Democracy in Communism and Socialism

[RebeldePorLaPAZ]

I decided to post this up because my Spanish teacher kind of pist me off today. Out of know where my teacher just starts saying that every communist country in every time period was corrupted because of its leaders. So blah blah blah, there goes the argument. But that’s not the point, it got me thinking, well if everybody seems to want to point out that a dictatorship is bad than what would you say about communism if it worked under democracy? I’m not sure if anybody brought this up before but is this possible to work out? I’ve heard before from people that it can’t work out because that’s not what communism is but on the other hand these were people that don’t know anything about the philosophy. So the argument with my teacher ended like this, “You can keep criticizing every form of communism that ever existed because of its failure to live up to its actual potential, or you can look at why they didn’t get there. Now tell me this, how do you think Cuba would be today if it never brought Soviet missiles into there country? How would Cuba be today if there wasn’t a blockade and trade embargo set on the country? Are you going to tell me that if it was thriving economically; which is what communism is suppose thrive in as well as industry, that it would still represent a failure to live up to what communism is? If so, than you look at communism in general only by its failures and not by its main purpose.” She then said she would like to debate it with me some other time when she was the one that brought it up.

[Bradyman]

I certainly believe that democracy works under communism. Keep in mind that the economy and industry are supposed to be democratically controlled by the people under such a system, not by a beauracracy or a dictator. I believe that all the "founders" of communism, Marx and Engels believed that a democracy was the only necessary form of government for communism. I think that communism works in no other way than in democracy (or some have suggested demarchy).

The idea of a dictator or an elite group violate the fundamental concepts of communism, the idea of a classless society. Therefore, a government, controlled truly by the people, where no one person can amass any more power than anyone else is the only way.

To quote Leon Trotsky, "socialism needs democracy like the human body needs oxygen."

[CompadreGuerrillera]

Democracy not only is an important part of communism, COMMUNISM and DEMOCRACY should be as one. Rule of the people. It is these fake "democracies" or republics that follow Fascist authoritarian principles. these are not democracies, there are no currently existing democracies in the world. Every pseudo-democracy oppresses the people to a certain degree, as long as ONE person is oppressed, ONE child is hungry, it should not be called a democracy. Communism IS democracy in its purist form. everyother democracy has been limited!
ppl who will tell u democracy is not communism are full of shit authoritarians who directly betray revolutionarie principles.

democracy means rule of the people. communism is rule of the people(people meaining EVERYONE, its supposed to be a society with no elite class, where everyone has a say in gov't)

[Blackberry]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 01:07 PM
To quote Leon Trotsky, "socialism needs democracy like the human body needs oxygen."
Good old Trotsky. Never ceases to amaze me. In the 10th Party Congress, 1921, he said:

"They [the workers' opposition] have come out with dangerous slogans. They have made a fetish of democratic principles. They have placed the workers' right to elect representatives above the party. As if the Party were not entitled to assert its dictatorship even if that dictatorship clashed with the passing moods of the workers' democracy! . . The Party is obliged to maintain its dictatorship . . . regardless of temporary vacillations even in the working class . . . The dictatorship does not base itself at every moment on the formal principle of a workers' democracy."

Ahem. Democracy?


And another "democratic" quote in Trotsky's speech 30. March 1920 at the 9th Party Congress:

"If we seriously speak of planned economy, which is to acquire its unity of purpose from the center, when labor forces are assigned in accordance with the economic plan at the given stage of developement, the working masses cannot be left wandering all over Russia. They must be thrown here and there, appointed, commanded, just like soldiers".
In the same speech, he says "Deserters from labour ought to to be formed into punitive battalions or put into concentration camps".

[redstar2000]

Comrade James nails the central point.

What your Spanish teacher calls "communism" is, in fact, the efforts of 20th century Leninist parties to implement socialism in countries where the working class was a small minority of the total population.

They began as dictatorships over the peasant majority and quickly moved on to become dictatorships over their working class supporters.

What Marx and Engels expected was working class revolutions in advanced capitalist countries with working class majorities.

Until that happens, we simply have no way of knowing how democratic communism will be...but at a minimum, it ought to be far more democratic than any human society seen so far. The "ruling class" will be the overwhelming majority of the population.

Your Spanish teacher probably doesn't even know the word "Leninism" or what it means...but that's what she's really criticizing.

She's right.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[crazy comie]

comunism is not communism with out democracy.

[RebeldePorLaPAZ]

Okay, I see what ya' saying.

Here's something funny that happend. During this argument with my Spanish teacher yesterday she made a connection to the Nazi Party and socialism in general. She said, "Did you know that socialism is the same thing that the Nazi's were?" I'm looking at here like what the fuck? She went on saying that the Nazi's used to be called the German Socialist Party or something like that and then changed to the Nazi Party. So I told her that I knew that but that just because they used to be the socialist party didn't mean they were socialist. In practice they weren't socialist, and when they were the Nazi party they weren't but she replied, "Still, you don't get it, Being a Nazi is the same thing as being a socialist, and being a socialist is the same thing as being a Nazi." :lol:


hey redstar2000, i'm on your site right now, just want to say i like it a lot. :)
i plan on making a similar site to yours but i would like to read more before i do so, its in my head right now :rolleyes:

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 11:28 PM
Okay, I see what ya' saying.

Here's something funny that happend. During this argument with my Spanish teacher yesterday she made a connection to the Nazi Party and socialism in general. She said, "Did you know that socialism is the same thing that the Nazi's were?" I'm looking at here like what the fuck? She went on saying that the Nazi's used to be called the German Socialist Party or something like that and then changed to the Nazi Party. So I told her that I knew that but that just because they used to be the socialist party didn't mean they were socialist. In practice they weren't socialist, and when they were the Nazi party they weren't but she replied, "Still, you don't get it, Being a Nazi is the same thing as being a socialist, and being a socialist is the same thing as being a Nazi." :lol:


hey redstar2000, i'm on your site right now, just want to say i like it a lot. :)
i plan on making a similar site to yours but i would like to read more before i do so, its in my head right now :rolleyes:
Tell the dumb ***** to shut the fuck up and read a history book. Point out the small detalis like how the Nazi's had murdered and purged socialists. Point out that Hitler had initially been employed by the German government to investigate the National Socialist Party, but corrupted it and became its leader, changed it policys and tactics, into a completely unrecognisable ideology. Tell her that this has been well documented in the past and that the overwhelming opinion of competant historians is that Hitler created a hard right wing government which was the ideological oppersit of socialism.

In short tell the dumb cow to read a history book before spewing her ignorance.

[crazy comie]

They where " natinal socialists" but no socialist can be a nationalist so they where not socialists.

[Soviet power supreme]

What do you mean by democracy?Should every society be like the Athena was or like the western countries are?

[crazy comie]

Democracy would be the rule of the mases not the few

[Soviet power supreme]

Democracy would be the rule of the mases not the few

How do we do this?

Athen was small city in ancient Greece.People made decisions at the market places.What about big cities?All people in Tokio gather in a huge stadium and vote?

[Misodoctakleidist]

i find it quite amusing when capitalist accuse communism of being undemocratic

in america, the most capitalist country, the people have two choices in the presidential election; a right-wing republican or a right-wing democrat. How can anyone seriously claim thats democratic? They might as well do-away with elections and establish a one party state.

btw democracy is "the rule of the people" and using other "democracies" as templates is pointless.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Marxism-Leninism is democratic!
It's rule by the people.
It's far more democratic than capitalism which concentrates money and power in teh hands of few, while enslaving the working class.
The most useful debate tool agaisnt capitalsim is revealing to them the horrors of modern, post-WWII imperialism perpetrated against prominent leftist movements in the third world by Americans. Get some Chomsky books, politely present the atrocities to the Americans, and the capies will never again condone any foreign actions by this country.
Eventualy, you can introduce to them the clear and obvious, yet hard-to-accept-truth that capitalism is soley to blame for imperialism and exploitation.
Hatred of capitalism will open up new thoughts to these people.
They'll suddenly loose the chains of their repressive bourgeois mentality.
They'll quickly conclude taht teh obvious answer is communism.
You may not want to try this with your teacher, but if you feel that she's asking for a debate, then give it to her.

[Hawker]

Comrade Juju(I'm use to your old name)tell your teacher that she's more ignorant that a hillbilly and she eat's government propoganda like a rodent and a block of cheese.She has absolutely no idea what Communism and Socialism is.

[crazy comie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 03:06 AM
she's more ignorant that a hillbilly and she eat's government propoganda like a rodent and a block of cheese.She has absolutely no idea what Communism and Socialism is.
That is true

[secret buddha]

In resposnse to your teacher's ignorance, show her the "linear political spectrum". Draw a line, on the left side of the line write the word SOCIALIST, on the Right side of the line write FACIST (NAZI). close to the socialist side, write Liberal Democrat (US Govnt) And close to the Facist side write Conservative Republican (US Govnt). show her the opposite sides of the spectrum. Its important that you keep in mind, hoever, that the more radical that the fringes of the spectrum get, the more of a circle the spectrum becomes (as opposed to linear). It is possible that the fringe elements on each side can hold opposite beliefs, but see the same means to their own solution. Hope this makes sense. Being an American :( , I really have to work to keep my sanity.

[redstar2000]

It's important that you keep in mind, however, that the more radical that the fringes of the spectrum get, the more of a circle the spectrum becomes (as opposed to linear).

No, that's not true. See the thread on this subject on this page.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[crazy comie]

yhea redstar is right on that