4 welsh miners trapped underground, one found dead

[scarletghoul]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2011/sep/16/trapped-welsh-miners-rescue-operation-live?CMP=NECNETTXT8187 this page has good coverage

this is really upsetting, why does the welsh working class seem to suffer so much ? i didnt even know there was still coal mines in the uk ..

[Tommy4ever]

I've seen that two of them are already confirmed dead. :(

This must be the worst mining disaster in Britain for many, many years.

[Rufio]

Three now confirmed dead. Grim. :(

There are a tiny number of mines still going in Britain, I swear it's like four or five.

[El Louton]

Mining has scarred the working class and made the ruling class even richer! Sad day for Wales and the rest of the country. Nationalise the mines!

[Smyg]

Lovely. I'm having déjà vu from the 19th century...

[bricolage]

i didnt even know there was still coal mines in the uk ..
I doubt there's more than 10 still around, probably less.

[RedAnarchist]

Sadly, they've found the fourth and last man dead.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14955526

[Desperado]

I doubt there's more than 10 still around, probably less.

Nah, there's still some deep pits in the Midlands quite a few minor ones like this one and opencasts about the place.

[SHORAS]

Mining has scarred the working class and made the ruling class even richer! Sad day for Wales and the rest of the country. Nationalise the mines!

Wales is a country in and of itself. It is not a state or region in England.

[SHORAS]

I doubt there's more than 10 still around, probably less.

There's gold mines near me (in Wales) :D

[RedAnarchist]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-15352222

According to the BBC, a man has been arrested over the mine collapse, on suspicion of gross negligence manslaughter. This may well have been no accident, but rather some greedy arsehole putting profit before the miners.

[Comrade Gwydion]

So, obviously, when we need to make people see how bad China is, we show news reports on dead miners in China. When the same thing happens right here, the news remains silent.

(In the Netherlands, anyway)

[GatesofLenin]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-15352222

According to the BBC, a man has been arrested over the mine collapse, on suspicion of gross negligence manslaughter. This may well have been no accident, but rather some greedy arsehole putting profit before the miners.

Sadly, that is at the heart of capitalism.

[Invader Zim]

Wales is a country in and of itself. It is not a state or region in England.


Wales is not either politically, socially, culturally or economically capable of sustaining itself, and while it is seperate from England in name, and has a degree of autonomy in the Assembly, it is not an independent soverign state; and contrary to the shrill whining of the nationalists, nor is it capable of independence.

[pastradamus]

Wales is not either politically, socially, culturally or economically capable of sustaining itself, and while it is seperate from England in name, and has a degree of autonomy in the Assembly, it is not an independent soverign state; and contrary to the shrill whining of the nationalists, nor is it capable of independence.

I don't think you can make that call as it has not existed as a separate entity for hundreds of years.

[Invader Zim]

I don't think you can make that call as it has not existed as a separate entity for hundreds of years.

It has never existed as a single seperate entity.

And of course I can say that it won't sustain itself as an indpendent entity, because I can count. Wales recieves more subsudy from the national purse than it contributes - by about 25%... because it is not sustainable as a single independent body and never has been.

[Magdalen]

It has never existed as a single seperate entity.

And of course I can say that it won't sustain itself as an indpendent entity, because I can count. Wales recieves more subsudy from the national purse than it contributes - by about 25%... because it is not sustainable as a single independent body and never has been.

Perhaps it could be argued that the relative impoverishment of Wales is the result of the policies of the British state, rather than mere happenstance? When Welsh coal was driving the furnaces of the British Empire, only a proportionally smaller amount of that wealth ever made it back there.

While the study mentioned in this article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/aug/02/independent-wales-richer-plaid-cymru) clearly wasn't carried out from a socialist perspective, it's still fruit for thought.

[Invader Zim]

Perhaps it could be argued that the relative impoverishment of Wales is the result of the policies of the British state,

Which is, and has, been dominated by the Welsh ruling class for many hundreds of years.


When Welsh coal was driving the furnaces of the British Empire, only a proportionally smaller amount of that wealth ever made it back there.

And when the cotton was Britain's major industry, how much of the wealth do you think went back to plantation workers or the children mangled by the machinary they were operating? You are making the error typical of nationalists which is to mistakenly present these kinds of issues as national issues as opposed to a class issues.

The fact is the coal industry made many Welsh land owners and industrialists extremely wealthy, but to suggest that this implies that Welsh workers, who did the leg work to actually produce this income, saw any reasonable portion of it is laughable - and the exact same observation can be made of any industrial area in England.




While the study mentioned in this article (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/aug/02/independent-wales-richer-plaid-cymru) clearly wasn't carried out from a socialist perspective, it's still fruit for thought.

No, its isn't. The argument presented is not a materially grounded one, but an obvious logical fallacy. Basically, the argument boils down saying that because other small countries have been economically successful, then so too would Wales. That is an obvious non-sequitur. Had Wales any actually natural resources that could sustain this mythical growth, that would be one thing, but Wales doesn't. Its industrial heritage is just that, heritage. The silver/lead and coal mines are relics of little practical value in an age when these materials can be extracted with greater ease, less expense and higher quality elsewhere. Furthermore, in the case of coal, it too is a relic of a bygone era. It lacks the efficency and green credencials to be of value; in 1911 maybe, but not in 2011. Even if Thatcher hadn't gutted the mines in the 80s, prematurely bringing an end to Welsh coal mining, sooner or later the industry would have declined, as indeed it had been for a number of decades anyway. In short Wales is fucked, and my guess is that if they thought they could get away with it the Tories, etc. would jettison it as soon as they could.

[Desperado]

According to the BBC, a man has been arrested over the mine collapse, on suspicion of gross negligence manslaughter. This may well have been no accident, but rather some greedy arsehole putting profit before the miners.

It's not that simple. The man is petit-bourgeois - he worked in the mines as a miner himself. They also passed a safety check this year. Having said that, the local rumours I've heard from the miners relatives is that they sometimes worked in waist high water, which shouldn't have been protocol.

But to say he's greedy when he was working there himself, and when all small mines are under immense competitive pressure to break even (let alone profits) isn't fair.

[Desperado]

Wales is not either politically, socially, culturally or economically capable of sustaining itself, and while it is seperate from England in name, and has a degree of autonomy in the Assembly, it is not an independent soverign state; and contrary to the shrill whining of the nationalists, nor is it capable of independence.

a) Being a country has nothing to do with self-sustainability, unless you subscribe to some fascist concepts of autarky. Nor does it have anything to do with having a state.

b) If you are actually debating independence within a capitalist framework (which is either reactionary or irrelevant), you seem to have some amazing preconceptions. Wales has few resources cheaper than Asia or Africa can provide, yes, but neither does the city of London, nor much of Europe.

[Invader Zim]

a) Being a country has nothing to do with self-sustainability [...] [n]or does it have anything to do with having a state.

Of course it does. If a country cannot sustain itself, politically, socially, culturally or economically then, for all practical purposes, it is not a country; save, of course, in the minds of nationalists who cling to a meaningless anachronism to provide a tool with which to identify themselves. In fact why, I wonder, do they stop there? Why not define themselves, equally arbitrarily by the older kingdoms that long predate what we now thing of as Wales? Where are the proud nationals of Gwynedd or Deheubarth? That's right, they don't exist because its an irrelevent anachronism that doesn't exist anymore.


unless you subscribe to some fascist concepts of autarky.

Well, it seems that you are the nationalist here so I guess you are a lot more familiar with fascism than I am.


If you are actually debating independence within a capitalist framework [...] you seem to have some amazing preconceptions. Wales has few resources cheaper than Asia or Africa can provide, yes, but neither does the city of London, nor much of Europe.

A moot point, because Wales isn't the city of London, or any other part of Europe, with the infastructure and commodities that allow them to sustain themselves. London, given that it is the example you provided, is one of the largest communication and buisness centres on earth which allows it to sustain itself, a historical legacy from when Britain did have natural and industrial resources at its disposal. What has Wales to compare? Cardiff? Ha! The less said about that pipe-dream the better.


(which is either reactionary or irrelevant)

Oh, I agree. However, you seem to be under the erronious, and equally reactionary and redundant, point of view that there is room for an independent Wales in a post capitalist society. There isn't, just as there is no room for any independent state. Statehood, like class, is an ultra-reactionary abboration of a social construct that serves only to divide humanity to the cost of the vast majority of people.

[RedAnarchist]

It's not that simple. The man is petit-bourgeois - he worked in the mines as a miner himself. They also passed a safety check this year. Having said that, the local rumours I've heard from the miners relatives is that they sometimes worked in waist high water, which shouldn't have been protocol.

But to say he's greedy when he was working there himself, and when all small mines are under immense competitive pressure to break even (let alone profits) isn't fair.

That's true, I hadn't known that before you mentioned it.

[Desperado]

Of course it does. If a country cannot sustain itself, politically, socially, culturally or economically then, for all practical purposes, it is not a country; save, of course, in the minds of nationalists who cling to a meaningless anachronism to provide a tool with which to identify themselves.

Most people associate countries with culture, not political or economic units. Or is the EU a country? Is the UK economically independent, or "self sustaining"? Of course not. You're defining countries with bourgeoisie terms for nation-states, which even for them is increasingly irrelevant with the advent of globalisation.


In fact why, I wonder, do they stop there? Why not define themselves, equally arbitrarily by the older kingdoms that long predate what we now thing of as Wales? Where are the proud nationals of Gwynedd or Deheubarth? That's right, they don't exist because its an irrelevent anachronism that doesn't exist anymore.My culture is not irrelevant, even if I want it to be. The way I think and am is influenced by my heritage, my language, my shared community.


Well, it seems that you are the nationalist here so I guess you are a lot more familiar with fascism than I am.Nice trolling. As leftists we (should) know that fascism is first and foremost about uncompromising class rule.


A moot point, because Wales isn't the city of London, or any other part of Europe, with the infastructure and commodities that allow them to sustain themselves. London, given that it is the example you provided, is one of the largest communication and buisness centres on earth which allows it to sustain itself, a historical legacy from when Britain did have natural and industrial resources at its disposal. What has Wales to compare? Cardiff? Ha! The less said about that pipe-dream the better.Your point was that countries need resources in order to be economically independent, whereas plenty of micro-nation states exist otherwise. You've now changed your tune.


Oh, I agree. However, you seem to be under the erronious, and equally reactionary and redundant, point of view that there is room for an independent Wales in a post capitalist society.Do I? Comrade, you seem to be imagining things again.


There isn't, just as there is no room for any independent state. Statehood, like class, is an ultra-reactionary abboration of a social construct that serves only to divide humanity to the cost of the vast majority of people.Again, a confusion of statehood with country. Another straw man.

[Desperado]

That's true, I hadn't known that before you mentioned it.

Nah, it was my first reaction as well. But whatever the owner's situation, it is pretty undeniably a case of capital against workers, even if it's not that of a capitalist.

[dodger]

Winston churchill’s instructions to police about the tonypandy striking miners ….’DRIVE THE RATS BACK DOWN THEIR HOLES’1911. and in 2011 after the LONDON RIOTS ....BORIS JOHNSON(London Mayor) ‘THEY MAY HAVE GONE TO THEIR EARTHS BUT THE HOUNDS ARE PERSUING THEM DOWN’
Is it evidence of a subtle change in the ruling class mindset?

Not on your bleeding Nelly...................