Nick Griffin to speak at Trinity College Ireland

[RedSquare]

Reports from the blog of the BNP media contact Simon Darby indicate that Nick Griffin, the still BNP leader, intends to attend a debate on immigration hosted by the Trinity College Dublin's Philosophical Society on Thursday 20th October 2011.

They have a habit of inviting controversial fascists, and it's possible that like TCD student's previous efforts to invite David Irving it will be cancelled due to security concerns. Previous efforts by fascists such as Irving and Ireland's own Justin Barrett have ended in anti-fascist action at the events, most notably with success resulting in the Garda baton charge in a University College Cork lecture hall for the Irving event, and the heckling of Barrett at University College Dublin's debating society.

If you take a quick look over to the Democratic Right Movement's website (http://drmireland.com), it's clear that they intend to capitalise on any successful Griffin visit and have invited him to come onto their webcast show. It would be a major encouragement for fascists in Ireland if this visit was to go ahead.


https://comeheretome.wordpress.com/2011/09/14/youd-never-guess-who-is-coming-to-trinity-college/

[Ballyfornia]

Any one of a protests to this?

[CommieTroll]

Any one of a protests to this?

All I'd have to do is endure a 4 hour bus journey and I'm there :laugh: It'd be a good opportunity to visit Connolly Books too

[Cork Socialist]

God I hate Nick Griffin.....

[Crux]

Anyone organizing anything?

[Vanguard1917]

Any one of a protests to this?

Protest against what? A university society choosing to invite a man famous for his anti-immigration stance to a debate on immigration?

I wonder if UAF types would be protesting if the debating society had invited, say, Jack Straw or David Blunkett, i.e. people who, unlike non-entities like Griffin, have actually locked up and deported immigrants. (Probably not, because Straw and Blunkett support UAF, as does that lover of immigrants Prime Minister David Cameron. But let's not let that distract us from the real enemy.)

[Crux]

Protest against what? A university society choosing to invite a man famous for his anti-immigration stance to a debate on immigration?

I wonder if UAF types would be protesting if the debating society had invited, say, Jack Straw or David Blunkett, i.e. people who, unlike non-entities like Griffin, have actually locked up and deported immigrants. (Probably not, because Straw and Blunkett support UAF, as does that lover of immigrants Prime Minister David Cameron. But let's not let that distract us from the real enemy.)
:rolleyes:

[Anarchist Skinhead]

I would protest against all of those bastards personally. In this particular one I do hope he will get a "royal welcome" and i dont mean pathetic UAF style chants from behind a police line.

[Ballyfornia]

All I'd have to do is endure a 4 hour bus journey and I'm there :laugh: It'd be a good opportunity to visit Connolly Books too

Similar situation :lol:

[Sam_b]

i dont mean pathetic UAF style chants from behind a police line

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-trick_pony

[kombatwombat]

Nick Griffin needs to be set on fire.


Allegedly.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

sorry, I am afraid being a foreigner I didn't get your presumably oh-so-clever reference.

[PhoenixAsh]

It refers to somebody being able to do just one thing well. It also indicates somebody who trot out the same material over an over again.


I am not altogether sure if this was meant for you or for the UAF...

[Hit The North]

I wonder if UAF types would be protesting if the debating society had invited, say, Jack Straw or David Blunkett, i.e. people who, unlike non-entities like Griffin, have actually locked up and deported immigrants. (Probably not, because Straw and Blunkett support UAF, as does that lover of immigrants Prime Minister David Cameron. But let's not let that distract us from the real enemy.)

Let's be clear: there is no way that Straw, Blunkett and Cameron really support the UAF, apart from foolishly signing a list somewhere in order to boost their anti-racist credentials. None of them have ever attended or would ever attend a UAF rally. Meanwhile, any backward inference that the UAF support the immigration policies of these bourgeois politicians is also entirely spurious.

FTAO of Vanguard1917, Griffin is an ideologically convinced fascist and would not only do bad things to immigrants, if he got the chance. It is because he is a fascist that he should be mobilised against by anti-fascist organisations. Otherwise, what would be the point of these organisations existing at all?

[Devrim]

FTAO of Vanguard1917, Griffin is an ideologically convinced fascist and would not only do bad things to immigrants, if he got the chance.

There is a problem with this sentence, and I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say, but obviously it is true that Griffin is a rather unpleasant piece of work. It is also true that he is extremely unlikely to ever be in any position of real political power within the state.

Straw, Blunkett and Cameron on the other hand are people who have/have had political power within the state, and therefore have been involved, and in Blunkett's case directly so with him being Home Secretary, in locking up immigrants in detention camps and deporting them. Things Griffin can only fantasise about.

Devrim

[black magick hustla]

Otherwise, what would be the point of these organisations existing at all?

good question. now people are finally starting to ask the correct questions.

[Hit The North]

There is a problem with this sentence, and I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say, but obviously it is true that Griffin is a rather unpleasant piece of work. It is also true that he is extremely unlikely to ever be in any position of real political power within the state.



You'd understand what I meant if you'd included the sentence following it: "It is because he is a fascist that he should be mobilised against by anti-fascist organisations."


Straw, Blunkett and Cameron on the other hand are people who have/have had political power within the state, and therefore have been involved, and in Blunkett's case directly so with him being Home Secretary, in locking up immigrants in detention camps and deporting them. Things Griffin can only fantasise about.


True, and the majority of activists in and around the UAF opposed Blunkett's disgusting policies and continue to be among the people who mobilise local campaigns against proposed deportations in the current period.

Regardless of Blunkett's appalling politics, he is not a fascist. The UAF is a narrow campaigning group against fascism: that is, against fascist organisations.

Anyway, what do you care if a group of determined anti-fascists decide to try and mobilise to give a wanker like Griffin a hard time?

[Devrim]

You'd understand what I meant if you'd included the sentence following it: "It is because he is a fascist that he should be mobilised against by anti-fascist organisations."

It still doesn't make any sense. The sentence should run something like this:

"Griffin is an ideologically convinced fascist and would not only do bad things to immigrants, if he got the chance but also would attack working class living standards."

While I am being the grammar pedant, the comma is superfluous too. ;)

Aren't you a school teacher or something like that?

Devrim

[Hit The North]

It still doesn't make any sense. The sentence should run something like this:

"Griffin is an ideologically convinced fascist and would not only do bad things to immigrants, if he got the chance but also would attack working class living standards."

While I am being the grammar pedant, the comma is superfluous too. ;)

Aren't you a school teacher or something like that?

Devrim

Sorry, I thought you wanted to make a political point. :rolleyes:

No, I'm not a school teacher, although I am "something like that".

[Aurora]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to focus on the issue at hand rather than discussing UAF which doesn't exist in Ireland?

Those arguing that fascists are irrelevant, your partially right especially in the south where there is no organised fascist party like the BNP but part of the reason there is practically no fascist presence is because of the work of anti-fascists in stopping their organising whenever they show their faces and by stopping people like David Irving and Nick Griffin from having a platform to spew hate speech and recruit.

The argument about fascists not holding state power is irrelevant, where fascists exist there are racist attacks, in 2009 in Belfast the houses of several Roma families were attacked and had their windows smashed in by suspected C18, no state power necessary.

So how should socialists react to fascism, by denouncing it as irrelevant? or perhaps like socialists did in 2008 by organising enough opposition to stop David Irving speaking in Cork and in Belfast 2009 by showing solidarity with the Roma under attack and organising the defence of the homes?

[black magick hustla]

Those arguing that fascists are irrelevant, your partially right especially in the south where there is no organised fascist party like the BNP but part of the reason there is practically no fascist presence is because of the work of anti-fascists in stopping their organising whenever they show their faces and by stopping people like David Irving and Nick Griffin from having a platform to spew hate speech and recruit.

i think antifas have a tendency to overemphasize their effect, they always claim "fascists" don't exist here and there because they punched them out. anyway, 1) nick griffin is not a fascist, 2) violence against minorities and immigrants is as ancient as pyramids and can be made manifest in many ideological forms. you can't "beat" hatred out of the streets, in the way the state can't beat "terrorism" out of the streets.

The argument about fascists not holding state power is irrelevant, where fascists exist there are racist attacks, in 2009 in Belfast the houses of several Roma families were attacked and had their windows smashed in by suspected C18, no state power necessary.



So how should socialists react to fascism, by denouncing it as irrelevant? or perhaps like socialists did in 2008 by organising enough opposition to stop David Irving speaking in Cork and in Belfast 2009 by showing solidarity with the Roma under attack and organising the defence of the homes?

violence against roma and feelings against roma people are rampant, and fascism has very little to do with it. fascism is not a meaningful force today in the UK.

[Hit The North]

1) nick griffin is not a fascist,

Eh up, what is this? Why do you say he is not a fascist?


For all the carefully cultivated "reasonableness" of his public persona today, Griffin has a similar far-right background to Tyndall. He was a national organiser for the NF in the 1970s, and in the 1980s was heavily influenced by Roberto Fiore, a leader of the Italian fascist organisation the Armed Revolutionary Nuclei (NAR), who fled to Britain to avoid prosecution over the 1980 bombing of Bologna railway station in which 85 people died. Throughout the 1980s Griffin was a leading figure in what remained of the NF, promoting a NAR-inspired "Third Positionist" ideology that claimed to offer an alternative to both capitalism and communism. Griffin and the Third Positionists advocated a "political soldier" strategy which rejected the 1970s NF’s objectives of mass membership and electoral success in favour of building an elite corps of professional fascist "revolutionaries".

However, as the NF fragmented in an outbreak of political infighting, the Third Positionists broke away in 1989 to form a separate grouping, and by 1991 Griffin had abandoned organised fascist politics altogether. After a brief period in the political wilderness he joined the BNP in 1995 and became editor of Tyndall’s magazine Spearhead. Ironically, in view of subsequent developments, Tyndall brought Griffin into the BNP to act as a counterweight to an opposition headed by Tony Lecomber and others who favoured playing down the fascist character of the party in order to establish a broader popular appeal.

Griffin used Spearhead to denounce the "spiral of sickly moderation" and scorned the idea of the BNP projecting an image of restraint and respectability. Commenting on the party’s earlier success in a council by-election in Millwall in 1993, Griffin wrote that the voters had not backed "a Post-Modernist Rightist Party, but what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan ‘Defend Rights for Whites’ with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate."
http://www.whatnextjournal.co.uk/Pages/latest/BNP2.html

[Anarchist Skinhead]

with a rise of EDL I beg to differ my man..

[Sasha]

i think antifas have a tendency to overemphasize their effect, they always claim "fascists" don't exist here and there because they punched them out. anyway, 1) nick griffin is not a fascist, 2) violence against minorities and immigrants is as ancient as pyramids and can be made manifest in many ideological forms. you can't "beat" hatred out of the streets, in the way the state can't beat "terrorism" out of the streets.

The argument about fascists not holding state power is irrelevant, where fascists exist there are racist attacks, in 2009 in Belfast the houses of several Roma families were attacked and had their windows smashed in by suspected C18, no state power necessary

your first paragraph is at direct odds with your second, but this is because you misunderstand anti-fascist theory and praxis.
We, like you. say that "where fascists exist there are (racist) attacks"
But we, from experience, also know that the more organised the fascist presence, the more these attacks happen, both in absolute numbers as in visciousness.
We don't pretend we can beat hatred of the street but we know we can beat fascist organizing from the streets. And to take your silly terrorism analogy, destroying the more organised terrorists, attacking their infrastructures, their finances, their communications, their command structures etc etc all have had very tangible effects. Ofcourse they won't destroy terrorism and we won't destroy hate but to say either campaign had zero effects and is a completely pointless affair is delusional.
But to make an analogy of my own: most workers organising like unionizing, striking, attacks on scabs etc will not destroy capitalism at all but they do fulfill an esential function in creating the operating space in which the struggle against capitalism can organize.

[bricolage]

your first paragraph is at direct odds with your second, but this is because you misunderstand anti-fascist theory and praxis.
We, like you. say that "where fascists exist there are (racist) attacks"

The quoting went wrong, "The argument about fascists not holding state power is irrelevant, where fascists exist there are racist attacks, in 2009 in Belfast the houses of several Roma families were attacked and had their windows smashed in by suspected C18, no state power necessary." was posted by Anarion.

[brigadista]

he wont be driving his Skoda...

http://liveraf.wordpress.com/2011/09/04/bailiffs-seize-bnp-boss-nick-griffins-car/

[HEAD ICE]

anti-immigrant and racist rhetoric, the kind I see from the BNP, often manifests itself in fascism but is not an indicator of fascism. I don't believe the BNP is fascist. They are anti-immigrant and racist, but so is bourgeois democracy. While the USA was "fighting fascism" in WWII it was perfectly legal in many parts of this country to hang black people from a tree, put Japanese americans in concentration camps, arrest and imprison communists. Yet the USA never was fascist. To say all these things go against the ideals of liberalism and that America was not a "true democracy" because of it is to buy into the lie of bourgeois democracy.

[black magick hustla]

We don't pretend we can beat hatred of the street but we know we can beat fascist organizing from the streets.

ask any british antifa and they will tell you how their glorious army of bootstrapped oi skinheads destroyed the national front, while in reality the nf dissappeared because the "respectable right wing" thatcherites stole their thunder.



And to take your silly terrorism analogy, destroying the more organised terrorists, attacking their infrastructures, their finances, their communications, their command structures etc etc all have had very tangible effects. Ofcourse they won't destroy terrorism and we won't destroy hate but to say either campaign had zero effects and is a completely pointless affair is delusional.

*shrugs* maybe. or maybe if there are is a strong atmosphere of hate etc it will simply get absorbed into a 10000x more effective organ, like the state (as it happened in the 80s, and is happening to day with the rise of the nationalist right wing like the french national front), than a bunch of metheads, nonces, and assorted lowlives that constitute a lot of the "fascist gutter right" in many countries.






But to make an analogy of my own: most workers organising like unionizing, striking, attacks on scabs etc will not destroy capitalism at all but they do fulfill an esential function in creating the operating space in which the struggle against capitalism can organize.
except one constitutes the self movement of the class, and the other reduces itself to subcultural gang warfare. and dont tell me it doesnt, you as an "antifa skinhead" know damn well.

[brigadista]

tories ,lib dems and NLabour doing it all for the BNP makes them redundant

[Anarchist Skinhead]

I know damn well black magic that you should do something better with your life than troll this forum, you never know, you might like it .

[Sasha]

@ bmh: "antifa skinhead"?
A: i haven't identified as a skinhead for ages
B: I became aware of the importance of antifascism when I was about 9, when our frontdoor was dabbed with swastika's and anti-Jewish slurs and I found out what happend to my familly in WW2 and before that in the Spanish civilwar, my short dabble in the skinhead culture came about 8 years later.
Let me extend an heartfelt fuck you to you...

[black magick hustla]

I know damn well black magic that you should do something better with your life than troll this forum, you never know, you might like it .

thats cute. i barely post in here. whatever "anarchist skinhead" and self proclaimed "antifa hooligan" lol

[black magick hustla]

@ bmh: "antifa skinhead"?
A: i haven't identified as a skinhead for ages
B: I became aware of the importance of antifascism when I was about 9, when our frontdoor was dabbed with swastika's and anti-Jewish slurs and I found out what happend to my familly in WW2 and before that in the Spanish civilwar, my short dabble in the skinhead culture came about 8 years later.
Let me extend an heartfelt fuck you to you...

you didn't address any argument

[black magick hustla]

heartfelt fuck you to you

hey dont be cute, i got infracted by you for the same shit,

[MilitantTrot]

ahem... back to Nick Griffin.

I'm a Socialist Party member based in Trinity College and I'm trying, along with others, to organize a campaign to keep him out. Would appreciate any help.

Political and organisational meeting organized for Tuesday Septmeber 27th, 4pm, room 3051 of the Arts Block in Trinity. Anyone who can make it along should definitely. We'll be discussing whether and how to keep him out of Trinity, and hopefully building as broad-based a campaign as possible.

[Sasha]

you didn't address any argument


what argument? that antifascism is nothing more than subcultural warfare?.that was not an argument, that was a statement. and i did address it, i showed you that for at least me its about among other things; an principle of never again, better safe than sorry and personal antagonism.
or your claim that attacking scabs and "pinkerton" heavies/hitsquats is something completely different than attacking the fash?
I think you really dont understand the function of fash in todays society and thats because you have no bloody clue what it is to try to organize leftist activity in a town with an dominant neo-nazi presence.
you should really take a trip to, lets say dortmund, one day.
people there are getting murdered for being leftists, no not even because they are in anti-fascism, just for being presumed leftists...
go look in greece, who do you think are the guys stabbing activists and migrants while under police protection? go look in columbia, who do you think form the death-squadrons that kill off the unionists? russia? eastern europe? venuzuela? turkey?
or closer to home, you think its a coincidence that mad dog adair became a posterboy for first combat 18 and now the EDL?
the fash are todays pinkertons, destroying their organisations is essential to create and protect the space in which workers can work and organize to ultimately overthrow capitalism.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

well said Psycho.
Alternatively you can just clean the thread a bit , i am sure trolling tosser qill quickly get bored.

[Sasha]

hey dont be cute, i got infracted by you for the same shit,

No you didnt, you got infracted for repeaetitly dropping the same oneliners without engaging debate.

Now I don't know if it is that your neck of the woods really is that different, or that you are dogmaticaly repeating left-com positions without realizing that the left-com dogma's about anti-fascism are an rejection of bourgeois class-collaborationist anti-fascism and not an usefull analysis of radical autonomist praxis and theory, or that you are just masquerading cowardice but you should really make an effort or just stay out of this section. Because at this moment you are just being disrespectful about other leftists their idealism and activism. Even if you would disagree with feminism you wouldn't be pulling this in the women's struggles section would you? Then also don't pull it here. You are free to disagree with antifascism but don't be a dick about it please...

[Sasha]

well said Psycho.
Alternatively you can just clean the thread a bit , i am sure trolling tosser qill quickly get bored.

Euhm, Thanx for the feather up my bum but you are not helping, verbal warning for flaming.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

just calling things as they are, perhapps in less polite way. But ok, warning accepted, I will behave ;)
@MilitantTror- whilst I am too far away to help myself, good luck wiht it.. I don't think the question should be "whether" to keep him away, but "how" to keep him away.

[black magick hustla]

what argument? that antifascism is nothing more than subcultural warfare?.that was not an argument, that was a statement. and i did address it, i showed you that for at least me its about among other things; an principle of never again, better safe than sorry and personal antagonism.

there are a lot of things to be better safe than sorry, but nazi low lives are on the bottom of the priority list.




or your claim that attacking scabs and "pinkerton" heavies/hitsquats is something completely different than attacking the fash?

of course its something completely different than attacking the nazis today. one happens in periods of intense class struggle and is done by the hand of workers that are not necessarily subcultural ideologues, but normal people, and the other is done by a bunch of ideological wingnuts and the sausage fest brigade that is the antifascist movement that is heavily influenced by subcultures like punk and skinhead.



I
people there are getting murdered for being leftists, no not even because they are in anti-fascism, just for being presumed leftists...

yes,this happens everywhere, and is done by the hands of many people, not some specific fascist methodology that you think dominates violence against migrants and leftists.




go look in greece, who do you think are the guys stabbing activists and migrants while under police protection? go look in columbia, who do you think form the death-squadrons that kill off the unionists? russia? eastern europe? venuzuela? turkey?

dude, when i was close to the icc, there was a very active turkish section made up of mostly kurds. the grey wolves are very dangerous, yes, and i think there are times we have to act in self defense but i think that is very different from the subcultural gang war that has become "antifascism" in the west. also latin american paramilitaries are not "fascists" not everyone that commits violence against communists are fascist dude.





the fash are todays pinkertons, destroying their organisations is essential to create and protect the space in which workers can work and organize to ultimately overthrow capitalism.

as i mentioned before, it is a failed analogy.

[fionntan]

I had a chat with a Dublin antifascist yesterday in Belfast and he assured me Griffin will not be speaking.:D

[Sasha]

there are a lot of things to be better safe than sorry, but nazi low lives are on the bottom of the priority list.




of course its something completely different than attacking the nazis today. one happens in periods of intense class struggle and is done by the hand of workers that are not necessarily subcultural ideologues, but normal people, and the other is done by a bunch of ideological wingnuts and the sausage fest brigade that is the antifascist movement that is heavily influenced by subcultures like punk and skinhead.


yes,this happens everywhere, and is done by the hands of many people, not some specific fascist methodology that you think dominates violence against migrants and leftists.



dude, when i was close to the icc, there was a very active turkish section made up of mostly kurds. the grey wolves are very dangerous, yes, and i think there are times we have to act in self defense but i think that is very different from the subcultural gang war that has become "antifascism" in the west. also latin american paramilitaries are not "fascists" not everyone that commits violence against communists are fascist dude.





as i mentioned before, it is a failed analogy.

Guess its pretty clear you have no clue what you are talking about, maybe you should take a trip through Europe and actually meet some antifascist who are older than 15.
You now sound as informed as your average Murdoch tabloid.
But thanks for sharing your "dont confuse me with the facts when my mind is made up" opinions, i trust you from now on leave this section alone until you are willing to actually debate.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

@black magic
I invite you to spend a week in my hometown in Poland and organise any anarchist/left wing activity openly. Let's see if nazi lowlifes will be on the bottom of your priority (that assuming you will still be able to conduct any activity after that).
In short you talk poo-poo sir.

[PhoenixAsh]

While I agree with the argument that not all people/groups who attack leftists, "minorities" or LGBT people are fascists most of them certainly come from the same corner, are inspired by groups which have ties to fascist or neo-Nazi organisations or are inspired by (some of) the same ideological theories.

The term fascist in the context of AFA/ANTIFA should not be to narrowly defined towards specific movements which fit a certain specific ideology. The respective organisations counter and oppose the variety of ideologes which are not only fascist in their origins but also make society as a whole more open to fascist and neo-Nazi ideology by allowing their expression to become mainstream or accepted as a valid political thought and concept.

A reference was made to the "respectable right wing". I like to add that the respectable rightwing is often as a part of strategy infiltrated by fascists and neo-Nazi elements with the specific goal of making the movement and ideology more respectable. This is a strategy which is well documented by various organisations in the AFA/ANTIFA corner (both radical and burgeoisie) and even by the mainstream media....and certainly not denied by fascists and neo-nazi's themselves.

In Europe fascism is still very much alive and kicking. Especially in the Eastern part where ultra rightwing nationalism is pretty much unopposed and mainstream.

If I go to Poland, Russia and the Ukrain I can not wear any leftwing symbols for my safety and the safety or people I am with. Several members of the groups I work with are very much concerned with keeping their identities hidden. So much so that even in social traffic over the internet they hide their identities. In the last six months three of them have been killed or hospitalised when they were attacked because of their political views outside political situations. They were sought up, taregtted and attacked in their own private situations.

Recently I was in western Germany and I was attacked with a boxcutter by some NDP guys. Got a nice cut over my cheek and some nasty bruising. All for displaying an anarchist symbol on my shirt.

So do not tell me that anti fascism is not a main priority. Marxism and revolutionary theory tells us that society will eventually develop into bonapartism and fascism. With the rise of ultra nationalism, anti-semitism, racism and LGBTQ-phobia this is already set in motion. That is a course of development we need to halt and prevent just as much as we need to overturn the capitalist system itself.

[Invader Zim]

Protest against what? A university society choosing to invite a man famous for his anti-immigration stance to a debate on immigration?

I wonder if UAF types would be protesting if the debating society had invited, say, Jack Straw or David Blunkett, i.e. people who, unlike non-entities like Griffin, have actually locked up and deported immigrants. (Probably not, because Straw and Blunkett support UAF, as does that lover of immigrants Prime Minister David Cameron. But let's not let that distract us from the real enemy.)

Nick Griffin has turned the BNP from a party that could only muster a few thousand votes two decades ago into the fifth most successful party in Britain which accrued in excess of half a million votes at the last general election. In his term of leadership the BNP have increased their election tally by nearly 1200%. And you think that they are a mere distraction?