Note to Christians: God is self-refuting!

[Mythbuster]

God is self-refuting with his character. Is he agape, or is he not?

JP7SPJllNoc

[Mythbuster]

(Post removed)

[Broletariat]

I cannot understand the topic title because it contains the meaningless word "god."



I miss Rosa

[Dumb]

This is implicit in your heading for this thread, but the video is more a takedown of Christianity (or at least scriptural literalism) than it is a refutation of the existence of God. What sense would it make to make the same argument to a Reform Jew, whose religion places no stock in scriptural literalism and whose scripture does not include Paul's definition of love?

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

This is implicit in your heading for this thread, but the video is more a takedown of Christianity (or at least scriptural literalism) than it is a refutation of the existence of God. What sense would it make to make the same argument to a Reform Jew, whose religion places no stock in scriptural literalism and whose scripture does not include Paul's definition of love?

Agreed, I would also pose a similar question replacing reform Judaism with Islam. Critiques that rely heavily on scriptural literalism and Christian theology (generally speaking and it seems pretty selective in some cricumstances) both bore and annoy me.

[Dumb]

Agreed, I would also pose a similar question replacing reform Judaism with Islam. Critiques that rely heavily on scriptural literalism and Christian theology (generally speaking and it seems pretty selective in some cricumstances) both bore and annoy me.

Agreed on most points. I asked regarding Reform Judaism simply because that happens to be my own religion. Better yet, try Buddhism!

However, I have to admit that as a critique of Biblical inerrancy, I do enjoy the "Love is not jealous"/"God is love"/"I am a jealous god" argument.

[Mythbuster]

Agreed on most points. I asked regarding Reform Judaism simply because that happens to be my own religion. Better yet, try Buddhism!

However, I have to admit that as a critique of Biblical inerrancy, I do enjoy the "Love is not jealous"/"God is love"/"I am a jealous god" argument.

as for reformed Judaism (also Islam) consider the following:


1. If God exists, then he is an all-just judge.
2. If God exists, then he is an all-merciful judge.
3. An all-just judge treats every offender with exactly the severity that he/she deserves.
4. An all-merciful judge treats every offender with less severity than he/she deserves.
5. It is impossible to treat an offender both with exactly the severity that he/she deserves and also with less severity than he/she deserves.
6. Hence, it is impossible for an all-just judge to be an all-merciful judge (from 3-5).
7. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 6).

Just look at the contradictions in the Old Testament.

[Dumb]

as for reformed Judaism (also Islam) consider the following:


1. If God exists, then he is an all-just judge.
2. If God exists, then he is an all-merciful judge.
3. An all-just judge treats every offender with exactly the severity that he/she deserves.
4. An all-merciful judge treats every offender with less severity than he/she deserves.
5. It is impossible to treat an offender both with exactly the severity that he/she deserves and also with less severity than he/she deserves.
6. Hence, it is impossible for an all-just judge to be an all-merciful judge (from 3-5).
7. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 6).

Just look at the contradictions in the Old Testament.

That argument presupposes that God is a judge, particularly one with the power to cast some punishment upon the judged. I do not know of any Jew - not even amongst the Haredim - who believes in a hell, and I do not attach a supernatural cause to hardship in the real, material world (e.g. none of this "Your kid died because you lied!" crap).

To be honest, God and the worship thereof are not very important at all to the way that I practice Judaism. It's more about the holidays, the ethics, and argumentation. As is the norm amongst Reform Jews, I don't believe in an individual Messiah, but rather in a collective, generational "messiah" - in my individual reading, the working class organized for self-emancipation.

You point out that the Hebrew scripture has contradictions. Well, yeah. Are you familiar with the E and J documents? Long story short: for several centuries, there wasn't one Hebrew scripture, but two; this is why one often finds repeated stories in the Hebrew scripture, with one referring to God as "Elohim" (hence "E document") and the other referring to God as YHWH (aka Jehovah, hence "J document"). Books were edited, shortened, lengthened and combined as deemed necessary, and two separate canons were eventually joined together wholecloth without any concern that they might say different things. Notions of canonical rigidity and harmony are later Christian innovations.

Judaism, however, has never relied upon the Christian notion of scriptural harmony. Just look at the Talmud, another "sacred" text, to illustrate this point: texts routinely depict arguments between various rabbis, with no opinion becoming authoritative. There's a reason for the old joke, "Two Jews, three opinions."

TL;DR: Your concept of religion is shaped by your experiences with modern Christianity, and therefore your argument against religion is of limited applicability outside of modern Christianity. I would be no less Jewish if I were an atheist (and indeed, I've known several observant Jews who were atheists).

[ZeroNowhere]

I cannot understand the topic title because it contains the meaningless word "god."



I miss Rosa
Yes. Earlier you looked like part of a greater movement, now you just look lazy.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Agreed on most points. I asked regarding Reform Judaism simply because that happens to be my own religion.

Yeah, I saw some of your other posts in this subforum and saw that.

I pointed out Islam because that's where I'm coming from.



Better yet, try Buddhism!


I might be misunderstanding you but it would seem as far as this thread is concerned this might be problematic given the Buddhist position on God and other such things related to that faith.


However, I have to admit that as a critique of Biblical inerrancy, I do enjoy the "Love is not jealous"/"God is love"/"I am a jealous god" argument.

Very much agreed, the debate over the nature and existance (or nonexistence of God) is so very taxing as a Theist considering how things are so commonly framed by both parties.

I will comment on the other shit tomorrow when I'm more soberish.

[Dumb]

I might be misunderstanding you but it would seem as far as this thread is concerned this might be problematic given the Buddhist position on God and other such things related to that faith.

That's actually what I'm getting at. The debate on religion in "The West" is so Christian-centric that one often sees atheists conflating religion and theism; in the case of Buddhism, that does not hold at all.