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View Full Version : What the Country Needs Is a New New Deal (ELR not FDR)



Die Neue Zeit
14th September 2011, 07:12
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/with_300_billion_the_president_can_reduce_unemploy ment_to_zero_20110908/



By L. Randall Wray and Stephanie Kelton

On Thursday night Barack Obama will deliver his highly anticipated jobs speech. At this point, only those closest to the president know exactly how he intends to help spur the economy and create jobs, but reports suggest that he is mulling a $300 billion jobs package that includes more of the same—a one-year extension of the payroll tax cut, a continuation of unemployment benefits, some additional spending on infrastructure and tax incentives to encourage businesses to hire and invest in new capital. Too little of what will work and too much of what won’t for an economy that’s teetering on the brink of a double-dip recession and a president who is running out of time to deliver jobs.

There’s little doubt that extending unemployment benefits will help those who are struggling to find work. But continuing the payments we’re already making doesn’t add a single dollar of new demand to the economy. Nor does extending the payroll tax cut, which simply allows workers to keep the extra 2 percent they’ve already been getting. There will be no boost in consumer spending from these measures, although they account for more than half of the $300 billion plan the president is said to be considering. For the same price tag, the president could do something truly different—he could eliminate unemployment altogether.

The job market is much worse than the official numbers suggest. Officially, we’ve got 14 million unemployed Americans looking for jobs—about four job seekers for every job vacancy. But those 14 million Americans are also competing with 8.8 million part-time workers who are hoping to land a full-time job. Since the recession began, employers have cut so many hours from the workweek that it is equivalent to the loss of a million more jobs. Add to that the roughly 2.6 million people who gave up looking for a job, and you’ve got about 25 million people needing more work and an economy that is creating no new jobs.

Whatever the president promises, it is certain to be too little, too late. Indeed, as Eric Tymoigne has shown, by some measures job performance since the start of the “recovery” has been even worse than during the Great Depression. At the rate we’re going, it will take nine years to return to the pre-recession employment level; by contrast, in the 1930s the jobs lost in the aftermath of the Great Crash had been fully restored within seven years. The difference was the New Deal, which created jobs for 13 million Americans. President Obama has never displayed any Rooseveltian sense of purpose and he will not propose any comprehensive job creation programs like the New Deal’s WPA and the CCC.

The problem is that the president believes we can cure our jobless problem by providing the proper incentives to the business community. And here he is committing one of the few big policy blunders from Lyndon Johnson’s War on Poverty. Like Johnson, who focused on retraining the unemployed for jobs that did not exist, Obama has focused on incentivizing the businesses community to hire workers to produce for customers that do not exist. Time and again, Obama has shown that he will only tinker around the edges, relying on the same tired supply-side initiatives that will not work: more incentives to build business confidence, subsidies to reduce labor costs and to promote exports, and maybe even tax cuts to please Republicans. He told a Labor Day crowd in Detroit that he wants to match the more than 1 million construction workers with an infrastructure-related rebuilding program to improve the nation’s roads and bridges. That is an improvement over his efforts to date, but it falls far short of the 20-plus million jobs we need.

[DNZ's Note: I should point out that the policy first proposed by Hyman Minsky is, despite the denial of the authors, also supply-side. It is merely supply-side on the basis of labour, not capital.] (http://www.revleft.com/vb/supply-side-political-t152098/index.html)

For more than two years, we’ve listened to policy wonks weighing in on the supposed recovery, reading great importance into every tiny click of the unemployment rate, fluctuation of retail sales data, rise or fall of the Dow, and—especially—the latest measure of business confidence and expectations. Economists and policymakers alike appear to believe that if we can only improve the outlook of our entrepreneurs, they will suddenly begin hiring. All the nation needs is a bit of Prozac slipped into the martinis of the captains of industry to turn this ship around. And the Republicans warn of the depressing effects of Obamacare, Dodd-Frank regulations and EPA restrictions that damage the sentiments on Wall Street.

The truth is simple and contrary to these views. Business will not hire more workers until it has more sales. Consumers will not spend more until they’ve got more jobs. A private-sector recovery requires 300,000 new jobs every month. But the private sector doesn’t need 300,000 new workers per month to meet prospective sales.

The new jobs can only come from the federal government—the only economic entity that can afford to hire. Obama’s 1 million infrastructure jobs is a nice down payment, but it is only three month’s worth. New workers will create the sales that firms need to justify new hiring. Still, we must think bigger if we are to create 20 million jobs.

In his last State of the Union address, President Obama eloquently summed up the longer-term challenges we face. In many ways, they are similar to those that President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s America dealt with: a nation ill-prepared for the century in which it found itself, a nation that was “ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.” Roosevelt’s was a nation with 19th century transportation, education and health care. The New Deal, World War II and President Johnson’s extremely successful Great Society programs transformed America. But America has fallen into disrepair, and again finds itself unprepared for the new century. A new New Deal is needed, with a comprehensive jobs program to again transform America.

When it comes to the health and welfare of a nation, there is no economic policy that is more important than job creation. And yet decades of experience, in nations across the globe, provide ample evidence that while the private sector plays an important role, it cannot by itself provide employment for all who want to work.

There is a way to do that: The government could serve as the “employer of last resort” under a job guarantee program modeled on the WPA (the Works Progress Administration, in existence from 1935 to 1943 after being renamed the Work Projects Administration in 1939) and the CCC (Civilian Conservation Corps, 1933-1942). The program would offer a job to any American who was ready and willing to work at the federal minimum wage, plus legislated benefits. No time limits. No means testing. No minimum education or skill requirements.

The program would operate like a buffer stock, absorbing and releasing workers during the economy’s natural boom-and-bust cycles. In a boom, employers would recruit workers out of the program; in a slump the safety net would allow those who had lost their jobs to continue to work to preserve good habits, making them easier to re-employ when activity picked up. The program would also take those whose education, training or job experience was initially inadequate to obtain work outside the program, enhancing their employability through on-the-job training. Work records would be maintained for all program participants and would be available for potential employers. Unemployment offices could be converted to employment offices, to match workers with jobs in the program, and to help private and public employers recruit workers.

Funding for the job guarantee program must come from the federal government—and the wage should be periodically adjusted to reflect changes in the cost of living and to allow workers to share in rising national productivity so that real living standards would rise—but the administration and operation of the program should be decentralized to the state and local level. Registered not-for-profit organizations could propose projects for approval by responsible offices designated within each of the states and U.S. territories as well as the District of Columbia. Then the proposals should be submitted to the federal office for final approval and funding. To ensure transparency and accountability, the Labor Department should maintain a website providing details on all projects submitted, all projects approved and all projects started.

To avoid simple “make-work” employment, project proposals could be evaluated on the following criteria: (a) value to the community; (b) value to the participants; (c) likelihood of successful implementation of project; (d) contribution to preparing workers for employment outside the program.

The program would take workers as they were and where they were, with jobs designed so that they could be performed by workers with the education and training they already had, but it would strive to improve the education and skills of all workers as they participated in the program. Proposals would come from every community in America, to employ workers in every community. Project proposals should include provisions for part-time work and other flexible arrangements for workers who need them, including but not restricted to flexible arrangements for parents of young children.

In truth, the $300 billion the president might propose Thursday is more than enough to jump-start our economy if it is really targeted to job creation. We can estimate the total program cost at $20,000 per worker, times 15 million workers. That adds up to a $300 billion gross cost, less savings on unemployment compensation (roughly $150 billion), welfare and food stamps, as well as the social cost of depression, divorce, abuse and crime. A direct job creation program modeled on the New Deal’s WPA could create 15 million jobs for less than $300 billion net spending, while also providing the infrastructure and public services required to bring our nation into the 21st century.

And because the job guarantee is designed not to compete with other employment options, the program would not result in the bidding up of wages (and prices) as workers were absorbed into the buffer stock. This is because the job guarantee program would hire only those that the market was not yet ready to employ. Because the program would not intensity competition for workers, it would not lead to wage-push inflation. It would, however, help to stabilize output and employment by establishing a floor on wages.

The program should be permanent, offering a good job at a basic wage to anyone who wants to work. With recovery, the number of jobs required in the program would quickly shrink, as the private sector would ramp up hiring as sales to consumers rise.

By keeping the program in place even once the economy recovered, we’d ensure continuous full employment, with the job program acting as a “buffer stock” that absorbed workers laid off when the private sector contracted and as an employment recruitment pool when private sector hiring resumed. In this way, full employment is maintained through the thick and thin of the business cycle.

Only jobs will create the infrastructure we need to compete in the 21st century. Further, Americans have never embraced welfare. For better or worse, our nation has always preferred a more libertarian path: self-help, personal responsibility, individual initiative. As a result, our welfare programs have always been stingy, temporary and purposely demeaning. They are not designed to reduce insecurity—while they relieve the worst of the suffering, those receiving handouts are supposed to quickly get back into the workforce, to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. But they cannot do that when the nation is 20 million jobs short.

And we cannot restore the security needed to turn around expectations, to get the sales the private sector needs, with anything less than a nationwide universal jobs program.

The $300 billion investment in a direct jobs program would be the best way to prove that President Obama is committed to resolving the jobs crisis.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
14th September 2011, 08:17
No, what all countries suffering with the crisis need is worker-led revolution.

You cannot fix Capitalism if you are a Socialist.

Zav
14th September 2011, 08:23
A new jobs package will only treat the symptoms of Capitalism and the State. They can surely be buffed and polished and given new paint, but they're still rotten to the core.

¿Que?
14th September 2011, 09:20
We will surely have to ask ourselves, even after the revolution, what kind of society we want to live in, and this involves, as Marx suggests, understanding different aspects of labor.

Die Neue Zeit
14th September 2011, 14:20
No, what all countries suffering with the crisis need is worker-led revolution.

You cannot fix Capitalism if you are a Socialist.

I posted this article not because of its political bias, but because of the specific policy proposal to end structural and cyclical unemployment, which I have wrote about on this very board months ago.


A new jobs package will only treat the symptoms of Capitalism and the State. They can surely be buffed and polished and given new paint, but they're still rotten to the core.

This isn't the typical "jobs package."

malcom
16th September 2011, 05:03
Is there any difference between minimum wage and unemployed? Nobody can live off of minimum wage.

malcom
16th September 2011, 05:10
Since you can't raise minimum wage that much (it would make labor too expensive for some businesses and create more unemployment), the solution is to have a minimum wage job guaranteed to all but to use taxes to redistribute income so that a minimum wage job plus the dividend you get through tax redistribution would be plenty for people to live a comfortable lifestyle.

This is what is proposed at the site DemandTheGoodLife.com

Die Neue Zeit
16th September 2011, 05:12
Minsky's wage proposal was at the level of a living wage, not of today's paltry "minimum"/subsistence wage standards. The "dividend" would not be necessary because the progressive taxation would feed directly into the living wages. Meanwhile, the ELR wages would become the effective minimum wage:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/public-employer-last-t124658/index.html

Vladimir Innit Lenin
16th September 2011, 11:05
You're both simply discussing Social Democracy.

What we need is to abolish federal taxes (as far as is possible, the state will obviously need a small amount of money to continue running until we decide to abolish it). It is ridiculous that a worker in Sunderland has to pay the same amount of income tax to the government as a worker in London, the former knowing full well that they will never get half the services and benefits back that the latter will. Regional or even local taxation must be utilised in order to provide flexibility: regional and local workers' councils can decide what services are needed, in a democratic, accountable way, as opposed to handing our money over the the state bureaucrats to waste as they wish.

Thus, the effect of income upon quality of life, services available etc. will in fact be lessened and progress towards equality realised. One could then implement a living wage policy into natinoal law (living wage = minimum wage, then) and use the GDRs idea of a national social fund, either to direct funds to the poorest people/areas for subsidies gym memberships, holidays, cars or bills, or in a demarchic fashion to award these subsidies randomly each period (1 month, 6 months, 1 year...whatever).

In effect, the state will then lose its power over taxation, and its only function (aside from small amounts of necessary bureaucracy, defence and foreign representation) would be to manage a social fund that moves the availability of luxuries towards the working class. Undoubtedly, this is a function that could be eventually assumed by regional workers' councils.

What I am doing, DNZ, is proposing a blueprint for the state to actually wither away. What you were doing, was proposing admirably redistributive policies, but ones which unfortunately contain no whiff of revolution nor anti-statist thought.

Die Neue Zeit
17th September 2011, 17:59
One particular post was posted in the Theory thread on nationalization that is more pertinent here:


You're talking in degrees, not in terms of a revolutionary cut-off.

Post-Keynesians achieve (in theory, it's unlikely that they'd achieve actual zero, so you're stuck with the same problem, really) zero employment in theory whilst Keynesianism achieves 3% unemployment in theory. There's little to suggest that either were ever going to stick to unemployment targets.

Marx said of the capitalism of his day that structural and cyclical unemployment were an inherent problem. The Post-Keynesian solution leaves only frictional unemployment.


There will always, within the framework of such a managed economy, be those who are under-employed

Actually, the Post-Keynesian school has a more refined view of unemployment than the Bastard Keynesians. You should re-read the paragraph above that starts with "The job market is much worse than the official numbers suggest." Also, the section containing "No minimum education or skill requirements" is useful.


I would describe post-Keynesianism and Keynesianism more as political frameworks than sound economic frameworks, the latter they cannot be because, simply, their flawed economics has been exposed time and again.

Post-Keynesian economics has yet to be popularized sufficiently for its economics to be exposed. In terms of radical, structural, pro-labour reform, this school is one of only a handful of non-Marxist ones that should be taken seriously.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
17th September 2011, 20:29
I ask again, why are you taking such time to argue for the implementation of policies that you admit are un-Marxist reforms?

Die Neue Zeit
17th September 2011, 23:32
So you're saying there are such things as "Marxist reforms"? :confused:

I'm going by the Marxist framework of a minimum-maximum program.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
19th September 2011, 23:57
Can you not just answer my question instead of avoiding it via (inaccurate, btw) semantics?

Vladimir Innit Lenin
20th September 2011, 00:01
The concept of the minimum programme is outdated and theoretically wrong these days.

When it was first drawn up, working class people even in the developed world lived in absolutely abhorrent conditions. Though the working class in places like the UK, Germany etc. are still dicked on, they have already achieved many important reforms, rendering the minimum programme as something of an irrelevance these days, and not only that, but advocating the minimum programme so strongly is indicative of your willingness to participate in bourgeois elections when we should be out there showing why Marx was right about Capitalism actually collapsing.

But we know that you're not that bothered about Capitalism collapsing, you just want to take power, hire some bureaucrats, centralise and then implement some Labourite reforms, quote a bit of Cockshott and Lih as gospel and then proclaim Socialism.:rolleyes:

Die Neue Zeit
20th September 2011, 02:14
The concept of the minimum programme is outdated and theoretically wrong these days.

The Orthodox and especially the Marx-Engels minimum program is quite contemporaneous. The Marx-Engels minimum program is nothing else but the DOTP (not "socialism" or beyond).


When it was first drawn up, working class people even in the developed world lived in absolutely abhorrent conditions. Though the working class in places like the UK, Germany etc. are still dicked on, they have already achieved many important reforms

The kind of policies I've shed light on put into question the extent of structural, radical, pro-labour reform that has been implemented historically. Unemployment insurance and scattered public works programs pale and have paled in comparison to systemic heavy-industrial public works back in the day and ELR today.


but advocating the minimum programme so strongly is indicative of your willingness to participate in bourgeois elections when we should be out there showing why Marx was right about Capitalism actually collapsing.

I don't know why you've ignored mass spoilage and mass civil disobedience campaigns. Again, MLK Jr. is a role model.

RED DAVE
20th September 2011, 04:08
I don't know why you've ignored mass spoilage and mass civil disobedience campaigns. Again, MLK Jr. is a role model.What are you talking about?

RED DAVE

Die Neue Zeit
20th September 2011, 04:32
The Chartists didn't get elected to get all but one of their planks implemented. MLK Jr. didn't get elected to realize the Civil Rights Act.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
20th September 2011, 09:12
Like I said in the other thread, if we had enough power as a class to force a European-wide nationalisation of the banking system through extra-parliamentary means, then why would we stop at a nationalisation? In reality, we wouldn't, you just seem to like advocating Reformism, for some reason.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
20th September 2011, 09:14
The Chartists didn't get elected to get all but one of their planks implemented. MLK Jr. didn't get elected to realize the Civil Rights Act.

How many years did it take them? Their aims weren't realised until 1928. If Chartism and MLK Jr. are your role models then perhaps this is the wrong forum for you, you might want to join the Labour Party.

Die Neue Zeit
20th September 2011, 13:59
Like I said in the other thread, if we had enough power as a class to force a European-wide nationalisation of the banking system through extra-parliamentary means, then why would we stop at a nationalisation? In reality, we wouldn't, you just seem to like advocating Reformism, for some reason.

There is such a thing as a difference between having enough power to force some measures and having enough power to become the new ruling class. The examples I mentioned were only of the former.


How many years did it take them? Their aims weren't realised until 1928. If Chartism and MLK Jr. are your role models then perhaps this is the wrong forum for you, you might want to join the Labour Party.

1918, actually. Anyway, genuine political struggle, the basis of genuine class struggle, has to begin somewhere.

RED DAVE
20th September 2011, 16:00
Anyway, genuine political struggle, the basis of genuine class struggle, has to begin somewhere.That's what the transitonal method is all about: the determination of starting points and continuing points for class struggle, leading to revolution.

RED DAVE

piet11111
20th September 2011, 19:32
The Chartists didn't get elected to get all but one of their planks implemented. MLK Jr. didn't get elected to realize the Civil Rights Act.

Bourgeois democracy as a public speaking stage without actually participating in the charade.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
20th September 2011, 20:03
There is such a thing as a difference between having enough power to force some measures and having enough power to become the new ruling class. The examples I mentioned were only of the former.



1918, actually. Anyway, genuine political struggle, the basis of genuine class struggle, has to begin somewhere.

Having the power to force through such measures indicates having the power to overthrow the bourgeoisie. So, if we had such power, why would we not demand the end of Capitalism, or at least something revolutionary? If class consciousness was at the level that we could force through genuine pro-worker policies at the highest levels of European government, then why wouldn't we open up a new political struggle, rather than resort to blatant reformism as you advocate?

And no, in 1918, women could only vote if they were over 30 and of the ruling class.:thumbup1:

Die Neue Zeit
21st September 2011, 02:50
Having the power to force through such measures indicates having the power to overthrow the bourgeoisie.

No it doesn't. Having the power to consciously overthrow the bourgeoisie means supporting key political measures that combine to make a DOTP, well beyond Trotsky's "united front" antics. Public support for ELR isn't the same as public support for full recallability, average skilled workers wages, workers militias, etc.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
21st September 2011, 10:00
I genuinely think that, if you had ever been on the front line, you would realise that what you are saying has no credibility outside your own head.

I'm not saying that rudely, i'm not a beacon of activism myself, but you have to have been involved in some activism to have a realistic bent on your theoretical musings, otherwise they are based on nothing more than your own pre-conceptions, which, i'm afraid, are proving to be wrong, thus under-mining your entire arguments.

My point was that having the power, as a class, to force through such measures indicates revolutionary potential, so these demands would prove useless and pointless.

RED DAVE
21st September 2011, 13:02
Having the power to force through such measures indicates having the power to overthrow the bourgeoisie.
No it doesn't. Having the power to consciously overthrow the bourgeoisie means supporting key political measuresYou "support[] key political measures" in a Parliament. Is that your idea of revolutionary power?


that combine to make a DOTPThe dictatorsip of the proletariat is not the sum total of political "measures." It is the achievement of a revolutionary program.


well beyond Trotsky's "united front" antics.You obviously have no idea what the united front strategy was/is.


Public support for ELR isn't the same as public support for full recallability, average skilled workers wages, workers militias, etc."Public support" is for liberals and social democrats. On the one hand, you try to put forward a bogus critique of the united front; on the other hand, you are talking about liberal reforms. Wow!

RED DAVE

Die Neue Zeit
21st September 2011, 15:17
You "support[] key political measures" in a Parliament. Is that your idea of revolutionary power?

Full recallability, average skilled workers wages, workers militias, etc. preferrably implemented by a party-movement for society as a whole.


The dictatorsip of the proletariat is not the sum total of political "measures." It is the achievement of a revolutionary program.

It is both:

http://www.iran-bulletin.org/Marxism/Macnair%20-%208.htm
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/788/democracyor.php


You obviously have no idea what the united front strategy was/is.

Marx's united front /= Trotsky's united front

"The immediate aim of the Communists is the same as that of all other proletarian parties: formation of the proletariat into a class, overthrow of the bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power by the proletariat." (Marx and Engels)


"Public support" is for liberals and social democrats. On the one hand, you try to put forward a bogus critique of the united front; on the other hand, you are talking about liberal reforms. Wow!

I was too lazy to write "majority political support from the working class." :rolleyes:

Vladimir Innit Lenin
21st September 2011, 20:50
So you're not going to bother addressing my points, as they don't suit your agenda? Seems a trend.

You've not been clear in this thread, as to the relationship between your advocacy of post-Keynesian solutions - which are not actually 'solutions', insofar as they are not Socialist, and Capitalism cannot be successfully reformed - and the achievement of Socialism.

You cannot honestly tell me that post-Keynesianism = DotP. The Dotp requires the expropriation of the bourgeoisie and the smashing (or beginning of destruction) of state institutions, it cannot be achieved by moving the goalposts slightly leftwards.

RED DAVE
22nd September 2011, 01:11
You "support[] key political measures" in a Parliament. Is that your idea of revolutionary power?
Full recallability, average skilled workers wages, workers militias, etc. preferrably implemented by a party-movement for society as a whole.Words, just words, which conceal the fact that your notion of socialism is basically parliamentary: you're a social democrat


The dictatorsip [sic] of the proletariat is not the sum total of political "measures." It is the achievement of a revolutionary program.
It is both:

http://www.iran-bulletin.org/Marxism...ir%20-%208.htm (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.iran-bulletin.org/Marxism/Macnair%20-%208.htm)
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/788/democracyor.php (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/788/democracyor.php)
Hint: Quoting Mike McNair and Paul Cockshott, two quasi-stalinists, answers nothing.


You obviously have no idea what the united front strategy was/is.
Marx's united front /= Trotsky's united front

"The immediate aim of the Communists is the same as that of all other proletarian parties: formation of the proletariat into a class, overthrow of the bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power by the proletariat."(Marx and Engels)Like I said, you obviously have no idea what the united front strategy was/is.


"Public support" is for liberals and social democrats. On the one hand, you try to put forward a bogus critique of the united front; on the other hand, you are talking about liberal reforms. Wow!
I was too lazy to write "majority political support from the working class." :rolleyes:Whatever.

RED DAVE

Die Neue Zeit
22nd September 2011, 01:42
So you're not going to bother addressing my points, as they don't suit your agenda?

You used an ad hominem. Speaking of which, in terms of workers' actual class struggle, I dare venture to say that comrade Cockshott has more experience in that than either you or I, since going back to the anti-poll tax campaign.


You've not been clear in this thread, as to the relationship between your advocacy of post-Keynesian solutions - which are not actually 'solutions', insofar as they are not Socialist, and Capitalism cannot be successfully reformed - and the achievement of Socialism.

You cannot honestly tell me that post-Keynesianism = DotP.

Of course it isn't the DOTP.


The Dotp requires the expropriation of the bourgeoisie and the smashing (or beginning of destruction) of state institutions, it cannot be achieved by moving the goalposts slightly leftwards.

You've got the wrong order. The DOTP requires the replacement of the bourgeois state with a workers polity before wholesale expropriations of the bourgeoisie and petit-bourgeoisie. It's the stuff to which Red Dave above dismissed abruptly as, "Words, just words, which conceal the fact that your notion of socialism is basically parliamentary: you're a social democrat."

RED DAVE
22nd September 2011, 01:50
So you're not going to bother addressing my points, as they don't suit your agenda?
You used an ad hominem. Speaking of which, in terms of workers' actual class struggle, I dare venture to say that comrade Cockshott has more experience in that than either you or I, since going back to the anti-poll tax campaign.So you're not going to bother addressing his points, as they don't suit your agenda?

RED DAVE

Vladimir Innit Lenin
22nd September 2011, 09:46
You've got the wrong order. The DOTP requires the replacement of the bourgeois state with a workers polity before wholesale expropriations of the bourgeoisie and petit-bourgeoisie. It's the stuff to which Red Dave above dismissed abruptly as, "Words, just words, which conceal the fact that your notion of socialism is basically parliamentary: you're a social democrat."

At this point, i'm convinced you've lost the plot. How can a workers' polity be formed whilst the bourgeoisie still own the economy? It's impossible.

There is also no such thing as a workers' polity, effectively. The working class will take over the machinations of the state only to destroy them, not to form a workers' state. Bearing in mind the goal of international, revolutionary Socialism, a 'workers' state' is an anachronism that has historically proven its failure in the previous century.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
22nd September 2011, 09:48
You used an ad hominem. Speaking of which, in terms of workers' actual class struggle, I dare venture to say that comrade Cockshott has more experience in that than either you or I, since going back to the anti-poll tax campaign.


It was an Ad hom that had a specific point behind it; that you weren't inexperienced in activism, you were no-experienced in activism, and that this is clear from the unlikely scenarios betrayed in your work.

So yeah, I was just saying that, whilst i'm not a hugely experienced comrade (partially down to age), you seem to be no-experienced, which actually does undermine your theoretical work, if you want to call it work. All I want you to do is shoot me down by saying that you've been involved in the movement a bit, but you won't, because you can't, and that feeds my disappointment and stops me from taking your work seriously, since it means that none of your opinions are of the primary type, they all feed off the commentaries of real movements from others, that you have read.

Die Neue Zeit
22nd September 2011, 14:13
At this point, i'm convinced you've lost the plot. How can a workers' polity be formed whilst the bourgeoisie still own the economy? It's impossible.

As of November 8, 1917, the Russian bourgeoisie still existed.


There is also no such thing as a workers' polity, effectively. The working class will take over the machinations of the state only to destroy them, not to form a workers' state. Bearing in mind the goal of international, revolutionary Socialism, a 'workers' state' is an anachronism that has historically proven its failure in the previous century.

Workers polity, demarchic commonwealth, etc. /= "workers state" for the simple reason that the state is first and foremost the sum of the repressive instruments for the rule of minority classes, and a very private and not public one according to Kantian reasoning.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
22nd September 2011, 19:06
Ah, so when 49% of the population represses the rest, it is state oppression, and when 51% of the population represses the other 49%, it is a workers' polity. I see.

Whatever you say, a workers' polity necessitates the expropriation of the bourgeois class. Note: the bourgeois class can obviously still exist post-expropriation. What you are describing is a workers' state, not a workers' polity (if we are to take the latter to mean worker-led alternative instruments of governance).

RED DAVE
23rd September 2011, 01:11
Workers polity, demarchic commonwealth, etc. /= "workers state" for the simple reason that the state is first and foremost the sum of the repressive instruments for the rule of minority classes, and a very private and not public one according to Kantian reasoning.This is a collection of stock phrases strung together with little rhyme or reason. It is a perfect example of the bullshit that DNZ slings which has about as much relationship to Marxism as a garbage dump has to a botanic garden.

The essence of the workers state will be workers control of the economy from the workplace on up. DNZ has never grasped this and, in the end, probably opposes it.

RED DAVE

Die Neue Zeit
23rd September 2011, 02:13
Ah, so when 49% of the population represses the rest, it is state oppression, and when 51% of the population represses the other 49%, it is a workers' polity. I see.

That's vulgar. It depends on who comprises both the 49% and the 51%.

If the 49% of the population happens to be entirely working-class, and they themselves comprise the majority of the working class (let's assume the class as a whole is two-thirds of the total population), then it's a workers' polity.

If the 50%+1 of the population merely includes huge elements of workers but not the majority of workers, then it is non-worker statism at work.

Majority political support from a proletarian demographic majority discards universal suffrage fetishes and worker minority fetishes.


Whatever you say, a workers' polity necessitates the expropriation of the bourgeois class. Note: the bourgeois class can obviously still exist post-expropriation. What you are describing is a workers' state, not a workers' polity (if we are to take the latter to mean worker-led alternative instruments of governance).

As I said, there's no such thing as a "workers state."