Dutch transgender laws will perhaps change

[PhoenixAsh]

Earlier this week Human Rights Watch criticised the Dutch laws regarding changing the sex on your birth certificate. Dutch law requires a sex change operation to be able to change the sex on your birthcertificate and requires sterilisation.

A new law proposal by the ministry of Justice which was send for advice last wednesday this will all change. If the proposal passes a sex change operation will no longer be required and neither will sterilisation be required.

If the proposal passes somebody can change his sex on their birthcertificate when a judge and an expert have established that the feeling of being transgender are permanent.

This will also have consequences for the sex indication on many other documents...like passports, certificates, degrees atec.

The law has not passed yet...but it is a step in the good direction.

[Smyg]

The Swedish government are most likely about to remove the sterilisation as well.

[PhoenixAsh]

Those demands require people to undergo medical treatment against their will. It makes no sense whatsoever to require transgender people to be sterilised.

A huge amount of people were completely unaware of this provision in the law. Granted they were fuck all interested in transgender issues in the first place...but a lot of people were today confronted with this news item. Aside from the "normal" discriminatory reactions to transgender issues there is quite a lot of disgust that we had such laws too.

This proposal is a step in the right direction. And luckily the Transgender Organisation is asked for its official opinion on the proposal.

It will not fix societial discrimination but it may just prevent people from needless suffering when it comes to getting the right identity on their official documents.

I have some doubts regarding this screening by a judge and an expert though...

[Smyg]

Indeed, it just... doesn't make any sense. I was shocked when I found out that so called 'progressive' Sweden still demanded it...

It reeks of the fascist forced sterilisations of the mentally, physically or socially challenged, "promiscuous" women, the Sami, the Romani and many others decades ago... forced sterilisation, apparently not counting the transgendered, wasn't banned in Sweden until 1975.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

A step in the right direction, hopefully transgender people in Sweden enjoy a better standard of living after this is all decided.

Very disgusting that they required sterilization....hard to believe that such blatant hetero-supremacy still occurred in such a manner.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Sterilization? How horrifyingly backwards.

[Queercommie Girl]

On the other hand, there is nothing wrong either if a person chooses to "go all the way" regarding sex change, even if it means he or she can no longer naturally reproduce. To be able to reproduce isn't what defines us as "human".

[阿部高和]

Sterilization? How horrifyingly backwards.

I imagine that is so the change is permanent and also to deter people from abusing the system.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I imagine that is so the change is permanent and also to deter people from abusing the system.
Mandatory sterilization is a gross violation of the right to control one's body and reproductive choices.

[阿部高和]

Mandatory sterilization is a gross violation of the right to control one's body and reproductive choices.

But you agree something must be done to prevent frivolous abuse of the system, do you not? what is the alternative from preventing people public coffers, which could potentially lead to corruption? I'm not saying this is the way by any means but something must be done.

[Thirsty Crow]

But you agree something must be done to prevent frivolous abuse of the system, do you not? what is the alternative from preventing people public coffers, which could potentially lead to corruption? I'm not saying this is the way by any means but something must be done.
Please, just tell me how a "system" (it's precious also to hear communists advocating prevention of abuse hurled upon the "system") could be abused in this case? Imagine the horror of countless crossdressers demanding identity change on their documents. Boy, that would stretch the civil service, imagine, the state might be forced to employ more people :scared:

And how is mandatory "screening" performed by a judge and an expert not an bulwark against the horror of cheating the system?

[jake williams]

But you agree something must be done to prevent frivolous abuse of the system, do you not?
What would constitute "frivolous abuse of the system", and who cares? We're not talking about people being able to embezzle millions of dollars - we're talking about people having the gender they're comfortable with on their passport. Who cares?

[Smyg]

Oh noes, can't let people be comfortable with what they are, they might steal our money...!

[阿部高和]

Oh noes, can't let people be comfortable with what they are, they might steal our money...!

When only so much is allocated to public services and most of Europe facing a budget crisis, you bet your damned ass people can't be stealing money or taking more than what they need. Everyone needs to share.


we're talking about people having the gender they're comfortable with on their passport. Who cares?

People who are transexual or transgender are usually solid in their identities, so I'm quite sure most of them in the Netherlands, where people are usually quite reasonable, would have no problem with this to limit corruption and waste of public funds.

Being a Communist doesn't mean you can't be frugal.

[Искра]

When only so much is allocated to public services and most of Europe facing a budget crisis, you bet your damned ass people can't be stealing money or taking more than what they need. Everyone needs to share.
Angela is that you?


corruption and waste of public funds.
You are breaking my heart....


Being a Communist doesn't mean you can't be frugal
It means that you are for total destruction of current capitalist system and that you whole your body and mind into it trought pariticpation in revolutionary Party. It also means that you don't care about peti-burgeouisie screams for reforming capitalism into "better society", but you are aware that you have to destroy it in order to end class system of exploatation.

[Smyg]

When only so much is allocated to public services and most of Europe facing a budget crisis, you bet your damned ass people can't be stealing money or taking more than what they need. Everyone needs to share.

How about we cut all public healthcare, then? Sounds like a great idea to save money. How about a US-style system, hm?

[Thirsty Crow]

When only so much is allocated to public services and most of Europe facing a budget crisis, you bet your damned ass people can't be stealing money or taking more than what they need. Everyone needs to share.

Who would take more than what they need? Who would steal and from whom and just how? Would transgendered people who do not want to undergo sterilization somehow steal from someone by insisting on the possibility of identity change on documents without it (the sterilization)?

You're making no sense whatsoever.
Either that or it's time to go to bed.
Actually, it is, bye

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

But you agree something must be done to prevent frivolous abuse of the system, do you not?
I fail to see how it could be abused.

[eyeheartlenin]

Does the change in the Netherlands mean that someone with male sexual equipment can say, "I now identify as woman," and that statement is then reflected on the person's birth certificate, without further ado? Just trying to understand exactly what is happening.

[Thirsty Crow]

Does the change in the Netherlands mean that someone with male sexual equipment can say, "I now identify as woman," and that statement is then reflected on the person's birth certificate, without further ado? Just trying to understand exactly what is happening.
No, they can't.
Go all the way up to the beginning of the thread: there you'll see that only transgedenred people might do so - which means that they have been "certified" (fuck, that sounds AWFUL :blink:), or rather that the medical and psychological professions have confirmed that they are indeed transgendered, and that the official court has recognized this.

[阿部高和]

How about we cut all public healthcare, then? Sounds like a great idea to save money. How about a US-style system, hm?

you're an idiot, sarcasm or not.

[Smyg]

Hurr hurr.

[leemadison11]

Shouldn't this law be for the person who is being born, i was hoping for them to have a right to choose or not. This doesn't make any sense at all to me.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Shouldn't this law be for the person who is being born, i was hoping for them to have a right to choose or not.
Um, what? I'm not following what you mean.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Does the change in the Netherlands mean that someone with male sexual equipment can say, "I now identify as woman," and that statement is then reflected on the person's birth certificate, without further ado? Just trying to understand exactly what is happening.
First off, we need to get beyond this stupid infantile notion that penis = man and vagina = woman. It is not very becoming of anyone.
Second off if someone believes that there are only two genders (or two sexes for that matter) they are clearly an idiot and are very backwards minded. There are people who are third gender. Also, as far as biological sex There are intersexed folks are you going to disregard a portion of the population just because they are a minority groups?
Third, there is a process of diagnosis which you could learn if you read the Harry Benjamen Society Standards Of Care (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standards_of_care_for_gender_identity_disorders).

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Third, there is a process of diagnosis which you could learn if you read the Harry Benjamen Society
Also known as gatekeepers who control transpeople's bodies.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Also known as gatekeepers who control transpeople's bodies.
No shit I know this from personal experience. The SOC have dictated my treatment.