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Q
16th September 2011, 06:50
I thought I'd post this (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004536) here, as recently there have been some enraged (ex-)SWP'ers that didn't like the commentary about the programme-less SWP resulting in "enraged liberalism". While the audio (http://cpgb.podbean.com/2011/08/23/cu-2011-the-cpgb-draft-programme/) and video (http://vimeo.com/28979492) file have been up for some time now, I guess some prefer to read instead.


A hypothesis to change the world
Mike Macnair explains the thinking behind the new version of the CPGB's Draft programme

Firstly, I am going to discuss the relationship of programme to the question of party. Secondly, I will look at programmes in general, including the history of workers’ party programmes, so as to place our own partyist project in that context. I am not going to discuss in detail the content of the new version of the CPGB Draft programme, or the changes we have incorporated.

There is a historical dialectic relating to the question of programme and party. However, the history does not play out exactly in the form of the dialectical logic. The underlying contradiction in the society is one between the interests of capital and the interests of the working class. That contradiction is reflected not necessarily in the class-consciousness of the working class, but in active management by capital to keep the working class under control.

This question constantly enters into the political economic decision-making of capital - the class war is not something which the working class invents. The capitalists wage war on the working class all the time by constantly managing them. In turn the existence of organisations of the working class is a reactive response to that war.

Organisation

There are four levels of this dialectic of class struggle. The first level concerns the workers’ immediate organisations: strike committees, tiny workplace formations to defend workers’ interests. The first phase of trade unions has usually taken the form of organisation in a single plant, a single locality - these are useful organisations for conducting an individual struggle or strike. It may extend beyond that, becoming a wave of strikes, for example, and the highest form of this sort of organisation are soviets or workers’ councils. But this is still an elementary form of organisation for conducting a single struggle.

Such a form runs up against a limit, which is imposed by the class struggle. At the end of the day the workers have to go back to work - you cannot stay out on strike forever. The capitalist class is organised both on a national and on an international level and this exposes the limits of the workers’ immediate forms of struggle. As a result, organisational forms evolve to the second level: that is, unions equipped for prolonged struggle, operating on at least a national scale - the American trade unions originated as international organisations, which attempted to organise north and south of the US-Canada border.

In creating a union an attempt is being made to overcome the limitation of the immediate organisation of the working class by creating something more permanent. This allows strike funds to be built up from small contributions, specialist negotiators and lawyers to be employed, national trade union newspapers to be produced, through which struggles can be linked and strikes conducted on a national scale. Ideally we would want to see trade union organisation and strikes on an international scale. The fact that we do not is partly a matter of the active intervention of capital to control trade unionism, but trade unions also come up against an internal limit.

The limit which is posed by the class struggle in relation to a trade union is that, in order for it to function as a union, it cannot be a party. If it turns itself into a political party it ceases to function as a union. Trade unions have to include Tory workers, even though there may not be very many of them. They have to include all workers in the trade or industry, even if they have pro-bourgeois politics.

The gist of economism is the claim that the trade union struggle comes up against the capitalist state and therefore the workers are radicalised and understand the class nature of that state. So if we launch people into struggle, they will, through this understanding, become revolutionaries and seek the overthrow of the state. However, it does not actually work like this. In reality, when the trade union comes up against the state, the consequence is that workers seek a political organisation to represent the interests of the working class as a pressure group within the state order - the third level.

In Britain the trade union leaders broke from the First International and went into the Liberal Party in order to win the legalisation of their organisations. The next step was that the Tory Party, in the form of the judiciary, struck back through an interpretation of the act passed by the Liberals which rendered it completely ineffective.

The working class, therefore, objectively seeks independent political representation within the capitalist order. In a sense there is already an objective dynamic toward working class political representation as a pressure group within the capitalist order in the form of Lib-Labism - of the relationship between the trade union leadership and the Liberal Party (or the relationship between the trade union leadership and the Democratic Party in the United States).

This is a deformed form of political representation of the working class within the capitalist order, but it can, and very commonly does, take the form of the creation of a ‘labour party’. I place the phrase in quote marks, because there are ambiguities and contradictions in the actual history of the British Labour Party: it is a party set up to represent labour, but is actually a pressure group within capitalist society.

It can perfectly well be the case that such a party devolves into something else. Take the German Social Democratic Party. It started out as a party through which the working class tried to express its own interests, up to and including taking over the state and replacing capitalism, and mutated into something like the Labour Party over the course of time. In the same way some communist parties have moved into the political space of either the US Democratic Party (Italy) or the Labour Party (France). The Lanka Sama Samaja party - Trotskyist at its foundation - was transformed over the course of the 1950s into a Labourite party.

The formation of a broad party of labour, which aims to represent the interests of workers within the framework of capitalism, arises from the objective logic of the class struggle, aiming to overcome the limits of trade unions.

The fourth level then arises logically when the working class thinks about its independent political interests - that is to say, its interests over and above the problem of struggling against the class war waged by the bourgeoisie. The idea that the working class should take over and remake the society in a way which corresponds to its own interests.

Logically this is the final stage, because it follows from the limits of Labourism/social democracy, from the limits of representation of the working class by a pressure group. Those limits are the consequence of the fact that the capitalists intervene to manage or to control the working class. The capitalists have institutions of their own: the international state system, nation-states, the judiciary, media, constitutional limitations on the power of elected bodies - like the UK monarchy and House of Lords, but equally like the presidency and Senate in the United States. It is all very well trying to represent the interests of the working class as a pressure group within the framework of capitalist society, or within the capitalist nation-state system, but the levers of power remain in the hands of the capitalist class.

Therefore the question of a Communist Party is logically posed. It is logically posed, but as a matter of history things work out differently. In many cases we have had the formation of parties which aimed to be communist, without having previously gone through the stages of the construction of basic workers’ organisations, of national trade unions, of a party of political representation of the working class within capitalist society. As I say, parties can devolve from communism into Labourism, because the logic is still there.

Party

This logic poses the question of programme. Why? Precisely because the point of a Communist Party is that the working class is to take over and remake the society in ways which are consistent with its own interests. But in order to say that, you have also to say something about how it will happen.

The necessity of a party relates to the same issue. A party is a political group within the society - it can be called a faction, as George Canning did in his ‘Epitaph on the ministry of all the talents’, which expresses Tory hostility to political parties per se:

The demon of faction that over them hung,
In accents of horror their epitaph sung,
While pride and venality joined in the stave
And canting democracy wept at the grave.

His hatred of parties (what he calls ‘factions’) is a hatred of democracy. A party is a group which makes proposals for how the whole society should organise itself. There is not here a counterposition between a reformist party and a communist party, except in so far as it is perfectly possible to have a reformist party without a programme at all. But there cannot be a communist party without a programme. If, as in the case of the Socialist Workers Party, there is no programme, what results is a sort of enraged liberalism, which represents only a scream of hatred against the existing order and can lead absolutely nowhere.

What is the history in terms of the Marxist movement in this respect? The political line of Marx was in a sense to try and reproduce Chartism. Marx and Engels not only saw Chartism as an organisation of the working class, but characterised its six points as representing the working class taking over.

In the First International, Marx sets out to support the construction of an organisation of the working class as an international class, with the most minimum possible aims: organising itself and uniting as an international class, identifying itself as an independent class and then setting out on that basis to discuss its programme. Actually the bulk of what happens in the First International is discussion of what the policy of the working class should be.

What were the components of the First International? First, the French workers’ movement, which was substantively Proudhonist. Then there was the British trade union movement and the third component was the Bakuninists, who came in late, but actually had broad support. There was an attempt to form a workers’ party out of the First International, but the reality was that the trade union leaders took fright.

On the one hand, they were pulled towards the Liberal Party by the promise of electoral reform, of trade union legalisation and so on. On the other hand, they were pushed away from the International by the Paris Commune and by Marx’s response, by the civil war in France and by the enormous, European-wide witch-hunt.

Marx and Engels were determined to push forward the idea that the working class should intervene in bourgeois politics. They won by a narrow majority, but the result was a de facto split. The Proudhonists had been wiped out and the British trade unions had withdrawn, so they moved the headquarters of the International to New York - otherwise they would in reality have been in the minority against the anarchists - and it survived for only another seven years before collapsing.

In response to that there develops a process of trying to construct national parties, most notably in Germany. Its real leaders are not Marx and Engels, but Bebel and Liebknecht. These national parties are being constructed as communist parties from the outset. Even within the Lassallean framework, the General German Workers’ Association (ADAV) had a section in its constitution outlining a world beyond capitalism. The Eisenach party, which Bebel and Liebknecht constructed out of a left split in German liberalism and drew towards affiliation to the International, adopted a semi-Marxist political programme.

Unity is achieved between the Eisenachers and the Lassallean ADAV. They adopt the Gotha programme, which is half-Lassallean, half-Marxist. The unified Gotha party grows dramatically, as German social democracy develops. It is rendered illegal by the anti-socialist law, but continues to grow in spite of this. In France the Parti Ouvrier is formed - for whom Marx writes the first part of its programme.

What is the character of programmes, such as that of the Parti Ouvrier? Generally speaking, we have a short description of general aims, an outline of the logic of the class struggle, posing the question of workers’ organisation, of the working class taking power.

Step two in the programme of the Parti Ouvrier, the Eisenach programme, the Gotha programme and Erfurt programme is a set of democratic demands. The working class proposes the reconstruction of the state as a democratic republic with a militia. It calls for freedom of the press, freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom of association - a whole series of demands of that sort.

After that we have a list of economic demands, which are not presented as ‘transitional’. They are not characterised as demands to alleviate the unpleasantnesses of capitalism either. They are demands to strengthen the position of the working class within capitalist society, by improving its conditions of existence: the eight-hour day, free universal primary education, etc.

So it is a three-part structure. Marx says of the programme of the Parti Ouvrier that the third part consists exclusively of demands raised by the movement itself. Why do we not just recapitulate that? This is very much the idea of the left: we call for the working class to organise itself on the basis of the most minimal platform - those few demands raised by the movement itself. That will trigger the organisation of a workers’ party and this party will discuss the adoption of a programme.

The problem is exactly the active intervention of the bourgeoisie within the existing workers’ parties. The proposition is, as we have constantly pointed out to people who want to create another Labour Party, that there is no point, when such a body already exists. Such existing general workers’ organisations have been rendered under the control - imperfect, but nonetheless control - of the capitalist class, as instruments of the capitalist management of society.

The consequence of this is that we are forced to put forward a fuller programme. It is not just that we confront more complex questions than were confronted in the 19th century. It is also the fact that we are not engaged in the formation of a general workers’ party, which will formulate its own policies. We are engaged in trying to pose a strategic alternative to Labourism, to the idea of a party which represents the interest of the working class within the capitalist order, but goes no further than that.

In addition, of course, we have had the experience of Stalinism. It is no good just saying, ‘We are for socialism’, when the immediate response is, ‘You mean Stalinism? I am not sure I want that. Go back to Moscow.’ The consequence of Stalinism is that it is not good enough just to say that our general aim is socialism: we have to say more about the transition, more about what immediately replaces capitalism than the programmes from the period of Erfurt, etc.

Draft

The structure of our Draft programme is in fact based on the structure of the Bolshevik programme.

First, we deal with the nature of the epoch in six substantive subsections - outlining the fact that we are in a historical process, the transition from capitalism, and the contradictions which that involves. We are clear that this transition can only be global.

Secondly, we move on to capitalism in Britain - we are not writing a programme of the World Party of Socialist Revolution.

Thirdly, there is a large set of immediate demands, whose aim is the same as it was in the programme of the party which created the Erfurt programme, and in the programme of the Bolsheviks: to strengthen the position of the working class within capitalism. As it happens, the immediate demands contain what would have been a separate section on democratic demands in the programmes of the Second International.

The view of Marx and Engels - whether it was right or wrong is debatable - was that if the democratic demands in their totality were won, that would amount to the dictatorship of the proletariat, to the replacement of the political rule of the bourgeoisie with the political rule of the working class. The working class then proceeds to reorganise society. The economic initiatives it takes and how it goes about reorganising society are a matter of tactics, but the first step is to replace the political rule of the bourgeoisie with that of the working class.

We have in a sense gone back to that idea, in that we have set out our democratic demands at considerable length and they are upfront, heading the list of immediate demands. We begin with the issues of political democracy not because we believe that, if we win, say, a workers’ militia and the right to bear arms, that will amount to the overthrow of the capitalist regime on its own. No, each individual demand can be won in theory within the framework of capitalism, just as Switzerland, for example, has a militia system.

But the creation of political democracy in the full sense - not in the sense of bourgeois democracy, with its judicial review, separation of powers, etc - has as its logical consequence that the working class starts to run the society. As for the economic demands, they do not amount in their totality to socialism - they are demands simply to strengthen the working class.

Fourthly, we discuss the character of the revolution and the role of the different social classes within it. We think it is illusory to state that Britain has become a society with just workers and bosses - there is, on the contrary, a large petty bourgeoisie and a substantial professional/managerial middle class.

This part of the programme also deals with the working class constitution - its implementation would undoubtedly and unambiguously amount to the working class taking over. Then there are proposals for economic measures. The general shape of these proposals is given by the fact that there remains a substantial petty bourgeoisie.

The aim is the immediate socialisation of everything which the capitalist class cannot run without subsidy - there is in reality an elephantine public sector. Here we pose the question of rapid movement towards a fully democratic self-management - rotation and election of managers, freedom of information and full democratic rights within the workplace. As for the remaining private sector, for all practical purposes it will consist of small enterprises, which we do not propose to forcibly expropriate, as long as they comply with working class legality.

The fifth section deals with the global transition to communism, which we talk about in the most general terms. We discuss the necessarily democratic character of socialism - but it is a transition, not the desired end. We talk in the most general terms about the transition precisely because the way things evolve will depend on circumstances and the decisions of the masses themselves. What we need to say is merely an outline.

Section six of the Draft programme discusses the nature of the Communist Party that must be built, and we have appended a set of draft rules. There is a common confusion relating to this - people say, ‘Why the hell are you drafting rules for a party that does not exist?’ But the point is, if there was a unification process on the left and such a party was brought into existence, it is vital to make clear our proposals on how it should operate.

In fact this is true of the whole document. It is a draft programme because it consists of our proposals - it is not a question of ‘Vote for this or we walk out’. They are our proposals for the programme of a serious, united Marxist party. For the same reason, we put forward draft rules and a draft constitution.

If there were a serious unification of the left on such a principled basis, it would rapidly balloon to twenty, thirty thousand. The far left is used to thinking in terms of organising small numbers, but the proposals in the draft rules are based on the prospect of organising thousands in a way which is democratic, allowing people to self-manage their practical work at the base and demanding accountability and responsibility of the leadership.

Two illusions

Two more matters, which are interconnected.

The first concerns soviets and the second transitional demands. We have included soviets - councils of action - in this programme, but we have them there as a subordinate element - as a useful way of conducting the class struggle. They are something which may play a role in the constitution of the future state. We do not regard soviets as a magic solution - the belief that ‘All power to the soviets’ will solve everything.

This aspect is not orthodox Trotskyism, but it is orthodox Trotsky - as in Lessons of October, for instance. However, the British and maybe the European far left fetishises the soviet form, which is regarded as the solution to the problems of democracy. Soviets are also envisaged to a large extent as a means whereby the working class can be won. By fighting within the soviets the small group can transform itself into a large party - which is, of course, false history in relation to the Bolsheviks: the RSDLP majority was already a mass party in February 1917. They had been cut down in terms of absolute numbers by mass repression, but to have 17,000 members on your books in circumstances where anybody who appeared to be a member of the Bolsheviks was immediately conscripted and sent to the front - or shot - represents a mass organisation.

We do not think that soviets are either a magic wand to create a mass revolutionary organisation or a solution to the problem of democracy: if there are soviets, but no freedom to form parties, factions, etc, that would be the equivalent of early-period Stalinism. If there are soviets which meet once a year to elect an executive committee, and once a month to elect a presidium, that is also Stalinism.

Soviets - as in the constitution of 1918, long before Stalinism - could be geographical representative bodies, which exist in every city and in the countryside, not the representatives of factory committees. The 1918 constitution, as written by the revolutionary Bolsheviks, takes that form precisely because the working class as a class includes the unemployed, women in the home, pensioners, etc. The conception of soviets as a federation of factory committees, etc, which is widespread on the Trotskyist left, does not succeed in organising the working class and does not succeed as a form of workers’ democracy.

The second matter relates to transitional demands. It has never been really possible to satisfactorily explain what transitional demands or, for that matter, a transitional programme mean. It was a fudge in origin, resulting from a dispute at the Fourth Congress of the Comintern over the nature of the programme. It starts out as a fight between Bukharin, who argues for the abolition of the minimum programme and for maximum programme only, and Lenin, who is arguing - as in fact he did in 1918 in relation to the revision of the party programme - that the minimum programme cannot be abolished, because we may lose power and certainly the people in the west European countries say they cannot do without the minimum programme.

Somehow these two positions were brought together by a drafting commission, which came up with the formulation, ‘transitional demands’. What they are is not explained. But Trotsky took them from the trade union programme of the Comintern and they are very largely the product of the KPD - the German Communist Party - and this is combined with an idea of his own, which was present in Results and prospects. In this book he says that, with the decline of capitalism, the distinction between the maximum and minimum programmes disappears and instead there needs to be a programme for the immediate introduction of socialism.

He does not use the word as we do, to mean the immediate phase which follows capitalism. Socialism, we say, is a synonym for working class rule, for the dictatorship of the proletariat - the transitional period which is initiated by the revolution. But Trotsky does not mean that: he means the collectivisation of everything, the abolition of money. So the transitional programme is transitional to general socialisation.

The sliding scale of wages, for example, actually means rationing in kind - it only makes sense if you work out what the worker’s shopping basket is and you index the wages against that. By proposing this rationing of the worker’s shopping basket, you are actually proposing the immediate abolition of money.

The sliding scale of hours is somewhat less problematic, but if you think of it as a programme for the society as a whole, rather than just for the public sector, it actually amounts to the immediate abolition of small capital, the immediate expropriation of the petty bourgeoisie.

It is for that reason that Trotskyists have been unable to actually make any real use of those parts, of that core conception, and so ‘transitional demands’ and ‘transitional programmes’ constantly collapse into something else. They are supposed to be a bridge between the present consciousness of the masses - ie, reformism - and a consciousness of the need to overthrow capitalism. But, as Workers Revolutionary Party guru Gerry Healy once pointed out - correctly - it is necessary for communists to say something that the masses do not already believe in order for their present consciousness to be shifted. The problem with so-called ‘transitional programmes’ and ‘transitional demands’, which do not enter into any contradiction with the consciousness of the masses, is that they wind up as common-or-garden reformism or economism.

One of the fundamental principles of our Draft programme is that we need to say upfront what we would do if we win the majority. We are setting out what we believe that majority should do and we are clear that by doing this they will overthrow capitalist rule and begin the construction of the future society. That is the point of a programme: it is not a way of tricking the masses into making a revolution.

There is no doubt whatsoever that what we are proposing will be changed and amended once a Communist Party is actually forged. But you cannot change and amend something that does not exist - you must start with a hypothesis, which is changed in the light of experimentation. And our hypothesis - our Draft programme is about the way the working class can change the world.

Die Neue Zeit
16th September 2011, 14:05
"Enraged liberalism," how touching.

Like I said, though, the Draft Programme hasn't changed much, unfortunately. Certain radical, structural, pro-labour reforms have not been listed. :(

Hit The North
16th September 2011, 15:42
As the "enraged (ex-)SWP'ers" concerned, I'll just note that a hypothesis is an elegant but simple statement of a causal relationship and McNair should take some note of this instead of presenting yet another painful historical exegesis.

In my view, there is little point in having a political programme that you have no chance of putting into effect. If the British socialist revolution kicks off next year I doubt anyone will be much concerned with the CPGB draft programme. If the revolution takes another few generations I doubt the CPGB will even exist, irrespective of comrade McNair's sincere hopes.

But I wish the CPGB well in their mission to put themselves and their draft programme at the head of an actual revolutionary movement. I suppose stranger things have happened.

Hit The North
16th September 2011, 15:45
"Enraged liberalism," how touching.


Before credibly assuming such a patronising stance, it would be necessary for you to actually engage in class struggle rather than your usual asshattery, comrade.

Serge's Fist
16th September 2011, 22:19
As the "enraged (ex-)SWP'ers" concerned, I'll just note that a hypothesis is an elegant but simple statement of a causal relationship and McNair should take some note of this instead of presenting yet another painful historical exegesis.

In my view, there is little point in having a political programme that you have no chance of putting into effect. If the British socialist revolution kicks off next year I doubt anyone will be much concerned with the CPGB draft programme. If the revolution takes another few generations I doubt the CPGB will even exist, irrespective of comrade McNair's sincere hopes.

But I wish the CPGB well in their mission to put themselves and their draft programme at the head of an actual revolutionary movement. I suppose stranger things have happened.

What are the SWP going to the working class with? Action to what end and what type of society? If you can understand the economic crisis, then where are your solutions? Or in the words of Lenin “What is your programme? That is the decisive question”.

StarCityPartisan
16th September 2011, 22:41
Before credibly assuming such a patronising stance, it would be necessary for you to actually engage in class struggle rather than your usual asshattery, comrade.

You deserve a medal after the revolution. This is the problem with "revolutionaries" around the world. If they took a minute to actually talk to a diverse range of working class people, they would be closer to a programme, rather than preaching to other leftists.

StoneFrog
16th September 2011, 22:59
"Enraged liberalism," how touching.


When i read that "Enraged liberalism" bit of it i just stopped reading, i don't have time for crap like that.

tir1944
16th September 2011, 23:16
Can anyone point out what exactly is wrong with this Programme?

Rowan Duffy
16th September 2011, 23:40
When i read that "Enraged liberalism" bit of it i just stopped reading, i don't have time for crap like that.

I thought it was an excellent description of the SWP. Now, I have several friends in the SWP who are, themselves, dedicated socialists and revolutionaries. I have no doubt of their sincerity. However, this description of the political direction of the SWP is pretty much dead on. Being a dedicated socialist simply isn't sufficient.

Now, I was recently reading an interesting article reviewing some post or neo-Marxist articles in a compilation. In it, is described a position of methodological nationalism (http://www.thenextlayer.org/node/1263). That's essentially the spurious belief that there are excellent levers of control to be won at the national level that can be seized and worked to effect. If the SWP is not completely under the illusion of this spurious belief, then the driving force are complete two-faced liars. I tend to believe the former, giving my comrades the benefit of the doubt.


Can anyone point out what exactly is wrong with this Programme?

It's far too long, it's far too detailed. At the same time, it elides important details regards how the working class are going to take control of the means of production and go back into production in a way that is not just state capitalism. It posits entirely too much legislative action that I can't see being of benefit and talks far too little about the actual changes that would move towards social revolution. In addition it's being put forward in exquisite detail by a tiny sect unhappy with the sectism of the left. Obviously design by committee is a hassle and it's good to put forward ideas, but I'm thoroughly underwhelmed by the proposal.

The talk on the other hand was quite good and lays out an interesting and reasonable schema.

Die Neue Zeit
16th September 2011, 23:44
Before credibly assuming such a patronising stance, it would be necessary for you to actually engage in class struggle rather than your usual asshattery, comrade.

But you define "class struggle" as one that starts with mere labour disputes. Anyway, that sensational sound bite was comrade Macnair's, not mine.


You deserve a medal after the revolution. This is the problem with "revolutionaries" around the world. If they took a minute to actually talk to a diverse range of working class people, they would be closer to a programme, rather than preaching to other leftists.

If said not-so-hyper-activist revolutionaries are in fact working-class by occupation and have done homework on various political issues and substantive policy proposals, then they have every privilege of "preaching," "evangelizing," and so on.

Die Neue Zeit
16th September 2011, 23:53
It's far too long, it's far too detailed. At the same time, it elides important details regards how the working class are going to take control of the means of production and go back into production in a way that is not just state capitalism.

Indeed.


It posits entirely too much legislative action that I can't see being of benefit and talks far too little about the actual changes that would move towards social revolution.

Such as?

My Draft Program is nowhere near as long as the CPGB Draft Programme, yet all Immediate, Intermediate, and Threshold Demands involve some form of legislative action (not just regulation, and up to and including constitutional amendment and enshrinement). I hope you think the Democracy Question is more flexible on the subject, and the same goes for Directional Measures, too. The latter describe, at a minimum, what you call "actual changes that would move towards social revolution."

Hit The North
17th September 2011, 00:10
Now, I was recently reading an interesting article reviewing some post or neo-Marxist articles in a compilation. In it, is described a position of methodological nationalism (http://www.thenextlayer.org/node/1263). That's essentially the spurious belief that there are excellent levers of control to be won at the national level that can be seized and worked to effect. If the SWP is not completely under the illusion of this spurious belief, then the driving force are complete two-faced liars. I tend to believe the former, giving my comrades the benefit of the doubt.


Wut :confused:

You might be confusing the SWP with the SPEW. But, anyway, are you suggesting that the working class cannot conquer certain "national levers" of control? Will the revolution be carried out in cyber space or the streets and institutions of the country?


Originally posted by DNZ
But you define "class struggle" as one that starts with mere labour disputes. I argue that the power of the working class resides at the point of production. That doesn't mean I reduce "class struggle" to "mere* labour disputes".

* Again, I'd suggest some immersion in the class struggle is necessary before you can high-handedly dismiss any strike as "mere".

Hit The North
17th September 2011, 00:23
What are the SWP going to the working class with? Action to what end and what type of society? If you can understand the economic crisis, then where are your solutions? Or in the words of Lenin “What is your programme? That is the decisive question”.

The SWP go to the working class with a clear set of positions:

What We Stand For
(http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/topic.php?id=31)

StarCityPartisan
17th September 2011, 01:01
If said not-so-hyper-activist revolutionaries are in fact working-class by occupation and have done homework on various political issues and substantive policy proposals, then they have every privilege of "preaching," "evangelizing," and so on.

Don't confuse proposing a movement to obtain real world (aka material, because after all we are Marxists) results, by educating workers and organizing in preparation for mass mobilization (as compared to maintaining a position of smug superiority on an online forum) as being "hyper".

As for "activist-revolutionaries". Absurd. Activism implies a campaign to change the system within legal parameters. Marxist Revolution is inherently illegal, as the Ruling Class will protect the means of production unless they are removed by force. That requires breaking their laws, which we should accept as unavoidable.

I wasn't suggesting that the above programme was a heaping pile or a work of genious. My intention was only to comment on the wasted effort to convince A or B to other leftists. If you have studied the historical factors in GB, are working class by occupation, and in fact have a programme that is superior: Hit the streets. However I will tell you the "intellectual arrogance" of otherwise capable revolutionaries is only alienating to the average worker, who for various psychological reasons will enter a "saving face" defense mode and shut down to all we have to say. This defense mechanism of your own, to lash in a smug manner will only halt progress. No personal offence was meant, only a piece of constructive criticism.

Q
17th September 2011, 01:26
It's far too long, it's far too detailed. At the same time, it elides important details regards how the working class are going to take control of the means of production and go back into production in a way that is not just state capitalism.


Indeed.
How was it too long and detailed? I'd argue that 15 pages of A4 isn't particularly long.

How did it, at the same time, miss so much? What should be in there concretely?


In addition it's being put forward in exquisite detail by a tiny sect unhappy with the sectism of the left. Obviously design by committee is a hassle and it's good to put forward ideas, but I'm thoroughly underwhelmed by the proposal.
I think this needs more fleshing out as well.


The talk on the other hand was quite good and lays out an interesting and reasonable schema.
So, in what way did the actual draft not live up to the talk?

If possible, writing a letter or article would probably do the discussion best.

Die Neue Zeit
17th September 2011, 01:30
How was it too long and detailed? I'd argue that 15 pages of A4 isn't particularly long.

For instance, "Our Epoch" and "Capitalism in Britain" are way too long.


How did it, at the same time, miss so much? What should be in there concretely?

I wrote various published letters in the past to them about this. One notable plank that's missing, for instance, is Minsky's ELR (see the "New Deal" thread in the Economics subforum). If you have time, do a quick run-through comparing my Draft Program and theirs, and a couple of items on my agenda are missing from theirs, too.

Q
17th September 2011, 01:40
For instance, "Our Epoch" and "Capitalism in Britain" are way too long.
A little over 2 pages of A4 is "way too long"?


I wrote various published letters in the past to them about this. One notable plank that's missing, for instance, is Minsky's ELR (see the "New Deal" thread in the Economics subforum). If you have time, do a quick run-through comparing my Draft Program and theirs, and a couple of items on my agenda are missing from theirs, too.
When I have time.

Rowan Duffy
17th September 2011, 10:33
Wut :confused:

You might be confusing the SWP with the SPEW. But, anyway, are you suggesting that the working class cannot conquer certain "national levers" of control? Will the revolution be carried out in cyber space or the streets and institutions of the country?

I'm not confusing SWP with SPEW. Yes, I'm suggesting that, in Europe especially, the idea of conquering the commanding heights at a national level is totally delusional. The fact that you seem to think so demonstrates this methodological nationalism. It was a vastly more understandable strategy when it failed to work in Germany with the SPD. In the current period where international capital can veto sovereign spending decisions, it's just silly.

Serge's Fist
17th September 2011, 12:00
The SWP go to the working class with a clear set of positions:

What We Stand For
(http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/topic.php?id=31)

Firstly it isn't very clear at all what you stand for. Are you for worker militias or not? What form do you fight for the working class to take power? Parliament? Councils? the SWP? It says that you are for LGBT liberation and against border controls, yet we had to beat the SWP block vote in Socialist Alliance to get No Borders policy. We had to fight the SWP in Respect on the same things the SWP apparently stand for. At key points the SWP has opportunistically dispensed with the "very clear set of positions". So in your 'Where we stand for' you tell workers your for all of theses things, yet when you stand in elections or join up with the likes of Galloway very few of your positions are evident. You only have to read Respect, Left List and Solidarity manifestos.

Secondly it contains an anti-Marxist position such as: "Workers create all the wealth under capitalism." Please see: http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004005

On a more general point the lack of programme leads to opportunism where the SWP's hard working comrades are marched into this or that "big thing" which prove to be dead ends. It also enables an anti-democratic caste dominate the party because political principles are so unclear and not systematically laid out that you can end up being a disruptive element for arguing aspects of your 'Where we stand' like comrades have been in numerous SWP fronts. It has the bizarre effect that loyalty to political position of your organisation can be used to prove your disloyalty in not following the whims of the CC and apparatus.

Trotsky wrote: "Now, what is the party? In what does the cohesion consist? This cohesion is a common understanding of the events, of the tasks, and this common understanding - that is the program of the party. Just as modern workers more than the barbarian cannot work without tools so in the party the program is the instrument. Without the program every worker must improvise his tool, find improvised tools, and one contradicts another." (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/tp/tpdiscuss.htm)

Hit The North
17th September 2011, 12:51
I'm not confusing SWP with SPEW. Yes, I'm suggesting that, in Europe especially, the idea of conquering the commanding heights at a national level is totally delusional. The fact that you seem to think so demonstrates this methodological nationalism. It was a vastly more understandable strategy when it failed to work in Germany with the SPD. In the current period where international capital can veto sovereign spending decisions, it's just silly.

Then you are just plain confused, as the SWP does not advocate a reformist capture of the commanding heights, it argues for a revolutionary assault against the bourgeois mode of production. It stands on a platform of internationalism but recognises that each revolution will need to settle accounts with its local bourgeoisie and its state. If, however, you can find evidence of the SWP calling for a reformist solution or for the nationalisation of the top 100 companies, or for socialism in a single country, or whatever else fits into your concept of 'methodological nationalism', then please present it.

SHORAS
17th September 2011, 13:24
each revolution (this is basically the problem I think and it does sound a lot like this:) for socialism in a single country.

The proletarian communist revolution isn't national. It's not a series of national revolutions. You come across as basically parroting the bourgeoisie.."The Egyptian Revolution"..."Libyan Revolution"...How's the 'Syrian Revolution' coming along?

Vladimir Innit Lenin
17th September 2011, 13:40
What are the SWP going to the working class with? Action to what end and what type of society? If you can understand the economic crisis, then where are your solutions? Or in the words of Lenin “What is your programme? That is the decisive question”.

True, but importantly, they are going to the working class, rather than resorting to a Social Democratic draft programme, intellectually masturbating over how clever they are for being a provisional-CP with their 'draft programme', that will quite clearly never get implemented.

I see no point in the CPGB-PCC as it is now. If you believe you are the most intellectually empowered and Marxist educated comrades in the movement, why not go to teh working class as such? If not, then you have no purpose and may as well dissolve.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
17th September 2011, 13:44
Indeed.



Such as?

My Draft Program is nowhere near as long as the CPGB Draft Programme, yet all Immediate, Intermediate, and Threshold Demands involve some form of legislative action (not just regulation, and up to and including constitutional amendment and enshrinement). I hope you think the Democracy Question is more flexible on the subject, and the same goes for Directional Measures, too. The latter describe, at a minimum, what you call "actual changes that would move towards social revolution."

Why do you have a Draft Programme? Is the point of the draft programme not that the CPGB-PCC believes itself to be a provisional group of members, preceding the re-formation of a true Communist Party?

So what are you, the provisional group of one, preceding the formation of a true DNZ Social Democratic Party? I really don't understand why you'd waste the time with your own Draft Program. It's not necessary, we all have a program, it's called our own opinions, but most of us spend more time out in the movement or at least in our communities doing useful work, than typing shit up on our keyboards that will never get implemented outside of our own minds.

I'm not trying to be a dick here, comrade, but what is your objective with, and reasoning behind, your own Draft Program? It just seems like silly fantasy to me.

Hit The North
17th September 2011, 14:13
Firstly it isn't very clear at all what you stand for. Are you for worker militias or not?


Are there currently any worker militias that the SWP needs to express its support for? This is a ridiculous and disingenuous question because as you already know, if you have read the party's literature, the SWP stands for the self-emancipation of the working class. Would this not necessitate worker militias?


What form do you fight for the working class to take power? Parliament? Councils? the SWP? On Parliament and, by extension, all organs of bourgeois representative democracy:


Parliament is a dungheap. But if you stand on top of it, your voice carries further. A socialist who is elected as an MP (or a councillor) wins a megaphone which is useful for socialist agitation. It doesn't make parliament any less of a dungheap.

In any situation where there is a real possibility of popular revolution, the cry of "the parliamentary road" will be taken up loudly by the forces of reaction. In such a situation, those who want to hold the popular movement back will support parliament, and there will be a real contest between "parliamentarism" and socialism from below.

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=131
On the role of the party (the SWP?)


It is an elementary principle, therefore, that revolutionary socialists should organise themselves and seek ways to present their own arguments. At the heart of those arguments, they always argue for maximum unity in action, for the widest internationalism, for militant self activity by the exploited and oppressed.
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=366You can find other elaborations on the need for democratic centralism and united action to push the class struggle in a socialist direction, etc. in the What We Stand For articles

here (http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=305)

here (http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=715)

and here (http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=475)

and in the wider theoretical and agitational literature. But I fear, since you ask these questions when the answers are in plain site, that even if the SWP produced the most inspirational and detailed programme, you would not read it, or read it with your peculiar selective blindness.

Some of the things you write in criticism of the SWP I agree with and this is partly why I am no longer a member. But the idea that a fifteen page programme is any guarantee against opportunism is a purely idealist position. Despite the detailed programme of the 2nd International, it could not stop it capitulating to national chauvinism and imperialism.

The roots of the SWP's alleged opportunism do not lie in its lack of an official programme, any more than the disastrous opportunism of European social democracy was a result of their having a programme.

Or, for the sake of cheap shot, the flaws, or otherwise, in the CPGB's political programme is not the reason for its complete and continued marginalisation in the life of the working class and does not explain why it remains merely a carbuncle on the arse of the SWP.

Hit The North
17th September 2011, 14:21
Originally Posted by Prole Art Threat http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2235608#post2235608)
each revolution (this is basically the problem I think and it does sound a lot like this:) for socialism in a single country. The proletarian communist revolution isn't national. It's not a series of national revolutions. You come across as basically parroting the bourgeoisie.."The Egyptian Revolution"..."Libyan Revolution"...How's the 'Syrian Revolution' coming along?

WTF is this? You have misquoted me above - out of malice or incompetence?

The link you provide is to this post of mine:


Then you are just plain confused, as the SWP does not advocate a reformist capture of the commanding heights, it argues for a revolutionary assault against the bourgeois mode of production. It stands on a platform of internationalism but recognises that each revolution will need to settle accounts with its local bourgeoisie and its state. If, however, you can find evidence of the SWP calling for a reformist solution or for the nationalisation of the top 100 companies, or for socialism in a single country, or whatever else fits into your concept of 'methodological nationalism', then please present it.

How do you reduce it to this:


Originally Posted by Prole Art Threat http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2235608#post2235608)
each revolution (this is basically the problem I think and it does sound a lot like this:) for socialism in a single country.

I think you owe me an apology.

On your substantive point: I haven't said that the revolution is national. However, you seems to be forgetting that the bourgeois states that we need to smash are, indeed, nationally constituted as real armed bodies of men.

Die Neue Zeit
17th September 2011, 18:31
Then you are just plain confused, as the SWP does not advocate a reformist capture of the commanding heights, it argues for a revolutionary assault against the bourgeois mode of production. It stands on a platform of internationalism but recognises that each revolution will need to settle accounts with its local bourgeoisie and its state. If, however, you can find evidence of the SWP calling for a reformist solution or for the nationalisation of the top 100 companies, or for socialism in a single country, or whatever else fits into your concept of 'methodological nationalism', then please present it.

The CPGB-PCC calls on a weekly basis for a Communist Party of the European Union, noting problems with "settling accounts with the local bourgeoisie and its state" in the European context.


Why do you have a Draft Programme? Is the point of the draft programme not that the CPGB-PCC believes itself to be a provisional group of members, preceding the re-formation of a true Communist Party?

Why did the tiny Communist League of Marx and Engels have a political program? Why did the initially tiny Sozialdemokratische Arbeiterpartei Deutschlands of Bebel and W. Liebknecht have the Eisenach Program?


So what are you, the provisional group of one

Well, the Transition to 21st Century Socialism in the European Union (http://reality.gn.apc.org/econ/Berlinpaper.pdf) is, despite some criticisms of mine here and there, the highest political program ever drafted for left politics at the EU level. This isn't about egos.

Without a revolutionary program there can be no revolutionary movement.

Devrim
17th September 2011, 19:08
Why did the tiny Communist League of Marx and Engels have a political program? Why did the initially tiny Sozialdemokratische Arbeiterpartei Deutschlands of Bebel and W. Liebknecht have the Eisenach Program?

Because unlike you, they were organisations, not individuals. The idea that you have your own personal programme really amused me today. Thank you.

Devrim

Vladimir Innit Lenin
17th September 2011, 22:12
Well, the Transition to 21st Century Socialism in the European Union (http://reality.gn.apc.org/econ/Berlinpaper.pdf) is, despite some criticisms of mine here and there, the highest political program ever drafted for left politics at the EU level. This isn't about egos.

Without a revolutionary program there can be no revolutionary movement.

That's quite clearly far from the 'highest political program ever drafted for left politics at the EU level'.

For a start, it starts by paraphrasing Keynes (there's a surprise!!!), and divides the world into the Capitalism of von Mises and Hayek, and the 'Socialism' of Kautsky and Bernstein. Well, if those are the choices we may as well top ourselves now and save ourselves the fucking misery.

It then goes on to simplify communism as those who 'prepare armed insurrection'. I don't think i've ever seen such a pathetically simplistic political treatment of a group of people (communists/revolutionary Socialists) who exhibit such nuanced positions on many things.

It then states its belief in the EU as a politically re-formable system, which is quite laughable, though it does explain your fantasy about some all-powerful ECB.

It then states a quite un-Marxist view of the LTV, in which "consumer goods are priced in terms of the hours and
minutes of labour it took to make them, and in which each worker is paid
labour credits for each hour worked". Now, I don't have the source to hand, but i'm fairly sure that Marx railed against the simplification of the LTV into '1 hour = 1 credit'-type equations. In reality the economy is much too complex for such a system, especially if you are talking within an EU-wide context. I doubt 1 hour of production in Germany will be equal, relative to GDP, to 1 hour of production in Greece, for example.

Thus, the commitment stated to the emancipation of the working class being the act of the working class themselves, strikes me somewhat as lip-service, i'm afraid.

What you don't realise, DNZ, is that institutions of the state must be DESTROYED (and new worker-built, anti-state, fluid and flexible institutions built in their place), not reformed. Whatever your rhetoric about worker co-management and self-emancipation, the truth is that if you are for the reform of State institutions, rather than their destruction and the spontaneous springing of workers' economic, political and workplace councils, of neighbourhood institutions of governance, then you are, unfortunately, merely paying lip service to revolution.

Destroying state institutions, post-expropriation of the bourgeoisie, is a necessary element of destroying the exploitation element of Capitalism. Otherwise, you end up with USSR/GDR-type States. History has proven this.

cmdrdeathguts
23rd September 2011, 02:20
True, but importantly, they are going to the working class, rather than resorting to a Social Democratic draft programme, intellectually masturbating over how clever they are for being a provisional-CP with their 'draft programme', that will quite clearly never get implemented.

I see no point in the CPGB-PCC as it is now. If you believe you are the most intellectually empowered and Marxist educated comrades in the movement, why not go to teh working class as such? If not, then you have no purpose and may as well dissolve.

That's some wonderful logic - if we don't have the purpose you declare we should have, then we can have no purpose, and may as well dissolve. We do not go 'to the class' because we are not in any sense a party with serious social weight. We do not deny this - what we do deny is precisely that the SWP, SPEW and a fortiori their smaller competitors are any more in a position to 'go to the class' and recruit on a mass basis. None of us are in that position - we would be, however, if we were united!

You're just missing the point - part of our critique of the left is that they fetishise desperately DOING SOMETHING over programmatic clarification with a view towards principled unity. We give good, coherent reasons for rejecting that approach -you give throwaway nothings about 'intellectual masturbation' in order to prove our bad faith.

Case closed.

RED DAVE
23rd September 2011, 03:30
But the creation of political democracy in the full sense - not in the sense of bourgeois democracy, with its judicial review, separation of powers, etc - has as its logical consequence that the working class starts to run the society. As for the economic demands, they do not amount in their totality to socialism - they are demands simply to strengthen the working class.Liberalism. Does this really mean that judicial review and the separation of powers have something to do with working class power?

RED DAVE

Die Neue Zeit
23rd September 2011, 03:50
Comrade Macnair just said "bourgeois democracy, with its judicial review, separation of powers, etc." I wouldn't call him an advocate of such.

IMO, there is separation of powers the wrong way, and separation of powers the right way. Bourgeois society separates power the wrong way (per my commentary on Sovereign Socioeconomic Governments).

RED DAVE
23rd September 2011, 04:42
Macnair just said "bourgeois democracy, with its judicial review, separation of powers, etc." I wouldn't call him an advocate of such.

IMO, there is separation of powers the wrong way, and separation of powers the right way. Bourgeois society separates power the wrong way (per my commentary on Sovereign Socioeconomic Governments).And what is the basis for your opinion?

Considering the fact that you still haven't grasped the notion that the essence of socialism is workers power emanating from workers control of the workplace, what is the point of all our blathering about judicial review, separation of powers, etc.

RED DAVE

Q
23rd September 2011, 07:19
Liberalism. Does this really mean that judicial review and the separation of powers have something to do with working class power?
You might have missed the word "not" in the bit you quoted.

Also, Macnair explicitly riles against the "rule of law" in this talk (http://vimeo.com/28656760).


Considering the fact that you still haven't grasped the notion that the essence of socialism is workers power emanating from workers control of the workplace, what is the point of all our blathering about judicial review, separation of powers, etc.

Socialism is not "workers power emanating from workers control of the workplace". This after all is perfectly possible within capitalism, be it that such "workers control" is subjected to the needs of capital.

Socialism exactly starts on the level of the whole society, i.e. on the political level and as such the "battle of democracy", as Marx phrased it, is the essential battle the working class has to win to form itself into a ruling class. From there on, there exactly starts a process to overcome the workplace, wages, money, and all that crap.

Furthermore, Macnair also tackles your definition of "socialism" from a similar but more historical angle:


Soviets - as in the constitution of 1918, long before Stalinism - could be geographical representative bodies, which exist in every city and in the countryside, not the representatives of factory committees. The 1918 constitution, as written by the revolutionary Bolsheviks, takes that form precisely because the working class as a class includes the unemployed, women in the home, pensioners, etc. The conception of soviets as a federation of factory committees, etc, which is widespread on the Trotskyist left, does not succeed in organising the working class and does not succeed as a form of workers’ democracy.
Emphasis added.

Die Neue Zeit
28th September 2011, 05:29
I wrote various published letters in the past to them about this. One notable plank that's missing, for instance, is Minsky's ELR (see the "New Deal" thread in the Economics subforum). If you have time, do a quick run-through comparing my Draft Program and theirs, and a couple of items on my agenda are missing from theirs, too.
When I have time.

To save you considerable time, comrade, since you read Ha-Joon Chang's comments on Indicative Planning, and since I coughed up an Economics thread on the subject, the resulting policy is another item in my Draft Program but not in theirs. Do they even know what Indicative Planning is? ;)

robbo203
28th September 2011, 08:43
Can anyone point out what exactly is wrong with this Programme?

Its basic reformism and its commitment to an Erfurt programme type approach. A certain recipe for denegeretating into yet another Labour party controlled capitalism or Bolshevik style state capitalism. This is just the same old-caught-in-the-treadmill-going-nowhere approach. There is no clearly articulated vision of a genuine communist future. There is little point in discussing ways and means if you are not clear on the goal and the destination you seek. So its got things the wrong way round. You should start from the goal based on what is wrong with capitalist society and then work out the means to achieve it - not the other way round. Communism is not going to be somehow magicked out of an accumulation of incremental reforms as some kind of natural progression out of the latter.

At the end of the day, the end determines the means and it is always with the end consciously in mind that we should construct our "programme"

Die Neue Zeit
29th September 2011, 06:07
Its basic reformism and its commitment to an Erfurt programme type approach.

Sorry, but the commitment to an Erfurt programmatic approach is its greatest strength, lack of substantive policies notwithstanding.


You should start from the goal based on what is wrong with capitalist society and then work out the means to achieve it - not the other way round. Communism is not going to be somehow magicked out of an accumulation of incremental reforms as some kind of natural progression out of the latter.

At the end of the day, the end determines the means and it is always with the end consciously in mind that we should construct our "programme"

That's exactly what the Erfurt Program did. A problem with the CPGB Draft Programme, though, is that it starts with lengthy prognosis and then skips all the way to reforms, leaving the maximum program at the end.