is not just some closet-Marxist-in-training.

If I was high yesterday night I would not have been able to type that post. :lol:

So, I will say it again while I am not "high." Are you prepared to sacrifice everything and everyone for Communist revolution? or will you stay a coward(this one goes out to the ones who keep their Marxism to themseves and don't want to agitate!) for the rest of your life.

[Savage]

you sacrificed your girlfriend for 'the revolution'? Which revolution was this?

[thefinalmarch]

Are you prepared to sacrifice everything and everyone for Communist revolution?
Probably not, no. In my idea of working class revolution my loved ones and I tend to do as little dying as possible. The aim of revolution isn't to needlessly die for a purportedly noble or otherwise glorious cause, but it is to change the social relations between entire sections of society. What's the point of a new society when my loved ones won't be able to experience it with me?


or will you stay a coward(this one goes out to the ones who keep their Marxism to themseves and don't want to agitate!) for the rest of your life.
Because you seem to posit yourself as some sort of world-renowned communist organiser, may I take this moment to ask just what have you actually done in the way of agitation? You're like fourteen years old - I doubt you've had much political experience. I'm sixteen and admittedly I have no political experience myself. However, I don't label all inactive pro-revolutionaries as 'cowards'. I don't think you're in the right position to do so, either.

[Art Vandelay]

whatever. the point is I have had something torn from me(I would say a crush but it was more then that), and I'm using it as an example for you to explain the sacrifices that must be made during revolution.


Sorry but it is quite obvious that you are pretty young and chances are you were not in love. Sorry to say but that is the truth, but I will not talk about that much because it is so off topic and fairly ridiculous you brought it up in the first place.


I'm trying to tell El Louton that if he wants to be a genuine revolutionary, he must sacrifice many things if he genuinely wants to help and is not just some closet-Marxist-in-training.

Sorry but redmarxist I am fairly sure that you have made very little contribution to the movement if any at all. Not to mention you have been flip flopping from a Leninist to some sort of leftcom then back to authoritarian communism, you can not even pin down your own tendency.


If I was high yesterday night I would not have been able to type that post. :lol:

Yes you would of.


So, I will say it again while I am not "high." Are you prepared to sacrifice everything and everyone for Communist revolution? or will you stay a coward(this one goes out to the ones who keep their Marxism to themseves and don't want to agitate!) for the rest of your life.

I take it you know this from all your invaluable experience during and leading revolution do you? You have got a pretty big mouth for a little kid who has done nothing but sit behind a computer desk or maybe talk Marxism to kids in his high school. Let me give you one piece of advice redmarxist but I doubt you will take it cause I have said this before and you went off on a rant similar to the one above: you have no idea what you are talking about. The more you try and make it seem like you do, the more it becomes obvious to everyone reading you do not, and that last post just made you seem crazy.

[eric922]

Did you just quote a poem about a religious supremacist? How quite odd.
Not only that,but I bet he hasn't even read the actual comic book, which was written by an actual socialist, and contained much more overt themes of anarchism vs fascism. The movie turned it into purely an attack on the Bush administration, but the writer of the comic, Alan Moore, is an outspoken anarchist and created the batman character Anarchy. Just a small aside, but hey it's at least as useful as what you were replying too.

[Nox]

parents try to take away this website + Marxist literature away from you, RESIST!





:In Utero:

[R_P_A_S]

I honestly don't see any real potential in this "occupation". First of all they aren't even allowed in wall street they are at a near by park. Second, have any of u had the chance to hear any of the "leaders" of this movement speak? They sound like naive kindergarden students. Props to them for attempting this and all BUT they don't even have a list of demands in place nor a follow up plan. I wish i could remember their exact words but it was among the lines of "a better and more fair world". Don't we all? I agree with some post here saying that this has no shot with out any class consciousness. Most Americans are still hopeful that they have "a shot at the American dream". They aren't gonna risk this and take on wall street...

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Amongst most disjointed,incoherent threads I have read here.

...anyways,I have the feeling that the occupy wall street action will fail miserably.As always there needs to be a mass movement behind it.I think something like this would be great during a high period within a social revolution,but not right now where the average worker doesn't have a sense of class consciousness.

[El Louton]

I'm old enough to know(and well versed in WWII history) to know that it was a combination of every Allied nation fighting that brought down the Axis juggernaut.

It wasn't just the Russians or Americans that "won" the war. The Australians, Canadians(they were pivotal in the liberation of Nazi occupied France), The British(without them desperately holding onto Egypt the Suez Canal would have fallen, severing supplies to Burma and India), the South Africans, etc.

I'm much older than 14, almost legally and adult. And to you( El Louton) I say this: Study, study, study. Not just Marxist theory, but History. Why history? because it makes you smarter, and it allows you to reflect on the mistakes of our past and apply it to the present day. Just imagine what if Adolf Hitler had won WWII for example.

We would not be having this discussion nor would this website likely exist(depending on where its servers are located that is!)

You would not be a Marxist-in-training and depending on your race, religion, wether or not you were deformed/an ethnic minority, etc. or not, You would be burned alive in a chamber or gassed to death.

such as is the evil of the far right.

They talk about the so called "evils" of the far left, but it does not compare to the Nazi Third German Reich.

and most importantly, if your parents try to take away this website + Marxist literature away from you, RESIST!

A good Marxist will never, and I mean NEVER, bow down before ignorant parents who think they know what is best for their son/daughter. They also will not bow down before society. They will, as Lenin stressed in his signature text What Is To Be Done? exist to spread Communist propaganda through agitation, to get their voice heard.

DO NOT turn into a "closet Marxist" spread the word through a Communist party or at every protest you can find. FIGHT BACK against the rich fuckers and every Tea Party Wannabe!(part of my French)

RESIST! FIGHT! SERVE THE MARXIST CAUSE TIL YOUR DEATH!

I mean it. Divided we fall, United we are unstoppable.




Firstly this is called the 'learning' area of the forum. Where you learn.

Secondly, when have you 'fought back' against the system?

Thirdly, I have already said that if it wasn't for all the other countries we would have lost. But they wouldn't of took part if imperialist countries didn't invade. The citizens of Canada, South Africa and Australia wouldn't of got involved if they then weren't part of the British Empire.

Lastly, I'm not a closet Marxist. I'm a Marxist/ Socialist and I'm open about it.

Communism shouldn't be a taboo!
Commub

[El Louton]

Sorry RedMarxist but this seems pointless.

Have you ever experienced love?

Well, what's the definition of love? I love my family, my friends and a girl

She is beautiful. Funny. Nice.

I know the revolution will not be peaceful. But a regime of terror and corruption shouldn't be replaced by the same. Equality.

Are you?
Yes.

More importantly are you?

I don't see this as a personal attack but this is the learning part of the forum and believe me I'm learning.

I don't know what happened with the girl you love but I'm sorry for you Comrade.

[Commissar Rykov]

Amongst most disjointed,incoherent threads I have read here.

...anyways,I have the feeling that the occupy wall street action will fail miserably.As always there needs to be a mass movement behind it.I think something like this would be great during a high period within a social revolution,but not right now where the average worker doesn't have a sense of class consciousness.
The occupation lacks any Class Consciousness as a whole so I don't see it lasting. For most it is just going to be some hip way of sticking it to The Man instead of it being a struggle against the Bourgeoisie.

[El Louton]

Nice to see it go back to the actual debate. I agree with Commissar Rykov here, 'The Wall-Street Occupation' does lack class consciousness. People need to be made aware of our struggle and that we support the working class.

[RedMarxist]

agreed, it will most likely fail unless they can get more support + get more organized and rally behind a more specific plan of operation.

[RHIZOMES]

I guess trying to counter reactionary views that have been pounded into the heads of young people interested in joining revolutionary left politics, in the learning section none the less, is simply the likes of people who enjoy beating dead horses as you put it.

I wasn't aware teaching basic socialist principles involved having a smug sense of superiority over less informed comrades.

Regardless, this could easily be split into two threads where all the self-righteous can go and tell off RedMarxist as much as they want, while the people interested in occupation could partake in the other. This thread is currently enjoying a schizoid existence.

[LewisQ]

sorry for the double post But I'd like to share a personal experience with you El Louton/everyone.
Have you ever experienced love?

not that phony I-Have-A-Crush shit. No, actually enjoying being with somebody, talking to them, the warmth in their smile when you see them in the morning. etc.

someone you actually love.

Well I did, and lets just say she has been tragically torn from me forever.-or so as far as I know thus far.

She was beautiful. Funny. Nice. Had a matching personality too. Someone I'd love to spend the rest of my life with.

The fuckers who took her away-I will forever never understand why they did so.

But know this:

Never stop fighting. Always fight for what you believe in. Revolution is not a dinner party, as Mao Zedong once said.

It will not be peaceful. It will not be a simple walk in the park or a lame ass protest. Are you prepared to give your life for the Communist cause?

Are you?

And are you prepared to lose your loved ones forever-killed by the counter revolutionary little shits?! Those rich fuckers who think they are better than YOU just because they have more money.

"Remember, remember
The fifth of November
The gunpowder treason and plot.
I know of no reason
Why the gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot."

A revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg847/scaled.php?server=847&filename=stalincoolstory.jpg&res=medium

[Binh]

Of course it has potential. I reported about my experience at the protest in another thread:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/project-occupy-wall-t161434/index.html

Basically I think they need to have a few clear, focused demands that will rally people to their side, reach out to unions/other organizations, and figure out what to do besides stay in the park with the occasional march to the Stock Exchange.

[Savage]

If I was high yesterday night I would not have been able to type that post. :lol:

If being high denied one the ability to post on revleft then this forum's activity would be almost inexistent.

[Kadir Ateş]

Wall Street protesters in their own words:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwWInp75ua0&feature=player_embedded#!

Here are some gems:

"I see corporatism, fascism, corporate capitalism, um, I don't see a free market."

"[regarding the objective of the protest] To make people conscious, because people are in their houses, comfortable as long as they have food and have a house, they don't make the effort to demand their rights."

"It's a model for a new society, it's not a protest in the sense of being against something, it's a way to formulate something new."

"[written on a sign]: Hey NYPD: The banks have been stealing from you."

..............

Good thing I didn't give a shit from the start.

[Catmatic Leftist]

Wall Street protesters in their own words:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwWInp75ua0&feature=player_embedded#!

Here are some gems:

"I see corporatism, fascism, corporate capitalism, um, I don't see a free market."

"[regarding the objective of the protest] To make people conscious, because people are in their houses, comfortable as long as they have food and have a house, they don't make the effort to demand their rights."

"It's a model for a new society, it's not a protest in the sense of being against something, it's a way to formulate something new."

"[written on a sign]: Hey NYPD: The banks have been stealing from you."

..............

Good thing I didn't give a shit from the start.

That was extremely painful to watch.

[Seresan]

[QUOTE=RedMarxist;2238138]Are you prepared to sacrifice everything and everyone for Communist revolution?QUOTE]

OOOH! I've always wanted to be a martyr!

[Ostrinski]

Man, I started dying when RedMarxist randomly started idealizing love in the midst of a debate about nationalism and the Wall Street Protests, instead of responding.

RedMarxist: Try to relax bro. You're not going on a t-shirt.

[Commissar Rykov]

OOOH! I've always wanted to be a martyr!
I lol'd.


Man, I started dying when RedMarxist randomly started idealizing love in the midst of a debate about nationalism and the Wall Street Protests, instead of responding.

RedMarxist: Try to relax bro. You're not going on a t-shirt.
Unless he makes the shirt then he could be on it...hmm self-martyrdom? Could be slightly less productive then masturbation I suppose.