9/11 Conspiracy

[Nox]

Does anyone know how to get a 9/11 conspiracist wacko to come to their senses?

Can I have some arguments to refute their claims?

Thanks

[Misanthrope]

Some strange things did happen. If you don't have any refutations maybe you should look into it yourself.

PHYSICS!

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I cannot remember the name of the special,but I remember that the history channel did a very through "debunkment" of all the claims made by the conspiracists and "truthers." I would start there.

[Bud Struggle]

Does anyone know how to get a 9/11 conspiracist wacko to come to their senses?

Can I have some arguments to refute their claims?

Thanks

I read somewhere that 36% of Americans believe in some sort of conspiracy theory. And most of these people aren't balls to the walls crazy--they are normal rational functioning people--with this one problem. They just are "one source" news people. They get their information from one source that feeds the theory and everything else fits into that.

And it's not that hard to get into that sort of "one source" info progam--once you stop listening to Fox and NBC and CBS and CNN--there is only the fringe after that. The fringe might be responsible or not--depending on the ax they have to grind.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I found this article via google

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/05/9-11-conspiracy-theories-debunked

[Bud Struggle]

I cannot remember the name of the special,but I remember that the history channel did a very through "debunkment" of all the claims made by the conspiracists and "truthers." I would start there.

Popular Mechanics has a book on 9/11 that refutes the conspiracists in detail.

[Tjis]

Don't get sucked into trying to refute their arguments. Instead target the fear that lies beneath it. Many of these people believe that many, if not all of the bad things that are happening happen because of a conspiratorial group pulling strings in the shadows, and that if only this group were to be outed things would surely start getting better.
Point out that the state of the world can be explained perfectly fine without resorting to conspiracy theories. Point out that bad things happen because they are profitable, and that as long as the profit motive is the primary drive behind the actions of the powerful, bad things will keep happening, no matter how many conspiracies are uncovered.

If tomorrow someone found irrefutable proof that 9/11 was an inside job, nothing would change. It would not end the wars in the middle east and it would not end the increased security measures put in place supposedly to combat terrorism.

Energy that the truthers spend towards trying to uncover the 'truth' could be spent far better by trying to uncover who profits from the events that followed 9/11, and why. This should clearly illuminate the vast scale of the issue which a conspiratorial world view simply can't explain.

[RGacky3]

The fact that the people that push these claims who somehow managed to figure out the secret are still alive, while the US government managed to pull of this giant terrorist elaborate conspiracy, but can't take out the loose change guy, or even photoshop in some weapons of mass destruction in Iraq ....

[Apoi_Viitor]

No amount of logic is going to convince them to reconsider their beliefs. That' because all the evidenve that contradicts their ridiculous beliefs are lies invented by the illuminati/jews/aliens. Seriously though, no matter what you say they'll just respond by showing you some grainy handycam video and claim "see you can clearly tell that tower is falling at free falll speed". You can point out that there's no way to tell since the tower dissapears into a huge fucking tower of dust, but ultimately they think that for some reason the burden of proof lies on you.

[Drosophila]

YouTube search "Loose Change vs Popular Mechanics"

[Psy]

Some strange things did happen. If you don't have any refutations maybe you should look into it yourself.

PHYSICS!

Well physics call into the question why the airlines didn't break apart long before they hit the buildings if they had effective speeds above Mach 1 at the air pressures they were flying in. Also how the pilots were able to control the airliners since at official 9/11 speeds the planes would have been shaking themselves apart that at those speeds that would have thrown them into dutch rolls.

The logical conclusion is the airliners were flying at much slower speeds to cover up why military aircraft did not catch up with them.

[Ele'ill]

Does anyone know how to get a 9/11 conspiracist wacko to come to their senses?


Yes, stop talking to them.

[Geiseric]

Tell them that they should focus on why we're in the wars, i.e. profits for the capitalists, and that we shouldn't focus on a single event which was the scapegoat for the entire war.

[piet11111]

The only cover-up that really happened was burying their complete incompetence to prevent 9/11.

[NGNM85]

It's a crapshoot. Some have already suggested scholarly debunkings of the more common 9/11 conspiracy theories. However; whether or not these will have any impact is a 50-50 shot. The problem with people that believe this kind of nonsense is that they aren't thinking rationally. It's analogous to a religious belief. Some religious people can be reasoned with, more can't be. That isn't to say one shouldn't try, you absolutely should; you just should be realistic about the likelihood of getting through to them, because you can't necessarily disabuse someone of a belief, using facts and logic, that didn't come to based on facts and logic.

What I find so tragic is that so many people get sucked into this nonsense, but if you try to approach them about real things, like COINTELPRO, or the Patriot Act, etc., they show absolutely no interest. They'd rather analyze the Zapruder film, or that Alien Autopsy video.

[Ocean Seal]

You can try to show them evidence, but once they think that they're enlightened, you probably can't change it. Just don't talk to them about it, its probably not that important.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Use whatever "works". You'll most likely never convince the die-hards, no matter if you use reason, evidence or rhetoric. But good use of all three in a public debate is still important for the benefit of those in the audience as well as those who are capable of being convinced.

[Princess Luna]

Point out that the bush administration were idiots and could never have hidden something so huge

[Battlecat]

Point out that the bush administration were idiots and could never have hidden something so huge
The (probably inappropriate use of the term) irony of that comment is that the Bush administration, at lest in the eyes of truthers, didn't do a good job of hiding it. Hence the conspiracies, and why they think they know the "truth".

Whether or not there is a conspiracy, or jsut some pissed off Muslim extremists, this song still rocks:
lGYwN5rsvyI

[Mythbuster]

Just point out the sheer amount of people needed to be involved. If one person did not sanction the 9/11 attacks, then that person can ruin the conspiracy.

[La Comédie Noire]

youtube search "loose change vs popular mechanics"

warning: May increase blood pressure due to arm chair thinkers laughing knowingly when faced with overwhelming evidence that they are wrong.

[Psy]

Just point out the sheer amount of people needed to be involved. If one person did not sanction the 9/11 attacks, then that person can ruin the conspiracy.
That is not how bureaucracy works, the point of bureaucracy is that people just follow orders without question thus leaders don't have to explain their goals. Once the conspiracy is carried out those that know keep their mouths shut as they know their career would be over if they fail to carry the party line of the bureaucracy. It is even worse if they are in the military as they would be court marshaled for espionage, just look at Bradley Manning where the fact that he what leaked showed the US military being guilty of war crimes yet that is considered irrelevant by the military's prosecution against him and the mainstream media carries this position of Badley Manning being in the wrong for leaking incriminating information against the US military as the military bureaucracy says it was wrong.

[RGacky3]

Once the conspiracy is carried out those that know keep their mouths shut as they know their career would be over if they fail to carry the party line of the bureaucracy. It is even worse if they are in the military as they would be court marshaled for espionage, just look at Bradley Manning where the fact that he what leaked showed the US military being guilty of war crimes yet that is considered irrelevant by the military's prosecution against him and the mainstream media carries this position of Badley Manning being in the wrong for leaking incriminating information against the US military as the military bureaucracy says it was wrong.

Well the cause for the vietnam war came out, the LSD and syphilis tests came out, the iran contra thing came out, all of these are tiny in comparison to 911, you'd have to be an idiot to think that the US would try something like this.

[ВАЛТЕР]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_OIXfkXEj0

BOOM :laugh:

[Hexen]

I read somewhere that 36% of Americans believe in some sort of conspiracy theory. And most of these people aren't balls to the walls crazy--they are normal rational functioning people--with this one problem. They just are "one source" news people. They get their information from one source that feeds the theory and everything else fits into that.

And it's not that hard to get into that sort of "one source" info progam--once you stop listening to Fox and NBC and CBS and CNN--there is only the fringe after that. The fringe might be responsible or not--depending on the ax they have to grind.


I think I know some of them, one of them keeps looking at the "whatreallyhappened.com" site.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The problem with the conspiracy theorists is that they seem to think that if the equation 'government statements = truth' doesn't hold true, that this is then evidence of a conspiracy.

I'm 100% sure that the US government has lied and covered up in relation to 9/11, but not because there was a conspiracy over the event, probably just because it was mis-managed, the intelligence was mis-managed (as we know that Bush knew that there was a massive threat of a Bin Laden-led attack imminently) and the aftermath was mis-managed.

[La Comédie Noire]

That is not how bureaucracy works, the point of bureaucracy is that people just follow orders without question thus leaders don't have to explain their goals. Once the conspiracy is carried out those that know keep their mouths shut as they know their career would be over if they fail to carry the party line of the bureaucracy. It is even worse if they are in the military as they would be court marshaled for espionage, just look at Bradley Manning where the fact that he what leaked showed the US military being guilty of war crimes yet that is considered irrelevant by the military's prosecution against him and the mainstream media carries this position of Badley Manning being in the wrong for leaking incriminating information against the US military as the military bureaucracy says it was wrong.

Yeah, but he still was able to assist wiki leaks with classified information that proved misconduct on the part of the United States. Plus the government perpetrating the 9/11 attacks would be a little harder to spin in their favor.

[Psy]

Yeah, but he still was able to assist wiki leaks with classified information that proved misconduct on the part of the United States. Plus the government perpetrating the 9/11 attacks would be a little harder to spin in their favor.
That is true but that information was on a military network with relativity low security clearance and during a time when the military bureaucracy fallen into such complacency the threat of spies didn't cross their mind at the time. If it happened during the cold war the KGB would have had a field day as all of NATO's secrets was just sitting on networks and no one stopping people from accessing all of it even if they had low clearance and no business accessing the files also able to leave with removable media unchecked by security.

If there was a government conspiracy over 9/11 I doubt they would put incriminating records on a NATO computer network and they would have went to far greater lengths keeping the record secret.

Also it should be stated if there is a conspiracy we don't know at what level the US involvement was, it could be as simple a stand down order to let the attacks happen as a casus belli to invade Iraq.

[W1N5T0N]

Wackos?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

[El Louton]

I know there was a programme on BBC two nights ago about a 'road trip' with some conspiracy theorists in which they tried to convince them the theory's they believed in were nuts!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b014gpjx/9_11_Conspiracy_Road_Trip/

Try that! It explains the theory's and tells you why its wrong.

[SJBarley]

There was a hour long special on BBC three recently dealing with this exact thing. One who believes that 9/11 was not planned by the US trying to convince 5 who believe it was the US.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b014gpjx/9_11_Conspiracy_Road_Trip/
(not sure if the link will show, if not just visit the BBC Iplayer website and search 9/11 conspiracy roadtrip)

[W1N5T0N]

Well, even if they didnt "do" it, thats just one act of terror the USA hasnt commited.


amongst all the other thousand, that is :laugh:

[Commissar Rykov]

Well, even if they didnt "do" it, thats just one act of terror the USA hasnt commited.


amongst all the other thousand, that is :laugh:
Maybe it is a translation error but can you show me what is so damn funny about people dying by terrorist acts?