Occupy Wallstreet

[AnonymousOne]

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lopabipehU1r08rzho1_500.png

http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/occupywallstreet.html


A worldwide shift in revolutionary tactics is underway right now that bodes well for the future. The spirit of this fresh tactic, a fusion of Tahrir with the acampadas of Spain, is captured in this quote:


"The antiglobalization movement was the first step on the road. Back then our model was to attack the system like a pack of wolves. There was an alpha male, a wolf who led the pack, and those who followed behind. Now the model has evolved. Today we are one big swarm of people."— Raimundo Viejo, Pompeu Fabra University, Barcelona, Spain

The beauty of this new formula, and what makes this novel tactic exciting, is its pragmatic simplicity: we talk to each other in various physical gatherings and virtual people's assemblies … we zero in on what our one demand will be, a demand that awakens the imagination and, if achieved, would propel us toward the radical democracy of the future … and then we go out and seize a square of singular symbolic significance and put our asses on the line to make it happen.

The time has come to deploy this emerging stratagem against the greatest corrupter of our democracy: Wall Street, the financial Gomorrah of America.

On September 17, we want to see 20,000 people flood into lower Manhattan, set up tents, kitchens, peaceful barricades and occupy Wall Street for a few months. Once there, we shall incessantly repeat one simple demand in a plurality of voices.

Tahrir succeeded in large part because the people of Egypt made a straightforward ultimatum – that Mubarak must go – over and over again until they won. Following this model, what is our equally uncomplicated demand?

The most exciting candidate that we've heard so far is one that gets at the core of why the American political establishment is currently unworthy of being called a democracy: we demand that Barack Obama ordain a Presidential Commission tasked with ending the influence money has over our representatives in Washington. It's time for DEMOCRACY NOT CORPORATOCRACY, we're doomed without it.

This demand seems to capture the current national mood because cleaning up corruption in Washington is something all Americans, right and left, yearn for and can stand behind. If we hang in there, 20,000-strong, week after week against every police and National Guard effort to expel us from Wall Street, it would be impossible for Obama to ignore us. Our government would be forced to choose publicly between the will of the people and the lucre of the corporations.

This could be the beginning of a whole new social dynamic in America, a step beyond the Tea Party movement, where, instead of being caught helpless by the current power structure, we the people start getting what we want whether it be the dismantling of half the 1,000 military bases America has around the world to the reinstatement of the Glass-Steagall Act or a three strikes and you're out law for corporate criminals. Beginning from one simple demand – a presidential commission to separate money from politics – we start setting the agenda for a new America.

Post a comment and help each other zero in on what our one demand will be. And then let's screw up our courage, pack our tents and head to Wall Street with a vengeance September 17.

[thesadmafioso]

The likely outcome of this is a lackluster showing that is dispersed rather quickly by the local police, which doesn't really do much given the reformist nature of these moderate demands. Best case scenario it actually manages to gain some momentum and the president co-opts the protest by creating some ineffectual and impotent commission that doesn't even achieve the aims of this subdued objective, so still rather useless.

[Ocean Seal]

The problem that I see with this, is that the conditions aren't really reforms as much as they are reformist in nature. In the sense that they are abstract and will probably only elicit token responses from the media and the Obama administration. But nonetheless I will be there. I think that we have to change the tone of the demands though, ending Wall St. corruption doesn't really help our class in the long run, its a moral imperative not a class one.

[AnonymousOne]

The likely outcome of this is a lackluster showing that is dispersed rather quickly by the local police, which doesn't really do much given the reformist nature of these moderate demands. Best case scenario it actually manages to gain some momentum and the president co-opts the protest by creating some ineffectual and impotent commission that doesn't even achieve the aims of this subdued objective, so still rather useless.

I agree with you on every count, this will in no way be successful at having demands be met. This is by no means a revolutionary, nor necessarily leftist movement. What I will say, however, is that if something on this scale happened, anybody occupying Wall Street for however long would be a huge momentum boost. People weren't politically agitating in Tunisia until a man lit himself on fire.

Revolutions need sparks, at the very least this could increase consciousness among protesters.

I'm not thinking short-term, demands are met, I'm thinking about the long term level of momentum and the zeitgeist.



The problem that I see with this, is that the conditions aren't really reforms as much as they are reformist in nature. In the sense that they are abstract and will probably only elicit token responses from the media and the Obama administration. But nonetheless I will be there. I think that we have to change the tone of the demands though, ending Wall St. corruption doesn't really help our class in the long run, its a moral imperative not a class one.

We agree! We can change the protest by being there and participating, we can't if we're not there at all.

[Ele'ill]

This will last and be made to look impressive. The reason for this is because the State will always support inadequate and impotent tactics being used against it.

[AnonymousOne]

This will last and be made to look impressive. The reason for this is because the State will always support inadequate and impotent tactics being used against it.

Yeah, I don't really care about what the end result is. No actual change will be made it's not enough, whatever, whatever.

The thing I actually care about is seeing 20,000 people occupying Wall Street. That would be a *huge* thing for the U.S. The occupation of the global headquarters of finance and capital would be an amazing feat, and would help revitalize existing movements.

But I suppose, we could always just sit back and not take action. That's much more effective and less impotent and inadequate. :/

[Ingraham Effingham]

The message should be no more than "Screw Wall Street"

[CommunityBeliever]

I agree with comrade thesadmafioso. Not much will come from this because the U.S is still the most reactionary of places.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

This will last and be made to look impressive. The reason for this is because the State will always support inadequate and impotent tactics being used against it.

We are dooomed, I tell you! Doooooooomed!

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

i'd do it, but i cant get two months off, and ill probably get shot

[AnonymousOne]

I must admit I am honestly confused by people who say nothing will come from this, I don't think anyone in favor of it actually expects Revolution or sweeping exchange. I think it would INCREDIBLY empowering for the U.S population to take a massive action and would help revitalize radical and revolutionary movements.

It's important only as a symbolic action, the people to fight against the state and occupy the heart of global finance.

Why is any of that a bad thing? Would it be better to stop having protests/rallies/etc.?

[Ingraham Effingham]

I must admit I am honestly confused by people who say nothing will come from this, I don't think anyone in favor of it actually expects Revolution or sweeping exchange. I think it would INCREDIBLY empowering for the U.S population to take a massive action and would help revitalize radical and revolutionary movements.

It's important only as a symbolic action, the people to fight against the state and occupy the heart of global finance.

Why is any of that a bad thing? Would it be better to stop having protests/rallies/etc.?

I agree, saying things like "it wont make a difference anyway" is exactly the type of mindset that needs to be abolished.

I believe there are 2 problems facing the person who would otherwise be mobilized toward positive change:

1. The truth of our current circumstance is overwhelming
2. The average person can't do shit about it (at first glance)

These progressive articles and websites floating around the internet are fantastic, but they fail. They fail hard and they fail often. Despite how well-crafted they are and how legit their message, they fail to penetrate into the popular conscience.

Now, you can ***** about the right wing propaganda and the general stupidity of the Masses, but *****ing just makes you a defeatist and ultimately alienates all those who could be persuaded to help.

First, we give people a helping of the truth that they can handle--we don't make a video or write an article about the totality of the shit that's destroying this world. That's been done. It gets old. When a moderate person hears about corporate abuses delivered in sum, he thinks he's hearing conspiracy theory. There's just too much distasteful truth to swallow in one sitting, and too many progressive organizations fixed on delivering it all in one spoonful.

Better to go after one aspect, specific enough to single out, yet general enough to have a large amount of greivances against it, and go for the throat. Wall Street is a perfect example.

Second, we give people something they can actually do. How many times have you been fired up by a documentary about some bad shit, only too cool off at the end when you're told "How You Can Help"? Stop buying stuff, write a letter to your congressman and donate money. The only roles you're offered to play in the effort are passive and futile. People have a serious frustration inside them right now, and that frustration needs to be channeled into action--action beyond the passive and the futile.

People here saying things along the lines of "it wont do any good, the media/police/state are gonna shut it down or twist it" might as well be saying "why bother." Strong opinions, weak resolve.

I, for one will be there, 09/17/2011.

[Rafiq]

If you guys are brave enough to do it, and the U.S. police starts shooting, we can use that as propaganda :D

No, jk, I'm not a big asshole

[Ingraham Effingham]

Oh i forgot reason number 3: Abject Fear

[AnonymousOne]

Oh i forgot reason number 3: Abject Fear

I hear you. It's a dangerous, world for all of us. (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2011/07/anonymous-lulzsec-retailiate-against-fbi-go-after-nato.html)

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

Quick question. Is there a single person among the above who
a) Knows the terrain of Wall Street;
b) has participated in a march on Wall Street;
c) has actually had to deal with New York City cops and
d)has enough experience of any of the above to contribute something constructive?

No? Then shut the fuck up.

[AnonymousOne]

Quick question. Is there a single person among the above who
a) Knows the terrain of Wall Street;
b) has participated in a march on Wall Street;
c) has actually had to deal with New York City cops and
d)has enough experience of any of the above to contribute something constructive?

No? Then shut the fuck up.

Because obviously anyone not a native New Yorker doesn't have anything of value to contribute. We can ignore any experience other people have of participating in urban protests in a bunch of different cities.

Good work on empowering and educating people though about those different issues. :rolleyes:

[Jimmie Higgins]

The problem that I see with this, is that the conditions aren't really reforms as much as they are reformist in nature.What do you expect from Adbusters? The "corruption" focus and demand for some commission on this or that are hella weak and they strangely include the Tea Party as some kind of legitimate protest movement.

But the idea that Adbusters would actually try and encourage action - and if there is a decent turnout - it is a step forward for small "l" liberals or at least for the broad left. And if people turn out, I think the majority of people there would have only really paid attention to the part of the demand I put in bold: "we demand that Barack Obama ordain a Presidential Commission tasked with ending the influence money has over our representatives in Washington. It's time for DEMOCRACY NOT CORPORATOCRACY".

If I lived in NYC I'd check it out and talk to people - and if it's big then it really shows that people are radicalizing and seeing things like Wisconsin and Cairo as invitations to take action themselves.

Edit: and how many protests do y'all go to where what's being called for from the front of the stage is the main focus anyhow? So many labor rallies with so many pitches for the Democrats:glare:. I mean I really doubt that people will turn out to ask for a commission and all that - I think if people do come out it will be because they want to be a pain in the ass for people who they see as wreaking their lives - yeah a symbolic thing, but Wall St's a pretty loaded symbol.

[Ingraham Effingham]

Quick question. Is there a single person among the above who
a) Knows the terrain of Wall Street;
b) has participated in a march on Wall Street;
c) has actually had to deal with New York City cops and
d)has enough experience of any of the above to contribute something constructive?

No? Then shut the fuck up.

Fear is the mind-killer.

[Ele'ill]

Why is any of that a bad thing? Would it be better to stop having protests/rallies/etc.?


I won't say it's bad but it doesn't leave me feeling good. It would make me feel a little better if there were other tactics used in conjunction with this AND if the people NOT involved in these other tactics understood why these other tactics were valuable. I think it depends on how the word camp can turn to occupy. Otherwise we're left with a LOT of people who participated thinking that 'being them' is enough. It encourages impotent tactics in exchange for a fake panic/deliver from the top.

[AnonymousOne]

I won't say it's bad but it doesn't leave me feeling good. It would make me feel a little better if there were other tactics used in conjunction with this AND if the people NOT involved in these other tactics understood why these other tactics were valuable. I think it depends on how the word camp can turn to occupy. Otherwise we're left with a LOT of people who participated thinking that 'being them' is enough. It encourages impotent tactics in exchange for a fake panic/deliver from the top.

I fail to see how what was posted was a call for merely camping, it's clearly a long-term occupation, not just a weekend or a few days:


then we go out and seize a square of singular symbolic significance and put our asses on the line to make it happen.

The time has come to deploy this emerging stratagem against the greatest corrupter of our democracy: Wall Street, the financial Gomorrah of America.

On September 17, we want to see 20,000 people flood into lower Manhattan, set up tents, kitchens, peaceful barricades and occupy Wall Street for a few months.

[Ele'ill]

Oh ok. I was under the impression that they were calling for a 'day or two' of camping.

[Libertador]

I can just imagine the state government sending New York National Guard troops to arrest everyone.

I would show up but I'll be in Uni.

[agnixie]

Oh ok. I was under the impression that they were calling for a 'day or two' of camping.

Nah, they're calling for two months. IDK, I'm not entirely sure whatever liberals get involved will do the whole thing, but at least there's enough motivated people.

[Aspiring Humanist]

This should be moved to August 2nd
Probably too late to change it and everything but August 2nd is when the US gov will probably default causing ridiculous austerity measures
If the American people only had Greek idealism..

[agnixie]

This should be moved to August 2nd
Probably too late to change it and everything but August 2nd is when the US gov will probably default causing ridiculous austerity measures
If the American people only had Greek idealism..

There's an assembly for the 2nd. To be fair I've been pushing for considerations to kick it off early.

I'll also note that it's easier in Greece, the country is small and two thirds of the population is within hours of Athens, which is built in such a way that it's pretty much possible to take most of the core places in the country over an afternoon. The US is not so centralized and is rather massive.

[AnonymousOne]

Updates:

For comrades living in the West Coast, plans are being drawn up for a West Coast version of Occupy Wall St.: http://occupywallstwestcoast.wordpress.com/

For comrades in the New York area: A 2nd General Assembly is being held August 9th at 7:30pm at 25 barclay, manhattan. There are numerous committees being set up to deal with different problems and concerns, they can be found at https://occupywallst.org/

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lopabipehU1r08rzho1_500.png

http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/occupywallstreet.html


How about you come to Milwaukee, throw me in the back of a rented van and drive me to the action?

[griffjam]

https://occupywallst.org/

https://pay.reddit.com/r/occupywallstreet/

[AnonymousOne]

Update:

The Assembly on the 9th has been moved:

Tuesday, August 9 · 7:30pm - 9:30pm
Irish Potato Famine Memorial
Vesey Street and North End Ave
New York, NY
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=260253463985357

Buses and carpools are being worked out, if you want to attend but need a ride please sign up with https://www.occupywallst.org/ and add yourself to the list.

A list of resources for protestors can be found at this site, if this is your first action (and even if it's not) it's a good idea to take a look:

http://www.usdayofrage.org/resources.html

[o well this is ok I guess]

on September 17, we want to see 20,000 people flood into lower Manhattan That's quite the number.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

That's quite the number.
I want to be in that number. That would mean at least on tramp amongst the tents.:thumbup:

[xub3rn00dlex]

I'm there. I will try to spread it amongst my buddies and let them know the reasons for doing so. Question, would we just be occupying the street protesting? Or would we blockade the building and refuse entry to those bastards?

[AnonymousOne]

I'm there. I will try to spread it amongst my buddies and let them know the reasons for doing so. Question, would we just be occupying the street protesting? Or would we blockade the building and refuse entry to those bastards?

That's currently being hashed out, a lot of what is being done now is surveying the area and making plans for how we can actually get on Wall Street. But yes, the idea is to build barricades and hold the square, for months.

Bring a tent, and lots of clothes!

[Ele'ill]

I'm going to be the pessimist and theorize that people get dispersed rather quickly. It will be an eye opener for a lot of people, who seem to think that approaching the police with a flower and a peace sign will create a barrier and leave the police powerless.

[Fawkes]

Quick question. Is there a single person among the above who
a) Knows the terrain of Wall Street;
b) has participated in a march on Wall Street;
c) has actually had to deal with New York City cops and
d)has enough experience of any of the above to contribute something constructive?

No? Then shut the fuck up.

Yes, now shut the fuck up.

I have work today so I can't attend the meeting, but I'm definitely gonna be in on this. I don't care if the demands are reformative or liberal, the very act of taking over one of the most symbolic places in the country could be enough to galvanize large numbers of people to do something more radical.

If the building entryways are not blocked, the action will lose much of its effectiveness.


I'm going to be the pessimist and theorize that people get dispersed rather quickly.
A big part of me agrees with you, but that's all the more reason why revolutionary leftists should join in so as to bring a degree of militancy to an action that will definitely need it. Even on a normal day Wall Street is teeming with cops.

[xub3rn00dlex]

As for barricading wall street, I would suggest not using whatever we have on hand at the site. We would need to pre-plan our defenses, and I would recommend bringing outside materials ( by the truckload hopefully ) and assembling sturdy blocks onsite.

[gendoikari]

Damn I can't afford the ticket. How many people are we expecting at this thing? This could be fairly historic.

[gendoikari]

Quick question. Is there a single person among the above who
a) Knows the terrain of Wall Street;
b) has participated in a march on Wall Street;
c) has actually had to deal with New York City cops and
d)has enough experience of any of the above to contribute something constructive?

No? Then shut the fuck up.

50 years ago americans stood up around the nation in sit ins and marches to show congress what they demanded. What congress was unwilling to provide. 50 years ago heroes were born to stand up for civil rights and were shot down in their prime. Today we can rise like those heroes of our past and show congress that we will no longer tolerate a corprotocracy, that we will stand before their might. That we will do what is necessary to ensure peace and prosperity to all.

Sure we might not have any experience staging protests and sit ins but anyone that has any real experience with that is either dead or too old to do it anymore. However they themselves had none when they started, it's time for a new generation to learn those skills and put them to good use.

[xub3rn00dlex]

Has anyone here been at a riot in the states before? Preferably NYC? What kind of resistance would we be expecting? I assume footmen and cavalry at the most, I can't really see the state escalating to more dire methods for such an occupation, especially if a large enough crowd appears.

[Ele'ill]

Has anyone here been at a riot in the states before? Preferably NYC? What kind of resistance would we be expecting? I assume footmen and cavalry at the most, I can't really see the state escalating to more dire methods for such an occupation, especially if a large enough crowd appears.

It will start with moving in and shoving then a lot of baton work followed by spray to those who complain followed by horse mounted jerks trampling people.


Or there's gonna be some type of special passes issued to people who 'work there' and the main body of demonstrators won't get anywhere near where they want to be. Imagine a typical summit scenario.

[AnonymousOne]

Or there's gonna be some type of special passes issued to people who 'work there' and the main body of demonstrators won't get anywhere near where they want to be. Imagine a typical summit scenario.

Biggest fear. I would discuss things that are being done to try to mitigate this if they do restrict access, but this is an open internet forum.

[S.Artesian]

The most exciting candidate that we've heard so far is one that gets at the core of why the American political establishment is currently unworthy of being called a democracy: we demand that Barack Obama ordain a Presidential Commission tasked with ending the influence money has over our representatives in Washington. It's time for DEMOCRACY NOT CORPORATOCRACY, we're doomed without it.

Last June, when the NYC municipal unions were mobilizing in order to defuse the resistance to Bloomberg's budget, something like this was attempted, and was actually sanctioned by the city gov. Apparently a judge ruled that "campers" could set up there "tent city" outside city hall park on portion of the street. BFD. I think. a few people actually stayed a few days, and then it died away.

We-- Insurgent Notes-- produced a leaflet for the demonstrations, a pretty good leaflet if I say so myself, went to the demonstrations, and got the typical zero response. As for the tent city then, I didn't think it was even worth addressing.

And I still feel that way. Let's be clear, Tahrir Square, hasn't accomplished much of anything, because it's demands haven't engaged the social basis, the economic basis, the class basis, for the state of the Egyptian people. And.. therefore, the "Arab Spring" movement is under attack and being rolled back in Egypt.

The "demand" for this imitation of "struggle, interrupted" is even more lame than the demand that Mubarak must go, as that demand contained a confrontation with the ruling class and the ruling class agents and operatives of the Egyptian state. This demand doesn't even do that.

[AnonymousOne]

S.Artesian:

Yeah, we all agree the demand sucks but it's still an important action as we've discussed through out the thread as it would be a good thing to see 20,000 people occupy a major landmark for months. Plus the more militant we can make this event the better.

[S.Artesian]

S.Artesian:

Yeah, we all agree the demand sucks but it's still an important action as we've discussed through out the thread as it would be a good thing to see 20,000 people occupy a major landmark for months. Plus the more militant we can make this event the better.

Be my guest. But look, why take a gigantic step backward and ask for Obama to create another bullshit commission when Obama has aligned himself, at every opportunity, with the "corporatocracy"?

Why not set up a workers commission to present evidence on the transfer of wealth up the social ladder, the turning of the national treasury into a "bad bank" to keep the investment, commercial, private banking system, and bankers afloat and rich?

Why not build on what's been done and articulated on even the basic level of Madison, Wis. and present class-wide demands that break through this ridiculous mythology about democracy, and representative government and all that crap?

Why not occupy the Fed Reserve Bank of NY? Or at least surround it? Set up your tents right on those steps and refuse admittance to any and all the bankers?

Why not do something a bit more creative and bit less whiny, and obsequious?

Why engage in the same dead-end crap that has been proven to lead to nowhere?

[S.Artesian]

Quick question. Is there a single person among the above who
a) Knows the terrain of Wall Street;
b) has participated in a march on Wall Street;
c) has actually had to deal with New York City cops and
d)has enough experience of any of the above to contribute something constructive?

No? Then shut the fuck up.

a) I do
b) I have
c) I have
d) I do: this is a giant step backwards. What's with this bullshit appeal to the "right"-- as in cleaning up corruption in Washington is something both right and left agree on, or share. That's complete fucking crap. This isn't about corruption, it's about class. About the organization of labor. The fucking right doesn't care about corruption as long as their benefiting from it. Look at these fucking Palinites? You don't think they're as corrupt as anyone else? Do us a favor........

If you don't distinguish yourself from the right, on the basis of class, then all you're doing is strengthening the right.

[AnonymousOne]

Updates:

The 2nd General Assembly at the Irish Potato Famine Memorial was a great success. About 175-200 people showed up, there was good energy and we self organized into a fairly well functioning assembly.

We spoke about our personal reasons for being there, the groups feelings about demands and message, and then broke up into committees.

Off the top of my head those committees are:

OUTREACH - Next meeting: Thursday August 11th at 5pm, at the Verizon picket line, on the corner of Barclay and West st. Everyone is a member and should attend if possible, it's up to us to get our message out.

FOOD - Assembly for #occupywallstreet needs help on FOOD and WATER logistics working group. [1] [email protected]

LOGISTICS - This group stayed very late. I wasn't able to stick around, apologies. I left after my committee meeting was done. I'll try to get information from someone who was in Logistics.

STUDENTS - We had a handful of students from colleges around the NYC area discuss ways that students could provide support, and students could be supported.

FACILITATION - I am unsure if this committee met or has been formed.

INTERNET - We want to form a web space for the General Assembly where we can share documents, ideas, and links to other groups in solidarity. Next meeting: Thursday (aug 11), 7pm @ Earth Matters 177 Ludlow St

PDF fliers for the next General Assembly on the 13th can be found here (http://tinyurl.com/3pqsnv5).

Even if you haven't been to previous ones, please feel free to come to any committee meeting or General Assembly. We're entirely open, and we'd love to have more participation from others.
---------------------------------------------------------

Rides and Carpools are being organized:
https://occupywallst.org/rides/

---------------------------------------------------------
If you're too far away and feel like you can't attend have no fear!

http://usdayofrage.org/occupy-the-state-and-federal-capitols-on-the-usdayofrage.html

Our partner, US Day of Rage is organizing multiple occupations of locations that might be easier for you to attend. However, for New Yorkers and people in that general area, it's reccomended that you Occupy Wall Street.

[AnonymousOne]

Why not build on what's been done and articulated on even the basic level of Madison, Wis. and present class-wide demands that break through this ridiculous mythology about democracy, and representative government and all that crap?

Why not occupy the Fed Reserve Bank of NY? Or at least surround it? Set up your tents right on those steps and refuse admittance to any and all the bankers?

Because no one would attend that, duh. The main reason I'm participating, and I think others should is because we'll have a chance to offer those class specific demands. Movements are dynamic and they change, but we can't influence them unless we participate.

I've been to every General Assembly so far and it's becoming more concrete, our message is becoming more clearly anti-corporate, and it's moving to the left.

There's nothing wrong with attempting to influence things from the outside is there? Besides even if it was just a centrist "anti-corruption" event, I'd still go because occupying Wall St. is, in and of itself, a radical thing to do. Wall St. is a very loaded symbol. I also, don't know why you'd think blocking the Federal Reserve in New York would get more attention or be better than occupying Wall St.

I'm not hearing many reasons why this is bad, just reasons why it's not perfect.

[S.Artesian]

Because no one would attend that, duh. The main reason I'm participating, and I think others should is because we'll have a chance to offer those class specific demands. Movements are dynamic and they change, but we can't influence them unless we participate.

How do you know that? How do you know that if you actually present an accurate analysis of what's going on and what must be done, nobody's going to attend? They attended pretty well in France, Spain, the UK, Italy, Greece when actually class issues have been raised. How do you know that after the failure of all this "lowest common denominatorism," of this "Yes, we can [but no we won't] stuff from Obama, that nobody will respond to anything that isn't more of the same?


I've been to every General Assembly so far and it's becoming more concrete, our message is becoming more clearly anti-corporate, and it's moving to the left.

Can you give me an example? The statement you posted certainly doesn't indicate that. Maybe there's something else published that does, and if so I sure would appreciate a copy of it.


There's nothing wrong with attempting to influence things from the outside is there? Besides even if it was just a centrist "anti-corruption" event, I'd still go because occupying Wall St. is, in and of itself, a radical thing to do. Wall St. is a very loaded symbol. I also, don't know why you'd think blocking the Federal Reserve in New York would get more attention or be better than occupying Wall St.

Wait a minute. Nobody just occupies Wall Street. People don't take actions divorced from the social, and economic, context. So let's establish what that social and economic context is. Let's call it by its right names, and not try to obscure what's going on by making corruption an issue. That's like saying Bernie Madoff, or unscrupulous mortgage floggers are the cause of the current situation. Corruption has exactly nothing to do with it as a cause. It is an effect.

And come on, you know the Fed is in the Wall Street Area, just a bit north. Ever hear of Maiden Lane? As in Maiden Lane 1, bailing out Bear Stearns? And Maiden Lane 2 as in bailing out AIG. Check it out.

You know what else is cool about the NY Fed? That's where other governments keep their gold deposits-- in marked off areas, and sometimes when transactions are settled in gold, the Fed has these forklifts that move the pallets of gold from once country's square to another's, like a board game.


I'm not hearing many reasons why this is bad, just reasons why it's not perfect.

I can only say it. I can't make you hear it. The political demand on which this thing is based are worse than reformist-- they are "co-optist"-- designed to co-opt dissent and make it a basis for supporting the "liberal" program.

[AnonymousOne]

How do you know that?

Because the U.S isn't radical, it's very conservative and social democracy is considered revolutionary and radical. The only thing I can offer you is election results and anecodtal evidence though.



How do you know that after the failure of all this "lowest common denominatorism," of this "Yes, we can [but no we won't] stuff from Obama, that nobody will respond to anything that isn't more of the same?

Yeah, I remember that time Obama talked about how we needed to occupy Wall Street and fight off the cops and national guard. The difference is in tactics, voting is passive, occupation is active.




Can you give me an example? The statement you posted certainly doesn't indicate that. Maybe there's something else published that does, and if so I sure would appreciate a copy of it.

Yeah sure, currently the majority of people that are involved are increasingly becoming in favor of making the demand the revocation of corporate personhood. At the sister site of occupywallstreet.org,

http://occupywallstreetnews.com/

You'll notice for example, the RSA video on the Crises of Capitalism, articles calling for higher taxes on the rich and pointing out just how much 1% of America owns. It's slowly becoming more radical.





Wait a minute. Nobody just occupies Wall Street. People don't take actions divorced from the social, and economic, context. So let's establish what that social and economic context is. Let's call it by its right names, and not try to obscure what's going on by making corruption an issue. That's like saying Bernie Madoff, or unscrupulous mortgage floggers are the cause of the current situation. Corruption has exactly nothing to do with it as a cause. It is an effect.


Most people I've talked to are occupying Wall Street, because hey, "Fuck Wall Street" or "Fuck the Rich". But that's once again anecdotal, I hope the link above will convince you that we're not simply against corruption.

Also, yes I know where the Fed. Reserve is located, I was pointing out that all of Wall Street would be a better/bigger target than simply the Fed. Reserve alone.

[S.Artesian]

OK, I checked the website, and I read some articles, and I listened to that grandstand rant by Dylan Ratigan, and saw the banner ad for/by/about Al Gore stating "we need a non-violent Tahrir Square... and I don't see anything that moves much beyond the issue of political corruption and the undue influence of the wealthy on "our political system."

Everything seems to be about getting the "money out of politics."

I think that's a futile effort. While you think the movement is going to the left, what I see is a use of rhetoric designed to appropriate certain words to give a "left cover" for an effort that seems to be organized around not identifying capitalism as capitalism, and class as class.

I agree the US is more conservative than most countries in Europe-- but that's all the more reason to not obscure the analysis of what's happening, why it's happening, and what the response must be. And believe me "getting the money out of politics" will accomplish nothing other than keeping the money in politics.

And one more thing... when a materialist analysis of this decade is written, Tahrir Square will be recognized as a failure not for what it didn't accomplish, but for the issues it never even raised.

[xub3rn00dlex]

It will start with moving in and shoving then a lot of baton work followed by spray to those who complain followed by horse mounted jerks trampling people.


Or there's gonna be some type of special passes issued to people who 'work there' and the main body of demonstrators won't get anywhere near where they want to be. Imagine a typical summit scenario.

I assume the latter will happen, but how hard would it be to breach security with a large enough force?

As for the typical footies + cavalry, why couldn't we simply out strategize them? It's pretty simple to prepare for melee combat, and cavalry stand no chance against a proper phalanx. The worse thing would be the spray and tear gas, since those are a little harder to defend against properly.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

50 years ago americans stood up around the nation in sit ins and marches to show congress what they demanded. What congress was unwilling to provide. 50 years ago heroes were born to stand up for civil rights and were shot down in their prime. Today we can rise like those heroes of our past and show congress that we will no longer tolerate a corprotocracy, that we will stand before their might. That we will do what is necessary to ensure peace and prosperity to all.

Sure we might not have any experience staging protests and sit ins but anyone that has any real experience with that is either dead or too old to do it anymore. However they themselves had none when they started, it's time for a new generation to learn those skills and put them to good use.

In 1934 there were strikes and workplace occupations at the point of production. Workers fought back., this had nothing to do with begging Congress but was a direct struggle over the means of production. I would imagine there are many Revlefters who have gone to many demos.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I haven't read the entire thread. The purpose of any action is to raise the level of class consciousness of the working class.A march on Wall Street could be productive. What demands will be raised? Its very important to explicitly reject the Tea Party and the right.Demands could be things such as

1) Banks, financial institutions and other such enterprises open their books to public scrutiny and accountability. How many people have been made homeless while Bank of America sucked off the govt's teat?

2.) Criminal investigations into the massive theft and misuse of public monies by the banks.

3.) Bring banks under public ownership, not old style nationalization (although that might be a start) but democratic ownership of banks, hedge funds and other such criminal institutions.

The correct slogans and demands raised are very important. We are not "all in this together", they're have been big winners and losers. How do we explain that to people? An action of some sort at the Koch brother's places of businesses can be useful. Demonstrate the absurdity of libertarian and Tea Party propaganda.

Also at this stage a "Tahrir Square" style occupation of Wall Street will not work, at all. A few hotheaded anarchists will be arrested, the media will focus on how many Starbucks and yuppie boutiques had their windows smashed,the pigs will have a field day, that's all. This is not workable.

Let's focus on demands and our educative mission.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

now shut the fuck up.

Shut you up? Naw, the cops will take care of that.

[Fawkes]

I assume the latter will happen, but how hard would it be to breach security with a large enough force?



Not hard at all. What is hard is getting that "large enough force". If there actually were 20,000 radical and militant activists ready to combat the police, it would actually be pretty easy. The NYPD is comprised of 34,500 officers and 120 horses. That would mean that if every single calvary unit was deployed, there would be 167 people per horse. In really raw numbers, there are an estimated 11,000 officers on duty at any given time throughout the 5 boroughs. So even if 1/10 of them were in the immediate vicinity of Wall Street at the time, that's almost 20 people per officer.

So yeah, it would be pretty easy. What would not be easy would be convincing 20,000 adbuster liberals on the spot to take militant action to combat the police and shut down one of the most iconic streets in the world.



The worse thing would be the spray and tear gas, since those are a little harder to defend against properly.
No, the worst thing that could happen would be an overzealous bloc of 200 people thinking they have the support of the other 19,800 people (assuming 20,000 show up) in fighting the police only to find themselves surrounded by the largest police force in the country.


This isn't meant to be disheartening, only realistic. Could 200 people fend off a properly barricaded area from police attacks for an extended period of time? Yeah, probably. What would be necessary though would be for those 200 people to be organized, protected by strong barricades, and free from the common American conception of all police as being Robocops with no capacity for harm or injury. Really doesn't seem all that likely. But here's to hope.


edit: Also, this is assuming that the intention is not to stage some sit-in in the middle of the road, but to definitively close off access to some of the largest financial institutions in the country, including the New York Stock Exchange.

[gendoikari]

Not hard at all. What is hard is getting that "large enough force". If there actually were 20,000 radical and militant activists ready to combat the police, it would actually be pretty easy. The NYPD is comprised of 34,500 officers and 120 horses. That would mean that if every single calvary unit was deployed, there would be 167 people per horse. In really raw numbers, there are an estimated 11,000 officers on duty at any given time throughout the 5 boroughs. So even if 1/10 of them were in the immediate vicinity of Wall Street at the time, that's almost 20 people per officer.

So yeah, it would be pretty easy. What would not be easy would be convincing 20,000 adbuster liberals on the spot to take militant action to combat the police and shut down one of the most iconic streets in the world.



No, the worst thing that could happen would be an overzealous bloc of 200 people thinking they have the support of the other 19,800 people (assuming 20,000 show up) in fighting the police only to find themselves surrounded by the largest police force in the country.


This isn't meant to be disheartening, only realistic. Could 200 people fend off a properly barricaded area from police attacks for an extended period of time? Yeah, probably. What would be necessary though would be for those 200 people to be organized, protected by strong barricades, and free from the common American conception of all police as being Robocops with no capacity for harm or injury. Really doesn't seem all that likely. But here's to hope.


edit: Also, this is assuming that the intention is not to stage some sit-in in the middle of the road, but to definitively close off access to some of the largest financial institutions in the country, including the New York Stock Exchange.

actually I fully expect if the guys who camp are determined enough that some idiot cop is going to shoot.... and when they do..... Bovine fecal matter will have an inelastic collision with the oscillating air displacer.

[Fawkes]

Shut you up? Naw, the cops will take care of that.

As opposed to you who already shut themselves up.

Look, I'm not saying this is going to be a revolutionary action. I'm not saying this is going to be successful in its demands. But, at this point we can be fairly certain that this action will happen whether we are a part of it or not. And Mari3l's right, chances are this will be allowed to occur by the city because it is an impotent mode of protest. But the fact of the matter is that a lot of working class people with legitimate desires for change will be there. There's obviously a great level of anger and frustration among the whole population. Should we just sit back and scoff at the pathetic liberal attempts at reforming "corporatocracy", or should we have a presence there and try to reach other workers feeling frustration and anger in an effort to spread class solidarity and channel that frustration and anger into future actions with truly revolutionary potential?



Has anyone here been at a riot in the states before? Preferably NYC?
Given that most revlefters were somewhere between toddlers and fetuses the last time there was a riot in NYC (1992 in washington heights), I'm gonna guess no.

[xub3rn00dlex]

Not hard at all. What is hard is getting that "large enough force". If there actually were 20,000 radical and militant activists ready to combat the police, it would actually be pretty easy. The NYPD is comprised of 34,500 officers and 120 horses. That would mean that if every single calvary unit was deployed, there would be 167 people per horse. In really raw numbers, there are an estimated 11,000 officers on duty at any given time throughout the 5 boroughs. So even if 1/10 of them were in the immediate vicinity of Wall Street at the time, that's almost 20 people per officer.

Also they will undoubtedly request assistance from neighboring states and counties if they cannot control the situation. A pike per horse can keep them at bay, but what if we were to hypothetically mount them ourselves if we overwhelmed them? Also, somehow I don't feel like the NYPD wouldn't be quick to resort to extreme measures, ESPECIALLY around their beloved shrines at wall street. Rubber bullets and grenades would become a problem if you ask me.


So yeah, it would be pretty easy. What would not be easy would be convincing 20,000 adbuster liberals on the spot to take militant action to combat the police and shut down one of the most iconic streets in the world.

I don't even think it's easy convincing half that many people to even show up for this event.


No, the worst thing that could happen would be an overzealous bloc of 200 people thinking they have the support of the other 19,800 people (assuming 20,000 show up) in fighting the police only to find themselves surrounded by the largest police force in the country.

Actually that isn't the worst thing. The worst thing would be the overzealous police force surrounding the bloc and assaulting it relentlessly without any care for the protestors. I'm not a big fan of piggies, and my experiences with them leave me fearing the worst will come of any militant action.



This isn't meant to be disheartening, only realistic. Could 200 people fend off a properly barricaded area from police attacks for an extended period of time? Yeah, probably. What would be necessary though would be for those 200 people to be organized, protected by strong barricades, and free from the common American conception of all police as being Robocops with no capacity for harm or injury. Really doesn't seem all that likely. But here's to hope.

Realism is more important than fantasy. We can all fantasize about fighting the cops and winning, but chances are we will be quickly out maneuvered by the piggies. With realism comes extra strategic planning, something we will need - militant or not.


Given that most revlefters were somewhere between toddlers and fetuses the last time there was a riot in NYC (1992 in washington heights), I'm gonna guess no.

Shit I wasn't even in the country then. My diapers were foreign lol.

[Ele'ill]

I assume the latter will happen, but how hard would it be to breach security with a large enough force?

I'm doubtful that there will be a large enough body of people willing to militantly engage police on horse back, on motorcycle, in riot gear.


As for the typical footies + cavalry, why couldn't we simply out strategize them?

This works when things are done on the fly and these 'things' or 'tactics' that work often don't do very much outside of spectacle. (St Paul). The other issue that comes to mind is space. There's only so much area to act in.



It's pretty simple to prepare for melee combat, and cavalry stand no chance against a proper phalanx.

Maybe with highly trained foot soldiers with wicked shields. Maybe.



The worse thing would be the spray and tear gas, since those are a little harder to defend against properly.

Spray, yes. The issue with the gas is that it's hard to control where it goes and I have a hard time picturing the use of gas in NY under these conditions.

[Bardo]

Apparently the right is preparing for this as well.


The only remaining question is: What will you do? Are you prepared to protect and defend your family? Can you defend your property? Will you have food and water, or have you not prepared? Do you have the gravitas to support local law enforcement when they come under attack trying to contain these violent, non-violent protests? Are you prepared for Martial Law? Do you have your survival networks established? Safe houses? Do you possess the constitution, the depth of face to go as far as is needed to preserve the Republic? If not, are you prepared to tell your children and grandchildren that you were unprepared or a coward and that is why they now live in a crumbling, third world country that is a utopia for only the elite and the rich? America, your time is now.

http://www.patriotactionnetwork.com/profiles/blogs/day-of-rage-planned-across-u-s-on-sept-17-2011

Bolded part is entertaining.

[gendoikari]

Apparently the right is preparing for this as well.



http://www.patriotactionnetwork.com/profiles/blogs/day-of-rage-planned-across-u-s-on-sept-17-2011

Bolded part is entertaining.

Lol yeah, because things are just SO damn peachy for the rest of us right now with 10% unemployment


The purveyors of the Day of Rage have done their best to make their cause sound as if it is Libertarian or Conservative, but as one reads through the material, it becomes apparent that they are masking their origins and intent. Corporations are blamed for much of the ills, including the suppression of “free and fair elections“. Hiding under the guise of ‘one person/one vote’ and campaign finance reform, fitting the ideology of B. Hussein Obama, as stated in his chastising of the Supreme Court during his State of the Union Address, they seek to implement social justice and a democracy, undermining the republic and electoral college process, turning elections into a popularity contest.

Really, they're afraid of justice and democracy.... sounds EXACTLY like an aristocracy to me.

[o well this is ok I guess]

to go as far as is needed to preserve the Republic? Are we in France?

[gendoikari]

combined with our blatantly communist President, B. Hussein Obama, if that is his real name, and the shadow government of czars he has set up, a revolutionary storm, striking America, at approximately the same time America sees a credit downgrade and a pending food crisis (The government and media remain silent on the fires, lack of rain and flooding that has diminished our nations food supplies), it is the perfect time for disruption and Martial Law. For a President behind in the polls and failing at implementing “fundamental change” in America, this would enable his official oligarchy to begin. It has always been a question of “when” not “if”. We now know when.


Really they think obama, wall streets whore is behind this.... actually that's not fair to prostitutes I like them.

[Bardo]

I believe obama is behind all of this, no doubt about it.

- Comment on the article

:D

[gendoikari]

- Comment on the article

:D

Seeing as how I think most of us are going to give him the boot in 2012 if not on sept 17, I fail to see their logic ...

[AnonymousOne]

Lulz at Patriot Action Network. They figured out our horrible plot to "...implement social justice and a democracy"

[RedLeft]

I will be there. See you on the 17th.

[Dunk]

My friend really wants to go. I don't know if I can afford to. I think I'll see how many people show up on September 17th, and makes plans from there.

[Ele'ill]

I think everyone should experience a mass mobilization.

[Mindtoaster]

I'll fly up to New York if it appears that they'll actually get 20,000 people. I have a free ticket from South-West Airlines but I can't up and leave from classes if it looks like this will be a tiny thing thats gonna fizzle out

[BuekerC1]

The thing I actually care about is seeing 20,000 people occupying Wall Street. That would be a *huge* thing for the U.S. The occupation of the global headquarters of finance and capital would be an amazing feat, and would help revitalize existing movements. /

The people I have talked with are thinking like this also.


I agree, saying things like "it wont make a difference anyway" is exactly the type of mindset that needs to be abolished... I, for one will be there, 09/17/2011.

Exactly.

There is a similar event in Freedom Plaza, beginning October 6, 2011.

[agnixie]

Another bit of hilarity.

Some right wing political committee is charging 120$ a pop to spam this to congress and the white house (https://secure.freedomdonations.com/ameripac/wallstreet/fax.php)

Or if you're cheap, 30$ for the senate, 100$ for the house of reps :laugh:

I fucking wish it was half-true damnit.

EDIT - It's Ameripac

[Ele'ill]

Sup everyone. Here's some update stuff- apologizes if it's been posted already but I don't see it.

Some peeps did a test run demo-

http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2011/09/115967.html

[The Douche]

Is anybody at this? How's it going?

[bcbm]

afp article (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jwB_zy0tcSXCUegKjGvlfkRmt7UA?docId=CNG.77b84 336cea698f00a40b5ac55207970.de1)

[ВАЛТЕР]

https://rt.com/news/wall-street-protest-system-811/

"Hundreds of demonstrators gathered near Wall Street in New York City to protest against the existing financial system, which they say is the cause of the economic crisis and is fueling social injustice"

That's not enough to make them even look in the direction of the working class...Not even close...

[El Louton]

You need hundreds of thousands!

[Aloysius]

Did that happen already?
I didn't even see anything in the paper.

[ВАЛТЕР]

It started yesterday, Idk whether or not it is currently under way.

No surprise you didn't hear about it. Why would media want the public to know that their system is a castle made of sand...

[Comrade Dracula]

Some say hundreds, some say thousands and I've seen instances where it was said that protesters number some fifty thousand strong (though this is more than likely an overstatement). Right now there is not much information on the numbers, as the bourgeoisie media has little to no interest in covering this.

Though some of the videos like this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Dn2yFcQUDc&feature=youtu.be) depict some large crowds, though I have my doubts that they measure in thousands.

[W1N5T0N]

Of course, go there, if you as working class WoMan/teenager have some time to spare...like 2-3 months...and no children...no bills...no house...no school...

not wanting to be sarcastic, but how WOULD you do it?
Protests on a daily basis make sense, but this long? It would be VERY cool if they managed to pull it off though. Wall street is the biggest bastion of capital (real or hypothetical).

[OhYesIdid]

I've been following this and, honestly, I'm underwhelmed.

[Red And Black Sabot]

I don't know if it's still to early to say but I think this is going to be a huge liberal fail.
I'm hoping that some folks might be able to push this in a more meaningful direction but everything I've been reading so far says the plans are to start up weekly yoga and bringing back critical mass.
I'm just glad I didn't waste my time driving up to NY.

[Smyg]

Dupe thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/anyone-campingi-occupy-t158484/index4.html?t=158484&page=4).

[Tabarnack]

The occupation is meant to be an ongoing thing, we will see how things evolve, in any case the demonstrations and occupations against the financial institutions is international in scope and hopefully it will make a difference, it all depends how far people want to push this thing, since this movement has no real leaders...

September 17th EVERYWHERE!
global actions against banks and banksters

#OCCUPYWALLSTREET in New York, USA – Read the plan of action.
#TOMALABOLSA in Madrid, Spain – Read the plan of action. Fb event.
#TOMALABOLSA in Barcelona, Spain – Read the plan of action. Fb event.
#TOMALABOLSA in Valencia, Spain – Fb event
#TOMALABOLSA in Bilbao, Spain – Fb event
#TOMALABOLSA in Santander, in Spain – Camping 2 days in front of Bank Santander. Read the plan of action.
#TOMALABOLSA in Las Palmas, in Spain – Read the plan of action.
#OCCUPAZIONEPIAZZAAFFARI in Milan, Italy – Fb event.
#OCCUPYBANKOFENGLAND, #UKUncut in London, England – Fb event. other fb event.
#USDORSF San Francisco, USA – Read the plan of action.
#USDORLosA Los Angeles, USA – Read the plan of action.
#OCCUPYWALLSTREET in Austin, USA – Read the plan of action.
#OCCUPYWALLSTREET in Seattle, USA – Read the plan of action.
#TAKETHESQUARE return to the Capitol Square in Madison, Wisconsin – USA Webpage
in Portland, USA – Read the plan of action. Fb event.
#OCCUPYBAYSTREET in Toronto, Canada – Fb event.
in Athens, Grece – Hellenic Stock Exchange Fb event. Also gathering in Syntagma square at 12:00 and then march to the Bank of Greece on Panepistimioy Avenue. Fb event. Web flyer here.
in Berlin, Germany – Occupy Börse Berlin Fb Event.
in Frankfurt, Germany – Occupy Frankfurter Börse Fb Event.
in Stuttgart, Germany – Occupy börsenstrasse Fb event.
in Lisboa, Portugal – Demonstration in front of Stock-Market headquarters. Fb event.
in Porto, Portugal – Demonstration in front of Stock-Market headquarters. Portugal – Fb event.
in Viena, Austria – Read the plan of action.
#BEURSPLEINBEZETTING in Amsterdam, Netherlands – Camping in the Exchange Market Square. Fb event. Preparation meeting (13.09.2011) link. Follow @YesWeCampNL
in Tel-Aviv, Israel. Demonstration in front of Stock Exchange Headquarters. FB event.
in Paris, Place de la Bourse, France. Fb event.
in Dublin, Ireland. Fb event.

Other actions for 17th September

in Barcelona, Spain – Forum and Barcelona Hub International Meting. International meeting of social organizers in order to set a plan for a global rally on 15th October. (15-18th September)
Paris, France - Marches from Greece, France, Spain, Italy, etc. will arrive to Paris and there will be a big demonstration there. Read more in Road to Brussels, The marches to Brussels and Paris Reelle Democratie
Italy – Marches to Rome starts. Follow it in fb.
Athens, Greece proposes to boicott the banks withdrawing money for 4 days, still not clear when do they start (decided on Syntagma assembly on September 5th)
Cambridge, UK – Workshops on the financial crisis. Flyer here.

http://antibanks.takethesquare.net/

[Tabarnack]

http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/us-protesters-rally-occupy-wall-street

[AnonymousOne]

There were about 2000. Still, I am very disappointed. Only about a 10th of what we were expecting for numbers showed up. I think it ultimately has failed in it's goals, but we'll see what happens. This was supposed to be a long-term event, so I'll give it some more time.

[AnonymousOne]

Is anybody at this? How's it going?

About 2000 people, most of Wall Street is blocked off. Plans are being made. Pretty underwhelming considering our expectations were more for tens of thousands.

[Kadir Ateş]

It was ridiculous. I showed up and saw a bunch of Ron Paul supporters, a Christian group and a bunch of left-liberal hipsters.

So basically the working class was nowhere in sight.

[AnonymousOne]

It was ridiculous. I showed up and saw a bunch of Ron Paul supporters, a Christian group and a bunch of left-liberal hipsters.

So basically the working class was nowhere in sight.

It wasn't as bad as you're making it out to be. There were hundreds of comrades there. Although Lyndon LaRouche's group did make me want to vomit.

[Kadir Ateş]

It wasn't as bad as you're making it out to be. There were hundreds of comrades there. Although Lyndon LaRouche's group did make me want to vomit. Right, what was it supposed to be, a petty bourgeois "popular front"? Plus, why was it held on a day when the market was closed?

[AnonymousOne]

Right, what was it supposed to be, a petty bourgeois "popular front"? Plus, why was it held on a day when the market was closed?

I'll ignore the pejorative use of petite-bourgeois. But yes, the general idea was get a lot of people together in one place, regardless of ideological purity, and then make a concerted anti-corporate protest.

My own personal decision to get involved was the hope that it could be steered anti-capitalist. Of course, I also thought that a bunch of people occupying Wall Street was in and of itself a good thing regardless of whether or not they were left-liberals, anarchists, communists, or any of the other random groups that showed up. I will mention that the atmosphere is in general of a left-populist variety, calls for putting government back into the hands of the 99% etc.

I have no idea why that day was chosen.

[28350]

It was basically an activist circlejerk. There was yoga and facepainting.

[Smyg]

Yoga and facepainting? Oh god.

Bring in the nukes. It's the only way to make sure.

[Kadir Ateş]

No working class, no movement. Period.

[Leftsolidarity]

What working class person can give up even a week to go protest in New York?

[Leonid Brozhnev]

https://occupywallst.org/media/img/ows-photo2.jpg

I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

[Smyg]

Laugh. I do believe that's what memes are for.

[RedHal]

livestream

http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution

[28350]

Also it's not much of an occupation when the police block off the majority of surrounding pedestrian public space and lightly kettle the crowd. There were maaaaany cops, not even counting plainclothed ones

[ComradeOmar]

Basically just another useless and ignored protest

[tbasherizer]

I like the Peoples' Microphone. I like that Adbusters is doing something beyond being the hip "anarchist" magazine and that Anonymous is going beyond taking a few websites down. I mean sure, it's only a few thousand people, but at the same time, it's a few thousand people. I'm sure none of our own organizations could mobilize those kinds of numbers. We should watch (or even better, participate in) this and learn from the experience.

[KurtFF8]

It seems this action was a failure from the start. Their stated goal was to occupy and stay on Wall st., yet they never set foot on Wall St. because it was blocked off all weekend.

I'm not sure where the number of 2000 people going there came from, the highest number I heard for the peak attendance was 700 (although of course the media does underplay numbers)

Regardless, however, it seems that even a 2,000 number wouldn't be that good considering they were claiming and shooting for 20,000 folks attending.

I went down there yesterday (there were probably about 200-300 people there) and it seemed quite unorganized. They were trying to have an assembly meeting to decide pretty important thing about what direction to go in, and other folks started marching around the square they are based out of and chanting. Thus completely interrupting the meeting and eventually breaking away from it and marching around the area.

The police presence was pretty strong but I didn't sense much tension.

[W1N5T0N]

@leftsolidarity:
my point exactly :)

[wunderbar]

This whole thing was mostly organized by Adbusters, dooming it from the start.

[ellipsis]

<b>Merged Thread</b> from Upcoming events into Ongoing struggles.

[ScarletStandard]

If anything, we can hope that this will put at least one more tiny crack in the overwhelmingly frozen ideological atmosphere. A small, hesitant step, but who knows where it will lead. I'd say the least we can do for our part is to try and not suffocate these gestures, tepid as they may appear, with cynical pessimism. Of course, I don't presume much of this particular action, but I welcome it nonetheless, if only for what it may signal is to come.

[danyboy27]

is there any bus services organized to carry the poor unemployed down there? you know, the 99er who are basically starving and lost their job beccause of these fools? with enough angry folks i bet they could occupy the new-york stock exchange room, and that would be epic.

[eric922]

Well apparently some arrests were just made and the National Lawyers Guild volunteered legal aspects. This is all from someone on another forum, whose kids are there so I don't have links.

[KurtFF8]

is there any bus services organized to carry the poor unemployed down there? you know, the 99er who are basically starving and lost their job beccause of these fools? with enough angry folks i bet they could occupy the new-york stock exchange room, and that would be epic.

Not that I'm aware of. Everyone I've heard of that came from out of town did so on their own dime (from what I've heard of course which is anecdotal). I could be wrong (And hope I am) but it seems that the amount of organization for this event was quite low in general.

[willdw79]

The likely outcome of this is a lackluster showing that is dispersed rather quickly by the local police, which doesn't really do much given the reformist nature of these moderate demands. Best case scenario it actually manages to gain some momentum and the president co-opts the protest by creating some ineffectual and impotent commission that doesn't even achieve the aims of this subdued objective, so still rather useless.
These folks cannot be co-opted. Check this out, kinda rough, but u can get the drift: http://bit.ly/qd5ctY . But anyway, capitalism attacks workers on a variety of fronts. The new front that these folks are trying to open up in a counter-attack, can be important if it becomes a popular movement and the NYPD bungles their handling of it. Support their cause.

[agnixie]

This whole thing was mostly organized by Adbusters, dooming it from the start.

It was called by adbusters. Their involvement in organizing was limited and we stunned them into inaction. The website which has been claimed to have been put up by adbusters was done by an anarchist friend and we're mostly an anarchist collective maintaining us.

This protest is its own propaganda. We have had more visibility since it started a week ago than in the month of preparation we had. We have groups of the hard left involved since the very first day.

If you want to have media access, then become a capitalist. The protests in Tunis were ignored for three weeks as they marched on the government. Are we anywhere near this? No, this is a dress rehearsal.

The world is walking towards a revolutionary situation.

For all the liberal sounding fluff, we've been introducing anarcho-communist concepts to people who would never have imagined them, we've made them accessible to people who thought they were capitalists, liberals, conservatives, and suddenly realized that beyond the propaganda, their claimed ideology is a sham.

The demand to end special interests comes from only one organization: US Day of Rage. They are a relatively small voice, and their demand has been torn apart for its weak points: the claim to one demand can only be one program and we're steering towards this and ensuring something that is more than a mere electoral reform, we want our organization to be in a way the demand as everything is put together into a collective organization. Our organization is mostly dealing with local logistics: we just got hold of a large kitchen from a cooperative bakery, we have groups coming in, we're forming teams, scouts, communication groups. Outreach to labor and student unions is paying off. 11 cities are forming assemblies upon seeing that, yes, this is real, their numbers are growing. We got 250 newcomers from Vermont on the way for NYC itself.


You want to make a strawman about adbusters? Go ahead, but you're missing the real movement. Anarchists, syndicalists, communists were involved from day one. A lot of us are ready and willing to go all the way: are you, comrades, or will you be merely content nodding in disagreement as we approach the occasion of a century, like the porcelain mandarin in the tale. We're building a movement.


is there any bus services organized to carry the poor unemployed down there? you know, the 99er who are basically starving and lost their job beccause of these fools? with enough angry folks i bet they could occupy the new-york stock exchange room, and that would be epic.

Some groups are forming bus collectives, I know this was done in WI, Vermont, Washington and Virginia. We have carpool groups as well. We also are encouraging people to take every square, every public place. Squat foreclosed and abandoned buildings if need be.

We're reaching out for general strikes as I type, to local labor foremost. We have members of the red and the black involved in the core committees since day one, and not all of us are going for the fuzzy nonviolence out of more than tactical considerations.


Also I already bet a 20 that I'd have people singing the internationale in NYC by winter :p

[black magick hustla]

anyone that was expecting a lot of people instead of assorted wingnuts and loons needs to start paying attention to have social ruptures happen. hint: they do not start with a heavily elaborated plan, with PR work and everything. they start when nobody expects them and then some people are able to ride the wave.

[black magick hustla]

the revolution will not be televised, but pushed through hipster magazines and assorted wingnut blogs

[agnixie]

anyone that was expecting a lot of people instead of assorted wingnuts and loons needs to start paying attention to have social ruptures happen. hint: they do not start with a heavily elaborated plan, with PR work and everything. they start when nobody expects them and then some people are able to ride the wave.

Elaborate PR plans? Dude, we're running on a shoestring budget and word of mouth. Wingnuts? What wingnuts? We've had one Ron Paul troll at all and the wingnuts fucking hate us.


the revolution will not be televised, but pushed through hipster magazines and assorted wingnut blogs

That would be the same wingnut blogs which claimed we were a shadowy cabal of ACORN, SEIU and (the last part is true) anarchists and commies funded (this bit is false) by the feds to the tune of millions (I wish).

Oh, we also have plans for a daycare/tutoring system for kids. With a bit of radical education thrown in.

[RED DAVE]

In the absence of any connectin to the working class, these things become pathetic demonstrations of the weakness of those portions of the Left that organize them.

RED DAVE

[agnixie]

In the absence of any connectin to the working class, these things become pathetic demonstrations of the weakness of those portions of the Left that organize them.

RED DAVE

What absence? Who the hell do you think was involved from the start? Adbusters only? Adbusters is a bunch of dissident ex-market-drones in British Columbia who realized they still had souls. They would never have been able to do this had the call not been heeded and they're out of their league trying to get something like this running. But it's one hell of a timely excuse.

We've had wobblies in every assembly, we've been organizing with local union locals. There are solidarity strikes being organized, and not only student strikes. The core organizers were largely workers, even in the most limited understanding of the term, which added to the compexity of finding time.

BTW, I'd like to know what the naysayers are doing. Like, beyond saying nay.

[RED DAVE]

We've had wobblies in every assemblyHardly constituting labor involvement.


we've been organizing with local union locals.Which locals, please?


There are solidarity strikes being organized, and not only student strikes.Details please.


The core organizers were largely workers, even in the most limited understanding of the term, which added to the compexity of finding time.A little more information on this, please.


BTW, I'd like to know what the naysayers are doing. Like, beyond saying nay.I myself am currently involved in a union organizing drive. I can't speak for any others.

RED DAVE

[agnixie]

Recent actions in solidarity with the Teamsters local 814, which our labor committee spent about a week planning with them, we have just been joined by the Professional Staff Congress, and we apparently had significant help from the new york public workers' union from the get go (or at least part of it).

We've had all of six weeks to get things sort of running and people meeting since the first protest we held at the bull in August. But I feel I'm going to deal mostly with more goalpost shifting.

[Ele'ill]

So I hear this stuff is still going on. How is it working out- every weekend there's an occupation or is this a continuous thing? I've heard numerous reports that there's been a consistent 700 people occupying/marching the area. Is this true?

I agree that this needs more labor oriented agitation and perhaps should have started there but this is what we have to work with now.

[agnixie]

So I hear this stuff is still going on. How is it working out- every weekend there's an occupation or is this a continuous thing? I've heard numerous reports that there's been a consistent 700 people occupying/marching the area. Is this true?

I agree that this needs more labor oriented agitation and perhaps should have started there but this is what we have to work with now.

Continuous. Numbers tend to vary from day to day, the permanent occupation the first week was something like 200-300 but after a week we're getting busloads of people being sent by activist groups in other states and it's hard to keep track.

We're actually trying to push the labor agitation further, there will be a labor committee public meeting this evening at 7pm.

[RED DAVE]

Recent actions in solidarity with the Teamsters local 814What, specifically, do you mean by "actions in solidarity with"? Are you working with individual workers, a rank-and-file committee, a large group of workers, the leadership? What?


which our labor committee spent about a week planning with themDoes this mean that will some official person of the union, you planned an action.


we have just been joined by the Professional Staff CongressWhat do you mean by "joined"?


and we apparently had significant help from the new york public workers' union from the get go (or at least part of it).Please elaborate.


We've had all of six weeks to get things sort of running and people meeting since the first protest we held at the bull in August. But I feel I'm going to deal mostly with more goalpost shifting.Huh?

The reason I'm asking these questions so minutely is that it is very easy for an organization, a tendency, even an individual to consciously or unconsciously, or just through the sloppy use of words, distort an event, it's size, significance, etc. We need to get used to accurately reporting what we're doing and become accustomed to assessing what's posted.

RED DAVE

[Binh]

I came, I saw, I wrote two reports:

http://www.marxmail.org/msg95675.html (Tuesday)

http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/09/23/executioners-in-the-suites/ (Thursday)

[apawllo]

Noticed they have this site up now: http://occupytogether.org/

Will be interesting to see how this grows...

[Die Rote Fahne]

I don't know much about this, but is this more of a liberal whine festival and Obama lovefest, or actual working class agitation?

[Leftsolidarity]

I don't know much about this, but is this more of a liberal whine festival and Obama lovefest, or actual working class agitation?

Seems just like a liberal whine festival

[agnixie]

I don't know much about this, but is this more of a liberal whine festival and Obama lovefest, or actual working class agitation?

You people are hilarious. Obama lovefest? :laugh:


Seems just like a liberal whine festival

A very cogent and well thought out answer. I wasn't aware that the end of capitalism was a liberal aim.

[Smyg]

American liberals - not European ones - tend to be vaguely anti-capitalistic.

[agnixie]

American liberals - not European ones - tend to be vaguely anti-capitalistic.

No, american liberals are at the absolute most leftwards soft social democrats.

[Smyg]

I said vaguely anti-capitalist, not anti-capitalist. There's a difference between "we need to abolish the current system of economy" and "corporations are bad, man".

[human strike]

They're saying there was 60+ arrests today. I can believe that given what I saw on the livestream: http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution

[Ele'ill]

Portland IMC now has a live stream up covering the events. This has potential.


Where are we?

[Luís Henrique]

Revolutionaries don't do reformist things like that.

Revolutionaries sit on front of their computers, complaining things like that are not revolutionary enough for their revolutionary tastes.

Luís Henrique

[Cambyses]

Anti-Occupy Wall Street Champaign Toast Today (http://gothamist.com/2011/09/23/anti-occupy_wall_street_champagne_t.php)

Did this actually happen?

[Binh]

I think this is footage of when they marched in solidarity with Troy Davis prior to his execution:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_nRVhzm3Vc

[Die Rote Fahne]

You people are hilarious. Obama lovefest? :laugh:


A very cogent and well thought out answer. I wasn't aware that the end of capitalism was a liberal aim.
Yes, because the character of these protests is so very socialist and working class. Right :rolleyes:.

Especially since a large number of Americans think Socialism = Social Democracy, or STALINNNNN!!!!

[Diello]

Yes, because the character of these protests is so very socialist and working class. Right :rolleyes:.

Especially since a large number of Americans think Socialism = Social Democracy, or STALINNNNN!!!!

Your second point doesn't reinforce your first point. I've known numerous people who were against "socialism" (i.e., Stalin/Obama) who were in favor of socialism. An event can be pro-socialist and anti-"socialist."

On another note, I cringed fairly hard to see that one of the screeds on occupywallstreet.org was changed from referring to "capitalists" to "bosses" when commenters complained it sounded too radical.

Update: I hear that police have arrested 80-100 people and that there's been a fair bit of tazing, clubbing, and pepper-spraying.

[agnixie]

There are current fears that the police may descend on the park where numbers on both sides are swelling.

We have one person in critical condition at Beth Israel, the NLG says over 80 people arrested. From the reports it seems they initially targetted people who had been visible at meetings: facilitators, committee volunteers, our entire media crew volunteers, plus anyone who was caught around them. 5 women were pepper sprayed point blank in the face, after being circled by a bunch of cops it seems. Incidentally, the current head of the NYC wobblies is part of the arrested, I have a few other names but this has been too hectic and our legal team (committee volunteers, NLG and iirc the NYCLA) is trying to figure out the names of the remainder.

Also, a lot of these americans against socialism don't know what capitalism or socialism are, either. I just talked to a capitalist who thought capitalism was about workers controlling their labor and money supply being controlled by the people. That's where we come in - people are receptive to ideas and when they know the ideas themselves they'll see that the name of the ideas itself is not to be feared. Most people don't know there are alternatives and what they are, they think state ownership is the only thing besides boss ownership, and many people don't even know coops exist or how they work.

[Tabarnack]

Occupy Wall Street - Day 7 (Police Brutality)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157627744225952

[MattShizzle]

Fucking cocksucker pigs abusing their authority! I wish they'd get shot or disarmed, dragged off and beaten to death. Some "liberals" say it's ok for them to arrest protesters. To me that's fucking reactionary. It's not free to require a permit for peaceful protest. They keep this shit up time for more people to break out guns, molotovs and start making IEDs.

[Tabarnack]

They keep this shit up time for more people to break out guns, molotovs and start making IEDs.

That is what the ruling class wants, they seek to provoke violence because they can deal with that, they are experts at it, but a million people in the streets in peaceful demonstration with a common project that doesn't include them, well that scare the shit out of them...

[MattShizzle]

Except when the protests are non-violent the fucking pigs find a reason to arrest them. Bullshit like "disturbing the peace" or requiring a permit to protest and not giving them out.

[MattShizzle]

WiX7GTelTPM

[agnixie]

Except when the protests are non-violent the fucking pigs find a reason to arrest them. Bullshit like "disturbing the peace" or requiring a permit to protest and not giving them out.


That is what the ruling class wants, they seek to provoke violence because they can deal with that, they are experts at it, but a million people in the streets in peaceful demonstration with a common project that doesn't include them, well that scare the shit out of them...

Yeah, they're afraid, but we're not strong enough yet. Build forces, uplift people, agitate, educate, then they'll shit bricks.

And then we'll see if they try to escalate, we'll stand ready.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Don't really have any hopes for this. The Spain occupations had a lot more potential, with 100,000+ people involved, and those fizzled out quickly.

But, y'know, maybe it'll gain some sort of significance and I'll be wrong. (shrug)

[No_Leaders]

Interesting side note all the major media has failed to report this of course (what do you expect?) msnbc.com has reported on the arrests. I found the comments rather interesting (as you know most articles turn into flame wars by mostly fascist right wingers) seems like most folks support it.

http://world-news.newsvine.com/_news/2011/09/24/7945486-80-arrested-at-occupy-wall-street-protest?pc=25&sp=0#discussion_nav

[redwog]

This idea is a good one and should be supported materially by the rev left (or what exists of it). The biggest problem hindering the development of genuine social movements is the lack of space to develop the required political, social and class composition. The material conditions are NOT the stifling agent. So sitting around waiting for them to change misunderstands Marxism in its entirety.

The idea of occupying is a good one as it creates a momentary break out from the atomised existance that most of us are victim of (the results of which are us typing sh!t from behind computer screens instead of meeting face to face)

I am not surprised by the necromancers still feeding off the fetish of our dead elders and defining everything outside of the 'line' as rubbish. What I am surprised about is the lack of strategic thought suggesting how to move forward and build movements.

[coda]

the pigs are arresting smashing heads on pavement and teargassing or macing

[agnixie]

For RedDave - sorry I missed you answer - for the first part
- The Sothebys action with the teamsters last week is what I meant.
- I mean there's building support for a general student and staff strike at CUNY, at the very least they came over to make public addresses (the current chair of the PSC did)
- I have no idea, I got the info from an organizer who told me he'd called DC 37 to ask if they were planning to do anything and got told that they had been involved from early on. I don't know the exact details.

As for distorting, I only put out what I knew was certain, although I apologize for vagueness. I know there has been at least one internal memo in another major union in solidarity to make sure people knew about this (the USW) but I'm not aware of their position on things besides vague enthusiasm.

Also, the chair of the NYC IWW was among the people arrested.

[ВАЛТЕР]

https://rt.com/news/wall-street-protest-arrests-331/

How serious can this get? I mean, if the police keep provoking, there will be a response on the side of the protestors. Right?

[KurtFF8]

https://rt.com/news/wall-street-protest-arrests-331/

How serious can this get? I mean, if the police keep provoking, there will be a response on the side of the protestors. Right?

Or more likely: it will be the end of "occupy wall st"

[MattShizzle]

The group Anonymous is threatening revenge against the NYPD for the police violence...

[Tabarnack]

Day 8, OCCUPY WALL STREET.

tLEIVMki0D8

[Binh]

Quick question. Is there a single person among the above who
a) Knows the terrain of Wall Street;
b) has participated in a march on Wall Street;
c) has actually had to deal with New York City cops and
d)has enough experience of any of the above to contribute something constructive?


Yes and I wrote about it. Links posted in this thread too. No replies. :thumbup1:

[ВАЛТЕР]

Or more likely: it will be the end of "occupy wall st"

Yeah, that seems like the most likely outcome. The people in the US have no class conciousness in general, so I doubt anything will come from this protest. Most will probably get discouraged and go home. Which is what the bourgeoisie is aiming for. They need to be agitated and encouraged to fight back. A crash course on class warfare if you will.

[Tabarnack]

The group Anonymous is threatening revenge against the NYPD for the police violence...

This should tell you who "Anonymous" truly represents... giving a reason for the ruling class to clamp down, like those black bloc "anarchist" in their police issued boots and matching costume breaking windows and setting fire to police cars while cops stand back, all of this on cue so it gets on the evening news...

[bricolage]

This should tell you who "Anonymous" truly represents... giving a reason for the ruling class to clamp down,
They don't need an excuse bro.

like those black bloc "anarchist" in their police issued boots and matching costume breaking windows and setting fire to police cars while cops stand back, all of this on cue so it gets on the evening news...What is this the 90s?

[Diello]

This just in from one of the demonstrators: "Just left the camp as they were handing out what looked like eviction notices..."

Don't know exactly what this signifies yet.

[eyeheartlenin]

To expand on what cde agnixie wrote, the following came in last night, Saturday, 10 p.m.:

Call for Solidarity with Wobblies Held in Van Outside 1st Precinct

This report just came in a half hour ago from the chair of the NYC IWW chapter:

There were 60-80 arrests at an Occupy Wall Street demo this afternoon, including a handful of NYC-area Wobblies, one of whom is reported to have suffered a critical head injury. The organizers are asking folks to support the arrestees by calling the police stations to demand their release. Details are below:

Protesters arrested today (including the NYC IWW chair) are being locked inside a police van outside the: 1st Precinct Police Station, 16 Ericsson Pl., New York, NY 10013 +1 (212) 334-0611

They've been there for over an hour. One has a very bad concussion, possibly life threatening.

[Tabarnack]

They don't need an excuse bro.
What is this the 90s?

Yes they do...they always try to control the narrative to justify their actions, always.

2010 G20 Toronto summit.

[Diello]

According to one of the people on the ground, it looks like the city is going to try to evict the protesters using a private security force in the immediate future.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

That is what the ruling class wants, they seek to provoke violence because they can deal with that, they are experts at it, but a million people in the streets in peaceful demonstration with a common project that doesn't include them, well that scare the shit out of them...
You're joking right, like they don't know what to do with peaceful protesters? What are they doing now? Arresting them, busting their heads on the pavement, pepper spraying them, etc. But they have no clue what to do, they see peaceful activists and get so damn confused :rolleyes:
They're experts at violence whether you're peaceful or not.

[ВАЛТЕР]

You're joking right, like they don't know what to do with peaceful protesters? What are they doing now? Arresting them, busting their heads on the pavement, pepper spraying them, etc. But they have no clue what to do, they see peaceful activists and get so damn confused :rolleyes:
They're experts at violence whether you're peaceful or not.


Well said comrade.

They do not provoke the protestors, they try to discourage them by making their efforts seem in vain. The bourgeoisie shows their teeth whenever they feel threatened. I would rather the protestors fight back than sit there and get harassed and beat for nothing.

[bricolage]

Yes they do...they always try to control the narrative to justify their actions, always.
So you've never seen a nonviolent protest attacked by cops? Happens all the time.

[Tabarnack]

Well said comrade.

They do not provoke the protestors, they try to discourage them by making their efforts seem in vain. The bourgeoisie shows their teeth whenever they feel threatened. I would rather the protestors fight back than sit there and get harassed and beat for nothing.


Then YOU go and attack a cop and face a prison term as a convicted felon, and turn this struggle into a pointless brawl, keyboard warrior...:rolleyes:

[Rusty Shackleford]

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls2614tFh71r2xilko1_500.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls2614tFh71r2xilko2_r1_500.jpg


fucking pigs.

[Tabarnack]

So you've never seen a nonviolent protest attacked by cops? Happens all the time.

What happens all the time is that the cops always justify their actions, so now we have to assist the cops by providing them a motive for their actions...

[A Revolutionary Tool]

What happens all the time is that the cops always justify their actions, so now we have to assist the cops by providing them a motive for their actions...

I'd rather "assist the cops in providing a motive"(especially since it's pretty clear it doesn't matter if you're peaceful or not, you're getting pepper sprayed whether you like it or not) than get beat anyways without doing anything wrong. It's called self-defense, they push, you push back harder. Occupying Wall Street doesn't sound very legal, they're going to use force regardless of how peaceful you are in the end because the law will allow it. If people really want to occupy the place without getting kettled into little protest zones by police(rendering them ineffective) they are going to have to fight for it, not sit in circles singing songs as the police drag you away one by one.

[Tabarnack]

I'd rather "assist the cops in providing a motive"(especially since it's pretty clear it doesn't matter if you're peaceful or not, you're getting pepper sprayed whether you like it or not) than get beat anyways without doing anything wrong. It's called self-defense, they push, you push back harder. Occupying Wall Street doesn't sound very legal, they're going to use force regardless of how peaceful you are in the end because the law will allow it. If people really want to occupy the place without getting kettled into little protest zones by police(rendering them ineffective) they are going to have to fight for it, not sit in circles singing songs as the police drag you away one by one.

That attitude from people who would not even be bothered in showing up to give their support to this struggle because it wasn't "pure enough"... but are now pushing for violence against the cops... right! can it be any more obvious... hopefully there is nobody here stupid enough to bite on this worm. What these activist need on wall street is more bodies, to the point that it would become unmanageable for the authorities, not violence.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Back in '97 some people in Eugene, Oregon sat in some trees in order to delay their removal for one day, until a scheduled debate could be held regarding their removal. They just sat in the trees. In response the police literally doused them with pepper spray, even cutting open one guy's pants in order to spray mace up unto his crotch.

That's just one incident, but it's a nice illustration of how the police don't give a shit about if people are being "violent" or not.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

That attitude from people who would not even be bothered in showing up to give their support to this struggle because it wasn't "pure enough"... but are now pushing for violence against the cops... right! can it be any more obvious... hopefully there is nobody here stupid enough to bite on this worm. What these activist need on wall street is more bodies, to the point that it would become unmanageable for the authorities, not violence.
I'm not so sure but did you just insinuate that I was an undercover or something? Well yeah it isn't really "pure"(considering the message isn't even at the very least anti-capitalist) but I would have showed up to support anyways. Too bad I live all the way across the country in California. But if you want to buy me a two way plane ticket out to NYC that would be awesome. But no I'm sorry you wouldn't like me there, I would be trying to get people to defend themselves against the cops, I'd most likely get turned over to the cops by a bunch of pacifists. You're trying to occupy Wall Street, if you get enough numbers to actually do that then you're going to have to be able to defend yourselves from the police when they try to get everybody occupying the place out. What happens when they try to forcibly remove everybody? Or have you not thought that part through.

Oh I see your answer is they won't dare if enough people show up to occupy Wall Street(I guess that number was 20,000 considering that was the goal). That's hella funny, keep on dreaming.

[agnixie]

We're reviewing our statements on cops to sound less liberal - more a call for beat cops to break ranks and join fellow workers if they're opposed to the brutality demanded out of them (I know people like to keep the notion that we're bougie students, but some of us are risking (admittedly shitty) jobs on it, a lot of us are already laid off, and, well, official youth unemployment is fucking 45%) rather than say they're not the enemy. The institution is very much the enemy, but we're intent on playing with the fact that beat cops seem less responsible for shit than their bosses in our footage to the hilt: every dissension we can dig into a rift is good.

Tabarnack - I'll be honest, most of us are non-violent for tactical considerations.

[Diello]

I think at this point that nonviolent protesters being brutalized by cops makes for infinitely better propaganda than protesters getting into a brawl with cops and then getting thrown in jail. I think that responding with violence is only going to increase support if the result isn't immediate and total defeat.

[Spets]

War is when the government tells you who the bad guy is. Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.

[Agent Equality]

honestly I would be in favor of attacking the police. Just seeing them senselessly beat these protestors for trying to protest against capitalism CLEARLY confirms their status as bourgeois class enforcers and should be fought against at the highest level.

I mean it doesnt have to turn into a riot but if you get enough people there and they still keep trying to protect the capitalists, then they need to go down.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Then YOU go and attack a cop and face a prison term as a convicted felon, and turn this struggle into a pointless brawl, keyboard warrior...:rolleyes:

Believe me when I say this, I would have no problems with attacking the police.
By myself? No, that is sheer idiocy to even suggest. What I am saying is that if the protestors are already going to get pushed around and harassed, at least fight back. To sit there and watch your comrades get maced, beaten, and arrested is stupid as hell and infuriating.

[Code]

You guys are going to scare the general public away by the ones who want to attacking first, and it'll just be like the WTO thing in Seatle. But be ready to defend your territory if they come enmass. Set up very good defenses. Be vigilant. Put on goggles and masks/lemon-juiced bandanas when the spray comes out

[ВАЛТЕР]

I am not suggesting that the public attack first. However, if it has already come to the point where they arrest and beat the people, what other course of actions do you have?

[palotin]

Does anyone have a sense of how many people are presently involved in the protests? I'm also curious how many were at Saturday's march.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Does anyone have a sense of how many people are presently involved in the protests? I'm also curious how many were at Saturday's march.

I've heard estimates from hundreds, up to the thousands. Depends on where you hear it from. The media is downplaying it so unless you ask someone who is there I doubt you'll get a correct answer.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Here, https://occupywallst.org/ their actions seem in vain. They are more like hippies rather than militant leftists...nothing to see here folks, move along.

[agnixie]

Here, https://occupywallst.org/ their actions seem in vain. They are more like hippies rather than militant leftists...nothing to see here folks, move along.

Sorry, I didn't realize this a forum for wannabe Nixon impersonators.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

Couple of months I suggested that it would be a dumb tactical mistake to plan this kind of event without real knowledge of the facts on the ground. These facts include something that just about every New Yorker knows unless their head is up the rosy red butt of their fantasy life: that the NYPD (that's the cops) have developed some of the most vicious, most manipulative sets of techniques for getting around even the most basic constitutional rights of demonstrators.

All in all, though, this was a very successful action. Sure, coupla out-a-towners got themselves maced, but the reaction from your average New Yorker has been very positive, even the New York Times has deigned to notice that the police tactics were unacceptable - which feeds into other stuff that's going on here in terms of police brutality, racism, and the upcoming mayoral race.

So perhaps the next demo will be organized the way we used to do it in the 'sixties: you know, like, actual, ummm, planning: legal support, security, specific, pre-planned levels of involvement, etc.

[agnixie]

Couple of months I suggested that it would be a dumb tactical mistake to plan this kind of event without real knowledge of the facts on the ground. These facts include something that just about every New Yorker knows unless their head is up the rosy red butt of their fantasy life: that the NYPD (that's the cops) have developed some of the most vicious, most manipulative sets of techniques for getting around even the most basic constitutional rights of demonstrators.
We knew.



So perhaps the next demo will be organized the way we used to do it in the 'sixties: you know, like, actual, ummm, planning: legal support, security, specific, pre-planned levels of involvement, etc.
Security was planned for but the problem is a few people's absolute insistance on non-violence, to the point where any diversity of tactics has to be discussed discretely. We're working with the NLG. Demands, well: I'll be honest, a lot of us would rather stall for the demand than have some bullshit parliamentarianism.

For the rest, thank you for the advice, I admit that we're not so much working out the kinks of logistics as working out the logistics in the massive pile of kinks we're having. (I suspect that might come out wrong :p ).

I'll take note for a few bits, actually, since for all intents we're still essentially organizing logistics as we go so long as it's not too big.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Sorry, I didn't realize this a forum for wannabe Nixon impersonators.

Sorry, maybe I don't know what other word to use? Maybe English is my second language? What word would you suggest I use? Cowards? Boy/Girl Scouts who are there for a picnic rather for a serious movement?

[Ele'ill]

The problem was that there was no emphasis on what a 'success' or 'victory' would look like and there was no change in goals 'on-the-fly' as far as I know. I understand this is all still going on and we'll have to see as the weeks progress. An even greater problem- By the end of all this, when everyone walks away- they're not going to have any idea if being penned in, sprayed, beaten and arrested was a success or a massive loss/complete waste of time. I'd have to say if business as usual went on uninterrupted then this was a loss and the tactics need to change.

[Sentinel]

Regardless of the nature and outcome of this event, it is something we can learn from -- even though we may not agree what.

I've stickied this thread, as well as a separate one with a live stream from the event.

[Ele'ill]

I just think we've had plenty of events to learn from but there's a disconnect of some sort. Nothing is remembered.

[Red And Black Sabot]

Hopefully this isn't a dupe post but I thought this was great...

anonymous leaks personal details of cop who pepper sprayed wall street protesters
:laugh:

http://gawker.com/5843908/anonymous-leaks-personal-details-of-cop-who-pepper+sprayed-wall-street-protesters

[ВАЛТЕР]

Hopefully this isn't a dupe post but I thought this was great...

anonymous leaks personal details of cop who pepper sprayed wall street protesters
:laugh:

http://gawker.com/5843908/anonymous-leaks-personal-details-of-cop-who-pepper+sprayed-wall-street-protesters

Maybe now he learns that all actions have consequences...

[Os Cangaceiros]

http://anarchistnews.org/?q=node/15420

[KurtFF8]

I've heard estimates from hundreds, up to the thousands. Depends on where you hear it from. The media is downplaying it so unless you ask someone who is there I doubt you'll get a correct answer.

The last few times I went, the highest amount of people (minus when the Troy Davis Rally met up with them on Thursday which inflated the numbers by a couple hundred at least which was awesome) was probably about 200-300. And that was Saturday which was supposed to be kind of a revival kind of day for it.

Although I heard there were a lot more people earlier on in the day before I was there

[Agent Equality]

This is fucking ridiculous
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PiXDTK_CBY)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PiXDTK_CBY

When can the revolution start?

[ВАЛТЕР]

This is fucking ridiculous
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PiXDTK_CBY)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PiXDTK_CBY

When can the revolution start?

"let them eat cake"

[Diello]

There are as-yet-unconfirmed reports that 100 NYPD officers are boycotting work today in solidarity with the protesters.

[KurtFF8]

There are as-yet-unconfirmed reports that 100 NYPD officers are boycotting work today in solidarity with the protesters.

Where did you hear this? I'd love to spread this but not sure about the source yet

[agnixie]

There are as-yet-unconfirmed reports that 100 NYPD officers are boycotting work today in solidarity with the protesters.

As Kurt, if we could have confirmation (haven't got any on my sources and the NYPD cut most scanner talk so we only have a handful scouts), if there's starting to be rifts in the NYPD it's awesome.

Although it will probably mean the next step is the feds.

[Bright Banana Beard]

reporting that there are pilots protesting quietly in the front of building not so far from the occupy wall street.

[Diello]

Where did you hear this? I'd love to spread this but not sure about the source yet

That there are unconfirmed reports of this has been posted on occupywallst.org and about a million other places; so far as I've been able to determine, no one's been able to prove or disprove this one. It'd help if the mainstream journalistic establishment were making a serious attempt to investigate the situation on Wall St., but that's clearly not going to happen anytime soon.

By the way, a solidarity group in my area is putting up posters bearing a picture of Uncle Sam, reading as follows:


I WANT YOU TO STOP BEING AFRAID
OF OTHER AMERICANS
OF OTHER RELIGIONS
OF OTHER CLASSES
OF SPEAKING OUT
YOU'RE AMERICANS FIRST. ACT LIKE IT!
IF YOU DON'T GET IT, ASK AN AMERICAN WHO DOES.


I'm sure you can imagine how hard I cringed at that. The following exchange ensued (online):

Me - A nationalistic mindset will not facilitate workers' liberation. I am not an American first; the fact that a worker (or an exploiter of workers) may be American is materially irrelevant.

The purveyor of the image - It's never irrelevant to point out the fact that we are all connected to each other, [name]. Suffering for one will inevitably lead to suffering for others. With regard to the preservation and success of our democracy, the fact that we are all Americans is a significant thing to be reminded of: Every action we take effects the preservation and success (or otherwise) of our country. But you're right, this movement does seem to be just an overall global uprising by our generation express total dissatisfaction with the way things have been run so far. Along with the strong conviction that change needs to happen now.

Me - "It's never irrelevant to point out the fact that we are all connected to each other, [name]."-- Well, yes; that's exactly what I'm doing. The nationalistic mindset reinforces the artificial partitions that divide workers of different nationalities; therefore, appeals to nationalism reinforce division within the working class. I realize that patriotism is an easy sell, so go ahead and utilize it if you want, but it contradicts workers' liberation.

[agnixie]

reporting that there are pilots protesting quietly in the front of building not so far from the occupy wall street.

As far as we know the action was planned independently by their union before we organized, although it can always be an occasion to fraternize.

[apawllo]

Just wondering if anyone else has tried to get involved locally. There are Facebook, Twitter, etc. sites set up in virtually every major city. I've been trying to help organize in Cincinnati but the people involved have almost zero class consciousness and it's beyond frustrating. They think it is okay to organize exclusively through the internet and universities, and that certain areas of town are off limits due to crime rates. I offered suggestions which have been ignored so I've almost bowed out...

[DeBon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgr3DiqWYCI&feature=player_embedded

I'll just leave this here...

[agnixie]

So Cornell West was addressing the crowd today. I prefer this to someone like Michael Moore, whose socialism seems to be only skin deep.

A group is forming around the idea that the one demand if we have a one demand should not be to the capitalists, but to the people, and it should be, in essence, "organize, organize, organize". Assemblies in every town, every square, every workplace, every school, every job center, every community.

As of today some of us are discussing a general strike; the main roadblock to this is the fact that US law might consider it a rebellion with a flexible enough reading of things. We're still a relatively small working group, however.

Also: all power to the people's assemblies.

That is all.

EDIT - Oh yeah, I was informed just after posting that the postal workers union had come in.

[Sasha]

meT8CJgEBQw

thats pretty o.k. reporting...

[L.A.P.]

jjF2D6XqKPw

I'm posting this not for so much the content but the footage he has of the police arrests, it looks like it's fucking brutal compared to how not threatening the protest is. Like holy shit, is there anyone who's at the protests that can tell us how much police brutality is going on over there?

[agnixie]

I'm posting this not for so much the content but the footage he has of the police arrests, it looks like it's fucking brutal compared to how not threatening the protest is. Like holy shit, is there anyone who's at the protests that can tell us how much police brutality is going on over there?

The reports I get from organizers who are on the ground tell me it's basically two rather bad incidents we had - this day (where the NYPD scanners were even asking for reinforcements from the UN security detail on the Palestine statehood conference and someone was sent to Beth Israel with a critical wound to the head), and the day people at the occupation set up tarps (which led to one guy with a pretty bad bleeding wound on the length of his leg and a disabled girl who was grabbed and ended up stuck a bit over a day in handcuffs on a chair in the first precinct medical center).

Basically otherwise it's mostly just petty shit like taking the generator gas reserves for a few hours (it might be a fire hazard), taking the media team's equipment, that sort of stuff.

So now we've been noticed by the fash who seem to be trying to organize a cadre of fash in green hair and cut off camo to "uplift" the white race... Well I guess this is getting entertaining.

[L.A.P.]

I'm actually starting to see hope in this.

[redwog]

I'm actually starting to see hope in this. I'm feeling you, I said it a few days ago. Whilst there are many political limitations, invariably this occupation is opening up a space that has been closed for a long time in the states. This is built off the back of Wisconsin et al,

See MC Immortal Technique addressing the group:http://qik.com/video/44583274

New hashtag on twitter is #occupythehood - speaks volumes for where this could go in the short term.

[xub3rn00dlex]

I read in the paper today that on Friday there is going to be a movement against 1 Police Plaza ( I think ) to protest the police brutality occurring. I'm off from school and work friday because of the holiday, so is anyone able to confirm?

[Agent Ducky]

Now all they need is RATM to go in and try to invade the trading floor again.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

So now we've been noticed by the fash who seem to be trying to organize a cadre of fash in green hair and cut off camo to "uplift" the white race... Well I guess this is getting entertaining.
Wait what?

[agnixie]

Wait what?

SFers were suggesting to send a "white cadre" on the ground to hoodwink the white members of the occupation into their Fourth Reich bullshit.

We treat it as an open invitation for some antifa action and more firm ideological foundations.

Also - I'm glad Cornell West said most of what the hard left organizers were thinking loudly since the beginning. Hopefully his voice will be heeded.

[palotin]

I'm immensely eager to know who came up with the whole 99% vs 1% rhetoric and when. It's calculated to exclude class analysis and is the most inane sort of populism. Was that present from the initial Adbusters releases?

[Tabarnack]

A Massive Union Just Voted To Side With The Wall Street Protesters

According to Daily Kos, The New York Transit Workers Union (TWU) voted to support the Wall Street Protestors at their meeting last night.

A member of TWU Local 100 told a reporter that they would join the protest Friday at 4PM.

he TWU has four main divisions: Railroad; Gaming; Airline; Transit; and Utility, University and Service. The Union has 114 autonomous locals representing over 200,000 members and retirees in 22 states around the country.

Occupy Wall Street has been picking up some decent support from unions in the past few days. Yesterday we reported that the Teamsters Union declared their support for protestors, and we also found out that the United Pilots Union had members at the protest demonstrating in uniform.

Today we learned the Industrial Workers of the World put a message of support on their website as well.

http://www.businessinsider.com/a-massive-union-just-voted-to-side-with-the-wall-street-protesters-2011-9?utm_source=twbutton&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=clusterstock#ixzz1ZM9nUBSH

[Kadir Ateş]

The movement is well-intentioned, but such sentiment never really materializes in the same manner. The issue is that it has become a spectacle for leftists whose frustration over not having a Puetro del Sol, not having a Tahrir Square, not having Syntagma Square, has led them to do anything to replicate the these events, with the most important factor left out: the massive strikes which underscored each. Such are lacking in the United States, where the events of Madison have long since dissipated and nothing more substantial has taken place in its wake.

The more I speak with the Occupy Wall Street folks, the more I realize that their frustration in fact masks a deep pessimism for the working class in the United States. They have become the self-styled vanguard, the enlightened ones who moralize to the rest of the more skeptical members of the left and the working class that they should stop hiding in their homes and come join them with sleep bags under arm.

This movement therefore bears all of the trade marks of petty bourgeois thinking: 1) That "nobody else is doing anything" and that they must spearhead a movement; 2) That involvement from the working class would be nice, but is not necessary, since they can recreate a Tahrir Square deprived of its dialectical build-up which was to a large extent founded on wildcat strike waves; 3) Because they lack any real knowledge of what capital is, they target the biggest institution of finance capital and assume that it is synonymous with finding the safety-valve of an entire social relation. Workers, who also do not understand the full extent of capital, strike and figure it out as they go, with each encounter learning more about the real capability of the state to shut down their demands. They start to question things from the bottom-up, and perhaps one day will understand the more abstract when they become more class conscious. For the protesters, quite the opposite, and yet they still do not fully understand the abstract as much as they would like to admit.

[Ocean Seal]

I'm not sure if someone pointed it out yet, but the Tea Party is coming to preach about responsible capitalism. And about how government and capitalism shouldn't mix. Should be an interesting show of people.

[agnixie]

I'm immensely eager to know who came up with the whole 99% vs 1% rhetoric and when. It's calculated to exclude class analysis and is the most inane sort of populism. Was that present from the initial Adbusters releases?

No, I actually have no clue who came up with it but it has been regularly criticized. It wasn't so much to make bosses happy as to include the unemployed and reduce the too blatantly visible socialism.

Of course it does end up include bosses.

And it's a pretty shit slogan.


I'm not sure if someone pointed it out yet, but the Tea Party is coming to preach about responsible capitalism. And about how government and capitalism shouldn't mix. Should be an interesting show of people.

I didn't realize the tea party was now anti capitalist ;)

[heyjoe]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/29/nyc-transit-union-joins-o_n_987156.html SEIU 1199 health care workers, SEIU 32 BJ building workers and the postal union are also going to support occupy wall st.


The Strong Economy for All Coalition, which receives support from the United Federation of Teachers, the Working Families Party, plus SEIU 32BJ and 1199, previously helped put together that demonstration (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/12/wall-street-march-may-12_n_861367.html). Now they will be rallying for the grassroots group.
"Their fight is our fight," director Michael Kink said. "They've chosen the right targets. We also want to see a society where folks other than the top 1 percent have a chance to say how things go."

[Binh]

Transit Workers Union voted to support OWS and will show up on Friday to march against police brutality. OWS also marched to support the postal workers earlier this week, doubling the size of their rally at Varick Street.

[~Spectre]

In random news of the day: http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/09/russell-simmons-i-will-bring-hundreds-of-thousands-to-occupy-wall-street/

Ignore the liberal bullshit he spews- what I find really interesting is that he echoes Bloomberg's fear of riots. "The poor can't buy food. Soon the only thing they'll have left to eat is the rich!".

The rich are scared. Which means we should be encouraged.

[agnixie]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/29/nyc-transit-union-joins-o_n_987156.html SEIU 1199 health care workers, SEIU 32 BJ building workers and the postal union are also going to support occupy wall st.


Transit Workers Union voted to support OWS and will show up on Friday to march against police brutality. OWS also marched to support the postal workers earlier this week, doubling the size of their rally at Varick Street.

The vote at the TWU was unanimous. :D

[Sasha]

What's behind the scorn for the Wall Street protests?

By Glenn Greenwald (http://www.salon.com/author/glenn_greenwald/index.html)
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/09/28/protests/md_horiz.jpg AP Photo/John Minchillo
A few hundred demonstrators protesting against corporations march from nearby Zucotti park to Wall Street, Tuesday, Sept. 20, 2011, in the Manhattan borough of New York.

(updated below w/correction)
It's unsurprising that establishment media outlets have been condescending (http://jdeanicite.typepad.com/i_cite/2011/09/winner-of-most-condescending-coverage-of-day-of-rage-colin-moynihan-new-york-times.html), dismissive (http://www.npr.org/blogs/ombudsman/2011/09/26/140815394/newsworthy-determining-the-importance-of-protests-on-wall-street) and scornful (http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2011/09/protesting-in-real-america_25.html) of the ongoing protests on Wall Street. Any entity that declares itself an adversary of prevailing institutional power is going to be viewed with hostility by establishment-serving institutions and their loyalists. That's just the nature of protests that take place outside approved channels, an inevitable by-product of disruptive dissent: those who are most vested in safeguarding and legitimizing establishment prerogatives (which, by definition, includes establishment media outlets) are going to be hostile to those challenges. As the virtually universal disdain in these same circles for WikiLeaks (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/11/30/wikileaks) (and, before that, for the Iraq War protests (http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3975)) demonstrated: the more effectively adversarial it is, the more establishment hostility it's going to provoke.
Nor is it surprising that much of the most vocal criticisms of the Wall Street protests has come from some self-identified progressives, who one might think would be instinctively sympathetic to the substantive message of the protesters. In an excellent analysis (http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2011/09/27/why-establishment-media-the-power-elite-loathe-occupy-wall-street/) entitled "Why Establishment Media & the Power Elite Loathe Occupy Wall Street," Kevin Gosztola chronicles how many of the most scornful criticisms have come from Democratic partisans who -- like the politicians to whom they devote their fealty -- feign populist opposition to Wall Street for political gain.
Some of this anti-protest posturing is just the all-too-familiar New-Republic-ish eagerness to prove one's own Seriousness by castigating anyone to the left of, say, Dianne Feinstein or John Kerry; for such individuals, multi-term, pro-Iraq-War Democratic Senator-plutocrats define the outermost left-wing limit of respectability. Also at play is the jingoistic notion that street protests are valid in Those Bad Countries but not in free, democratic America.
A siginificant aspect of this progressive disdain is grounded in the belief that the only valid form of political activism is support for Democratic Party candidates, and a corresponding desire to undermine anything that distracts from that goal. Indeed, the loyalists of both parties have an interest in marginalizing anything that might serve as a vehicle for activism outside of fealty to one of the two parties (Fox News' firing of Glenn Beck was almost certainly motivated by his frequent deviation from the GOP party-line orthodoxy (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/21/katiecouric/main5328053.shtml) which Fox exists to foster).
The very idea that one can effectively battle Wall Street's corruption and control by working for the Democratic Party is absurd on its face: Wall Street's favorite candidate in 2008 was Barack Obama (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2008/06/05/analysis-shares-obama-idUKNOA53525520080605), whose administration -- led by a Wall Street White House Chief of Staff (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/01/07/daley) and Wall-Street-subservient Treasury Secretary (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125502308629073925.html) and filled to the brim with Goldman Sachs officials -- is now working hard to protect bankers from meaningful accountability (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/22/business/schneiderman-is-said-to-face-pressure-to-back-bank-deal.html?pagewanted=all) (and though he's behind Wall Street's own Mitt Romney in the Wall Street cash sweepstakes this year, Obama is still doing well (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-27/romney-lures-obama-wall-street-donors-in-race-for-campaign-cash.html)); one of Wall Street's most faithful servants (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/14/business/14schumer.html?pagewanted=all) is Chuck Schumer, the money man of the Democratic Party; and the second-ranking Senate Democrat acknowledged -- when Democrats controlled the Congress -- that the owners of Congress are bankers (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/29/dick-durbin-banks-frankly_n_193010.html). There are individuals who impressively rail against the crony capitalism and corporatism that sustains Wall Street's power, but they're no match for the party apparatus that remains fully owned and controlled by it.
But much of this progressive criticism consists of relatively (ostensibly) well-intentioned tactical and organizational critiques (http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/09/occupy-wall-street) of the protests: there wasn't a clear unified message; it lacked a coherent media strategy; the neo-hippie participants were too off-putting to Middle America; the resulting police brutality overwhelmed the message, etc. etc. That's the high-minded form which most progressive scorn for the protests took: it's just not professionally organized or effective.
Some of these critiques are ludicrous. Does anyone really not know what the basic message is of this protest: that Wall Street is oozing corruption and criminality and its unrestrained political power -- in the form of crony capitalism and ownership of political institutions -- is destroying financial security for everyone else? Beyond that, criticizing protesters for the prominence of police brutality stories is pure victim-blaming (and, independently, having police brutality highlighted is its own benefit).
Most importantly, very few protest movements enjoy perfect clarity about tactics or command widespread support when they begin; they're designed to spark conversation, raise awareness, attract others to the cause, and build those structural planks as they grow and develop. Dismissing these incipient protests because they lack fully developed, sophisticated professionalization is akin to pronouncing a three-year-old child worthless because he can't read Schopenhauer: those who are actually interested in helping it develop will work toward improving those deficiencies, not harp on them in order to belittle its worth.
That said, some of these organizational/tactical critiques are valid enough as far as they go; the protests could probably be more effective with some more imaginative, concerted and savvy organizational strategies. The problem is these criticisms don't go very far -- at all.
* * * * *
There's a vast and growing apparatus of intimidation designed to deter and control citizen protests. The most that's allowed is to assemble with the permission of state authorities and remain roped off in sequestered, out-of-the-way areas: the Orwellian-named free speech zones (http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/secret-service-ordered-local-police-restrict-anti-bush-protesters-rallies-aclu-charges-u). Anything that is even remotely disruptive or threatening is going to be met with aggressive force: pepper spray, mass arrests by highly militarized urban police forces, and aggressive prosecutions. Recall the wild excesses of force in connection with the 2008 RNC Convention in Minneapolis (I reported on (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2008/09/01/protests) those firsthand (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2008/08/30/police_raids)); the overzealous prosecutions of civil disobedience activists (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/08/19/surveillance) like Aaron Swartz, environmentalist Tim DeChristopher, and Dan Choi; the war being waged on whistleblowers for the crime of exposing high-level wrongdoing; or the treatment of these Wall Street protesters (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/09/an-important-video-to-watch-pepper-spray-by-a-cruel-and-cowardly-nyc-cop/245629/).
Financial elites and their political servants are well aware that exploding wealth inequality, pervasive economic anxiety, and increasing hostility toward institutions of authority (and corresponding realization that voting fixes very little of this) are likely to bring London-style unrest -- and worse -- to American soil; it was just two weeks ago that New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg warned (http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/16/news/economy/bloomberg_jobs_riots/index.htm) that the unemployment crisis could trigger "riots." Even the complacent American citizenry -- well-trained in learned impotence and acquiescence to (even reverence for) those most responsible for their plight -- is going to reach a tipping point of unrest. There are numerous weapons of surveillance and coercion that have been developed over the last decade in anticipation of that unrest: most of it justified in the name of Terrorism, but all of it featuring decidedly dual-use domestic capability (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/08/19/surveillance) (illustrating what I mean is this chart (http://www.good.is/post/the-most-important-chart-about-the-patriot-act-you-ll-see/) showing how extensively the Patriot Act has been used in non-Terrorist cases, and how rarely it has been used for Terrorism).
In sum, there is a sprawling apparatus of federal and local militarized police forces and private corporate security designed to send this message: if you participate in protests or other forms of dissent outside of harmless approved channels, you're going to be harmed in numerous ways. As Yves Smith put it (http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/09/welcome-to-the-police-state-nyc-cops-mace-peaceful-protestors-against-wall-street.html) this week:

I’m beginning to wonder whether the right to assemble is effectively dead in the US. No one who is a wage slave (which is the overwhelming majority of the population) can afford to have an arrest record, even a misdemeanor, in this age of short job tenures and rising use of background checks.
This is all designed to deter any meaningful challenges to the government and corporate institutions which are suffocating them, to bully those who consider such challenges into accepting its futility. And it works. In an excellent essay on the Wall Street protests, Dennis Perrin writes (http://dennisperrin.blogspot.com/2011/09/time-never-tells.html):

The dissident children were easily, roughly swept aside. Their hearts are in a good place. Their bodies a minor nuisance. They'll stream back to prove their resolve. And they'll get pepper sprayed and beaten down again. And again.
I admire these kids. They're off their asses. Agitating. Arguing. Providing a living example. There's passion and feeling in their dissent. They're willing to be punished. It's easy to mock them, but how many of you would take their place? . . . .
Yet I have doubts. The class war from above demoralizes as much as it incites. Countless people have surrendered. Faded from view. To demonstrate or occupy corporate turf doesn't seem like a wise option. You'll get beaten and arrested. For what? Making mortgage payments is tough enough.
Given the costs and risks one incurs from participating in protests like this -- to say nothing of the widespread mockery one receives -- it's natural that most of the participants will be young and not yet desperate to cling to institutional stability. It's also natural that this cohort won't be well-versed (or even interested) in the high arts of media messaging and leadership structures. Democratic Party precinct captains, MBA students in management theory and corporate communications, and campaign media strategists aren't the ones who will fuel protests like this; it takes a mindset of passionate dissent and a willingness to remove oneself from the safe confines of institutional respectability.
So, yes, the people willing to engage in protests like these at the start may lack (or reject the need for) media strategies, organizational hierarchies, and messaging theories. But they're among the very few people trying to channel widespread anger into activism rather than resignation, and thus deserve support and encouragement -- and help -- from anyone claiming to be sympathetic to their underlying message. As Perrin put it:

This part of Michigan [where I live] was once militant. From organized labor to student agitation. Now there's nothing. Shop after shop goes under. Strip malls abandoned. Legalized loan shark parlors spread. Dollar stores hang on. Parking lots riots of weeds. Roads in serious disrepair. Those with jobs feel lucky to be employed. Everyone else is on their own. A general resignation prevails. Life limps by.
Personally, I think there's substantial value even in those protests that lack "exit goals" and "messaging strategies" and the rest of the platitudes from Power Point presentations by mid-level functionaries at corporate conferences. Some injustices simply need anger and dissent expressed for its own sake, to make clear that there are citizens who are aware of it and do not accept it.
In Vancouver yesterday, Dick Cheney was met by angry protests chanting "war criminal" at him while he tried to hawk his book, which prompted arrests and an ugly-for-Canada police battle that then became part of the story of his visit (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/09/26/bc-dick-cheney-vancouver-protest.html). Is that likely to result in Cheney's arrest or sway huge numbers of people to change how they think? No. But it's vastly preferable to allowing him to traipse around the world as though he's a respectable figure unaccompanied by anger over his crimes -- anger necessarily expressed outside of the institutions that have failed to check or punish (but rather have shielded and legitimized) those crimes. And the same is true of Wall Street's rampant criminality.
But for those who believe that protests are only worthwhile if they translate into quantifiable impact: the lack of organizational sophistication or messaging efficacy on the part of the Wall Street protest is a reason to support it and get involved in it, not turn one's nose up at it and join in the media demonization. That's what one actually sympathetic to its messaging (rather than pretending to be in order more effectively to discredit it) would do. Anyone who looks at mostly young citizens marching in the street protesting the corruption of Wall Street and the harm it spawns, and decides that what is warranted is mockery and scorn rather than support, is either not seeing things clearly or is motivated by objectives other than the ones being presented.

UPDATE: In the first paragraph , I mistakenly linked to a post (http://jdeanicite.typepad.com/i_cite/2011/09/winner-of-most-condescending-coverage-of-day-of-rage-colin-moynihan-new-york-times.html) discussing a New York Times article by Colin Moynihan as an example of a "condescending" media report about the protest. There was nothing condescending or otherwise worthy of criticism in Moynihan's article; I meant to reference this NYT article by Ginia Bellafante (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/nyregion/protesters-are-gunning-for-wall-street-with-faulty-aim.html?_r=1&hp). My apologies to Moynihan, who rightly objected by email, for the mistake.



More: Glenn Greenwald (http://www.salon.com/author/glenn_greenwald/index.html)

source: http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/09/28/protests?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+salon%2Fgreenwald+%28Glenn+Gr eenwald%29

[Ele'ill]

I'll be attending the first 'General Assembly' tonight in Portland regarding the occupy together (http://www.occupytogether.org/) strategy. I hope to bring a radical voice to the assembly along several others.

http://occupyportland.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/OccupyPortland_poster01sm1.jpg


The 'occupation' is planned for Oct.

[Binh]

My latest piece on OWS:
http://www.zcommunications.org/the-nuts-and-bolts-of-occupywallstreet-by-pham-binh

[coda]

Wish I could sustain my time--- we're doing shifts and it's time for a shower, man.... and some better grub.

anyone else down here?

[infearoffear]

This is exciting stuff, wish I could participate. Or hopefully it'll spread far enough to reach me

[Independent Socialist]

This is an important event. It will not change things overnight, but if the occupants keep up the struggle, something is going to happen. It's already spreading around the country and I think it is serving as a worthwhile companion to the protests elsewhere in the world

[Tabarnack]

Wall Street protesters march on NY police headquarters

http://www.msnbc.msn.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44739237/ns/us_news-life#.ToeA8nJRJvx)

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04P27Tn43n5pQ/610x.jpg

[Bardo]

From Occupy Tampa today:

wzBOetGu2yE

[RedTrackWorker]

I hope revlefters participating are ok. Solidarity to all those arrested at the Brooklyn Bridge today.

[DeBon]

It's a pleasure knowing I'll be in the generation that get's to witness a new revolution...

It's a shame that I live in the far South, Oklahoma to be exact, and the idea of a far left is almost non existent here, and not much will happen here.

Oh well :thumbup1:

[Tabarnack]

United Steelworkers announce support for ‘Occupy Wall Street’ protest



The United Steelworkers, North America’s largest industrial union, announced on Friday that it supported the ongoing “Occupy Wall Street” protest that began in lower Manhattan and has slowly spread to other cities across the United States.

The protesters have pledged to occupy Wall Street until something is done about corporate greed and corporate influence on the U.S. government. They have been camped out in New York’s old Liberty Plaza since September 17.

“The United Steelworkers union stands in solidarity with and strongly supports Occupy Wall Street,” Leo W. Gerard, International President of the United Steelworkers, said in a statement.

“The brave men and women, many of them young people without jobs, who have been demonstrating around-the-clock for nearly two weeks in New York City are speaking out for the many in our world. We are fed up with the corporate greed, corruption and arrogance that have inflicted pain on far too many for far too long.”

United Steelworkers has 850,000 members in the U.S., Canada, and the Caribbean.

The announcement comes after a number of labor unions and liberal groups said hey would throw their weight behind the “Occupy Wall Street” demonstrations. The United Federation of Teachers, 32BJ SEIU, 1199 SEIU, Workers United and Transport Workers Union (TWU) Local 100 have said they will participate in the protest.

The Working Families Party, MoveOn.org, Make the Road New York, the Coalition for the Homeless, the Alliance for Quality Education, Community Voices Heard, United New York and Strong Economy For All also plan to support the demonstration.

TWU Local 100 president John Samuelson appeared on Current TV’s Countdown and explained that his union was making common cause with the “Occupy Wall Street” protesters because they are, “singing the same song and fighting the same battle that our union has fought for the last eighteen months.”

Many have criticized the movement for not having any clear purpose or goals, but Salon.com’s Glenn Greenwald responded that most of those critiques were ludicrous.

“Does anyone really not know what the basic message is of this protest: that Wall Street is oozing corruption and criminality and its unrestrained political power — in the form of crony capitalism and ownership of political institutions — is destroying financial security for everyone else?” he wrote on Wednesday.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/01/united-steelworkers-announce-support-for-occupy-wall-street-protest/

[Fawkes]

So I just got back to my apartment now after spending the last 5 hours at the 75th precinct. I had work today, so I missed the actual Brooklyn Bridge takeover, but here's a summary of what happened based off of my own observations and conversations with others:

- A few thousand people left from "Liberty Plaza" to march across the Bridge to Brooklyn Bridge Park to meet up with another demonstration that was happening there.

- The initial plan was to have people march across the walkway part of the bridge, and while many did, a large number of people (over a thousand) began walking through the Brooklyn-bound highway part of the bridge, completely stopping traffic flow.

- Police were actively encouraging protestors to walk on the road as opposed to the sidewalk, going so far as to direct them that way.

- After the main mass of people took over the highway, police coming from the Brooklyn side halted the march and began arresting people. (I heard one person claim that pepper spray was used against those on the front line, though I haven't been able to confirm this).

- As the police closed in from the Brooklyn side, a fence was set up on the Manhattan side, effectively trapping thousands of people on the bridge.

- Police began closing in on both sides, arresting upwards of a thousand people as they worked their way toward the middle. They even commandeered MTA city buses to transport the unprecedented number of people arrested. Among the people arrested were a number of photojournalists and a New York Times reporter.

- There were numerous reports of people being dragged on the pavement by the police, and even one report of sexual assault against a female demonstrator.

- Some people on the roadway, in an attempt to escape the police, actually tried climbing up onto the central walkway, an incredibly dangerous act given that a single slip could mean falling into the East River and almost certainly dying.

- Police were actively practicing gendered discrimination in their arrests, in what is most likely theorized to have been an attempt at breaking up couples. There were times when all of the women in a given area were told they were free to go while the men were arrested and vice-versa.

- Police began transporting the arrested demonstrators to a number of different precincts in both Brooklyn and Manhattan, the last confirmed number I heard being eight different precincts -- including 80 or so individuals taken to the 75th Precinct in East New York, a neighborhood 40 minutes away from the bridge and notorious for being the most dangerous neighborhood in Brooklyn.

- A large number of people reconvened at Liberty Plaza where a General Assembly was held encircling the media tent so as to prevent any attempts by the police to confiscate equipment. During the GA, it was announced that the S.E.I.U. Hospital Workers Union had officially declared solidarity with the movement and pledged a weeks worth of food for the encampment and the assistance of as many Registered Nurses as feasible to train protestors in medical aid. Additionally, the Transit Workers Union and United Steel Workers also pledged their full support.

- Immediately following the GA, jail support groups were set up for each of the precincts the demonstrators were taken to. In cooperation with the National Lawyers' Guild, demonstrators travelled to each of the precincts to offer legal/moral support and maintain a presence. I was a part of the group that went to the 75th Precinct in East New York where we waited 3 1/2 hours before they slowly began releasing the demonstrators, the majority of whom received citations for obstruction of traffic and were given mandatory court dates.

- The protestors that were taken to the 75th Precinct repeatedly asked the officers at the station if they could use the bathrooms, but these requests were consistently denied until the initial procedures were through and people were moved to holding cells. At least one woman actually peed her pants as a result of this. Further, upon release, I saw at least one demonstrator having NLG reps take pictures of her wrists which had blood-red lines from ziptie handcuffs. It should be noted, however, that once these initial procedures were through, the majority of those detained at the 75th Precinct described uncharacteristically nice treatment by the police.



This seems like it's really going beyond the lame liberal fest we all predicted it would be. With the support of some pretty major unions and the relatively massive turnout, this thing really has potential. This is not just a rich suburban white kid's protest. There were people of all skin colors, ages (mid-teens to 60s), and genders (everyone from bearded, muscle-shirt-wearing guys to trans people). Yes, it still lacks the necessary class-consciousness and the majority of people still seem to hold the "police are part of the '99%' too" view, but it is definitely moving in a good direction. For example, when I was in East New York (one of the most impoverished and violent neighborhoods in the whole city), all of the people in the police station (literally all of them) waiting for friends/relatives arrested for non-protest-related crimes expressed vocal support for what was going on. I actually got butterflies hearing such solidarity from members of one of the most oppressed communities in the city. Also, when I went to the bodega down the street to get something to drink, I started talking with two teenagers who had just left the precinct with their mom who then proceeded to show me the bruises on one of their arms and neck from the police. I don't think I'm being overly optimistic by saying that this shit's got some real potential.

This Wednesday, there is a planned walkout of all CUNY/SUNY schools to protest the tuition hikes which will merge with a labor march downtown with support from Occupy Wall Street. Similarly, many of the protestors on the bridge today had come directly from the SlutWalk march.

[Fawkes]

Oh, if anyone feels like merging this with another thread, feel free to do so.


Also, expect to see lots of footage from the Bridge, there were literally hundreds of video cameras recording from both the road itself and the walkway.

[RHIZOMES]

Posted in another thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2249042&postcount=38) on the Occupy Wall Street movement, but I figured it'd be good to post it here too just because of how passionately I feel about it, this is an important issue that needs to be discussed.


te understanding this description of the Occupy Wall Street campaign as being 'left-liberal' or as lacking in 'class-consciousness'. I wasn't aware 'left-liberals' were into challenging bourgeois laws via occupation of private property, or that direct action against Wall Street was lacking in 'class-consciousness'. Some of you may have noticed how capitalism has become increasingly financialised in the last 40 years, meaning Wall Street is one of the most potent symbols of the corrupt U.S. political-economic system.

I think what is actually occurring with these sort of critiques is the fact that some leftists can't see these sort of organic social movements outside their own ideological paradigms. So when Revleftists say 'left-liberal', they really mean they don't like how the 'Occupy Wall Street' organisers have (correctly) stripped down the message to the bare minimum (against Wall Street) to motivate the masses who are otherwise uneducated in radical politics, to partake in some direct action. If the protest propaganda had been all about the intricacies of Marxist crisis theory, it would have appeared (justly or unjustly) as largely fringe and niche. By refining the message of the protest, it has been able to unify numerous social and political identities that have become increasingly fragmented by capitalism, under one 'banner' against a common enemy. This may include left-liberals, but so what?

Such a critique is fundamentally idealist rather than materialist, as it construes the ideas the protesters have (as if they can be so easily reduced) as being somehow more important their actions. It reflects a growing feeling of impotence among the traditional left, who have dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's when it comes to some unifying radical critique of capitalism, yet they haven't been able to unify the masses in any sort of meaningful opposition.

The movement isn't ideologically pristine, but no mass movement is. If we wait for such an organic event to occur, where everyone is waving Little Red Books and singing the Internationale, global anti-capitalist revolution will never happen.

What we as radical leftists should be doing is taking a prominent role in this movement, rather than whining that we don't agree with the entire scope of its social-ideological make-up. The Anti-War and Civil Rights movements of the 1960's didn't consist of only Marxists, and there were far more groups in opposition to the Czar than simply the Bolsheviks.

[brigadista]

good luck to all US comrades

[heyjoe]

carpe diem

[Kadir Ateş]

http://occupyportland.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/OccupyPortland_poster01sm1.jpg


What kind of idea of a community are the OWS crew evoking when you say "We are the 99%"?

[Sasha]

What kind of idea of a community are the OWS crew evoking when you say "We are the 99%"?


the proletariat and the middle class vs the rich. one could say its not far at all removed from the neo-marxist concepts of the multitude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multitude) vs empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_%28book%29)

[TheGodlessUtopian]

It's a pleasure knowing I'll be in the generation that get's to witness a new revolution...

Maybe its just because I am cynical but I am not anywhere near that hopeful.

[Sasha]

Saturday at the Wall Street Protests (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/10/02/saturday-at-the-wall-street-protests)

Posted by Andy Haynes (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/andy-haynes/Author?oid=10136330) on Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 6:00 AM

http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2011/10/01/1317524560-wethepeople3.jpg

Andy Haynes
Hundreds of people were arrested.


What seemed to be a very promising day at the Occupy Wall Street (https://occupywallst.org/) protests ultimately did not turn out that way. It all began, for me, at around 3 p.m., when I arrived back (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/10/01/friday-at-the-wall-street-protests) down at protester village right as the Saturday afternoon General Assembly was finishing up (thank god/sorry). Organizers were announcing the march plans, and telling people what to do if anyone was arrested. I kind of resigned myself to ending the day in cuffs. Internal monologue: At least this time I won't be drunk, DAD!
Unlike other days, Zuccotti Park was packed to the brim. The crowd was well into the thousands, and was the most diverse yet. The stinky hippie thing I’ve hyperbolized—that was not what Saturday’s crowd was about. It was young and old, all colors of the rainbow, seemingly anyone not wealthy enough to be threatened by the occupation’s goals. (And some hippies too.)
http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2011/10/01/thumb-1317523235-rangel.jpg (http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2011/10/01/1317523235-rangel.jpg)

Andy Haynes
New York Rep. Charles Rangel, minus the monacle.


Randomly, right before the march started New York Congressman Charles Rangel tried to speak to the crowds—but was quickly booed off the stage for looking like the black version of the Monopoly guy, minus a monocle and top hat. I mean, click on that photo and look at the outfit Rangel wore to the protest. He should’ve had a brandy snifter and cigar, too. (But shouldn’t we all?) As he retreated, the crowd teased him and a redheaded man tried to rush him, yelling something I couldn’t hear. But I’m sure it had something to do with being a ginger.
I was jealous of Rangel. I’ve never had that many people laughing at me. Maybe he should get into stand-up.
The crowd then began to walk north up the sidewalk on Broadway, which was lined by hundreds of cops. At about three blocks in, the march went east. I still can’t say whether the cops made them turn, or whether the marchers turned on their own, but in any case soon we were headed for the Brooklyn Bridge. I thought: This kinda seems like a stupid idea, a great way to be forced into a small space and then arrested. Oooohhhh, FORESHADOWING....
Minutes later we were funneling onto the Brooklyn Bridge and people were acting triumphant. I even felt a little swell of emotions as the crowd began to chant "Whose bridge? Our bridge!” Later on the cops would show us whose bridge: the New York City Department of Transportation's bridge. TOO MUCH FORESHADOWING...
http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2011/10/01/thumb-1317523366-get_real.jpg (http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2011/10/01/1317523366-get_real.jpg)

Andy Haynes
Raging grannies: not the fastest marchers.


Anyway, I was on the bridge's walkway, with a majority of the marchers, but soon a group broke off and took to the eastbound roadway, LED BY THE POLICE. That’s important. The marchers on the roadway were moving much faster than us on the walkway, because we on the walkway were being led by one of those “Granny-Something” groups, which is not a good idea, because grannies are slow. Sorry Grannies, I love you, but let's be real.
As we marched and chanted, the crowd on the roadway came to a stop—because the cops stopped them. Soon more cops showed up and cut these marchers off from behind. The orange netting came out and the cops began to arrest the protestors on the roadway, wrestling them away one by one. Those of us on the walkway cheered for all of them, and each of them yelled their name, in case they were disappeared (as if we were in Nicaragua).
http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2011/10/01/thumb-1317523511-tricked.jpg (http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2011/10/01/1317523511-tricked.jpg)

Andy Haynes
Tricked by the cops.


Anyways, the cops basically tricked a couple hundred protestors onto the bridge, and then arrested them. The last thing I saw was the police backing city buses onto the bridge to take the protestors to... Nicaragua???
This basically ruined the march, because we stopped marching and instead started watching people get arrested. Nice move, cops! Good thing you make all that Wall Street money! Oh wait, you don’t? Why the fuck are you not on the side of the protest? Nevermind, I know the answer: Lizard people control the world.
We walked in a diminished crowd over the Brooklyn Bridge to a park on the other side, where a couple hundred people were rallying again. One of the grannies was lying on cardboard on the side of the group. I thought she was dead. She was napping.
I couldn’t feign excitement for the severely smaller group that made it to Brooklyn (and hey, I know I'm not in charge, but I'd just like to say the other side of the Brooklyn Bridge is a long way from Wall Street). So I headed back to the village. People were dancing, it began to rain, they continued to dance, and I headed home. This protesting thing, even when you're just observing it, is exhausting.
http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2011/10/01/thumb-1317523700-glasses.jpg (http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2011/10/01/1317523700-glasses.jpg)

Andy Haynes
This may look like the WTO, but it's not.


On the way home, I thought about a question someone in Seattle had asked me: How does the Occupy Wall Street effort compare to the WTO protests of 1999?
They're different animals, obviously. But as far as I remember—and, I think, romanticize it, because I was seventeen at the time and just dying to throw things at cops—but as far as I remember, the WTO really shut down the city of Seattle.
Occupy Wall Street has taken over one block. One park, really. And on Saturday, it managed to march a few thousand people about a half a mile before hundreds of those people were arrested and the rest of the march became a leisure walk.
I think the WTO was true protest, true civil disobedience, all out chaos at certain points, and because of that it garnered a lot more attention. The cover of Newsweek, for instance. I don't know for sure, but I think there was also a lot more organization behind what happened in Seattle in 1999. I remember a couple hundred anarchists coming to my mom's house before the WTO protests so that my sister and other organizers could teach them resistance—and build those arm guards so cops couldn't take them away. I don't think Occupy Wall Street has grown out of the same kind of organization, resources, or advance planning. I also don't think it's affecting Wall Street, or New York, to the point where it's forcing everyone to get involved in some manner or another.
Too bad, because Occupy Wall Street is fighting something just as big and complicated and well-defended as the WTO.
http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2011/10/01/1317523785-saturday.jpg

Andy Haynes


http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2011/10/01/1317523856-saturday2.jpg

Andy Haynes


http://www.thestranger.com/images/blogimages/2011/10/01/1317523895-saturday3.jpg

Andy Haynes




that last paragraph is where we should come in... radical activists should have been on the ground from day one, trying to get the masses to step beyond protesting into full mass civil-disobedience and ultimately confrontation, hopefully this can still happen but then we need to get of our arses instead of slagging this movement on the internet.

[Sasha]

Violence Is the Answer (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/10/02/violence-is-the-answer)

Posted by Goldy (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/goldy/Author?oid=4904583) on Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 4:20 PM

Hey Occupy Wallstreet... in case you're wondering what it will take to get the media to give you and your protests the coverage you fucking deserve, the short answer is: Violence. That's what the media, through their relative silence, is demanding. Either present at least the credible threat of physical violence, or they're turning their cameras elsewhere.
By comparison, the teabaggers threaten violence. That's what gets them so much coverage. You think their open carry bullshit isn't calculated to intimidate? You think their angry disruption of congressional town hall meetings wasn't all part of a carefully coordinated media/political strategy? You think the Gabrielle Giffords shooting didn't make them even more of force to be reckoned with? The entire vocabulary of the Tea Party movement is based on little but rhetorical violence. Hell, even the name of the organization pays tribute to an act of political violence. That's not an accident.
Yet when was the last time an organized protest from the American left made the powers that be nervous enough to garner wide and sustained media attention? WTO, that's when. "The Battle in Seattle." I've heard local labor organizers lament about how those "fucking anarchists" highjacked the demonstrations, causing the message to be lost in senseless acts of property damage and the incompetent and irresponsibly violent police response that followed. But the irony is, as impressively massive, well-planned, and peaceful as the WTO protests initially were, they would have garnered relatively little media attention, and would have long since been forgotten, had it not been for the violence, both private and official, that eventually ensued.
The point is, allowing yourselves to be calmly herded onto bridges and arrested, or penned defenselessly behind mesh fences where you can be casually maced... that's simply not a good enough story. Nobody fears a peaceful protest. And while demonstrators may think they're following in the successful civil disobedience footsteps of Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr., history tells us that it was state sponsored/sanctioned violence against the people, such as the Jallianwala Bagh massacre or the many brutal murders and attacks in the apartheid South, that ultimately sparked the public sympathy that led to reform. So unless you can at least provoke the police toward bloodshed—unless some of you actually martyr your bodies (or like Gandhi and MLK, your lives) to the cause—peaceful non-compliance will get you nowhere.
At least, with the media. Remember, the press doesn't view you as victims. You're disrupting the daily routines of everyday life. That makes you a nuisance. Furthermore, the corporate media journalists you're asking for coverage owe their very livelihood to some of the very same corporations and financiers you're protesting, so, um, good luck with that. But give them a little violence, well, that's a visual the media can't resist.
To be clear, I'm not advocating violence. I don't actually want to see anybody get hurt. But if your goal is to get the nation to pay attention to you and your message, well, you know, violence works. Because if experience has taught us anything, it's that the threat of violence is the only thing our media and political establishment appear to take seriously.




because of my intrest in US politics i have been following some ultimately liberal leftists blogs and its pretty cool that over the last year or so i have seen more and more of these kinds of posts ^ are we radicalizing dear liberal lefties? :D

[Tabarnack]

The revolution starts now...

gks09FkTx00



The revolution starts now
Steve Earle

I was walkin’ down the street
In the town where I was born
I was movin’ to a beat
That I’d never felt before
So I opened up my eyes
And I took a look around
I saw it written ‘cross the sky
The revolution starts now
Yeah, the revolution starts now

The revolution starts now
When you rise above your fear
And tear the walls around you down
The revolution starts here
Where you work and where you play
Where you lay your money down
What you do and what you say
The revolution starts now
Yeah the revolution starts now

Yeah the revolution starts now
In your own backyard
In your own hometown
So what you doin’ standin’ around?
Just follow your heart
The revolution starts now

Last night I had a dream
That the world had turned around
And all our hopes had come to be
And the people gathered ‘round
They all brought what they could bring
And nobody went without
And I learned a song to sing
The revolution starts now

[Kadir Ateş]

The middle class and "rich" are the bourgeoisie. They are class enemies. Why ally with them?

[xub3rn00dlex]

The middle class and "rich" are the bourgeoisie. They are class enemies. Why ally with them?

Wealth has nothing to do with the means of production. My family is middle class by definition, yet we're all proletarian as fuck.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Wealth has nothing to do with the means of production. My family is middle class by definition, yet we're all proletarian as fuck.

Class does. Were your parents professionals or small business owners? If so, they were petit-bourgeois.

If not, they were, as you said, "proletarian as fuck".

[Die Rote Fahne]

The middle class and "rich" are the bourgeoisie. They are class enemies. Why ally with them?

The "middle class" is a term used a few times to describe the petit-bourgeois.

It's use by capitalists today is in reference to higher earning proletarians. The intent is to make them feel separate from the poor/lower earners.

[xub3rn00dlex]

The "middle class" is a term used a few times to describe the petit-bourgeois.

It's use by capitalists today is in reference to higher earning proletarians. The intent is to make them feel separate from the poor/lower earners.

This is the definition I was referring to. My parents both work for an hourly wage, dad in construction, mom in a supermarket deli. I work in the same firm as construction as well. So yeah. Just because we are "higher earning" does not make us the enemies lol.

[Die Rote Fahne]

This is the definition I was referring to. My parents both work for an hourly wage, dad in construction, mom in a supermarket deli. I work in the same firm as construction as well. So yeah. Just because we are "higher earning" does not make us the enemies lol.

You got it.