Anyone else miss the Soviet Union? :(

[ComradeOmar]

Just Miss the ussr :(

[DarkPast]

Not really. It was a state capitalist country whose political elite never had the willingness or courage to remove themselves from their privileged, exploitative position and thus offer real socialism a chance to develop.

The only thing I do miss about the USSR is that it served as a balance to Western Imperialism. Though of course it
a) never was an equal to the West - economically, politically or even in terms of sheer military power and
b) committed imperialist acts of its own (though not nearly as many as the USA).

[thefinalmarch]

The fall of the Soviet Union was a vague ideological victory insofar as its collapse allowed for alternative views of socialism to be brought to the table, but it was a major defeat for the working class as its collapse meant that the conditions of the working class in the Former Soviet Union were considerably worse and the cost of living in these newly-independent states increased dramatically. As a result, there are now millions living in dire poverty and unable to afford basic supplies (food, etc.) and utilities in these states. Many of the gains made by the Soviet working class were eventually lost.

As the struggle for socialism is invariably tied to the struggle for the advancement of the conditions of the working class, the fall of the Soviet Union must ultimately be viewed negatively as a defeat for the workers.

I can't say I "miss" the USSR as I was never around to see it, but it is certain that if it were still in existence, the conditions of the working class within its borders would be greater than they are in the Russian Federation, et al. now. I think it's stupid, however, to argue for the return of the USSR today. The USSR was formed amidst unique conditions which simply do not exist today. Moreover, we shouldn't be arguing for second-best today when we can accomplish so much more.

[Delenda Carthago]

The best way for you to remember USSR today, is a country that you ve never visited.

[Jimmie Higgins]

No.

[CommunityBeliever]

Most revleft users aren't Russian and have no connection to the USSR to warrant any "missing" and they haven't had to suffer through the subsequent disaster known as the "Russian Federation," or they are otherwise an Anarchist or some other sort of ultra-leftist, so I am not at all surprised by all the no answers here.

[thefinalmarch]

Most revleft users aren't Russian and have no connection to the USSR to warrant any "missing" and they haven't had to suffer through the subsequent disaster known as the "Russian Federation," or they are otherwise an Anarchist or some other sort of ultra-leftist, so I am not at all surprised by all the no answers here.
So what, then, did you actually make of my post (I am an "ultra-leftist" of some variety) which explicitly expressed a negative attitude towards the fall of the USSR and which explicitly recognised the gains made by the Soviet working class during its existence?

Oh wait, you did actually read the thread, right?

[CommunityBeliever]

Oh wait, you did actually read the thread, right?

I read the thread. My comment was not directed towards you.

[thefinalmarch]

I read the thread. My comment was not directed towards you.
But, by virtue of me being an ultra-leftist, you expected me to answer 'no' to this question. You expressed a narrow-minded and dogmatic, sectarian point of view here.

[CommunityBeliever]

But, by virtue of me being an ultra-leftist, you expected me to answer 'no' to this question. You expressed a narrow-minded and dogmatic, sectarian point of view here. No. I said that is one cause of "no" answers here, another cause I mentioned is that most our users are American or English, not Russian, so they haven't had to suffer under the Russian federation.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Most revleft users aren't Russian and have no connection to the USSR to warrant any "missing" and they haven't had to suffer through the subsequent disaster known as the "Russian Federation," or they are otherwise an Anarchist or some other sort of ultra-leftist, so I am not at all surprised by all the no answers here.Yes, of course, not missing a regime that helped stifle revolution throughout the world, that divorced the socialist traddition - not to mention the Russian Revolution - from it's proletarian-democratic roots is obviously the same as being pro-capitalism:rolleyes:.

[FuzzypegX]

Yes, of course, not missing a regime that helped stifle revolution throughout the world, that divorced the socialist traddition - not to mention the Russian Revolution - from it's proletarian-democratic roots is obviously the same as being pro-capitalism:rolleyes:.

Again, that's not what he said. You're doing exactly the same kind of violence to his point that you are accusing him of doing to your own.

The Russian Federation was a retrograde development in comparison to the post-Stalin revisionist Soviet Union, just as this was a retrograde development in comparison to the S.U. under the genuine Bolshevik leadership of Lenin and Stalin. A number of Trotskyists recognize this first point, though not all and it is worth pointing out that several prominent Trots applauded the policies that were most important in restoring capitalism in the S.U., as in the case of Ernest Mandel's support for Perestroika.

Also, without wishing to get into a huge debate about the Comintern, the idea that it "stifled" revolution given that during the Stalin-era of the Comintern revolutions occurred in Korea, Vietnam and China, is frankly, silly. You might not agree with the direction in which those revolutions progressed, but you can't deny they occurred at all.

[CommunityBeliever]

Yes, of course, not missing a regime that helped stifle revolution throughout the world, that divorced the socialist traddition - not to mention the Russian Revolution - from it's proletarian-democratic roots is obviously the same as being pro-capitalism:rolleyes:. Yet like a capitalist you are only looking at the negative qualities of the first socialist state there. There was plenty to miss about it like being the first country to build socialism (at least until the Khrushchev revisionists), defeating the Nazis, resisting the U.S imperialists, being the first to go into space, and providing a much better living standard then the subsequent "Russian Federation."

[Jimmie Higgins]

Yet like a capitalist you are only looking at the negative qualities of the first socialist state there. There was plenty to miss about it like being the first country to build socialism (at least until the Khrushchev revisionists), defeating the Nazis, resisting the U.S imperialists, being the first to go into space, and providing a much better living standard then the subsequent "Russian Federation."I'm pretty sure capitalists don't criticize the USSR for not having worker's power and stiffing revolutions in other parts of the world.

As for the other points, social-democracies have reforms and are better than neo-liberalism as far a capitalism goes, but that's not socialism either.

The US sent people to space and claimed to defeat the NAZIs so, again, not much of an argument for the USSR being socialist in the Marxist sense.

[Smyg]

Only because the overhanging threat of nuclear war caused some pretty awesome bomb shelters to be built around here.

[Nox]

An enemy of my enemy is my friend.

The enemy of the USA is my friend.

The USSR is my friend.

[Luc]

There probably wouldn't be as many Nazis but thats about it.

[thefinalmarch]

An enemy of my enemy is my friend.

The enemy of the USA is my friend.

The USSR is my friend.
Oh. Seriously?

[Smyg]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

The enemy of the USA is my friend.

Therefore, the taliban are my friend... ?

[thefinalmarch]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

The enemy of the USA is my friend.

Therefore, the taliban are my friend... ?
This logic is actually that of several members on this forum.

[Thirsty Crow]

An enemy of my enemy is my friend.

The enemy of the USA is my friend.

The USSR is my friend.
I'm amazed at the profound political reasoning you've got going there.

[Kamos]

Well, I haven't lived during the time of the USSR, but I do regret its dissolution. Even in its worst times it was still better than what we have now.

[JoeySteel]

It's natural to feel that way comrade. We have lost a lot since then.

[W1N5T0N]

Believe me, if you had lived there, you would NOT want it back.
unless you were a stalinoid ML bootlicker apparatchik, that is.

[CommunityBeliever]

I'm pretty sure capitalists don't criticize the USSR for not having worker's power and stiffing revolutions in other parts of the world.The USSR eventually became social-imperialist and started prevent revolutions in a variety of places around the world. This doesn't mean that there was nothing to miss (for example, I miss the dream that Lenin had of a world wide federation of socialist republics), or that the Russian Federation is anything approaching an improvement.


Believe me, if you had lived there, you would NOT want it back.This is nonsense.

[Arlekino]

We can't bring time back. Sometimes I miss Soviet Union I think I had best days of my life yes is not perfect life. It give me pleasure go back to watch Soviet films, programs. All the time I talk with my husband about Soviet Union life, schools, jobs. Ah nostalgia:(

[rednordman]

1980s soviet union wasnt really that bad a place to live at all (after all, if you hate the authoritarian nature of the regimes, than that was the times they started opening and mellowing out in a sense). Things where not perfect, but why should they be. The west was far from perfect either, and ALOT of people from the west look back at the 1980s with nostalgia even though it really was rather shit im sorry to say.

Its little surprise that alot of people from those regions do look back at it with rose-tinted specs on (i know alot, even from the Baltic states that where very anti-communist).

And to be honest, alot of the velvet uprisings during the end of the 1980s where more about getting rid of Russian influence/domination in the areas, rather than communism as an ideology itself. This becomes strikingly obvious when talking to people from those areas now.

[Tim Cornelis]

I was not alive during its existence, so I can't miss it.

[Misanthrope]

No, not really because it was a failed attempt at socialism and transformed to capitalism. The cold war caused many deaths and imperial occupations also.

[ZeroNowhere]

This should be in Chit-Chat, or the NP board. Certainly not in the History forum, at least.

[Iron Felix]

I speak for most Russians here when I say that life in the Soviet Union(after the Stalinist years of course)was in many ways better than life in the Russian Federation. In that way, many people do miss, most of the older generations certainly do. But one mustn't forget, the Soviet Union wasn't so great, it's just that what replaced it is even worse.

[Susurrus]

"Anyone who does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Anyone who wants it back has no brain." -Putin.

[Battlecat]

An enemy of my enemy is my friend.

The enemy of the USA is my friend.

The USSR is my friend.
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2202#comic

An enemy of my enemy is my friend.

The enemy of the USA is my friend.

Nazi Germany is my friend.

[Rafiq]

A degenerating bourgeois state with no affiliation in the Proletarian movement worldwide? No, I don't give a shit actually.

I see the USSR no more progressive than the American Empire.

[W1N5T0N]

This is nonsense.


care to elaborate why? Im sure you would just LOVE the gulags, slave labor, political dissent being crushed and all that!

USSR WAS NOT A FUCKING SOVIET THEME PARK!

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

An enemy of my enemy is my friend.

The enemy of the USA is my friend.

The USSR is my friend.

The USA isn't our enemy. Its government and financial owners are.

But yeah, how are the religious extremist Taleban doing these days? Did you enjoy your time hanging out with Bin Laden? He was such a hip guy for his opposition to the USA.:rolleyes:

[rednordman]

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2202#comic

An enemy of my enemy is my friend.

The enemy of the USA is my friend.

Nazi Germany is my friend.If it wasn't for the Japanese attacking pearl harbour, or the blitz in Britain. Would Nazi Germany have been the USAs enemy at all?

[Battlecat]

If it wasn't for the Japanese attacking pearl harbour, or the blitz in Britain. Would Nazi Germany have been the USAs enemy at all?
I don't get what you mean by this. Explain?

[Mettalian]

Interesting question. I miss the Soviet Union for its symbolic anti-imperialism and for its being the first step into socialism that we can learn from, but I must also take into account that, while some of it is exaggerated in my opinion, there was persecution and repression. There was both good and bad in Soviet Marxism-Leninism, but I, personally, believe that it should sit as its own political and historical epoch that we can learn from, but also look at critically. I support Cuba, and I'm a member of a Marxist-Leninist organization, because I truly think that there are legitimate and good reasons to implement certain ideas of that nature, but we have to remember the failures as well.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I miss the USSR Lenin ruled over....but not the one Stalin ruled over...

[Dogs On Acid]

An enemy of my enemy is my friend.

The enemy of the USA is my friend.

The Nazis are my friends.

[Dogs On Acid]

I miss the Soviet Union for its symbolic anti-imperialism and for its being the first step into socialism that we can learn from

Why does everyone forget the Paris Commune?

[Mettalian]

Why does everyone forget the Paris Commune?

Post-Marx socialism, excuse me.
EDIT: Wow that sounded pretentious, I'm sure you get what I mean.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

This is a complicated question.The Soviet Union, as bad as it was, placed a check on and provided a counterweight to Imperialism. Immediately after the collapse the US began its rampages in Panama, Iraq, and elsewhere.It is likely the social democratic reforms in Europe and the New Deal in the US would not have happened. The same is true of the US Civil Rights struggles.

The collapse of the Soviet Union threw back class consciousness world wide. "You see, there is no alternative to capitalism" TINA, became the mantra of the 90s.

The living standard of most people in the former USSR dramatically plunged. In the 90s half the population of Russia was below the official poverty level and the country was facing a vast "demographic crisis", people did not want to bring children into such a harsh new world.In 1991 (I believe) a Russian opinion survey found that "foreign currency prostitute" was considered the most attractive, glamorous "profession" of high school age girls.

I lived in Moscow in the 90s. I've seen, many times, elderly women, "babushki" literally dive into a garbage bin to retrieve a crust of bread or stale fruit someone tossed. Retirees, "pensioneri" lived not much different than dogs.Under Yeltsin a handful of savvy well connected oligarchs became billionaire bandits within a very short time while their countryman slid into sometimes subhuman conditions.

In light of this I would have to say the collapse of the Soviet Union would rank as one of the worst tragedies in human history.

Having aid this of course, the "Soviet Union" was nothing of the sort.As repressive and vastly inefficient as it was, the fSU did represent a posibble avenue of non-capitalist development. This possibility of course was aborted by the ruling group, who subverted the emancipatory possibilities of socialism in favor of their own enrichment. The ironic tragedy of the Soviet Union is that the Stalinist system (like that of Q in Libya) disallowed the development of any sort of independent working class movement capable of challenging capitalist restoration.

There is a lot we can learn from the cultural, military, technological, economic, and political history of the Soviet Union.At the risk of a trite metaphor, the fSU was like a grumpy, somewhat obnoxious uncle who you didn't really like, but desperately miss after he's gone.


USSR, Rest In Peace. You will not be forgotten.

[rednordman]

I don't get what you mean by this. Explain?there are some people who where alive during the war that genuinely believe that the only reason the USA got involved was because they were attacked. Also there where some very powerful capitalists in American who where not very adverse to the Nazi regime. Mere speculation really, but worth a thought.

[Susurrus]

At the risk of a trite metaphor, the fSU was like a grumpy, somewhat obnoxious uncle who you didn't really like, but desperately miss after he's gone.

A homicidal classist uncle, but one who gives people housing, work and medical care.

[Delenda Carthago]

Most revleft users aren't Russian and have no connection to the USSR to warrant any "missing" and they haven't had to suffer through the subsequent disaster known as the "Russian Federation," or they are otherwise an Anarchist or some other sort of ultra-leftist, so I am not at all surprised by all the no answers here.
Or they are antifascist marxist-leninists, that oppose the socialfascist regime of terror dictator scums like Brezhnev forced to the people...

[Sheepy]

I really only miss it due to how it's no longer relevant to make silly Soviet Union jokes and references. Other than that it was a Centrist Capitalist clusterfuck with some of the worst leaders (Stalin, Brezhnev, Khrushchev etc.). Though, we can at least remember the good times of Revolution, the teachings of comrade Lenin, and the fights against Imperialism. THAT was what the Soviet Union was about and how it should have stayed.

But alas, it was not meant to be and we'll all have to move on. Though, the USSR does lead a good example on how we as a whole can learn from our mistakes in building a functioning Socialist society.

[RadioRaheem84]

There are pros and cons to the demise of the fSU.

Lenina pretty much said what needed to be said but I also would like to say that the without the "Bolshevik" threat looming over every industrialist from Tokyo to Western Berlin the workers would not have had some room to tear concessions out of the big businesses that dominated society.

A nation committed to the eradication of capitalism, no matter how much it itself was state capitalist, was still enough to insight a fear that gave workers political power and made revolutions all the more strong.

[RadioRaheem84]

A homicidal classist uncle, but one who gives people housing, work and medical care.

Homicidal?

[Susurrus]

Homicidal?

Murders innocent people.

[TwoSevensClash]

Right wingers sure do miss it. The Evil Empire as they called it. But hating on muslims ain't the same as hating the not so good USSR

[Geiseric]

I miss the internationalism of the early russian socialist state, and I also miss the potential for there being a sancturary country for the base of the world revolution.

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

yes, very much.
but i miss late stalins ussr the most:(

[Rss]

Even though I never lived in USSR, I can definitely see how people from fSU look back into the days of socialist construction with sadness in their heart.

[eric922]

I miss the USSR Lenin ruled over....but not the one Stalin ruled over...
I'd be much more inclined to miss the USSR if your statement read "the USSR the working class ruled over" but that was never the case.

[Red Future]

As much as I miss the USSR(which is greatly) it is not worth looking too back into it to forget the present.It has been gone 20 years now and there are lessons whatever your tendency to consider with its demise.We need constantly look forward on this issue

The collapse of the USSR was a tragedy ..but the failure to miss opportunities to create socialism in the future is an even bigger tragedy.

[robbo203]

Interesting question. I miss the Soviet Union for its symbolic anti-imperialism and for its being the first step into socialism that we can learn from.

The one thing we have learnt from the experience of soviet state capitalism is that it was assuredly not a "first step into socialism". On the contrar,y by tarnishing the good name of socialism, and distorting the very meaning of the word, it probably set back the socialist cause by several decades if not more

[Dogs On Acid]

I'd be much more inclined to miss the USSR if your statement read "the USSR the working class ruled over" but that was never the case.

It was for a couple of months.

[ColonelCossack]

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2202#comic

An enemy of my enemy is my friend.

The enemy of the USA is my friend.

Nazi Germany is my friend.

FASCIST ALERT! BAN! BAN! BAN! BAN!


Only joking. :tt2:

[Rusty Shackleford]

Believe me, if you had lived there, you would NOT want it back.
unless you were a stalinoid ML bootlicker apparatchik, that is.
or one of every 2 russians.


As for me? i didnt know it, so i cant miss it.

[eyeheartlenin]

I was a Russian language major at university, and I really wish I had made the trip to see the USSR, as many of my friends did. They studied at MGU (pronounced approximately em-gay-oo in Russian), Moscow State U., and they found Soviet-era Russians to be friendly people. I enjoyed reading some Soviet-era literature, like the novels The Thaw and The Spring, about de-Stalinization. Years ago, on the basis of some college German, I began to read Yiddish journalism and poetry, and, guess what?: a very significant Yiddish literary magazine, Sovetish Heymland, was published "back in the USSR," and it disappeared with the capitalist restoration. In fact, for decades the Soviet state was involved in publishing a lot of Yiddish prose writers and poets. My father was a Marine in the 1940's, and I am grateful to the USSR for its contribution in WW2, and we Russian majors in the 1960's antiwar movement got a kick out of seeing Kosygin standing on a platform, letting the US imperialists know there were limits to what imperialism could do in South East Asia. Once, at an antiwar demonstration, when I was a student, I talked to a Soviet journalist, who called the antiwar movement "the awakened conscience of America," which I thought was neat. So, yeah, I think the disappearance of the USSR was definitely a defeat for the working class and one big victory for imperialism.

[Kadir Ateş]

I remember being in Moscow years ago and the first thought which entered my head was of a dying people. The working class there was not only ravaged by reactionary Stalinisim, but the gangster capitalism of the oligarchs. I don't mourn such an entity which merely marched around with a bunch of empty leftist slogans, but I neither am in favour of what has become of the Russian working class now either.

There only exists the tendency for radical change in Russia after the collapse of the USSR, but thus far none has really come. The movement will have to start again from scratch.

[svenne]

While Soviet may have had a positive influence on the creation of welfare states and the likes, let's not forget that the attacks against the working class high level of welfare began at least ten to fifteen years before the SU fell. And the western upper classes weren't afraid of the Soviet Union, they where afraid of their own working class. The Soviet threat was more of a military threat, really.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Occassionally one of those cold, lonely nights will hit me, when the gnawing in my heart for the fUSSR just becomes unbearable, and I'm forced to once again take out my picture of Brezhnev's head transposed over a Russian T-34 and masturbate furiously, using my own bitter tears as lube.

[Le Rouge]

Occassionally one of those cold, lonely nights will hit me, when the gnawing in my heart for the fUSSR just becomes unbearable, and I'm forced to once again take out my picture of Brezhnev's head transposed over a Russian T-34 and masturbate furiously, using my own bitter tears as lube.

I take this for a yes :D

[CommunityBeliever]

Most of us can agree that the Soviet Union was totally divorced from socialism after the introduction of the Brezhnevian Nomenklatura which clearly represented a new bureaucratic class in the USSR. As such, the USSR was no longer socialist for at least twenty five years before its collapse, or maybe much longer. Despite this, here is why I think we should miss it:


The collapse of the USSR obliterated the world socialist movement, and led to all the defeatists who say "socialism fails in practice."
The Criminal federation which replaced the USSR is much worse. It is full of fraudstors, mobsters, gangbangers, mafia, not to mention war criminals like Putin and the new bourgeoisie. All the well, the conditions of the working class have been continually worsening.
The imperialists ceaselessly worked to destroy the Soviet Union with the Russian civil war, WW2, the cold war, etc. Well it existed, the USSR was an offset to this imperialism. Now that it is gone this has opened up the floodgates to the imperialist exploiters so that they can completely exploit the world with their new "war on terrorism."
The Soviet Union was a great force for technological progress due to all of the Soviet inventions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Russian_inventions_and_technology_reco rds#.C2.A0Soviet_Union) and the fact that it was the first nation to have a space program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_space_program). On the other hand, in the American empire, the only fuel for technological progress was its competition with the Soviet Union, which was the motive force for the transfer millions of funds to DARPA (the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency). DARPA later came to invent modern computers and the Internet. Without this state-funding we wouldn't be wouldn't have all the advanced technologies that we have today.

Besides, how can you not miss Lenin's dream of a world wide union of socialist republics?


The enemy of the USA is my friend.Hitler and Mussolini were both puppets of the Anglo-Dutch financial interests. There was a large communist movement in Germany, and there was the Soviet Union to the East, so the capitalists hired Hitler/Mussolini to offset that. Just look at the all the Anglo-Dutch companies like IBM and Ford that supported them and provided them with materials.

Also look at Mein Kampf, which layed out Hitler's Stufenplan (stage-by-stage plan) which started with the massive rearming of Germany and the overthrowing of the shackles of the Treaty of Versailles, followed by forging alliances with the British empire and Fascist Italy. The second stage was to start a war against France using the combined forces of Britain, Italy, and Germany, the final and most important stage was to invade and destroy the "Judeo-Bolshevik" regime of the USSR in order to create Lebnsraum ("living space") for the German people.

Interestingly, there was no mention of fighting the British and American empires in that plan, but there was mention an alliance. Rudolf Hess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Hess) actually flew over to Britain in order to try to negotiate an alliance with the British empire. Fortunately that didn't work out for the Nazis in part because the Soviets were smart enough to throw the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact into the mix.

As for the American invasion of Nazi Germany, that had nothing to do with opposing the Nazis. That was the start of the containment strategy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Containment), to "stall the spread of communism" and prevent the Soviets from expanding across Europe. It had nothing to do with Anti-Nazism, just look at the Gehlen Organisation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Gehlen#Gehlen_Organization). The CIA was formed by US recruited Nazis. Since the U.S was a continuation of the fascist regime, we needed to build the anti-fascist protection wall.


Nazi Germany is my friend. This is a complete mischaracterisation of the enemy of my enemy is my friend tactic. The purpose of that tactic is to find one enemy, that otherwise wouldn't be your friend, and form an alliance with them, in order to combat an even greater enemy.

In the case of WW2, Nazi germany was an even greater enemy to the working class then United States, so it would make more sense to say that the United States is my friend, and indeed the US was a temporary friend of the Soviet Union in WW2.

[Nox]

Oh. Seriously?

I'm saying that I liked them because of their opposition to US imperialism. That doesn't automatically mean I think they're perfect from a Communist perspective, there were also many things I disliked them for.

You could have at least asked for more information rather than assuming (wrongly) my whole opinion on the Soviet Union based on one sentence about their counterweight to US imperialism.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Again, that's not what he said. You're doing exactly the same kind of violence to his point that you are accusing him of doing to your own.Ok, maybe I was being rough, but the poster was suggesting that those who don't miss the Soviet Union have that view because they don't know how bad the post-Soviet situation has been. That's not how to judge a political system on its own merits.; it's lesser-evilism. Many workers in the US think that things were better for workers under a more Keynesian system of "guns and butter" with FDR or LBJ - that's probably true in a sense, but it doesn't mean capitalism is a system worth fighting for.

[/quote]Also, without wishing to get into a huge debate about the Comintern, the idea that it "stifled" revolution given that during the Stalin-era of the Comintern revolutions occurred in Korea, Vietnam and China, is frankly, silly. You might not agree with the direction in which those revolutions progressed, but you can't deny they occurred at all.[/QUOTE]And there are many other examples of CPs actually working against class struggle when the USSR needed peace with the imperialists or wanted to keep a cold-war balance. The point is, no matter how these revolutions developed, the CP support had less to do with the initiatives of workers in Paris or 1940s US or whatnot and more to do with the policy interests of the USSR. If someone thinks these interests were actually in world working class revolution, then they probably agree. Personally I don't think that was an interest - at the very least - by the time "socialism in one country" became the driving view of the country.

[thefinalmarch]

I'm saying that I liked them because of their opposition to US imperialism. That doesn't automatically mean I think they're perfect from a Communist perspective, there were also many things I disliked them for.

You could have at least asked for more information rather than assuming (wrongly) my whole opinion on the Soviet Union based on one sentence about their counterweight to US imperialism.
It would certainly help if you didn't make such a blunt statement as "The USSR is my friend". It generally implies open support for all actions and policies unless otherwise mentioned, which is precisely you failed to do in your initial post.

[CommunityBeliever]

That's not how to judge a political system on its own merits.

Then tell us then: how should we judge a political system?


it's lesser-evilism

What is lesser-evilism? How is any political system "evil."

Why should we ever miss a political system if not for its relative benefits?

[FuzzypegX]

I miss the USSR Lenin ruled over....but not the one Stalin ruled over...

I don't think either of them would have appreciated the term "ruled over".

[Jimmie Higgins]

Then tell us then: how should we judge a political system?Who rules, how, and for what reasons. What the social-relations are.


What is lesser-evilism? How is any political system "evil."Lesser evilism is when people try to argue that voting for a Democrat with polices you disagree with for the most part is necessary because the Republican alternative is worse.


Why should we ever miss a political system if not for its relative benefits?I don't see what good this does for the working class movement. Sure, I think we can miss certain reforms of the past or that people won in other places - many Americans miss some of the post-war reforms and social-contract of that era - but what good does it do?

[CommunityBeliever]

Who rules, how, and for what reasons. What the social-relations are.The social-relations of a society represent one way of classifying/describing it, not a means of judging it.


Lesser evilism is when people try to argue that voting for a Democrat with polices you disagree with for the most part is necessary because the Republican alternative is worse.That is an ostensive definition. You have provided an example, and now you expect for me to understand what you mean. I don't understand what you mean here or how that example applies.


I don't see what good this does for the working class movement. The collapse of the USSR was an utter disaster for the working class movement, most working class parties around the world gave up and became a part of bourgeoisie politics/social democracy reformism.

An earlier disaster had already happen during the Sino-Soviet split against Kruschev revisionism which split the working class movement in two. Clearly, the state of the working class movements around the world, and the state of the Soviet Union was interconnected, and when we lost the USSR that was a huge blow.


Sure, I think we can miss certain reforms of the past or that people won in other places - many Americans miss some of the post-war reforms and social-contract of that era - but what good does it do?The good that this does is it allows us to remember the accomplishments of the past, so that we can get a sense of what we achieved and what we lost.

I miss many of the achievements that we have lost in the U.S too, but of course not as much as the USSR because the US has never been socialist, which the USSR once was.

[Battlecat]

[...] It had nothing to do with Anti-Nazism, just look at the Gehlen Organisation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Gehlen#Gehlen_Organization). The CIA was formed by US recruited Nazis. Since the U.S was a continuation of the fascist regime, we needed to build the anti-fascist protection wall
..What?

Evil? Yes. Fascist? No. Comrades on revleft tend to use the word "fascist" rather liberally. Same as their use of the world "liberal". The USA was as fascist as the USSR - in the sense that neither of them were fascist.
Also, don't give me that"Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart" crap. The Berlin Wall was constructed to keep the East German people in and prevent another brain drain when over 2.7 million East Germans fled to West Berlin. It was built to protect soviet hegemony over their satellite states, not to stop the fascist FGR from invading the worker's paradise of Stasila.. sorry, the German Democratic Republic.

[CommunityBeliever]

Also, don't give me that"Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart" crap. That is not crap. The American empire (or rather NATO as a whole) was never really opposed to fascism, which is why they recruited Nazis and other fascists after WW2 to use against the anti-fascist Soviet Union.

[Battlecat]

That is not crap. The American empire (or rather NATO as a whole) was never really opposed to fascism, which is why they recruited Nazis and other fascists after WW2 to use against the anti-fascist Soviet Union.
They recruited Nazis to continue their personal imperialist goals - not as some front for a secret cabal of Nazis, running the western world. By that logic, the USSR were fascist because they (somewhat) worked with the Nazis up until '41.

America is capitalist - not fascist

[CommunityBeliever]

not as some front for a secret cabal of Nazis, running the western world. By that logic, the USSR were fascist because they (somewhat) worked with the Nazis up until '41. The USSR didn't really work with the Nazis in any considerable sense, they just had to sign a pact to prevent a united alliance between the Nazis and the British empire.

The U.S, the British, and the Nazis were all out to destroy the Soviet Union. And as you already agreed the U.S recruited Nazis which assisted their imperialism. I never said anything about a "secret cabal."


America is capitalist - not fascist The U.S's socieconomic system is liberal capitalism and I never said otherwise. I think you may be misunderstanding me.

The U.S is liberal capitalist but the it has/had these fascist elements that were a continuation of fascist Italy/Nazi Germany like the Gehlen Organisation.

[Battlecat]

The USSR didn't really work with the Nazis in any considerable sense

I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_military_parade_in_Brest-Litovsk) beg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Commercial_Agreement_%281939 %29) to (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Axis_talks) differ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo%E2%80%93NKVD_Conferences)

[Rooster]

I'm saying that I liked them because of their opposition to US imperialism. That doesn't automatically mean I think they're perfect from a Communist perspective, there were also many things I disliked them for.

You could have at least asked for more information rather than assuming (wrongly) my whole opinion on the Soviet Union based on one sentence about their counterweight to US imperialism.

So it's doesn't matter what the social policies of the USSR were just as long as they were an obstacle to US imperialism? Bravo.

[Tifosi]

A bunch of 20 somethings (most likely making up the bulk of this thread) saying they miss the Soviet Union (espically saying they miss 'Lenin's Soviet Union')

Like people from, say, France saying they support the Naxalites or the New Peoples Army.

WTF:confused:. Got nothing relevant to talk about?

[Lenina Rosenweg]

The Soviet Union, for most of its history, was a caricature of socialism. Having said this however, the mere existence of a polity called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was a challenge and an affront to capitalism.The USSR had been created by a working class revolution.It represented that fact that at one time the working class had taken, and for a time had kept, state power.The Soviet Union had been running off that historical battery for decades. Leningrad was the cradle of the Revolution. Hitler's siege of that city was so desperate because of that fact.From the beginning of the Cold War until the very end the US never "recognized" the USSR as a fully legitimate nation-state.

After the collapse Communist parties became social democratic and social democratic parties became neo-liberal. Working class forces world wide are only now emerging from a long winter of repression and demoralization.

The historical significance of the Soviet Union should be understood and appreciated.I've had online debates with neo-Confederates who "miss" the CSA so it is possible to "miss" the SU. It is very important to understand what went wrong and why the fSU collapsed. That is what should be debated.

The USSR represented the first, perhaps aborted, attempted to create a global alternative to capitalism.Hopefully I will live to see the second global attempt.

[Jose Gracchus]

The USSR didn't really work with the Nazis in any considerable sense

Yet your political current claimed the USSR emerged from Khrushchev's tenure not only "capitalist," but also "fascist" and defended the Chinese alliance with the U.S. and its imperial client regimes (Pinochet is a particularly grievous instance).

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The Soviet Union, for most of its history, was a caricature of socialism. Having said this however, the mere existence of a polity called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was a challenge and an affront to capitalism.The USSR had been created by a working class revolution.It represented that fact that at one time the working class had taken, and for a time had kept, state power.The Soviet Union had been running off that historical battery for decades. Leningrad was the cradle of the Revolution. Hitler's siege of that city was so desperate because of that fact.From the beginning of the Cold War until the very end the US never "recognized" the USSR as a fully legitimate nation-state.

After the collapse Communist parties became social democratic and social democratic parties became neo-liberal. Working class forces world wide are only now emerging from a long winter of repression and demoralization.

The historical significance of the Soviet Union should be understood and appreciated.I've had online debates with neo-Confederates who "miss" the CSA so it is possible to "miss" the SU. It is very important to understand what went wrong and why the fSU collapsed. That is what should be debated.

The USSR represented the first, perhaps aborted, attempted to create a global alternative to capitalism.Hopefully I will live to see the second global attempt.

1. How could the USSR be a challenge to Capitalism? It was a challenge to free-market Capitalism, sure, but in itself the USSR retained Capitalistic economic relations.

2. The overthrow of the Tsarist regime was possibly only by near two decade long struggle undertaken by the working class, independent of Lenin and other Bolshevik exiles, but the establishment of the USSR, in terms of the state superstructure, was undoubtedly taken by the Bolsheviks, somewhat independently of the working class (in terms of the crushing of workers' Soviets, Kronstadt and the re-implementation of Capitalism in the 1920s).

3. It was not an abortive attempt to create a global alternative to Capitalism. It was a global alternative to free-markets, for sure, but in my mind i'm fairly sure that the only attempts to create Socialism (which were massively abortive!) were during the 1929-37ish period. Previously, Lenin had stated his aim to create State Capitalism. After such a period, you had the war and an increasingly Socially Democratic, reformist, anti-democratic, bureaucratic and static/stagnating society, leading to the resurrection of free-market Capitalism.

[Nox]

So it's doesn't matter what the social policies of the USSR were just as long as they were an obstacle to US imperialism? Bravo.

Did you even read what I said?

I said I liked them for their opposition to US imperialism.

I did not mention their social policies.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

1. How could the USSR be a challenge to Capitalism? It was a challenge to free-market Capitalism, sure, but in itself the USSR retained Capitalistic economic relations.

2. The overthrow of the Tsarist regime was possibly only by near two decade long struggle undertaken by the working class, independent of Lenin and other Bolshevik exiles, but the establishment of the USSR, in terms of the state superstructure, was undoubtedly taken by the Bolsheviks, somewhat independently of the working class (in terms of the crushing of workers' Soviets, Kronstadt and the re-implementation of Capitalism in the 1920s).

3. It was not an abortive attempt to create a global alternative to Capitalism. It was a global alternative to free-markets, for sure, but in my mind i'm fairly sure that the only attempts to create Socialism (which were massively abortive!) were during the 1929-37ish period. Previously, Lenin had stated his aim to create State Capitalism. After such a period, you had the war and an increasingly Socially Democratic, reformist, anti-democratic, bureaucratic and static/stagnating society, leading to the resurrection of free-market Capitalism.

I think the "state capitalist" theory can be taken too far. The Soviet Union had a collectivized, planned economy, appropriate to a society brought into being by the working class.Some aspects of the capitalist law of value were actualized, commodities were produced for a wage but there was no market and society was not based on the need of capital to reproduce and expand. The Soviet Union wasn't capitalist.

I feel that the US civil rights movement, the Western European "social democratic compromise", de-colonialization, and the anti-apartheid struggle in Southern Africa either would not have happened or would have evolved much differently without the Soviet Union.

Lenin did not intend to create "state capitalism", he wanted to help create socialism. His "state capitalist" comment came out when he admitted to Kollantai and her friends that "we don't have socialism, we're lucky to have state capitalism". Lenin came up against the failure of revolution in the West-Germany, Italy, Hungary, and a vast world wide strike wave.

The Russian Revolution was the culmination of decades of struggle but without the October Revolution Russia probably would have evolved into a desperately poor, militaristic, quasi-fascist Kornilovist-Kolchakist corporate state. Degeneration rapidly set in, but the fact remains that "Great October" was the first time in history the working class successfully took state power. The mere fact that a state, resulting from a working class revolution existed was a challenge and affront to capitalism. Witness the "end of history" triumphalism of the 90s.

I am no fan of the Castro government but there is a qualitative difference between Cuba under Batista and Cuba under Fidel. I am very critical of Maoism but China under Jiang was qualitatively different from China under Mao.

The reasons for capitalist restoration lie in contradictions within the Stalinist command economy, essentially there was no democratic accountability resulting in massive waste and inertia. there were alternatives, i.e. worker's democracy, right up to the very end.

[Rusty Shackleford]

the rotting that ended up destroying the CPSU ideologically was that doctors and such were required to be party members. thus, it made careerism inevitable. it also made petit-bourgeois sentiment inevitable.

[El Louton]

Bearing in mind I wasn't alive when the Soviet Union existed, I do not miss the Soviet Union!

[tir1944]

Of course i miss it,just like hundreds of millions of ex-Soviet people who are now suffering under a particularly brutal and barbaric capitalist system.

[Tim Finnegan]

the rotting that ended up destroying the CPSU ideologically was that doctors and such were required to be party members. thus, it made careerism inevitable. it also made petit-bourgeois sentiment inevitable.
And thank Christ that we're not supposed to be historical materialists, or this sort of reasoning would be really hard to square with our theoretical framework of capitalism!

[ColonelCossack]

You guys are deep.

He's only got 2 posts.

[Rooster]

Did you even read what I said?

I said I liked them for their opposition to US imperialism.

I did not mention their social policies.

So, it really doesn't matter then? Thought as much.

[Dumb]

Do I miss it? Only in the sense that you can't hit something that doesn't exist anymore.

[Jose Gracchus]

Needless to say, no.

[Aleenik]

Lol

Not at all. They were an exceptionally repressive state capitalist nation. I'm an Anarcho-Communist. Fuck all nations and fuck Capitalism.

Besides the brutal totalitarianism, they helped to set back our cause for who knows how long. Their impact is still strongly felt and will be strongly felt for the foreseeable future. Earth united under Communism shall come one day I hope, but the USSR sure didn't help that cause.

[EvilRedGuy]

"Anyone who does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Anyone who wants it back has no brain." -Putin.

Coming from a corrupt state-capitalist that supports fascists to brutally deal with his enemies.


Anyway, i'd rather live in Soviet Union under Lenin that under Putin/Medvedev today atleast they would have handled/gulag'd the fascists to hell. My parents miss the Soviet Union aswell, better quality products, better meat not they import the crappy shit from countries like Denmark, no taste. Better housing, more socially done things. More community and less capitalist culture which was absent in that time.

So yeah i miss it, because its higher standards of living for workers and more equality, but that dosen't mean i support everything about it. Stalin should be reincarnated so he can kill fascists/neo-nazis though.

[Susurrus]

It's kind of like missing how the US was during the 50s; sure, most people were better off(larger middle class, job security, better pay, more jobs in US), but the rigid social codes, political control and propaganda, the unwarranted executions and lynchings, and the inherent faults of the system made it ultimately not worth it and doomed to fail.

[R_P_A_S]

Miss the USSR? Come on... This is a joke right?

[The Man]

"Anyone who does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Anyone who wants it back has no brain." -Putin.

Well yeah.. Of course he says that. He is the leader of one of the most corrupt, nationalist, capitalist regimes of the 21st century.

[Agent Ducky]

I can't say I do, it dissolved before I was born. I wouldn't argue for it returning though. That just doesn't make any sense.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Believe me, if you had lived there, you would NOT want it back.

You say this on what authority? Were you there? Did you live in the USSR when it existed? This sort of argumentation can work both ways mate.

As for the OP, yes, back in the USSR, you don't know how lucky you are.

[Tim Finnegan]

You say this on what authority? Were you there? Did you live in the USSR when it existed? This sort of argumentation can work both ways mate.
Sometimes when things happen, people write them down and distribute them for other people to read. These words can take the form of books, essays, articles, and, in recent times, various digital forms. These can allow people insights into historical events or situations which they would not be able to obtain first-hand.

It's tragic that you need this explained to you, but nobody can say that I'm not trying! :rolleyes:

[EvilRedGuy]

And sometimes things that are written down is simply not true. I know my parents wanted Soviet Union to keep expanding and evolving so i guess, yeah, they support it, but i'd support it too, compared to the fascist/capitalist Putin regime. :mad: Eastern-Europe is worse than the US now! :mad:

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Sometimes when things happen, people write them down and distribute them for other people to read. These words can take the form of books, essays, articles, and, in recent times, various digital forms. These can allow people insights into historical events or situations which they would not be able to obtain first-hand.

Astounding, you're kidding me, are you serious?


It's tragic that you need this explained to you, but nobody can say that I'm not trying! :rolleyes:

No, what's tragic is you don't get my point but are being a snooty arse about it. My point being is people making a big fuss about you can't say you liked it if you weren't actually there and if you were then you would think it's a shithole. I actually do think you can arrive at your own conclusions without having to actually have been there, ass.

[Manifesto]

I miss the Soviet Union about as much as I miss smallpox.