Vietnam

[Mythbuster]

I was wearing my hammer and sickle tee today and think I offended a few people from Vietnam at the nail salon my mom was at.


I can understand why they have a negative view of communism, but it did make me think about my own beliefs.

I don't fully understand why something like a hammer and sickle shirt could be so offensive to the Vietmanies. Since they're from Vietnam, they obviously experienced negativities.

What are your thoughts on Vietnam?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Most refugees from socialist countries are counterrevolutions who fled because they didn't agree with the system or had a stake in capital.Very rarely do these peoples opinions matter because they are capitalist to begin with.

[The Stalinator]

Most refugees from socialist countries are counterrevolutions who fled because they didn't agree with the system or had a stake in capital.Very rarely do these peoples opinions matter because they are capitalist to begin with.

It's either this or they get their impression of communism from the capitalists who continue to run their formerly revolutionary country in the name of Marxism-Leninism. (which is pretty saddening -- why do they even do that?)

[Commissar Rykov]

Most refugees from socialist countries are counterrevolutions who fled because they didn't agree with the system or had a stake in capital.Very rarely do these peoples opinions matter because they are capitalist to begin with.
^This. I can't tell you how many Cuban Refugees I have met who start their stories with how much land or money their family owned and how that terrible Fidel ended their monopoly over the island while they fled to the USA. Of course they don't admit why the USA gave them a free ride to Florida in the first place.

[Geiseric]

implying people don't leave countries because of injustices done to them by capitalists, and the only chance of help comes from marxist leninist scumbags who would regularly sell out the proletariat.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Not all South Vietnamese refugees left Vietnam because they were bourgeois ideologues. Nor is the current Vietnamese government all that proletarian in reality. Many Vietnamese refugees were actually incredibly poor or lower-middle class, or even rural ethnic groups which had been exploited by the US government to fight the VC and NVA.

I think there are some serious flawed policies which the Vietnamese government pursued when it won. This isn't to say that the South Vietnamese government or the US government was any better or less repressive of course but the NV had serious flaws too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Hu%E1%BA%BF

Equating the members of the Vietnamese American community with some Bay of Pigs-era Cuban American bourgeois without recognizing the huge mistakes made by the Vietnamese is unfair to Vietnamese Americans. It also is very unfair to the poor tribal communities which the US used as mercenaries in Laos and Vietnam to pretend that the Laotian and Vietnamese governments were not (and are still not) unfairly repressive towards those communities. The Montagnards and Hmong didn't fight the Vietnamese because they were capitalists-on the contrary, they were rural farmers deep in the jungle. It would be a joke to call them bourgeois, yet when they won the new Vietnamese and Laotian government treated these minorities very badly. In fact both governments still do repress these minorities, as well as others. Lastly, the current Vietnamese government remains both incredibly corrupt and bourgeois, so it should not be of any surprise that the state there uses repressive tactics against its people just as much as any other. Since it took over South Vietnam, the economic inequality between the proletariat and the bourgeois has continued as has economic privilege for those connected to power.

[unfriendly]

Most refugees from socialist countries are counterrevolutions who fled because they didn't agree with the system or had a stake in capital.Very rarely do these peoples opinions matter because they are capitalist to begin with.

Woah, it is NOT at ALL REMOTELY OKAY to say that the opinions of people you have privilege over "don't matter" because they're "capitalist". Do you realize that you just said that the opinions of refugees/immigrants from countries whose regimes call themselves "communist" VERY RARELY MATTER? SERIOUSLY??

It's not like every immigrant from Vietnam/the USSR/whatever place did it just because they disagree politically with the choices that their governments make. It's not like everyone can just pick right the fuck up and move to a different country that speaks a different language and has a different culture where -- dear god, where people say terrible things like you just did. Way to silence EVERY SINGLE PERSON who's been harmed in the name of a political ideology you endorse, right there.

To the topic creator:

Another thing I want to point out here in addition to Sinister Cultural Marxist's post is that as someone who (I assume, correct me if I'm wrong) has never lived under a communist dictatorship, you need to be really careful about using imagery that real life people have been oppressed in the name of. It sounds like you're doing it, like you took it seriously that you made people uncomfortable -- which is good.

It's not about whether they're valid in feeling that way -- and they are -- it's about what you want to communicate. If what you're doing makes people you have privilege over feel uncomfortable then DON'T DO IT - seriously. It's not okay when a fascist waltzes in with a swastika tattoo, and it's not okay when a communist walks in with a hammer and sickle. Communist regimes have committed and endorsed genocides. If you're going to call yourself a communist you need to be REALLY FUCKING CONSCIOUS of that because it's a really big deal.

(With the disclaimer that I am white and have never left the United States.)

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Woah, it is NOT at ALL REMOTELY OKAY to say that the opinions of people you have privilege over "don't matter" because they're "capitalist". Do you realize that you just said that the opinions of refugees/immigrants from countries whose regimes call themselves "communist" VERY RARELY MATTER? SERIOUSLY??

It's not like every immigrant from Vietnam/the USSR/whatever place did it just because they disagree politically with the choices that their governments make. It's not like everyone can just pick right the fuck up and move to a different country that speaks a different language and has a different culture where -- dear god, where people say terrible things like you just did. Way to silence EVERY SINGLE PERSON who's been harmed in the name of a political ideology you endorse, right there.

To the topic creator:

Another thing I want to point out here in addition to Sinister Cultural Marxist's post is that as someone who (I assume, correct me if I'm wrong) has never lived under a communist dictatorship, you need to be really careful about using imagery that real life people have been oppressed in the name of. It sounds like you're doing it, like you took it seriously that you made people uncomfortable -- which is good.

It's not about whether they're valid in feeling that way -- and they are -- it's about what you want to communicate. If what you're doing makes people you have privilege over feel uncomfortable then DON'T DO IT - seriously. It's not okay when a fascist waltzes in with a swastika tattoo, and it's not okay when a communist walks in with a hammer and sickle. Communist regimes have committed and endorsed genocides. If you're going to call yourself a communist you need to be REALLY FUCKING CONSCIOUS of that because it's a really big deal.

(With the disclaimer that I am white and have never left the United States.)

Dude....you sound like a capitalist.

[unfriendly]

I... wha... bwuh. I don't even know how I can respond to that. Is everyone who acknowledges that a communist regime has ever done anything bad a capitalist? If it helps you sleep at night I think capitalism is a crock of shit and I've put a lot of work into that idea. I just also don't believe in dismissing... you know, every Vietnamese-American when they talk about the ways that that particular ideology has been harmful to them.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I... wha... bwuh. I don't even know how I can respond to that. Is everyone who acknowledges that a communist regime has ever done anything bad a capitalist? If it helps you sleep at night I think capitalism is a crock of shit and I've put a lot of work into that idea. I just also don't believe in dismissing... you know, every Vietnamese-American when they talk about the ways that that particular ideology has been harmful to them.

Most communist regimes (with the exception of Pol Pot and Stalin who either weren't socialist or barely socialist) are not as bad as their capitalist counterparts;they try hard to provide for their people and only enact regressive laws when revisionism and imperialist pressure is added.

I never said I dismissed every refugee but a great deal of them have claims that are bullshit which involve them pissing and moaning over their land and money.

[unfriendly]

Most communist regimes (with the exception of Pol Pot and Stalin who either weren't socialist or barely socialist) are not as bad as their capitalist counterparts;they try hard to provide for their people and only enact regressive laws when revisionism and imperialist pressure is added.

I never said I dismissed every refugee but a great deal of them have claims that are bullshit which involve them pissing and moaning over their land and money.

I'd hardly hold capitalist regimes as a beacon of all that is good in the world. If you're saying "not as bad as a capitalist regime" like it's some kind of accomplishment I don't know what to tell you there at all at all. Whether socialist regimes have historically been as bad as capitalist ones I can't say (because, you know, that's subjective and I'm a white person who's never been outside of the United States) but

okay, is US imperialism bad? yes, of course. has bad stuff happened in communist countries because of US intervention? yes.

HOWEVER

communist regimes have done bad things. People have suffered, died, been through genocides because of policies of communist regimes. This is FACT. As a result, communist imagery carries an extremely negative connotation to a lot of people, and if you make no effort to distance yourself from that you are replicating the same dynamics.

and it's still extremely racist to say that "a great deal of refugees" are well-off capitalists who are "just" upset at losing their land and whose opinions therefore don't matter.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I'd hardly hold capitalist regimes as a beacon of all that is good in the world. If you're saying "not as bad as a capitalist regime" like it's some kind of accomplishment I don't know what to tell you there at all at all. Whether socialist regimes have historically been as bad as capitalist ones I can't say (because, you know, that's subjective and I'm a white person who's never been outside of the United States) but

okay, is US imperialism bad? yes, of course. has bad stuff happened in communist countries because of US intervention? yes.

HOWEVER

communist regimes have done bad things. People have suffered, died, been through genocides because of policies of communist regimes. This is FACT. As a result, communist imagery carries an extremely negative connotation to a lot of people, and if you make no effort to distance yourself from that you are replicating the same dynamics.

and it's still extremely racist to say that "a great deal of refugees" are well-off capitalists who are just upset at losing their land and whose opinions therefore don't matter.

#1: No socialist regime has ever committed anything which comes close to genocide.

#2: It is not at all "racy" to simply tell the truth and say that a great deal of refugees from socialist or formerly socialist countries are capitalists.It is a statement of fact which is proved by their rhetoric and ideology.

#3: Your post has made me want to wear my Che shirt....so no,I will not distance myself from the symbols of progress.

[unfriendly]

#1: No socialist regime has ever committed anything which comes close to genocide.

#2: It is not at all "racy" to simply tell the truth and say that a great deal of refugees from socialist or formerly socialist countries are capitalists.It is a statement of fact which is proved by their rhetoric and ideology.

#3: Your post has made me want to wear my Che shirt....so no,I will not distance myself from the symbols of progress.

1. The Hmong in Vietnam and Miskitia in Nicaragua come to mind immediately.

2. "This extremely terrible generalization I made about why you shouldn't listen to people is okay because it's TRUE" -- come the fuck on, for real? What rhetoric? What ideology? There is no refugee-from-a-communist-country "ideology". With rare exception, people who just move halfway across the world don't do it because of "rhetoric and ideology". You're making extremely hurtful generalizations about a diverse group of people. I don't understand how this is okay at all at all at all?

3. Okay, I don't care. I have no personal stake in this because as I've said numerous times I'm a white person who's never left the US. You're not going to hurt me or bother me in any way by wearing a Che t-shirt. You've basically been told that your use of imagery is potentially hurtful to people and your reaction is to do it more, and that is your problem and not mine. I'd like to ask you what the difference is, though, between that and wearing a swastika tattoo for shock value? "My ideology is good and that other one isn't" isn't a valid response because that isn't immediately obvious to all marginalized people who see you wearing it. I'm not saying distance yourself from the imagery (although in Che's case I'd be careful but that's an argument for another time), I'm saying if you're going to use it do it in such a way that it will be immediately obvious that you don't agree with terrible things that communist regimes have done to people and aren't just wearing it to make people uncomfortable. Although, since you just stated that you're doing it explicitly to make people uncomfortable...

[TheGodlessUtopian]

#1: Still isn't anything which comes close to genocide and in the case of the Miskitia I do not have any sympathies for religious zealots.

#2: Ideology and rhetoric which is pro-capitalist...see previous statements

[unfriendly]

#1: Still isn't anything which comes close to genocide and in the case of the Miskitia I do not have any sympathies for religious zealots.

#2: Ideology and rhetoric which is pro-capitalist...see previous statements

1. There you go again with the "everyone in Miskitia is a religious zealot" thing -- what are you even referring to, and what's the difference between you and people who use the exact same rhetoric to justify US imperialism in the middle east, and who the fuck are you to decide what genocides matter or not?

2. No. You're making generalizations. Racist as fuck generalizations. You can repeat them all you want (although I'd prefer if you didn't).

[TheGodlessUtopian]

1. There you go again with the "everyone in Miskitia is a religious zealot" thing -- what are you even referring to, and what's the difference between you and people who use the exact same rhetoric to justify US imperialism in the middle east, and who the fuck are you to decide what genocides matter or not?

2. No. You're making generalizations. Racist as fuck generalizations. You can repeat them all you want (although I'd prefer if you didn't).

#1: There you go again with putting words in my mouth.And you are getting way off track here:justifying? Genocide? None of these things have happened.

#2: Since you seem to be hard of hearing I shall repeat it: I am simply making a very truthful statement-"refugees" from socialist or formerly socialist countries are often times capitalist.It is as simple as that.

I have decided that you are obviously a bourgeois apologist so I am going to cease this useless banter.

[unfriendly]

#1: There you go again with putting words in my mouth.And you are getting way off track here:justifying? Genocide? None of these things have happened.

#2: Since you seem to be hard of hearing I shall repeat it: I am simply making a very truthful statement-"refugees" from socialist or formerly socialist countries are often times capitalist.It is as simple as that.

I have decided that you are obviously a bourgeois apologist so I am going to cease this useless banter.

1. No. Seriously. What is the difference between you justifying abuses towards Miskitia with "they're all religious zealots" and the justifying abuses towards Iraq with "they're all religious zealots". Really. Do tell.

2. As a matter of fact I actually do have problems hearing, and fuck you for using that in a derogatory way. We are on the internet where my ability to hear is completely irrelivant because I can read your racist, ableist crap.

And I'd really like it if you could point me to where in this conversation I apologized for, defended, or otherwise supported class stratification? I don't, I think it's crap. It's just you're being oppressive too.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

To your hearing problem: I apologize,in hindsight it was rude of me,so I am sorry to you and anyone else that I may have offended.

To everything else in your statement: bullshit-complete and utter bullshit. :lol:

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Vietnam is not a socialist country. It is fully state-capitalist. Hell, they even do joint military exercises with the US (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/1136784/1/.html)nowadays. I know a couple of Vietnamese guys studying in the US whose parents are big in the agricultural machinery industry and they basically epitomize the bourgeois individual; constantly going shopping, designer jeans, flashing wads of cash, etc. On the other hand, not every Vietnamese or Cuban-American is anti-communist either. Assuming so would be a stupid thing to do.

[citizen of industry]

They wouldn't be disappointed I'm sure if you had walked in wearing a big American Flag T-shirt. Now how many Vietnamese did the US and their ARVN buddies kill in Vietnam? 4 million, more? How many cities did they bomb, how many children did they rape and kill? The US used more explosives on Vietnam than they did in WWII. And you know, the revolution was democratic, originally. A date was set to vote on the unification of the country, the majority of the country was in favor of communism, so the US had to go in, set up a capitalist government under a right-wing catholic who had been living in the US (who had a nasty little habit of killing monks), and basically destroy the entire nation. Go to Vietnam with a big Stars and Stripes T-shirt, and go talk to some of the people who lived there during the war, and see what their reaction is. The US is responsible for so much war and global devastation it's unbelievable.

Also, wear whatever the hell you want. If someone wants to sport a swatstika tattoo fine. It's their body. If you want to wear a hammer and sickle t-shirt, go ahead.

[RedMarxist]

My mom just so happens to go to a Vietnamese owned nail salon too-what a coincidence.

What I will say is that their experience involved torture by the North Vietnamese after the military defeat of the South Vietnamese. This person fled, but a loved one was forced to stay in the country for YEARS enduring extreme torture.

So no, they are not all "Bourgeois Capitalists." how ignorant and dumb to say such a horrible thing.

Stop trying to defend the horrific atrocities of a so called "Socialist state."

[Smyg]

Also, wear whatever the hell you want. If someone wants to sport a swatstika tattoo fine. It's their body. If you want to wear a hammer and sickle t-shirt, go ahead.

Allow public brandishing on swastikas? No thank you.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Allow public brandishing on swastikas? No thank you.

How else are we supposed to tell meatheaded fascists apart from everyone with a functioning brain? :rolleyes: I think the neonazi habit of tattooing themselves until they are blue in the face (no pun intended) is a useful tool in distinguishing the degenerates from everyone else.

Also it would kind of suck for Hindus, buddhists, jains and native americans if someone decided to ban swastikas :P you do realize that nazis dont have a monopoly on that symbol right? What are you going to do, close Hindu and Jain owned businesses if they have a shrine or make anyone with religious tattoos cover up?


A date was set to vote on the unification of the country, the majority of the country was in favor of communism, so the US had to go in, set up a capitalist government under a right-wing catholic who had been living in the US (who had a nasty little habit of killing monks), and basically destroy the entire nation. Go to Vietnam with a big Stars and Stripes T-shirt, and go talk to some of the people who lived there during the war, and see what their reaction is. The US is responsible for so much war and global devastation it's unbelievable.

Diem was a dick and America did horrible things during the Vietnam war but that's not relevant to the question of whether the NVA also did bad things. Unless there's someone else here, I didn't see anyone defending Diem or the USA. Merely a criticism of that particular Republic's government.

[Smyg]

Also it would kind of suck for Hindus, buddhists, jains and native americans if someone decided to ban swastikas :P you do realize that nazis dont have a monopoly on that symbol right? What are you going to do, close Hindu and Jain owned businesses if they have a shrine or make anyone with religious tattoos cover up?


There is a distinct difference between a White supremacist wearing a swastika, and a Buddhist/Hinduist/other wearing one.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Ignore them!You can even wear a shirt saying "I am a capitalist and I support communist" or whatever.It is your decision to pick what to wear.You have a freedom at this!

[citizen of industry]

Allow public brandishing on swastikas? No thank you.

Allow curtailing of freedom of expression? No thank you! The swatstika gets banned, the hammer and sickle does too.


Diem was a dick and America did horrible things during the Vietnam war but that's not relevant to the question of whether the NVA also did bad things. Unless there's someone else here, I didn't see anyone defending Diem or the USA. Merely a criticism of that particular Republic's government.


No, the discussion is whether or not a hammer and sickle T-shirt is acceptable in a hair salon. 1) Yes, freedom of expression - I can wear whatever the fuck I want. 2) Cultural insensitivity - S. Vietnamese who experienced maltreatment by communists might be offended by the T-shirt. Okay. 48,000 American soldiers died while exterminating 4,000,000 or more people, several cities and an entire economy. So to be told not to wear a particular T-shirt is shite. If the S. Vietnamese workers who escaped are appreciating their life in the US, than can surely appreciate the laws that go with it, such as freedom to wear what you want.

And that constitutional right is itself a joke in our capitalist wonderland - we can't wear what we want in school, in a company, during election campaigns (free speech zones - WTF!), in public etc. We are completely free to wear whatever we want in our own homes, assuming we have private property.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Vietnam is not a socialist country. It is fully state-capitalist. Hell, they even do joint military exercises with the US (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/1136784/1/.html)nowadays. I know a couple of Vietnamese guys studying in the US whose parents are big in the agricultural machinery industry and they basically epitomize the bourgeois individual; constantly going shopping, designer jeans, flashing wads of cash, etc. On the other hand, not every Vietnamese or Cuban-American is anti-communist either. Assuming so would be a stupid thing to do.

I was referring to the beginnings of socialist Vietnam,not the modern day state.To my understanding they were socialist after they won the war but strayed some years after.

@RedMarxist: That is unfortunate to hear of your parents,but war is never pleasant.Your parents lived in a country where a civil war was happening and one never knew who may or may not be a spy.It is still awful what the North did but the U.S and thei allies were doing the exact same thing.Again,however,I will say that I have said that many refugees from socialist or formerly socialist states are capitalists but not all of them.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

No, the discussion is whether or not a hammer and sickle T-shirt is acceptable in a hair salon. 1) Yes, freedom of expression - I can wear whatever the fuck I want. 2) Cultural insensitivity - S. Vietnamese who experienced maltreatment by communists might be offended by the T-shirt. Okay. 48,000 American soldiers died while exterminating 4,000,000 or more people, several cities and an entire economy. So to be told not to wear a particular T-shirt is shite. If the S. Vietnamese workers who escaped are appreciating their life in the US, than can surely appreciate the laws that go with it, such as freedom to wear what you want.

And that constitutional right is itself a joke in our capitalist wonderland - we can't wear what we want in school, in a company, during election campaigns (free speech zones - WTF!), in public etc. We are completely free to wear whatever we want in our own homes, assuming we have private property.

He should not be banned from doing it obviously but he can show some etiquette. Just understand that the Vietnamese have many raw feelings about that part of history.


There is a distinct difference between a White supremacist wearing a swastika, and a Buddhist/Hinduist/other wearing one.

Obviously, but it's hard to legislate that.


I was referring to the beginnings of socialist Vietnam,not the modern day state.To my understanding they were socialist after they won the war but strayed some years after.

@RedMarxist: That is unfortunate to hear of your parents,but war is never pleasant.Your parents lived in a country where a civil war was happening and one never knew who may or may not be a spy.It is still awful what the North did but the U.S and thei allies were doing the exact same thing.Again,however,I will say that I have said that many refugees from socialist or formerly socialist states are capitalists but not all of them.

Actually RedMarxist wasn't talking about his parents but people his parents knew. There are many Vietnamese around where I live and their experience is a part of the culture so I know the kind of folks he's talking about.

Vietnam was never really a fully socialist state, and "uncle ho" was more of a nationalist than a leninist though he was still committed to building a revolutionary state, but he was dead several years before the war ended and the Vietnamese already showed some quite reactionary elements even before his death. But it got worse afterwards for sure-once the victory for the north had been completed for instance, ethnic minorities who had sided with the Americans like the Hmong were horribly treated by the Vietnamese and Laotian governments and are still mistreated by both. Yes, these groups sided with the Americans, but any real Communist would ask (1) the structural question of why they sided with the Americans and (2) the structural solution of how to bring this population into the Socialist fold without repressing them, and perhaps most importantly, (3) collective punishment is rarely if ever a good idea or justified.

I agree that the South Vietnamese government was just as bad if not much worse, as was US activity, but I can sympathize with any person of Vietnamese origin who resents the actions of the North. You are right that some of them were Capitalists, and many have opened businesses while here, but they are almost always small businesses and they are not people who run the "commanding heights" of the economy and certainly the majority of those people did not necessarily commit actual legal crimes.

[Wanted Man]

Emigrant groups are not some monolithic group with the same class backgrounds and the same opinions. Although of course it is pretty obvious that most Vietnamese in the US would not be pro-communist at all. On the other hand, this little Vietnamese shop recently opened up in my city where they proudly fly this flag:

http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Geography_and_History/International_Flags/vietnam.gif

Win!

[Jimmie Higgins]

Allow curtailing of freedom of expression? No thank you! The swatstika gets banned, the hammer and sickle does too. I agreed with your main point in that first post, but I strongly disagree with being casual about someone walking down the street with nazi shit on. I grew up in an area with some white power gangs - these guys weren't even ideologically racists, they were just a causally racist street gang and they adopted the symbol, I'm sure, to intimidate people. The real ideological nazis use they symbol that way too. Spray it on a synagogue or school or in a workplace and it's clearly something designed to "remind" people of the "natural" order of society (white supremacy in their view).

Personally I wouldn't wear the hammer and sickle - well because I'm not a patriotic Russian from 1960. No, personally, I see it as a national symbol, not a symbol of socialism and I have no interest in tying my attempts to promote a socialist alternative with a dead non-socialist country. I think a fist (solidarity) the globe and all sorts of other traditional symbols from our movements work fine for t-shirts. But if someone does think the USSR is something to aspire to and wants to wear those shirts, hold your ground, explain your politics if someone tells you to take it off.

[Skammunist]

Most refugees from socialist countries are counterrevolutions who fled because they didn't agree with the system or had a stake in capital.Very rarely do these peoples opinions matter because they are capitalist to begin with.

Can anybody confirm if this is true or not? That most Vietnamese American immigrants were/are capitalists?

As far as I know, and I might be wrong, the vast majority of Vietnamese immigrants that escaped were actually lower middle class to very poor.

[Commissar Rykov]

Can anybody confirm if this is true or not? That most Vietnamese American immigrants were/are capitalists?

As far as I know, and I might be wrong, the vast majority of Vietnamese immigrants that escaped were actually lower middle class to very poor.
Most of those people got left behind it was mostly Urban Elites that the Americans were shuttling out of the Saigon Embassy. The Montagnards aka Degar couldn't afford to leave their mountain villages to run to American Helicopters to be saved instead they were left behind without even a thank you.

[Skammunist]

Let me be more specific, can anybody confirm that the vast majority of the millions of Vietnamese, Cambodian, and Laos boat people were actually capitalist and not lower middle class to poor working class?

[unfriendly]

Allow curtailing of freedom of expression? No thank you! The swatstika gets banned, the hammer and sickle does too.


Diem was a dick and America did horrible things during the Vietnam war but that's not relevant to the question of whether the NVA also did bad things. Unless there's someone else here, I didn't see anyone defending Diem or the USA. Merely a criticism of that particular Republic's government.


No, the discussion is whether or not a hammer and sickle T-shirt is acceptable in a hair salon. 1) Yes, freedom of expression - I can wear whatever the fuck I want. 2) Cultural insensitivity - S. Vietnamese who experienced maltreatment by communists might be offended by the T-shirt. Okay. 48,000 American soldiers died while exterminating 4,000,000 or more people, several cities and an entire economy. So to be told not to wear a particular T-shirt is shite. If the S. Vietnamese workers who escaped are appreciating their life in the US, than can surely appreciate the laws that go with it, such as freedom to wear what you want.

And that constitutional right is itself a joke in our capitalist wonderland - we can't wear what we want in school, in a company, during election campaigns (free speech zones - WTF!), in public etc. We are completely free to wear whatever we want in our own homes, assuming we have private property.

So your argument, basically, is that 4,000,000 or more Vietnamese people, their country, economy, etc, were brutally destroyed by the United States and its liberal, imperialistic values. Therefore, Vietnamese people who come here (and their descendants and friends and families -- it's not like everyone just came here last week) should be "appreciating their life in the US"? Bomb them, burn them, and demand they be grateful? You are a disgusting, imperialistic, venomous little ghoul.

The US, its values, and its constitution are illegitimate. I didn't realize this was up for debate on a site that claims to be full of revolutionaries. Either you get to champion liberal values, or you fight for revolutionary change against them -- you can't have both. Vietnam was destroyed largely by the very values you're championing right now -- how about YOU show some cultural sensitivity.

[RedMarxist]

I have a quick question. When Ho Chi Mihn held elections to establish a unified [Socialist] Vietnamese state when the French were still there, were the election results "forced" and/or fixed so it would seem that most people would vote for the Communists? Wikipedia, cough cough said this.

Plus, was S. Vietnam an independent state, or was it a puppet country loyal to America?

Just got into an argument with my folks, who say I've been fed propaganda via the internet when I angrily said that America slaughtered 4 million Vietnamese, and that why should the nail salon people "enjoy their new life in America," as is that not hypocritical that a nation that bombed another nation into oblivion would give that same person from that nation a "chance?"

Huh, why should they enjoy America, (and even fight on S. Vietnam's side as loyal anti-Communists) after the same nation that allowed them to enjoy their new life killed so many of their countrymen on both sides?

[citizen of industry]

So your argument, basically, is that 4,000,000 or more Vietnamese people, their country, economy, etc, were brutally destroyed by the United States and its liberal, imperialistic values. Therefore, Vietnamese people who come here (and their descendants and friends and families -- it's not like everyone just came here last week) should be "appreciating their life in the US"? Bomb them, burn them, and demand they be grateful? You are a disgusting, imperialistic, venomous little ghoul.

The US, its values, and its constitution are illegitimate. I didn't realize this was up for debate on a site that claims to be full of revolutionaries. Either you get to champion liberal values, or you fight for revolutionary change against them -- you can't have both. Vietnam was destroyed largely by the very values you're championing right now -- how about YOU show some cultural sensitivity.

Um, no, did you even read my post? This one or the previous one? Do you value freedom of speech and expression? Apparently not. Do they fit into your vision of a future society? My point was that the US flag is a worse symbol of oppression than a hammer and sickle. That South Vietnamese citizens of the US, who are championing America and its values rather than socialist ones, should not be hypocrits and tell someone they shouldn't be wearing a particular T-shirt.

I'm surprised freedom of speech and freedom of expression are being debated by you. I assume when we fight for revolutionary change, we fight for complete democracy, in the end a free, stateless society. But apparently you disagree. You'd rather curtail the limited rights we have now in this oppressive society. You can't have your cake and eat it to.

And I don't cherish the hammer and sickle because it reminds me of the USSR - I prefer red stars, fists and the like as well. But people should be able to wear whatever they want, just be prepared to defend themselves and take flak if it happens to be offensive.

[citizen of industry]

I have a quick question. When Ho Chi Mihn held elections to establish a unified [Socialist] Vietnamese state when the French were still there, were the election results "forced" and/or fixed so it would seem that most people would vote for the Communists? Wikipedia, cough cough said this.

Plus, was S. Vietnam an independent state, or was it a puppet country loyal to America?

Just got into an argument with my folks, who say I've been fed propaganda via the internet when I angrily said that America slaughtered 4 million Vietnamese, and that why should the nail salon people "enjoy their new life in America," as is that not hypocritical that a nation that bombed another nation into oblivion would give that same person from that nation a "chance?"

Huh, why should they enjoy America, (and even fight on S. Vietnam's side as loyal anti-Communists) after the same nation that allowed them to enjoy their new life killed so many of their countrymen on both sides?


Chomsky has some good writings on the Vietnam War. I recommend reading Manufacturing Consent and Necessary Illusions. Here's some links: http://chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/chomskyin1282.html

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Chomsky/ChomOdon_SEAsia.html

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/1972----.htm

[unfriendly]

Um, no, did you even read my post? This one or the previous one? Do you value freedom of speech and expression? Apparently not. Do they fit into your vision of a future society? My point was that the US flag is a worse symbol of oppression than a hammer and sickle. That South Vietnamese citizens of the US, who are championing America and its values rather than socialist ones, should not be hypocrits and tell someone they shouldn't be wearing a particular T-shirt.

I'm surprised freedom of speech and freedom of expression are being debated by you. I assume when we fight for revolutionary change, we fight for complete democracy, in the end a free, stateless society. But apparently you disagree. You'd rather curtail the limited rights we have now in this oppressive society. You can't have your cake and eat it to.

And I don't cherish the hammer and sickle because it reminds me of the USSR - I prefer red stars, fists and the like as well. But people should be able to wear whatever they want, just be prepared to defend themselves and take flak if it happens to be offensive.

"Freedom of speech" is a liberal value. I'm not saying the government should step in and arrest everyone who wears offensive imagery. I'm saying you should show respect for other people and therefore shouldn't do it. There is a significant difference there, and I'm not sure how you got the former from the latter when I never said or even implied that I believe in any sort of state structure at all let alone one with the power to arrest people.

And I really wish you would stop making generalizations about Vietnamese people in the US that they are all South Vietnamese and championing America and its values. There is no political belief or ideology implied in being in the United States and from Vietnam or of Vietnamese descent. That's so fucking racist. Stop saying it.

Not every Vietnamese-American person can drop everything they're doing and call out some Western person wearing a hammer and sickle T-Shirt, and that's an extremely ridiculous thing to say -- I know that when I see someone wearing a symbol that's been used to oppress me I don't think, "Gee, I'm going to have an intellectually stimulating debate with this person." I think "I'd better fucking get out of here." When I add to that my privilege of speaking English fluently, as as my first language, and comfortably (and that many Vietnamese-Americans don't speak it at all), it seems utterly ridiculous to me to think that it's appropriate to expect every person who's marginalized and intimidated by you to calmly discuss it with you. Like, what the fuck is that. And on that note when someone who you oppress tells you their concern (which is a pretty significant expenditure of time and energy a lot of the time) the appropriate response is not to "defend yourself".

I don't fight for democracy at all at all at *all*. Democracy is some bullshit ideology that's been used to justify imperialism for centuries, and so no, I don't fight for democracy any more than I fight for, say, eugenics or manifest destiny.

[citizen of industry]

"Freedom of speech" is a liberal value. I'm not saying the government should step in and arrest everyone who wears offensive imagery. I'm saying you should show respect for other people and therefore shouldn't do it. There is a significant difference there, and I'm not sure how you got the former from the latter when I never said or even implied that I believe in any sort of state structure at all let alone one with the power to arrest people.

And I really wish you would stop making generalizations about Vietnamese people in the US that they are all South Vietnamese and championing America and its values. There is no political belief or ideology implied in being in the United States and from Vietnam or of Vietnamese descent. That's so fucking racist. Stop saying it.

Not every Vietnamese-American person can drop everything they're doing and call out some Western person wearing a hammer and sickle T-Shirt, and that's an extremely ridiculous thing to say -- I know that when I see someone wearing a symbol that's been used to oppress me I don't think, "Gee, I'm going to have an intellectually stimulating debate with this person." I think "I'd better fucking get out of here." When I add to that my privilege of speaking English fluently, as as my first language, and comfortably (and that many Vietnamese-Americans don't speak it at all), it seems utterly ridiculous to me to think that it's appropriate to expect every person who's marginalized and intimidated by you to calmly discuss it with you. Like, what the fuck is that. And on that note when someone who you oppress tells you their concern (which is a pretty significant expenditure of time and energy a lot of the time) the appropriate response is not to "defend yourself".

I don't fight for democracy at all at all at *all*. Democracy is some bullshit ideology that's been used to justify imperialism for centuries, and so no, I don't fight for democracy any more than I fight for, say, eugenics or manifest destiny.

I wasn't speaking for all Vietnamese people of descent in the US. I was speaking for the one's in that particular nail salon who decided to call out the thread-starter for his T-shirt. You are excessively defensive and are reading too much into my words. I'm an immigrant laborer in a multi-cultural family with a bi-racial child. I've often faced discrimination so I know the feeling, and I know the feeling of struggling to express myself in a second language as well.

"Democracy" has been used to justify imperialism, yes. But you forget capitalism has been a progressive force in history. It smashed feudalism, ended serfdom, and allows a individual priviledges under bourgeois law, an improvement on the former. It also greatly magnified the productive forces of society - socialized production in fact, and created the pre-conditions for socialism. The only problem is "freedom," as is known in this society, is freedom in the marketplace, and the wage slavery that supports it. It ignores economic conditions - freedom ends where the power to buy ends.

Democracy is not a bullshit ideology, and is not something that exists in the US. It is something that can only exist when capitalism doesn't exist. Wichever word you want to choose - "freedom," "democracy," it's semantics. What principles are we really discussing?

While we're at it, can you please educate me on the usage of the hammer and sickle in either Viet-Minh, NVA or NLF forces during the Vietnam conflict?

[foxlobo31]

yah i think democracy is not a BS idea at all because it helps alot in my country ( im from the philippines (yes it's not a rich country ) but where getting there!!:lol:

[redtex]

Most refugees from socialist countries are counterrevolutions who fled because they didn't agree with the system or had a stake in capital.Very rarely do these peoples opinions matter because they are capitalist to begin with.


and it's still extremely racist to say that "a great deal of refugees" are well-off capitalists who are "just" upset at losing their land and whose opinions therefore don't matter.

Unfriendly, while I agree with you on many things I think you are incorrect in calling the person a racist in this case. If s/he had said *all* or *most* Vietnamese are bad in some way, then that would be racist. S/he said most refugees from socialist countries were bad in some way. Refugees from socialist countries are not a race of people, therefore s/he is not a racist.

Even if you restrict the statement to Vietnamese refugees, it's still not a racist statement because s/he restricted it to a minority of Vietnamese, the refugees, because I believe most Vietnamese stayed in Vietnam.

I do get your point that we could try to be more sensitive to people who are offended by certain imagery, but I just think you're over-using the racist thing, and we should only call out actual racists for racism.

I like to consider myself an anti-racist, feminist, and a communist. I think I know what it's like to be discriminated against by racists. My spouse is of a different race than I and we have bi-racial children.

I don't want to argue with you and I will not. I just think your are incorrectly applying the term racist in this case.