is this true of stalin?

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

in my history book, it is very right propoganda. but i do want to see the credibilty of one thing, this excerpt:

Stalin tried to create a myth that he was the country's father and savior. Stalin glorified himslef as the symbol of the nation. He encouraged people to think of him as "The Greatest Genius of All Times and Peoples." Many towns, factories, and streets in the Soviet Union were named for Stalin. A new metal was called Stalinite. An orchid was named Stalinchid. Children standing before their desks every morning said, "Thank Comrade Stalin for this happy life."

im really skeptical of this. the same book also states between 8 million to 13 million deaths happend in the great purge. even though le livre noir du communisme states that their where only 670.000 killed

[Tim Cornelis]

I heard the same thing, there is also propaganda pictures depicting children with Stalin titled something similar (Thank Comrade Stalin for my happy youth).

But "only" 680,000 people were killed during the Great Purge according to official Soviet documents.


According to the declassified Soviet archives, during 1937 and 1938, the NKVD detained 1,548,366 victims, of whom 681,692 were shot - an average of 1,000 executions a day (in comparison, the Tsarists executed 3,932 persons for political crimes from 1825 to 1910 - an average of less than 1 execution per week)

So your history book is certainly not factual.

EDIT: the propaganda in question: "Thank you, Comrade Stalin, for our Happy Childhood"

http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkmqk8XO1L1qhhvo8o1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId =AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1316100104&Signature=m6OKAlRr2YYqxIO7CHf1TF2eX%2FY%3D

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Say WHAAAAT?
dzT_dzYaJno
WTF?
Throw this book!It is lying!

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

I heard the same thing, there is also propaganda pictures depicting children with Stalin titled something similar (Thank Comrade Stalin for my happy youth).

But "only" 680,000 people were killed during the Great Purge according to official Soviet documents.



So your history book is certainly not factual.

EDIT: the propaganda in question: "Thank you, Comrade Stalin, for our Happy Childhood"

http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkmqk8XO1L1qhhvo8o1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId =AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1316100104&Signature=m6OKAlRr2YYqxIO7CHf1TF2eX%2FY%3D

not my question, but still thanks for the photo

[thesadmafioso]

All of these details seem to be rather standard trappings of a cult of personality, I wouldn't really bring them under too much scrutiny.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Why do people need to make shit up about Stalin to slander him? He did plenty of real bad things, like deporting Chechen people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Chechnya#Operation_Lentil.2FAardakh) and Kalmyk people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalmyk_deportations_of_1943) to Siberia as collective punishment for instance, an action which killed thousands of innocent civilians, or forcefully collectivizing or resettling various populations in part of the country, or sending monks, priests and imams to the Gulags merely for being religious functionaries alongside anyone with the bad luck of being seen as a Trot or some other "political undesirable" (often whether or not the suspicions of being in the opposition were well-grounded, of course).

as for the question in the OP, Stalin was pretty much the pioneer of the cult of personality so yeah i'd expect this kind of thing in soviet schools

[Jimmie Higgins]

I always had the impression that Stalin's rule diefied Lenin and Marx and Engels more than Stalin himself... he just claimed to be their logical successor.

[eyeheartlenin]

A number of places in the USSR were re-named in Stalin's honor: Stalingrad, Stalino, Stalinabad, Stalinsk, and Mount Stalin, come to mind. During Stalin's lifetime, one Soviet author reportedly wrote that the letter "a" should be grateful to have a place in Stalin's name, and songs about "the great Stalin" were composed, even in the workers' states. There was one such song in the DDR ("East Germany") explicitly about Stalin, that can still be heard on youtube, as can the memorable East German song, "Die Partei hat immer Recht!" ("The Party is always right!"), which mentions Stalin, alongside Lenin, in the refrain.

There is an excellent novel, "Generations of Winter," depicting Stalinist rule in the USSR, which indicates that that the Stalin cult quickly evaporated, beginning with Stalin's death. One gets the impression that the whole society breathed a sigh of relief, after the passing of "great Stalin." There is anecdotal evidence to that effect: a couple of workers in Moscow were taking down giant portraits of the Soviet leadership, and, when Stalin's portrait unexpectedly fell, one worker said to another, "Leave it. We won't be needing that one again." Reportedly, the men at the highest level of the Soviet power structure, the Politburo IIRC, were immensely relieved, when Stalin passed away.

Trotsky wrote that, whereas Louis XIV could say, "L'état, c'est moi," Stalin could boast that "La société, c'est moi," so I would guess that the Stalin cult was pervasive in the USSR during his lifetime.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Why do people need to make shit up about Stalin to slander him? He did plenty of real bad things, like deporting Chechen people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Chechnya#Operation_Lentil.2FAardakh) and Kalmyk people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalmyk_deportations_of_1943) to Siberia as collective punishment for instance, an action which killed thousands of innocent civilians, or forcefully collectivizing or resettling various populations in part of the country, or sending monks, priests and imams to the Gulags merely for being religious functionaries alongside anyone with the bad luck of being seen as a Trot or some other "political undesirable" (often whether or not the suspicions of being in the opposition were well-grounded, of course).

as for the question in the OP, Stalin was pretty much the pioneer of the cult of personality so yeah i'd expect this kind of thing in soviet schools

Also don't forget his excessive military buildup and his treatment of homosexuals.

[tir1944]

Are you talking about the "excessive military build-up" in the face of Nazi aggression or the one in the face of (potential) Imperialist aggression in the immediate post-WW2 period?
:(

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Are you talking about the "excessive military build-up" in the face of Nazi aggression or the one in the face of (potential) Imperialist aggression in the immediate post-WW2 period?
:(

I am talking about his excessive build up post-world war two.There came a time where after enough nuclear weapons and tanks were built that he didn't need anymore because he had more than enough.Plus when you add in socialist allies which would have entered any potential war on Russia's side you have a recipe which ended up wasting precious resources.

I would agree that his industrialization and build up was needed to defeat the Nazis but years after the end of WWII there was a moment which Stalin had more than enough weapons.

[Nox]

That statement stinks of Anti-Communist or Trotskyist propaganda.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

That statement stinks of Anti-Communist or Trotskyist propaganda.

How is it anti-communist to be anti-war?

And you believe that with all his weapons and all his allies Stalin would have suffered a defeat at the hands of invaders? Explain please.

[tir1944]

I am talking about his excessive build up post-world war two.In what way was it "excessive"? How much money did the USSR spend on its defense?



There came a time where after enough nuclear weapons and tanks were built that he didn't need anymore because he had more than enough.You do know that the Soviet Union got its first atomic bomb in 1949,right?


Plus when you add in socialist allies which would have entered any potential war on Russia's side you have a recipe which ended up wasting precious resources.Yugoslavia was pretty much the only Soviet ally in Europe with a somewhat capable Army,and even they lacked a serious Air-force,Navy or Armored forces.



There came a time where after enough nuclear weapons and tanks were built that he didn't need anymore because he had more than enough.How many (modern) tanks did the USSR have in,let's say,1946,and how many tanks do you consider "enough"?

[Tablo]

Yeah, the Soviet Union certainly overproduced weapons following WWII to its collapse. The nuclear arms they had were more than enough to deter any Western invasion. Obviously they would need to maintain and build new weapons to replace the old. I've often heard in classes that a large part of Soviet shortages came from overproduction of weapons and an underproduction of things people actually need/want.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

That statement stinks of Anti-Communist or Trotskyist propaganda.

Probably the worst comment i've seen on this site for a long time. So i'll retort:

That statement stinks of murderous, Stalinist, bureaucratic, Gulag-loving propaganda.

Luckily, i'm being mildly sarcastic, just to show you how pathetic your comment was.

[Nox]

Are you guys seriously believing that this isn't total bullshit?


He encouraged people to think of him as "The Greatest Genius of All Times and Peoples." Many towns, factories, and streets in the Soviet Union were named for Stalin. A new metal was called Stalinite. An orchid was named Stalinchid. Children standing before their desks every morning said, "Thank Comrade Stalin for this happy life."

You have to be pretty stupid to think this is anything other than pure propaganda against Stalin.

[Nox]

Probably the worst comment i've seen on this site for a long time. So i'll retort:

That statement stinks of murderous, Stalinist, bureaucratic, Gulag-loving propaganda.

Luckily, i'm being mildly sarcastic, just to show you how pathetic your comment was.

I didn't mention anything about the Soviet Union under Stalin.

All I said was that that statement is probably propaganda, it's highly exaggurated at the very least.

You must be pretty stupid if you genuinely believe the stuff in the quote was real.

[Nox]

How is it anti-communist to be anti-war?

And you believe that with all his weapons and all his allies Stalin would have suffered a defeat at the hands of invaders? Explain please.

My comment was directed at the OP not your post ;)

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Are you guys seriously believing that this isn't total bullshit?



You have to be pretty stupid to think this is anything other than pure propaganda against Stalin.

Some of it, but it has a point in showing us towards the existence of a cult of personality. Indeed, i'm sure that the stuff about places being named after Stalin is true.

Unless you're denying that there was a cult of personality around the bloke.

Oh and, how childish to neg rep.:rolleyes:

[Nox]

Some of it, but it has a point in showing us towards the existence of a cult of personality. Indeed, i'm sure that the stuff about places being named after Stalin is true.

Unless you're denying that there was a cult of personality around the bloke.

Oh and, how childish to neg rep.:rolleyes:

My point still stands.

It is highly exaggurated propaganda.

[Tim Cornelis]

Are you guys seriously believing that this isn't total bullshit?

"He encouraged people to think of him as "The Greatest Genius of All Times and Peoples." Many towns, factories, and streets in the Soviet Union were named for Stalin. A new metal was called Stalinite. An orchid was named Stalinchid. Children standing before their desks every morning said, "Thank Comrade Stalin for this happy life.""

You have to be pretty stupid to think this is anything other than pure propaganda against Stalin.

It is based on facts. For example, the part about children thanking Stalin certainly was used as propaganda--and it's not unlikely children also recited it at the beginning of each school day. Many towns, factories and streets were called after Stalin. I couldn't find anything about the metal. Stalinchid seems to be fabricated--but if it was true, no one would be surprised, it's not that crazy.

And people did call him The Greatest Genius, e.g. Vladimir Antonov-Ovseyenko. But whether he encouraged it... who knows.

[Nox]

It is based on facts. For example, the part about children thanking Stalin certainly was used as propaganda--and it's not unlikely children also recited it at the beginning of each school day. Many towns, factories and streets were called after Stalin. I couldn't find anything about the metal. Stalinchid seems to be fabricated--but if it was true, no one would be surprised, it's not that crazy.

And people did call him The Greatest Genius, e.g. Vladimir Antonov-Ovseyenko. But whether he encouraged it... who knows.

Parts of the quote may be based on truth, but as a whole it is highly exaggurated.

I don't see how anyone can read that and believe that shit.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

My point still stands.

It is highly exaggurated propaganda.

It's embellished, but nonetheless there were many shocking idiosyncracies within the USSR which pointed to a monumental cult of personality, so no your point doesn't stand.

To draw an analogy: bourgeois historians often conjure figures for the amount of deaths in the great purge out of thin air - 5, 10, 20 million. Idiocy. That it is apart from the actual figure, which is probably (though we'll probably never know more accurately) anywhere between 100,000 and 1 million, does not distort from the monstrosity of the occurrence, nor the fact of it. It merely exaggerates, to suit their own ideological agenda.

[Nox]

It's embellished, but nonetheless there were many shocking idiosyncracies within the USSR which pointed to a monumental cult of personality, so no your point doesn't stand.



My point was that the quote was highly exaggurated propaganda, so yes it does stand.

I am not denying that there was a cult of personality during Stalin's rule, I'm just saying that quote is highly exaggurated.

I do not see how making a valid point is "the dumbest post ever", please explain your logic.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I was referring to your rejection of any sort of independent thinking and resorting to the T (Trotskyist) word as an insult. It really makes you guys look bad, just saying.:thumbdown:

[TheGodlessUtopian]

@ Tir1944 : I do not engage in these tendency wars,even more so when it concerns a "what if" scenario born out of defense.I am sure someone here would be more than glad to take you up on your opinions,but it is of my opinion that Stalin had more than enough weapons and allies to properly defend himself.

Good day.:cool:

[Nox]

I was referring to your rejection of any sort of independent thinking and resorting to the T (Trotskyist) word as an insult. It really makes you guys look bad, just saying.:thumbdown:

I didn't mean it as an insult. I'm basing it on historical fact.

Trotskyists made anti-USSR propaganda, therefore I suggested it could be propaganda made by a Trotskyist.

Please do us all a favour and stop assuming the worst all the time.

[scarletghoul]

So what if its true; what is wrong with that ?!? I often thank comrade Stalin for my happy life.

[CommieTroll]

sending monks, priests and imams to the Gulags merely for being religious functionaries

The Russian Orthodox Church was more than a religious institution in Tsarist Russia they held a lot of political power and a lot of wealth so they were naturally strongly opposed to the Bolsheviks.

[Commissar Rykov]

The Russian Orthodox Church was more than a religious institution in Tsarist Russia they held a lot of political power and a lot of wealth so they were naturally strongly opposed to the Bolsheviks.
Indeed, the Russian Orthodox Church was actually more of a political arm than anything else since they were heavily influential in Russification and pogroms for Jews and suppression of other religious groups. The ROC was nothing more than an extension of the Bourgeoisie and Aristocracy under the guise of a Church.

[Rafiq]

Think about this long and hard, it's a History book, approved by the United States government, that of which has a long and nasty history in relation to the USSR and Stalin.

So, do you actually think they would try to make Stalin not look bad? Of course kids didn't do that every fucking morning, and how stupid, Stalin itself means "Man of Steel" so a Metal called Stalinite might not even have anything to do with him.

No, 8 million were not killed.

But if it helps, Stalin was a Bourgeois representative who worked against the interests of the Russian proletariat.

[Rafiq]

or sending monks, priests and imams to the Gulags

:confused: So what's the problem, then? :confused:

I don't know any priests, but I can easily say 70% of Imams belong in Gulags, and that's a generous estimate.

[Commissar Rykov]

:confused: So what's the problem, then? :confused:

I don't know any priests, but I can easily say 70% of Imams belong in Gulags, and that's a generous estimate.
I think the same could be said for most Clergy. You have some really good ones who try to fix things then you have those who fuckin' power trip with their so called "line with God."

[Nox]

:confused: So what's the problem, then? :confused:

I don't know any priests, but I can easily say 70% of Imams belong in Gulags, and that's a generous estimate.

To be honest, I'd just throw all priests/monks/preachers/imams/sheikhs/rabbis/etc in the Gulag.

[Rooster]

Could be worse. You could be reading the History of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (Bolsheviks) Short Course (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1939/x01/index.htm).

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

The Russian Orthodox Church was more than a religious institution in Tsarist Russia they held a lot of political power and a lot of wealth so they were naturally strongly opposed to the Bolsheviks.

This is totally true and the power of the church needed to be broken. But the Russian Orthodox Church the only religious institution in Russia, it was merely the one which was politically ascendent. There were Muslims, Protestants, Catholics, Buddhists and Shamanists in Soviet-era Russia too.


:confused: So what's the problem, then? :confused:

I don't know any priests, but I can easily say 70% of Imams belong in Gulags, and that's a generous estimate.

If an Imam deserves to go for prison, it should be for actual crimes he committed and which can be proved in an impartial court of law, not for some imaginary crime of wearing robes and believing in old theologies. Nor is the Stalinist model of forced labor camp with all of its excesses a particularly good approach to problems of justice regardless of the crime. The truth is that the USSR included many communities at varying stages of development and while there were many reactionary religious figures who deserved long prison sentences, the rush to impose secularism and atheism on the entire population at gunpoint created a lot of resentment towards the Soviet experiment. Even if you oppose religion as an institution there were better ways to go about secularizing the USSR.

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

so, all i see is opinion. are their any primary sources for that? and really, we have all heard the pro and con stalinist arguments. no need for a tendency war here.

but keep going if you want, im enjoying reading it

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Trotskyists made anti-USSR propaganda, therefore I suggested it could be propaganda made by a Trotskyist.

Please do us all a favour and stop assuming the worst all the time.

Actually Trotskyists defended the USSR from both right wing attacks and fake-socialist bureaucrats. It was the Stalinist bureaucracy who insidiously set the USSR up for dismantlement by betraying the guiding principles of the October Revolution: internationalism and proletarian democracy.

Leon Trotsky, In Defense of Marxism. "Again and Once More Again on the Nature of the USSR." (http://marxists.architexturez.net/archive/trotsky/idom/dm/04-again.htm)


“Unconditional Defense of the USSR”

What does “unconditional” defense of the USSR mean? It means that we do not lay any conditions upon the bureaucracy. It means that independently of the motive and causes of the war we defend the social basis of the USSR, if it is menaced by danger on the part of imperialism.


Leon Trotsky. The Defense of the Soviet Union and the Opposition (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1929/09/fi-b.htm).


In the struggle against Stalinist bureaucratism, which expresses and facilitates the pressure of enemy classes, the Russian Opposition demands democracy in the party, the trade unions and the Soviets on a proletarian basis. It implacably exposes the revolting falsification of democracy which under the label of “self-criticism” is corroding and decomposing the very foundations of the revolutionary consciousness of the proletarian vanguard. But for the Opposition the struggle for party democracy has meaning only on the basis of the recognition of the dictatorship of the proletariat. It would be Quixotic, not to say idiotic, to fight for democracy in a party which is realizing the rule of a class hostile to us. In such a case, one could not speak of a class democracy in the party and in the Soviets, but of “general” (that is, bourgeois) democracy in the country – against the ruling party and its dictatorship. The Mensheviks have more than once accused the Opposition of “not going far enough” because it does not demand democracy in the country. But the Mensheviks and we stand on the opposite sides of the barricade, and at the present time – in view of the Thermidorian danger – more irreconcilably and hostilely than ever before. We are fighting for proletarian democracy precisely in order to shield the country of the October Revolution from the “liberties” of bourgeois democracy, that is, from capitalism.
To be honest, I'd just throw all priests/monks/preachers/imams/sheikhs/rabbis/etc in the Gulag.

Good luck making a revolution with your army of Bill Maher-style 'militant atheists.' :lol:

Would you also have thrown Martin Luther King Jr., Oscar Romero, Hélder Câmara in the Gulag?

John Brown the abolitionist hoped to become a minister and was deeply religious.

Oh, and Stalin went to seminary. Maybe that is one wannabe preacher who ought to have been tossed in the Gulag.

[Comrade_Stalin]

All of these details seem to be rather standard trappings of a cult of personality, I wouldn't really bring them under too much scrutiny.

A lot of places were re-named after Lenin, but it does not mean that he was settign up a cult of personality

[Comrade_Stalin]

Good luck making a revolution with your army of Bill Maher-style 'militant atheists.' :lol:

Would you also have thrown Martin Luther King Jr., Oscar Romero, Hélder Câmara in the Gulag?

John Brown the abolitionist hoped to become a minister and was deeply religious.

Oh, and Stalin went to seminary. Maybe that is one wannabe preacher who ought to have been tossed in the Gulag.

:cursing: Well we have done more with our "army of Bill Maher-style 'militant atheists.'" then any of you have do. Martin Luther King Jr asked for peace, and was shot just for asking for rights for the poor. It is because of the death of these people who ask for peaceful change that we ask for the army of militant atheist. No we Stalinist would not thrown Martin Luther King Jr., Oscar Romero, Hélder Câmara in the Gulag. We ask to thrown right wing supporters in there, like the wannabe preacher , that you clame Stalin supported.

[Delenda Carthago]

Scratching your fuckin ear is more productive than threads like this. Its SO easy to understand what happened in USSR if you just read a lil bit about it from the source and not the words of capitalists and this dude with the glasses that proposed that gulags should be run by the army and that Russia should invade Germany if the second didnt make him the favorite to revolt when he felt like.

[Rooster]

A lot of places were re-named after Lenin, but it does not mean that he was settign up a cult of personality

Are you saying that there was no personality cult based around Lenin?

[Nox]

Good luck making a revolution with your army of Bill Maher-style 'militant atheists.' :lol:

Would you also have thrown Martin Luther King Jr., Oscar Romero, Hélder Câmara in the Gulag?

John Brown the abolitionist hoped to become a minister and was deeply religious.

Oh, and Stalin went to seminary. Maybe that is one wannabe preacher who ought to have been tossed in the Gulag.

I'll just write your name on my list of people to never make a sarcastic comment around. Some people are better at picking it up than others ¬.¬

[DarkPast]

A lot of places were re-named after Lenin, but it does not mean that he was settign up a cult of personality

Ah, but there's a difference: the places named after Lenin were so named after his death. Likewise, Lenin forbid statues of the Bolshevik leaders to be built (the only statues in the entire country was a pair of statues of Marx and Engels in Petrograd).

Stalin, however, set into motion a cult-like veneration of Lenin (casting him as some sort of Jesus figure), put statues and pictures of himself everywhere, and even introduced an anthem in which he glorifies himself as a great leader!

[eyeheartlenin]

In response to rooster, there is a story about Lenin, when he was in power: he went into a meeting, only to find that people there were making speeches praising him. Lenin then fled the meeting and spent time using a phone, trying to find out when the speeches were finished, since he was unwilling to attend while people were praising him. I am sorry that I cannot locate the account of this that I read earlier, to be able to give a reference, but I am not making it up.

The distinction made by DarkPast is an important one. An earlier version of the Soviet national anthem reportedly mentioned Stalin and was replaced after Stalin's demise.

[Invader Zim]

But "only" 680,000 people were killed during the Great Purge according to official Soviet documents.

Which are famously inaccurate and incomplete.

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

Which are famously inaccurate and incomplete.
im curious, but what proof do you have? really, i would like to know

anyway, can anyone find a primary source?

[Invader Zim]

im curious, but what proof do you have? really, i would like to know

anyway, can anyone find a primary source?


but what proof do you have?

The last 30 years of soviet historiography, which has been riddled with endless argument about the validity of the data and the vast methodological chasms inherent in any study that tries to employ them.

To quote Rosefielde on one of vast litenue of incendiary problems in the oceanic minefield that is the surviving archival evidence:

"For example, the Gulag camp and colony population shown in NKVD records reported by Getty, Ritterspom and Zemskov on December 3 1, 1936 is less than half the figure given by the NKVD to the Census Board in 1937."

Steven Rosefielde, 'Documented Homicides and Excess Deaths: New Insights into the Scale Killing in the USSR During the 1930s', Communist and Post-Communist Studies, Vol. 30, No. 3 (1997) p. 322.

In the same article Rosefielde notes "executions and deaths in Gulag camps 1937-1939 can be legitimately estimated between 0.8 and 3.6 million." (p. 322) Which to my mind entirely sums up the entire debate. The paramaters of the figure highly limited, deaths during one relatively small period and examining one national institution of repression. And still the top estimate is 450% higher than the base estimate. And that is the estimate for just two, admittedly extreme, years. But extrapolate that level of uncertainty, emerging directly from the available archival material, across Stalin's entire regime.

Then consider one of the litenue of other glaring problems facing historians trying to address this question. For example, when Getty, etc., compiled the statistics of those released from the Gulag system back in 1993, what they failed to point out is that it was camp policy to release prisoners were they became to ill, weak or malnourished to continue to work because they became a drain on the camp's resources. As a result the number of reported releases and deaths in the camps are rendered effectively meaningless, because it is impossible to know the proportion of prisoners released to die.

So not only do the archival sources provide conflicting data on the extent of the Gulag system's numbers - thus rendering them all highly suspect (if they were wrong to the point of fiction in one set who is to say that any of it is trustworthy?) - but those numbers they do provide don't actually tell you true death statistics.

Trying to pretend that the available archival data places the numbers question to rest is nothing but wishful thinking by people who haven't read (or if they have, understood) the historiography. The question is just unaswerable, and after seventy years or so (the last thirty of them with increasing degrees of archival access), I fail to see why they are still trying. Talk about flogging a dead horse.

John Keep, to my mind, summed up the entire problem when he noted that "we need to be prudent when using these official sources which, far from being the last word on the subject, are probably about as reliable as the average mafioso's tax return."

Keep, 'Wheatcroft and Stalin's Victims: Comments', Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 51, No. 6 (Sep., 1999), p. 1091.


can anyone find a primary source?

Of course. Assuming you can read the relevent languages, visit the relevent archives and know the right places to look.

This also raises the question of what constitutes a primary source. According to getty, etc., oral testimony, memoir and memory are not 'proper sources', which in my view discredits his entire enterprise. You can't just dismiss a source of information because you don't like the conclusions it necessarily demands you consider. The same goes for Conquest, but in the other direction, who refuses to seriously adjust his estimates despite the fact that archival data seriously calls into question the legitimacy of the numbers provided by his sources.

[W1N5T0N]

:ohmy:

...and Marx rotated in his grave.

[ZeroNowhere]

I wouldn't be too surprised. Have you seen much Soviet propaganda lately?


:cursing: Well we have done more with our "army of Bill Maher-style 'militant atheists.'" then any of you have do.
No, you have not. You are meaningless grains of sand in an endless ocean, just like we are.

[o well this is ok I guess]

Oh no, Stalinite! Capitalism's greatest weakness!

[W1N5T0N]

Stalinism is every cappies good argument AGAINST communism.

[tir1944]

If your sworn enemy is slandering and attacking you every day,be sure that you're going in the right direction.:D

[Misanthrope]

Even if it's true..

American children stand up every morning and pledge their loyalty to the flag of the united states...

[Rooster]

In response to rooster, there is a story about Lenin, when he was in power: he went into a meeting, only to find that people there were making speeches praising him. Lenin then fled the meeting and spent time using a phone, trying to find out when the speeches were finished, since he was unwilling to attend while people were praising him. I am sorry that I cannot locate the account of this that I read earlier, to be able to give a reference, but I am not making it up.

I'm talking about the cult of personality that built up around Stalin in connection with Lenin (specifically after Lenin's death a la embalming and public display, huge statues, etc). You just need to read any of the propaganda regarding Lenin by Stalin to see the extent of it (like the short course I already mentioned). The idea that kids would stand up in class and chant that fits the ideological cult that was created.

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

Fundamental or original document relating to a particular subject; first hand; written by a witness or researcher at the time of an event or discovery has different meaning in different disciplines

not things from 1997.:cursing:

anyway, are their any primary sources for both the "stand up in class and say 'thank comrade stalin'" and the killings

[Invader Zim]

not things from 1997.:cursing:

anyway, are their any primary sources for both the "stand up in class and say 'thank comrade stalin'" and the killings

Do you even grasp the points I was making? Apparently not. You asked me for proof that the old Soviet archives are famously inaccurate and incomplete. I provided you with examples and testimony from the heart of the professional historical discourse on the matter of these sources.

As for posting a 'primary source' what exactly do you want? Archival references? Uploaded images of original documents? Memoir accounts? Translated printed texts?

How many people here do you suppose have direct personal access to the archives in Russia? Do you actually have any idea what you are asking or are you just yet another Stalinoid troll?

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

Do you even grasp the points I was making? Apparently not. You asked me for proof that the old Soviet archives are famously inaccurate and incomplete. I provided you with examples and testimony from the heart of the professional historical discourse on the matter of these sources.

As for posting a 'primary source' what exactly do you want? Archival references? Uploaded images of original documents? Memoir accounts? Translated printed texts?

How many people here do you suppose have direct personal access to the archives in Russia? Do you actually have any idea what you are asking or are you just yet another Stalinoid troll?

i doubt that stalin actually killed that much. yes i am a stalinoid troll. now. back to the original question, the primary sources will work.

[Invader Zim]

i doubt that stalin actually killed that much. yes i am a stalinoid troll. now. back to the original question, the primary sources will work.


Primary sources to address a historiographical question?

What precisely is it you are asking. You have confused yourself.

[ColonelCossack]

how is it anti-communist to be anti-war?


Class War!
:hammersickle::che::castro::marx::star2::star3: :cubaflag: :engles: :hammersickle:

[freenation26]

in my history book, it is very right propoganda. but i do want to see the credibilty of one thing, this excerpt:

im really skeptical of this. the same book also states between 8 million to 13 million deaths happend in the great purge. even though le livre noir du communisme states that their where only 670.000 killed

Oh wow, you have the exact same history book as I do.

Concerning the question though, no. Stalin never encouraged a cult of personality around him, and he repeatedly denounced it.

[Rafiq]

Oh wow, you have the exact same history book as I do.

Concerning the question though, no. Stalin never encouraged a cult of personality around him, and he repeatedly denounced it.

Doesn't matter, happened anyway.

[freenation26]

Doesn't matter, happened anyway.

Hm, well I thought it would matter that Stalin didn't support his cult of personality, considering OP asked about the validity of a quote claiming Stalin himself created a cult of personality.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Stalin created a cult of personality around Lenin.

What did he think would happen next?:rolleyes: