Would this be considered over-training?

[xub3rn00dlex]

I started a new workout routine on Wednesday of last week. It is a hybrid cross between Wendler's 5/3/1 routine and Jay Cutler's Mr. O routine. I am off any kinds of PEDs whatsoever.

I've been pushing my body to more extreme limits than I ever have before. Naturally after the gym I'd get tired, but now after doing this new hybrid it gets to the point where I feel completely weak after the gym until I get my post workout shake in. I've done my own research regarding over-training, and while I exhibit some symptoms of it, I don't exhibit all of them. Out of the 8-10 total major symptoms I only experience about 2-3 of them - these being sleeplessness due to hyper-excitivity, weakness directly after the gym, and I caught a cold two days after starting the routine ( I haven't been sick in the slightest in several months. )

My diet is more strict than it used to be, so I'm also attributing some of these symptoms to a reduced sugar intake ( might actually be lower than normal, ) a lack of any kinds of PEDs currently, and life being more stressful than I'm normally used to.

Any kind of response is greatly appreciated. Nic if you read this, tell me what you think.

[Niccolò Rossi]

I started a new workout routine on Wednesday of last week. It is a hybrid cross between Wendler's 5/3/1 routine and Jay Cutler's Mr. O routine. I am off any kinds of PEDs whatsoever.

I've been pushing my body to more extreme limits than I ever have before. Naturally after the gym I'd get tired, but now after doing this new hybrid it gets to the point where I feel completely weak after the gym until I get my post workout shake in. I've done my own research regarding over-training, and while I exhibit some symptoms of it, I don't exhibit all of them. Out of the 8-10 total major symptoms I only experience about 2-3 of them - these being sleeplessness due to hyper-excitivity, weakness directly after the gym, and I caught a cold two days after starting the routine ( I haven't been sick in the slightest in several months. )

My diet is more strict than it used to be, so I'm also attributing some of these symptoms to a reduced sugar intake ( might actually be lower than normal, ) a lack of any kinds of PEDs currently, and life being more stressful than I'm normally used to.

Any kind of response is greatly appreciated. Nic if you read this, tell me what you think.

I'm flattered you're interested in my opinion. Idon't think it's worth much so please take it with a grain of salt.

Couldyou give specific details about the programs structure? What are your main lift numbers? What assistance work are you doing exactly? Sets/reps?

Right off the bat I'll say If you are 1 week into 5/3/1 I don't see any reason why you should be overtrained IF YOU ARE FOLLOWING THE PROGRAM AS WRITTEN. Specifically I'm referring here to Wendlers prescription to start 5/3/1 with a sub-max calculation of 1RM capability. I'm not entirely sure from memory but I think Wendler asks you to use 90% of your 1RM for calculations when starting the program. So iff followed in this way it should take a few months to get back up to true 1RM levels.

If you are using your true 1RM for calculating the load for the program it might be more understandable that you've hit a wall pretty hard and fast.

Reality is 5/3/1 is pretty low volume/low intensity to be honest. It's very forgiving. Personally I found that I became de-trained when using it, squatting/benching with such little intensity/volume once a week was simply not enough. Saying that, ALOT of people seem to have made excellent progress using it and in general I think it's a pretty sensible way for alot of people to organise their training.

Regarding your symptoms; 'overtaining' is a funny creature and their alot of myth and legend surrounding it. People like Stuart McDonald probably had alot to do with it, warning us that overtraining was always just around the corner if we trained more than 2-3 times a week or if we ever performed assisted reps, negatives, drop sets, etc. You qalso have guys going on about 'overtraining' their biceps or some bullshit. You don't 'overtrain' a muscle. You overtrain your entire body as a phsiological system. Overtraining isn't having perpetually sore triceps and not growing (although these may be symptoms of a problem). I think you are well aware of this though. Overtraining really becomes a problem, when your diet and lifestyle are on point when you are doing shit like smolov or some of the more intense sheiko programs and squatting/benching 4 times a week at very high intensities. Mr. O routines would probably be on a similar level I reckon, stuff like Arnies 6 day aweek double split comes to mind as a great way to turn you into a blubbering mess pretty quick.

How long ago did you come off the drugs? This strikes me as probably the major factor (combined with stress and over factors of course).

For the moment, my non-professional advice would be to stick with it. Do what you can to eat and rest proper. Training success comes in waves. You'll be beaten down but it's at those times that it's most important to continue plodding along and training through it. It's those moments when adaption occurs.

Nic.

[xub3rn00dlex]

I'm flattered you're interested in my opinion. Idon't think it's worth much so please take it with a grain of salt.

In all the sports and health threads I've always found your posts extremely useful and well written, backed by proper data. You are pretty educated in this subject if you ask me.



Couldyou give specific details about the programs structure? What are your main lift numbers? What assistance work are you doing exactly? Sets/reps?

Right off the bat I'll say If you are 1 week into 5/3/1 I don't see any reason why you should be overtrained IF YOU ARE FOLLOWING THE PROGRAM AS WRITTEN. Specifically I'm referring here to Wendlers prescription to start 5/3/1 with a sub-max calculation of 1RM capability. I'm not entirely sure from memory but I think Wendler asks you to use 90% of your 1RM for calculations when starting the program. So iff followed in this way it should take a few months to get back up to true 1RM levels.

Wendler's program revolves around 4 main exercises, the squat, bench, military press, and dead-lift with about two or so supportive exercises each. I follow Wendler's general schematic, by still revolving my training around those exercises. However, I end up doing anywhere from 4-6 additional supportive sets. So this would be my dead-lift routine on Tuesday combined with Calves.

Dead-lift: 60% 1RM - 5 sets x 5 reps
Lateral Pulldowns Front and Back: 60% 1RM - 5 sets x 5 reps
Seated Rows: 60% 1RM - 5 sets x 5 reps
Standing Barbell Rows: 60% 1RM - 5 sets x 5 reps
Upright Rows: 60% 1RM - 5 sets x 5 reps
Overhead Pulls: 60% 1RM - 5 sets x 5 reps

Calves: 4 exercises 60% 1RM 5 sets x 5 reps



If you are using your true 1RM for calculating the load for the program it might be more understandable that you've hit a wall pretty hard and fast.

I haven't hit a wall, and decided to use my true 1RM instead of the 90% 1RM for my calculations because I figured I would benefit more from the heavier weight.



Reality is 5/3/1 is pretty low volume/low intensity to be honest. It's very forgiving. Personally I found that I became de-trained when using it, squatting/benching with such little intensity/volume once a week was simply not enough. Saying that, ALOT of people seem to have made excellent progress using it and in general I think it's a pretty sensible way for alot of people to organise their training.

I'm so far loving the general layout of the program, as it pretty much outlines the numbers for you. This is helpful in setting a general guideline, but again my 5/3/1 is modified to suit a more bodybuilding oriented regimen.



Regarding your symptoms; 'overtaining' is a funny creature and their alot of myth and legend surrounding it. People like Stuart McDonald probably had alot to do with it, warning us that overtraining was always just around the corner if we trained more than 2-3 times a week or if we ever performed assisted reps, negatives, drop sets, etc. You qalso have guys going on about 'overtraining' their biceps or some bullshit. You don't 'overtrain' a muscle. You overtrain your entire body as a phsiological system. Overtraining isn't having perpetually sore triceps and not growing (although these may be symptoms of a problem). I think you are well aware of this though. Overtraining really becomes a problem, when your diet and lifestyle are on point when you are doing shit like smolov or some of the more intense sheiko programs and squatting/benching 4 times a week at very high intensities. Mr. O routines would probably be on a similar level I reckon, stuff like Arnies 6 day aweek double split comes to mind as a great way to turn you into a blubbering mess pretty quick.

Overtraining is indeed a tricky and pretty complex situation. My muscles end up sore, but that is natural. I just got worried because after the gym I was exhausted more than I normally am. I went to the doctor because I was worried, and he told me I didn't have a cold, but my allergies were worse than what I normally go through. He said it could possibly be attributed to a weaker immune system if I was exerting myself more than usual, and recommended I double the dosage of any anti-histamines to see if it helps. I do a 4 day split, resting on wednesdays, saturdays and sundays.



How long ago did you come off the drugs? This strikes me as probably the major factor (combined with stress and over factors of course).

Roughly about 2 weeks ago my MK-2866 cycle ended, and am a little suppressed since my bottle of Nolvadex shattered. I have been supplementing Trib-T, Erase, and D-AA in order to recover my natural T productions to their normal conditions. Even though I'm suppressed, I have no problems with libido, and actually feel it is somewhat enhanced. My biggest source of stress comes from work, as we were finishing up one job-site and being bombarded with last minute touch ups, and now I'm supervising an older job site even though I'm technically just a carpenter's assistant. College is also getting a little more difficult, so balancing my life is becoming a mess again.



For the moment, my non-professional advice would be to stick with it. Do what you can to eat and rest proper. Training success comes in waves. You'll be beaten down but it's at those times that it's most important to continue plodding along and training through it. It's those moments when adaption occurs.

Nic.

You have no idea how much I appreciate you taking the time to respond to this post. I don't plan on cutting back with this regimen, unless it begins to pose some serious health risks. I go to the gym with the mentality of "Go hard or go home," and so far I've been pushing my body more than I normally have. I also noticed I'm eating a little bit more and am hungry faster than usual, perhaps due to the extra wear and tear that the routine is causing. I either add an extra shake in or get an extra high protein high carb meal in if I can. Thank you for your response again Nic.

[Niccolò Rossi]

Wendler's program revolves around 4 main exercises, the squat, bench, military press, and dead-lift with about two or so supportive exercises each. I follow Wendler's general schematic, by still revolving my training around those exercises. However, I end up doing anywhere from 4-6 additional supportive sets. So this would be my dead-lift routine on Tuesday combined with Calves.

Dead-lift: 60% 1RM - 5 sets x 5 reps
Lateral Pulldowns Front and Back: 60% 1RM - 5 sets x 5 reps
Seated Rows: 60% 1RM - 5 sets x 5 reps
Standing Barbell Rows: 60% 1RM - 5 sets x 5 reps
Upright Rows: 60% 1RM - 5 sets x 5 reps
Overhead Pulls: 60% 1RM - 5 sets x 5 reps

Calves: 4 exercises 60% 1RM 5 sets x 5 reps



A little surprised by your rep scheme. 5x5 on calves!?

Anyway, if you read the original book, I think the 'triumvirate' or 'Dave Tate's 'periodisation bible'' are good assistance structures. Dave Tate's recommendation is something like this:

Press/Bench
Chest/Shoulder movement (so basically a pressing movement eg. dumbell bench, incline bench, etc.)
Upper back movement (eg. T-bar row, dumbell row, chin ups, lat pull down, etc.)
Tricep work (eg. Close grip, JM press, french press, tri extensions etc.)

Squat/Deadlift
Quad work (eg. Front squat, hack squat, leg press, etc.)
Low back/Hammie work (eg.back raise, glute ham raise, RDL etc.)
Ab work (roll outs, hanging pikes, crunches etc.)

Dave recommends assistance work to be done for 5 sets of 10-15 reps.

You can add in bicep work and calf work and rear delt work etc. pretty easy. Just be sensible.

I think personally this is a very good format.

I've played around with 5/3/1 before. I wasn't a big fan as I mentioned previously. At the end of the day though, like most things, it does 'work'. For 5/3/1 though, my understanding is very much that it is a program you have to run long term to see improvements. The load increases are very small and very slow. You'll need to run it for minimum 6 months to see any meaningful headway in the main lifts.

As I said though, it is a sensible way to structure training and you can do alot around it, especially given how forgiving it is.


I haven't hit a wall, and decided to use my true 1RM instead of the 90% 1RM for my calculations because I figured I would benefit more from the heavier weight.


My suggestion is always run a program as written first time through. Especially since you've come off the drugs, being conservative isn't a terrible idea in my opinion.


My muscles end up sore, but that is natural. I just got worried because after the gym I was exhausted more than I normally am.

On squat day I'm literally yawning and trying to keep myself awake and energised by the end of the session. Fucking want to sleep as soon as I get home. Haha.

[xub3rn00dlex]

A little surprised by your rep scheme. 5x5 on calves!?

I feel I don't get enough of a workout on my calves by doing one or two exercises.



Anyway, if you read the original book, I think the 'triumvirate' or 'Dave Tate's 'periodisation bible'' are good assistance structures. Dave Tate's recommendation is something like this:

Press/Bench
Chest/Shoulder movement (so basically a pressing movement eg. dumbell bench, incline bench, etc.)
Upper back movement (eg. T-bar row, dumbell row, chin ups, lat pull down, etc.)
Tricep work (eg. Close grip, JM press, french press, tri extensions etc.)

Squat/Deadlift
Quad work (eg. Front squat, hack squat, leg press, etc.)
Low back/Hammie work (eg.back raise, glute ham raise, RDL etc.)
Ab work (roll outs, hanging pikes, crunches etc.)

Dave recommends assistance work to be done for 5 sets of 10-15 reps.

You can add in bicep work and calf work and rear delt work etc. pretty easy. Just be sensible.

I downloaded the ebook because I thought no matter what the information would be valuable, even if I didn't follow it. I'm the kind of guy who would rather know something, not use it, but share it with others if they ever needed it. My schedule is similar to the one outlined in the book:

Mondays : Shoulder work and Triceps work and Ab work
Tuesdays: Back work and Calves
Wednesdays: Ab work
Thursdays: Chest work and Bicep work
Fridays: Quads and Hamstrings work and Ab work
Saturdays and Sundays : Eating and Sleeping work



I think personally this is a very good format.

I've played around with 5/3/1 before. I wasn't a big fan as I mentioned previously. At the end of the day though, like most things, it does 'work'. For 5/3/1 though, my understanding is very much that it is a program you have to run long term to see improvements. The load increases are very small and very slow. You'll need to run it for minimum 6 months to see any meaningful headway in the main lifts.

As I said though, it is a sensible way to structure training and you can do alot around it, especially given how forgiving it is.


Yeah, the 5/3/1 revolves around month long cycles with each consecutive cycle only adding 10-15lbs to your 1RM. IIRC, according to the math done in the book, you'd only be adding 50lbs to your 1RMs on the four exercises the regimen revolves around per year, which may be a little slow paced for several people.


My suggestion is always run a program as written first time through. Especially since you've come off the drugs, being conservative isn't a terrible idea in my opinion.

I wanted to run the program as outlined, but I didn't feel it was going to suit my needs the way I need it too. I modified it with the Mr. O program which I am pretty comfortable with and have done for about 4 months now. I'm currently in my PCT phase coming of Ostarine, so perhaps it wasn't the best timing. I do have another bottle on the way though, this time andarine s4 which should arrive early next week. I am thinking of waiting until I restart the 5/3/1 again with the 10lb increases in 1RM in order to compare the differences of cycles.



On squat day I'm literally yawning and trying to keep myself awake and energised by the end of the session. Fucking want to sleep as soon as I get home. Haha.

I despise doing squats, most likely due to a high school injury that always lingers in the back of my mind. Especially considering squat days are on Fridays, I know exactly how you feel about being dead tired during the workout.