I'm abandoning reformism

[Drosophila]

I've decided that reformism is impossible and I am abandoning the idea. I no longer believe that the "democratic process" and voting can accomplish what needs to be done to establish a worker's state. The very structure of the United States government does not allow for it.

That's all I have to say about that. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otm4RusESNU)

[Luc]

Congrats?:unsure:

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Now you just need to adapt a revolutionary program to replace your defeated reformism.

[Drosophila]

Congrats?:unsure:

thank u *kisses ur hand*

[thesadmafioso]

Uh, should we propose a toast or something then? Perhaps we can break out some internet champagne as well?

[Luc]

So are you a revolutionist now?

[La Comédie Noire]

Let the hate flow through you.

[#FF0000]

Welp, I guess now you can be unrestricted.

What I like about this part is how asinine it makes the entire restriction thing look, no matter how it is handled.

[Drosophila]

Agreed, especially since pretty much anything can be posted in this forum

[pluckedflowers]

Welp, I guess now you can be unrestricted.

What I like about this part is how asinine it makes the entire restriction thing look, no matter how it is handled.

I'll admit, the restriction thing seems a little bizarre to a newcomer like myself. However, I also have to say I like the general idea of keeping the main forums free from excessive trolling and generally degraded discourse. Having engaged in debates both in OI and the main forums, my impression is that the quality is indeed higher in the latter and the former is, with some notable exceptions, kind of a shit hole. Perhaps people should only be restricted for being reactionary trolls, rather than simply reactionary?

[ColonelCossack]

well done.

[Bud Struggle]

Now you just need to adapt a revolutionary program to replace your defeated reformism.

Or of course become a Reactionary...

Well, there are TWO choices. ;) :D

[#FF0000]

I'll admit, the restriction thing seems a little bizarre to a newcomer like myself. However, I also have to say I like the general idea of keeping the main forums free from excessive trolling and generally degraded discourse. Having engaged in debates both in OI and the main forums, my impression is that the quality is indeed higher in the latter and the former is, with some notable exceptions, kind of a shit hole. Perhaps people should only be restricted for being reactionary trolls, rather than simply reactionary?

Well the idea I always had (though I'm sure someone else suggested it and I just picked it up without remembering it) was just restrict communism vs. capitalism nonsense to the OI forum. People can otherwise post anywhere. For example, Bud Struggle would be able to post a question or answer a question regarding Theory or History, but would have to keep the "This is why communism can't work and capitalism is good" stuff in here, you know?

Then we could just restrict people to OI if they can't help themselves. The rest of the forum is about exploring and discussing leftism, while OI would be the CLASH OF IDEOLOGIES forum.

[Bud Struggle]

Well the idea I always had (though I'm sure someone else suggested it and I just picked it up without remembering it) was just restrict communism vs. capitalism nonsense to the OI forum. People can otherwise post anywhere. For example, Bud Struggle would be able to post a question or answer a question regarding Theory or History, but would have to keep the "This is why communism can't work and capitalism is good" stuff in here, you know?


Well look, there is a bit of role playing that goes on here. I have an actual interest in Communism (I'm no "believer" but I am interested and something of a fellow traveler) but since there is no "her Majesty's Loyal Opposition" here om OI, I often fill in the part. I try to make resonable objections to Communism. Sometimes met with reaonable arguments--sometimes not so much.

No objections. I'd like to post in the arts section--I have an interest in Radicalism in music and especially painting. I was (and still sometimes am) a part of the downtown (NYC) art world. I think I might have insights to offer there.

But no matter. I do what the party wishes.

[#FF0000]

Well look, there is a bit of role playing that goes on here.

Sometimes I feel the entire left is more or less a giant roleplaying society.

[StockholmSyndrome]

I've decided that reformism is impossible and I am abandoning the idea. I no longer believe that the "democratic process" and voting can accomplish what needs to be done to establish a worker's state. The very structure of the United States government does not allow for it.

That's all I have to say about that. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otm4RusESNU)

Welcome to the party of reformed reformists who are still restricted and nobody seems to notice...The funny thing is that when we were restricted they said the purpose was for us to learn more. Now that we've learned, what comes next?

[Rafiq]

Keep bothering them until they unrestrict you

[Bud Struggle]

Sometimes I feel the entire left is more or less a giant roleplaying society.

I couldn't agree more. I sometimes come here and feel like Mr Peabody brough me here in his Way Back machine.

It doesn't have to be that way. Communism IS a good idea.

[Misanthrope]

Open minded thinking ftw.

[Rafiq]

I couldn't agree more. I sometimes come here and feel like Mr Peabody brough me here in his Way Back machine.

It doesn't have to be that way. Communism IS a good idea.

Communism, for the last time, isn't a system or 'Idea' in that it's not an economic theory.

I am sick of quoting the same old quote by Marx, so I'm not going to.

We aren't Communists because we want rainbows and sunshine to reign across Earth, or because we are striving for this wonderful Utopia where everyone is equal.

Communism is the hammer we use to crush our class enemy.

[#FF0000]

It doesn't have to be that way. Communism IS a good idea.

Well what keeps me optimistic is that communism isn't an idea, and that the people representing "communism" today will have nothing to do with it when it's time comes.

[Bud Struggle]

Well what keeps me optimistic is that communism isn't an idea, and that the people representing "communism" today will have nothing to do with it when it's time comes.

I have the same belief about Capitalism. :)

[#FF0000]

I have the same belief about Capitalism. :)

Aaand depending on what you mean I would agree with you I think.

[NGNM85]

Well the idea I always had (though I'm sure someone else suggested it and I just picked it up without remembering it) was just restrict communism vs. capitalism nonsense to the OI forum. People can otherwise post anywhere. For example, Bud Struggle would be able to post a question or answer a question regarding Theory or History, but would have to keep the "This is why communism can't work and capitalism is good" stuff in here, you know?
Then we could just restrict people to OI if they can't help themselves. The rest of the forum is about exploring and discussing leftism, while OI would be the CLASH OF IDEOLOGIES forum.

This is what I've been saying. There's no need to go around Restricting everybody and their brother, if we just stepped up enforcement on trolling. If somebody has something intelligent to say, that's pertinent to the topic at hand, it doesn’t matter what their ideology is.

At the very least; I don't see why members deemed ideologically impure should necessarily be limited to OI, alone. Even if I wasn't an Anarchist; (Which just makes it that much more ridiculous.) why the hell can't I post in Sciences, Literature & Film, or Music? These subforums don’t necessarily have anything to do with politics.

[#FF0000]

My proposal has one caveat: That NGNM85 stay restricted indefinitely

[Zav]

Communism, for the last time, isn't a system or 'Idea' in that it's not an economic theory.

I am sick of quoting the same old quote by Marx, so I'm not going to.

We aren't Communists because we want rainbows and sunshine to reign across Earth, or because we are striving for this wonderful Utopia where everyone is equal.

Communism is the hammer we use to crush our class enemy.
I disagree entirely. Communism is the finished product and revolution is the hammer.

[#FF0000]

i disagree entirely. Communism is the finished product and revolution is the hammer.

communism is law

you are crime

[NGNM85]

My proposal has one caveat: That NGNM85 stay restricted indefinitely

That's what I get for agreeing with you. Of course, I think that's the first time you said something intelligent. Back to the status quo, I see.

[Luc]

Hey NGNM85, why are you restrict? just wondering

EDIT: (answered)

[#FF0000]

That's what I get for agreeing with you. Of course, I think that's the first time you said something intelligent. Back to the status quo, I see.

<3

[Geiseric]

Good, reformism doens't work. It's been tried for the past 200 years. The liberals will only go so far.

[o well this is ok I guess]

Sometimes I feel the entire left is more or less a giant roleplaying society. I'm a level 12 Bolshevik

In 18 more levels I can specialize as a Trotskyist and gain a lot of permanent revolutionary bonus skills

[Agent Equality]

Communism, for the last time, isn't a system or 'Idea' in that it's not an economic theory.

I am sick of quoting the same old quote by Marx, so I'm not going to.

We aren't Communists because we want rainbows and sunshine to reign across Earth, or because we are striving for this wonderful Utopia where everyone is equal.

Communism is the hammer we use to crush our class enemy.

Well actually...I think we are communists because we are striving for this wonderful world (wouldn't say utopia) where everyone is equal. Honestly if equality and fairness isn't your main priority, then you shouldn't consider yourself a communist, or even a far leftist.

You should be a commie to try and lift everyone up alongside you and tear those down who have steeped too high to make them level. Communism by definition is a stateless classless society, so it cannot by that (limited) definition, be the hammer with which you use to crush your class enemy. Think of them only as your enemy in that they wish to keep hierarchy and inequality and you are simply opposed to them. It'd be completely hypocritical if you advocated for a fair society in which all are equal. yet you treat the former bourgeois as subhumans or what not.

Unless of course you are not advocating for equality or perhaps just for some people to be more equal than others? In that case you essentially put yourself in Stalin's shoes. Congratulations.

[Rafiq]

I disagree entirely. Communism is the finished product and revolution is the hammer.

Only if you're you're Utopian shit with no actual understanding of the dynamics of the world.

[#FF0000]

I'm a level 12 Bolshevik

In 18 more levels I can specialize as a Trotskyist and gain a lot of permanent revolutionary bonus skills

lol scrub show me one Vanguard Party clearing end-game content with people spec'd Trotskyist.

[thriller]

I'm a level 12 Bolshevik

In 18 more levels I can specialize as a Trotskyist and gain a lot of permanent revolutionary bonus skills

Haha! I love it!

As for the OP, good? I mean the more revolutionaries the better, but it sucks to be steadfast to an idea for a while and then give up on it, as I did with my USA is number 1 attitude I had before I went to Europe. But then again, I'm glad that my former ideals were shown (to me) to be just plain dumb.


The Workers United Will Never Be Defeated!

[Commissar Rykov]

lol scrub show me one Vanguard Party clearing end-game content with people spec'd Trotskyist.
Stalin uses Ice-Pick!
It is SUPER EFFECTIVE!

[ВАЛТЕР]

I've decided that reformism is impossible and I am abandoning the idea. I no longer believe that the "democratic process" and voting can accomplish what needs to be done to establish a worker's state. The very structure of the United States government does not allow for it.

That's all I have to say about that. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otm4RusESNU)

Good...Good....

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/188012_163675467025008_2958146_n.jpg

[RevoTO]

Most amusing thread ive come across in a while

[Drosophila]

And with that I'd like to be able to use the regular forums, if any moderators are reading this.

[RGacky3]

I don't think reformism and revolutoinary(ism?) are mutually exclusive.

I fight for the full overthrow of capitalism, but I also fight for anything that benefits the oppressed against the oppressor, anything that shifts power from the capitalists to the workers.

I think fighting for welfare capitalism or even social democracy as your goal is stupid, its philisophically unsound and its tactically pointless. But equally stupid is condemning everything other than the total overthrow of capitalism.

[NGNM85]

I don't think reformism and revolutoinary(ism?) are mutually exclusive.

I fight for the full overthrow of capitalism, but I also fight for anything that benefits the oppressed against the oppressor, anything that shifts power from the capitalists to the workers.

I think fighting for welfare capitalism or even social democracy as your goal is stupid, its philisophically unsound and its tactically pointless. But equally stupid is condemning everything other than the total overthrow of capitalism.

If I could; I'd Thank this twice.

[NGNM85]

And with that I'd like to be able to use the regular forums, if any moderators are reading this.

You have to draft a formal statement in Unfair Restrictions, explaining that you are no longer ideologically impure, and begging the politburo for leniency. They might unRestrict you, but I haven't seen it happen very often.

[dodger]

Dan it is just a hunch....but it seems reformism has just gone and abandoned you......there is a very bad smell wafting across the Atlantic....something is putrefying. It's quite a stench. When the wind changes the odour wafting across is probably ours in Britain. It's not good. It is forcing us all to view things afresh. nobody can do our thinking for us. We have to take responsibility. The reformers here are incapable of reforming themselves, let alone tackling society. With snouts deep in the trough they can only mouth that poverty is a lifestyle choice, that we must reduce each nation into an armed camp, a militarized society will be our only choice if we carry on invading other nations.

NATO....EU....US...are attempting to create a Triumvirate, THAT NONE DARE OPPOSE!
a second scramble for Africa is under way. Each nation must exercise sovereignty assert itself or fall prey to globalization. It' plain to see that capitalism is so out of control that even the rich and powerful are trembling and are unable to control its headlong flight towards the abyss. Reformism if the situation was not so damned dangerous would be laughable. So DAN has seen what many more have awoken to....that we must take up the reigns ourselves.

[Bud Struggle]

If I could; I'd Thank this twice.

I'll do it for you.

[La Comédie Noire]

I know people always dismiss this is as "just the internet" but If we can't even manage democracy on a little message board how are we supposed to liberate the earth?

[Susurrus]

Only if you're you're Utopian shit with no actual understanding of the dynamics of the world.

I assume the quote you referenced earlier was this one?

Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things. The conditions of this movement result from the premises now in existence.

While it is true that it is not a set in stone state of existence, and that it is simply the result of materialist and social conditions, it is true that Marx had expectations for what a communist society will be like, and how it would be distinguished from other societies.


Communism... is the genuine resolution of the antagonism between man and nature and between man and man; it is the true resolution of the conflict between existence and essence, objectification and self-affirmation, freedom and necessity, individual and species. It is the riddle of history solved and knows itself as the solution.


The theory of Communism may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.


In place of the bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, shall we have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.