Is patriotism the same as nationalism?

[eric922]

I didn't know where to put this, so if there is a better forum feel free to move it. My question is this: Is patriotism the same thing as nationalism? I think they are, patriotism is simply an attempt to soften nationalism and make it seem nicer, but it has the same qualities: love of your country simply because it is your country and it divides people into groups as in "my country is better than yours."

[Misanthrope]

People say they're "cousins", I think they're exactly the same. State rituals like the pledge of allegiance are extremely nationalist.. promising your loyalty to the state.

[Rafiq]

They are equally reactionary.

However, they are not the same. Patriotism can be just applied to countries or unions themselves (USA, USSR, UK, etc), while Nationalism can only apply to nations (Ethnic groups, etc).

[Misanthrope]

They are equally reactionary.

However, they are not the same. Patriotism can be just applied to countries or unions themselves (USA, USSR, UK, etc), while Nationalism can only apply to nations (Ethnic groups, etc).

American "patriots" claim superiority over others because they're American. Many view countries like Canada and European countries with the view that they're "soft" or "sissies". Is that not nationalism?

[Rafiq]

Well it would depend on how you define Nations. For example, if someone defines America as a Nation then Patriotism itself in the U.S. would not exist, and it would all just be different shades of Nationalism.

But I've said before they are both equally reactionary.

[#FF0000]

they are both dumb

[Susurrus]

I love how the Pledge of Allegiance was written by a Christian Utopian "Socialist" trying to "inoculate" Americans from the "virus" of radicalism by installing unquestioning loyalty, and that the pledge was popularized during a marketing campaign to sell flags.

[xub3rn00dlex]

they are both dumb

Yes they are. As George Carlin put it "Being Irish ( apply any nationality ) isn't a skill, it's a fucking genetic accident."

[Veovis]

I've always thought that the only people who have a logical basis for feeling "patriotic" are naturalized citizens, because they're the only ones who had to work for it.

Even so, I've always found it hard to relate to people who feel strongly in that manner, no matter what the reason.

[xub3rn00dlex]

I've always thought that the only people who have a logical basis for feeling "patriotic" are naturalized citizens, because they're the only ones who had to work for it.

Even so, I've always found it hard to relate to people who feel strongly in that manner, no matter what the reason.

I became a naturalized citizen of the U.S, and I didn't work for it. All that was required was living here for 'X' amount of time, and taking a stupid multiple choice exam.

[praxis1966]

I'm thinking this one might be better off in Learning. Thus, moved.

[Dogs On Acid]

The Communist Party of Portugal (Leninist) is Patriotic, their excuse is the EU taking away what little democracy we have in Portugal.

I still find it reactionary.

[Kamos]

In effect, yes. People will constantly tell you that it is slightly different in X or Y way, but who cares? It's all about the same ultra-reactionary thing. Steer clear of any 'patriotic' leftist organisation.

[CornetJoyce]

http://www.peachmountain.com/5star/Museums_Great_Patriotic_War_Museum_Moscow.asp

[Smyg]

I find all forms of patriotism and nationalism both reactionary and fundamentally wrong, but that's probably just because I despise my own nationality. :rolleyes:

Edit: No, really. I absolutely *hate* being Swedish, more than pretty much everything else.

[Hexen]

Patriotism and nationalism are nothing more than divide & conquer strategies to shift worker's attention away from the real problem which is capitalism.

[rednordman]

Patriotism is just an idealist take on nationalism imo. Nationalism itself is inherently hateful and destructive in its nature. Nationalism is what it really is, where as patriotism is just the romantic fairytale use to disguised it by, so people don't go out their minds with guilt and shame.

[Siggon]

There is actually what I call "Left-wing Nationalism" that should be promoted in some cases, not to say that "we are better" but instead, to say "we have rights too!"
This should apply where a nation is badly treated, and they must find an identity to take up arms. We see this in Angola, when Cuban troops fought under the Angolan flag to combat the influences of apartheid.

When a negative identity is given to a group, nothing is wrong with them recognizing themselves as "one" and fighting back for a new name! What's wrong is putting others under that name. I love Jamaica enough to say "I don't want to see it neglected by its own people" because most Jamaicans somewhat dislike their own nationality in preference of other Western influence. Why? The Western influence tricks them into thinking Jamaica is that much of a bad place. I would say "my nation is better than" a first world country in comparison, because that's against usual perception, but I would not boast if my nation is in a better situation while another isn't. Left-wing nationalism is finding an identity during a struggle.

No-one should have to be in a struggle, and if someone is above ground, they should help another out of a hole, but sadly they call us "idealists" because we're against the Capitalist pyramid structure.

I want to be able to say "I'm proud to be Jamaican" but it should not mean I should also say "I would never want to be anything else in the world."

Hitler's National Socialism was far different, and meant "prosperity for the people of this nation only" instead of "prosperity for the people of this nation." I personally think every nation needs to prosper, and nationality shouldn't matter, but a struggle is different; a little sense of pride is needed to increase a warrior's morale.

[Siggon]

I became a naturalized citizen of the U.S, and I didn't work for it. All that was required was living here for 'X' amount of time, and taking a stupid multiple choice exam.

Because Yankees think they're better than everyone else. Not all are like this, though...

[Rodrigo]

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/ho-chi-minh/works/1960/04/x01.htm

[The Stalinator]

Is there a line between loving your country's culture and being a mindless patriot?
I feel this way about Canada. I just like the overall "feel" of where I live and I'm glad I'm from here, but I care little about the state and what it does, and of course I'm not unconditionally loyal to it like a patriot is.

[Per Levy]

its pretty much the same, and both mostly end in the same way: supporting "your" country unconditionally.

[Rodrigo]

Is there a line between loving your country's culture and being a mindless patriot?
I feel this way about Canada. I just like the overall "feel" of where I live and I'm glad I'm from here, but I care little about the state and what it does, and of course I'm not unconditionally loyal to it like a patriot is.

Same here.

Just like no one should ignore the specific aspects of his/her country, of its class struggle and of its working class; and should love your socialist motherland (in the case of some of us)... No communist should ignore proletarian internationalism.

[Siggon]

I'm not unconditionally loyal to it like a patriot is.

That's the line between loving your country's culture and being a mindless patriot... :cool:

[Ned Kelly]

In the sense that you may enjoy and want to preserve specific cultural aspects of the geographic are that you hail from, Patriotism in that sense differs from nationalism.

[W1N5T0N]

"Patriotism" is bullshit.
Chomsky has some pretty good arguments as to why.
I think he said something like "When they say: Do you like the USA?, they actually just mean "Do you support our policy?"

"patriotism" is agreeing with the dumb nationalistic majority.

However, you can love your country regardless of the state. you can love the atmosphere, the nature, the people...
but is that patriotism?

[Hiero]

Yes they are. As George Carlin put it "Being Irish ( apply any nationality ) isn't a skill, it's a fucking genetic accident."

That quote ignores the process of national identity and nationalism. There is nothing genetic about being Irish. That quote implies nations are races, which can lead to racial thinking.

Benedict Anderson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Anderson) wrote in 1983 that nations are imagined communities, a bounded political entity, with limited membership and that has sovereignty over a land mass. Nations are not constructed out of genetic make up, they are constructed in our ability to imagine community.

[Sam Varriano]

When a country is corrupt, and only (lets say 1000) people are willing to expose the corruptions, those 1000 people become the entire country.

That's what I believe anyway, and in that sense, I am a nationalist.

[tir1944]

No,these two aren't the same,at least to my knowledge .
In everyday discourse patriotism usually denotes love for your homeland while nationalism refers to the idea/belief that your nation is somehow superior to other nations.

[Lobotomy]

The only difference is that "patriotism" is more socially acceptable. Politicians can openly promote and express patriotism, and pundits and common people will boast about what patriots they are. If they were to replace that word with "nationalist", they may be criticized and called fascists (rightfully!). But they are still the same fundamental idea.

It's quite odd when you think about it.

[xub3rn00dlex]

That quote ignores the process of national identity and nationalism. There is nothing genetic about being Irish. That quote implies nations are races, which can lead to racial thinking.

Benedict Anderson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Anderson) wrote in 1983 that nations are imagined communities, a bounded political entity, with limited membership and that has sovereignty over a land mass. Nations are not constructed out of genetic make up, they are constructed in our ability to imagine community.

How does it ignore national identity? Carlin was talking about being proud to be Irish during St. Patrick's Day. Proud of one's nation is nationalism, so I am a little confused as to what you're disagreeing with me about. Perhaps my quote needed a little context. Nations are a bunch of lines on a map drawn by imbeciles in power, and being born within these lines is an accident of birth. Me, I love a ton of different cultures from all over the world, but I never support going proud to be 'X.'

[Redacrouse]

Patriotism is the love and gratitude for one's country. Nationalism is the claim that one's country is superior to others, blind devotion to his/her country, and hate towards other countries and their supporters. Generally most 9/11 fanatics are indeed nationalists hiding under innocent patriotism.

[Hiero]

How does it ignore national identity? Carlin was talking about being proud to be Irish during St. Patrick's Day. Proud of one's nation is nationalism, so I am a little confused as to what you're disagreeing with me about. Perhaps my quote needed a little context. Nations are a bunch of lines on a map drawn by imbeciles in power, and being born within these lines is an accident of birth. Me, I love a ton of different cultures from all over the world, but I never support going proud to be 'X.'


I said the "process of". I am disagreeing with the word "genetics". It is just a wierd choice of words, I don't know what Carlin intended to say but I am saying that genetics has nothing to do with nation belonging. Genetics is the reason for my white skin, brown hair, hieght, weight etc it is not the reason why I am Australian or for the existence of the Australian national identity.

[RED DAVE]

love your socialist motherland:rolleyes:

RED DAVE

[dodger]

Patriotism is the love and gratitude for one's country. Nationalism is the claim that one's country is superior to others, blind devotion to his/her country, and hate towards other countries and their supporters. Generally most 9/11 fanatics are indeed nationalists hiding under innocent patriotism.

Can't agree Redacrouse. I think people have enough sense to see the gap between arrogance and self respect. Not that I am a flag waver. Richard Branson can brandish the UNION JACK at the drop of a hat. Then of course he is a TAX EXILE......Rule Britannia !! Workers make up some 95% of advanced capitalist societies. Surely they must embrace and define what a nation is--not some rabid politician or RUPERT MURDOCH...i CERTAINLY SHARE YOURS AND OTHERS DISTASTE OF NOTIONS OF SUPERIORITY. Both ugly and moronic. It becomes more of a serious matter when the US/ NATO or EU are prowling like wolves at the gate and globalization is in the air.