"if you don't like it, leave!"

[Mazzen]

I'm sick and tired of the attitude of right wing pricks that say..."Well, if you don't like America then leave!" It doesn't matter what I try to say to them...it doesn't work..they just keep saying "leave." I try telling them "it's my fuckin' home too, ya know?!" I want to know why, why, WHY the fuck can't I ***** and try to change this country into a better place w/ out being told that I'm unpatriotic, ungrateful, ignorant, naive, &c. Why is it always their answer? "If you don't like it, leave!" That pisses me off so much. I have the right to be here just as much as them. If my politics, feelings, and whatnot disagrees...then it's my "right" to fuckin' ***** about it and try to change it. That's the "beauty of America", isn't it? Fuck no. It doesn't look like it. I have nothing more to say on this right now. Chau.

[EneME]

It's true..its bullshit especially "Freedom of Speech." If you dont say what they believe then u shouldn't say shit....seriously I feel so um discriminated against cuz I'm a left, that seriously I dont tell many ppl. I remember after 9/11 how many ppl were arrested or whatnot because they spoke about their leftist beliefs..they were automatically thought of as a terrorist. Patriotic ppl are hypocrites b/c they preach about the greatness of America...but they don't even know what that MEANS.

[marxstudent]

That's it.

[Bradyman]

I hate all this unpatriotic talk I get. So many people label me as a person who hates America and should go to Cuba. People forget that the founding fathers of America had the ideas of liberty and freedom for all man, something that truly does not exists in capitalism because of the excessive exploitation.

Everyone always says, "what about the American dream!" man that is such bull crap. Realistically only one in like hundreds of thousands make the American dream, its such a stupid idea. You only hear about those select few that made it big, you never hear about the millions who live in poverty and will remain like that despite our idea of "social mobility."

[Bodyguard]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2003, 06:58 PM
I'm sick and tired of the attitude of right wing pricks that say..."Well, if you don't like America then leave!" It doesn't matter what I try to say to them...it doesn't work..they just keep saying "leave." I try telling them "it's my fuckin' home too, ya know?!" I want to know why, why, WHY the fuck can't I ***** and try to change this country into a better place w/ out being told that I'm unpatriotic, ungrateful, ignorant, naive, &c. Why is it always their answer? "If you don't like it, leave!" That pisses me off so much. I have the right to be here just as much as them. If my politics, feelings, and whatnot disagrees...then it's my "right" to fuckin' ***** about it and try to change it. That's the "beauty of America", isn't it? Fuck no. It doesn't look like it. I have nothing more to say on this right now. Chau.
OH Boo Hoo for you...the freedom of speech goes both ways my friend! Say something outragous and get slammed! Deal with it! If freedom of speech hurts your feelings then indeed maybye you should move somewhere else. You do indeed have a right to ***** and I and others have a right to say "shut the hell up".....how you react to it defines your character. (or lack of)

[synthesis]

Originally posted by Bodyguard+Oct 28 2003, 05:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bodyguard @ Oct 28 2003, 05:53 AM)
[email protected] 27 2003, 06:58 PM
I&#39;m sick and tired of the attitude of right wing pricks that say..."Well, if you don&#39;t like America then leave&#33;" It doesn&#39;t matter what I try to say to them...it doesn&#39;t work..they just keep saying "leave." I try telling them "it&#39;s my fuckin&#39; home too, ya know?&#33;" I want to know why, why, WHY the fuck can&#39;t I ***** and try to change this country into a better place w/ out being told that I&#39;m unpatriotic, ungrateful, ignorant, naive, &c. Why is it always their answer? "If you don&#39;t like it, leave&#33;" That pisses me off so much. I have the right to be here just as much as them. If my politics, feelings, and whatnot disagrees...then it&#39;s my "right" to fuckin&#39; ***** about it and try to change it. That&#39;s the "beauty of America", isn&#39;t it? Fuck no. It doesn&#39;t look like it. I have nothing more to say on this right now. Chau.
OH Boo Hoo for you...the freedom of speech goes both ways my friend&#33; Say something outragous and get slammed&#33; Deal with it&#33; If freedom of speech hurts your feelings then indeed maybye you should move somewhere else. You do indeed have a right to ***** and I and others have a right to say "shut the hell up".....how you react to it defines your character. (or lack of) [/b]
These things are so cyclical. Why are you implying that Mazzen wants to infringe other people&#39;s freedom of speech?

He was just singling out one of the stupidest capitalist rebuttals, one that attempts to bully dissidents into either being quiet or leaving.


If freedom of speech hurts your feelings then indeed maybye you should move somewhere else. Mazzen could say the same things to his opponents; I could say the same thing to you, using your logic.

Really, your reasoning is silly.

[EneME]

Originally posted by Bodyguard+Oct 28 2003, 05:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bodyguard @ Oct 28 2003, 05:53 AM)
[email protected] 27 2003, 06:58 PM
I&#39;m sick and tired of the attitude of right wing pricks that say..."Well, if you don&#39;t like America then leave&#33;" It doesn&#39;t matter what I try to say to them...it doesn&#39;t work..they just keep saying "leave." I try telling them "it&#39;s my fuckin&#39; home too, ya know?&#33;" I want to know why, why, WHY the fuck can&#39;t I ***** and try to change this country into a better place w/ out being told that I&#39;m unpatriotic, ungrateful, ignorant, naive, &c. Why is it always their answer? "If you don&#39;t like it, leave&#33;" That pisses me off so much. I have the right to be here just as much as them. If my politics, feelings, and whatnot disagrees...then it&#39;s my "right" to fuckin&#39; ***** about it and try to change it. That&#39;s the "beauty of America", isn&#39;t it? Fuck no. It doesn&#39;t look like it. I have nothing more to say on this right now. Chau.
OH Boo Hoo for you...the freedom of speech goes both ways my friend&#33; Say something outragous and get slammed&#33; Deal with it&#33; If freedom of speech hurts your feelings then indeed maybye you should move somewhere else. You do indeed have a right to ***** and I and others have a right to say "shut the hell up".....how you react to it defines your character. (or lack of) [/b]
That&#39;s the point....it depends on how u respond and react. Unfortunatly, "right-wingers" or whatever never have an actual intellecually based response, its all just diarrhea at the mouth....hence ur response...it&#39;s okay, but to us Leftists it really just reinforces our ideologies and stereotypes of the right...Righties make me laugh...they&#39;re a riot

[Bodyguard]

Originally posted by DyerMaker+Oct 28 2003, 06:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DyerMaker @ Oct 28 2003, 06:44 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 05:53 AM

[email protected] 27 2003, 06:58 PM
I&#39;m sick and tired of the attitude of right wing pricks that say..."Well, if you don&#39;t like America then leave&#33;" It doesn&#39;t matter what I try to say to them...it doesn&#39;t work..they just keep saying "leave." I try telling them "it&#39;s my fuckin&#39; home too, ya know?&#33;" I want to know why, why, WHY the fuck can&#39;t I ***** and try to change this country into a better place w/ out being told that I&#39;m unpatriotic, ungrateful, ignorant, naive, &c. Why is it always their answer? "If you don&#39;t like it, leave&#33;" That pisses me off so much. I have the right to be here just as much as them. If my politics, feelings, and whatnot disagrees...then it&#39;s my "right" to fuckin&#39; ***** about it and try to change it. That&#39;s the "beauty of America", isn&#39;t it? Fuck no. It doesn&#39;t look like it. I have nothing more to say on this right now. Chau.
OH Boo Hoo for you...the freedom of speech goes both ways my friend&#33; Say something outragous and get slammed&#33; Deal with it&#33; If freedom of speech hurts your feelings then indeed maybye you should move somewhere else. You do indeed have a right to ***** and I and others have a right to say "shut the hell up".....how you react to it defines your character. (or lack of)
These things are so cyclical. Why are you implying that Mazzen wants to infringe other people&#39;s freedom of speech?

He was just singling out one of the stupidest capitalist rebuttals, one that attempts to bully dissidents into either being quiet or leaving.


If freedom of speech hurts your feelings then indeed maybye you should move somewhere else. Mazzen could say the same things to his opponents; I could say the same thing to you, using your logic.

Really, your reasoning is silly. [/b]
All I am saying is that dont complain when people react to what you say&#33; Go ahead and say what you want to me&#33; I dont care......you have a right to say it and I have a right to ignore it or to respond to it........this seems like a concept that many cant grasp......possibly because freedom of speech is not a concept looked up too in Communist teachings.

PS you notice I did not call anyone a "prick" or any such slander.

[synthesis]

you have a right to say it and I have a right to ignore it or to respond to it........this seems like a concept that many cant grasp......possibly because freedom of speech is not a concept looked up too in Communist teachings.

Silly capitalist.

Read this:

http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/184...press/index.htm (http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1842/free-press/index.htm)

Especially this:

http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/184...-press/ch05.htm (http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1842/free-press/ch05.htm)


Whenever one form of freedom is rejected, freedom in general is rejected and henceforth can have only a semblance of existence, since the sphere in which absence of freedom is dominant becomes a matter of pure chance. Absence of freedom is the rule and freedom an exception, a fortuitous and arbitrary occurrence. There can, therefore, be nothing wronger than to think that when it is a question of a particular form of existence of freedom, it is a particular question. It is the general question within a particular sphere. Freedom remains freedom whether it finds expression in printer&#39;s ink, in property, in the conscience, or in a political assembly.

Maybe,you should also realize that hardcore capitalists such as Mussolini, Batista, and Pinochet have been historically just as opposed to freedom of speech, if not more so, than their Leninist counterparts. :rolleyes:

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by EneME+Oct 28 2003, 06:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (EneME @ Oct 28 2003, 06:46 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 05:53 AM

[email protected] 27 2003, 06:58 PM
I&#39;m sick and tired of the attitude of right wing pricks that say..."Well, if you don&#39;t like America then leave&#33;" It doesn&#39;t matter what I try to say to them...it doesn&#39;t work..they just keep saying "leave." I try telling them "it&#39;s my fuckin&#39; home too, ya know?&#33;" I want to know why, why, WHY the fuck can&#39;t I ***** and try to change this country into a better place w/ out being told that I&#39;m unpatriotic, ungrateful, ignorant, naive, &c. Why is it always their answer? "If you don&#39;t like it, leave&#33;" That pisses me off so much. I have the right to be here just as much as them. If my politics, feelings, and whatnot disagrees...then it&#39;s my "right" to fuckin&#39; ***** about it and try to change it. That&#39;s the "beauty of America", isn&#39;t it? Fuck no. It doesn&#39;t look like it. I have nothing more to say on this right now. Chau.
OH Boo Hoo for you...the freedom of speech goes both ways my friend&#33; Say something outragous and get slammed&#33; Deal with it&#33; If freedom of speech hurts your feelings then indeed maybye you should move somewhere else. You do indeed have a right to ***** and I and others have a right to say "shut the hell up".....how you react to it defines your character. (or lack of)
That&#39;s the point....it depends on how u respond and react. Unfortunatly, "right-wingers" or whatever never have an actual intellecually based response, its all just diarrhea at the mouth....hence ur response...it&#39;s okay, but to us Leftists it really just reinforces our ideologies and stereotypes of the right...Righties make me laugh...they&#39;re a riot [/b]
Well it varies of rightish public. Offcourse you won&#39;t get any good response from the average american civilian. No offense but the american people come really dumb over to europeans. And I can understand after seeing various news about america and how the people react that you find that they don&#39;t have good arguments. In my country the rightish are far more slickier and have better arguments but even so they don&#39;t convince me anymore ;)

[Bodyguard]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 07:24 AM

you have a right to say it and I have a right to ignore it or to respond to it........this seems like a concept that many cant grasp......possibly because freedom of speech is not a concept looked up too in Communist teachings.

Silly capitalist.

Read this:

http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/184...press/index.htm (http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1842/free-press/index.htm)

Especially this:

http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/184...-press/ch05.htm (http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1842/free-press/ch05.htm)


Whenever one form of freedom is rejected, freedom in general is rejected and henceforth can have only a semblance of existence, since the sphere in which absence of freedom is dominant becomes a matter of pure chance. Absence of freedom is the rule and freedom an exception, a fortuitous and arbitrary occurrence. There can, therefore, be nothing wronger than to think that when it is a question of a particular form of existence of freedom, it is a particular question. It is the general question within a particular sphere. Freedom remains freedom whether it finds expression in printer&#39;s ink, in property, in the conscience, or in a political assembly.

Maybe,you should also realize that hardcore capitalists such as Mussolini, Batista, and Pinochet have been historically just as opposed to freedom of speech, if not more so, than their Leninist counterparts. :rolleyes:
Silly Marxist&#33; LOL We are not talking about Mussolini, Batista and Pinchet. The thread was about free speech in the US. MY point is (again) freedom of speech goes both ways.......when I post my views on here I dont whine about being picked on...I am fully aware that I am the minority on this site and expect lively debate. (It gets tiring to be called expletives thought...it just shows the lack of intellegence of some posters) But hey, it is my choice not to be here right? :blink:

[ComradeRobertRiley]

I agree desert fox, I am English, lived their for 19 years now live in Cyprus and the attitude towards yankees is that they are generaly pretty dumb, not just right wing but USA citizens always come of as stupid.

stereotypical yank (from european point of view) and this is also in agreament with my Dutch and Swiss friends:

rediculously overweight, loud mouth, dumb arse........kinda like Homer Simpson really LOL

[ComradeRobertRiley]

As the Manic Street Preachers said:

"freedom of speach wont feed my children"

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 09:03 PM
I agree desert fox, I am English, lived their for 19 years now live in Cyprus and the attitude towards yankees is that they are generaly pretty dumb, not just right wing but USA citizens always come of as stupid.

stereotypical yank (from european point of view) and this is also in agreament with my Dutch and Swiss friends:

rediculously overweight, loud mouth, dumb arse........kinda like Homer Simpson really LOL
But you have to say that is only normal we think that way about them like how they react and if you see what they do in their life you really wonder if they are quit sane. What is really hard to understand for me that some of the most intelligent doctors in the world are American, that is quit strange since their lower standard of education and all. Really amazing, really ...

[ComradeRobertRiley]

yeah DF i totally agree. Some of the things the yanbks do.....I know I think they are all crazy

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 09:25 PM
Some of the things the yanbks do.....
Well they want to be the most respected state of the world, but how can you get respect when you have citizens that create hotels for their pets, have beauty shops for their pets , etc ... That is just plain moronic and than they wonder why most Europeans and people of other countries mock and hate them :P

[ComradeRobertRiley]

lol yeah, I cant understand how anyone can respect the yanks lol

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 09:33 PM
lol yeah, I cant understand how anyone can respect the yanks lol
Well you can respect them for the fact they can do anything they want and get away with it, well you can&#39;t really respect them for that, but you can envy them for that. But really I can say 100 % safe that no country in the world respects america, they may give the illusion but that is only for their own gain and america believes them :P

[Sabocat]

Originally posted by Desert Fox+Oct 28 2003, 05:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Desert Fox @ Oct 28 2003, 05:23 PM)
[email protected] 28 2003, 09:03 PM
I agree desert fox, I am English, lived their for 19 years now live in Cyprus and the attitude towards yankees is that they are generaly pretty dumb, not just right wing but USA citizens always come of as stupid.

stereotypical yank (from european point of view) and this is also in agreament with my Dutch and Swiss friends:

rediculously overweight, loud mouth, dumb arse........kinda like Homer Simpson really LOL
But you have to say that is only normal we think that way about them like how they react and if you see what they do in their life you really wonder if they are quit sane. What is really hard to understand for me that some of the most intelligent doctors in the world are American, that is quit strange since their lower standard of education and all. Really amazing, really ... [/b]
LOL...you guys are too much&#33;

I&#39;m guessing that neither of you has even been here. Yes, the government is rediculous, yes there is a large segment of the population that are right wingers, overweight, loud, offensive. Are you saying no one in europe fits this description?

It&#39;s hard for you to understand that some of the best doctors in the world are here? Then I guess it&#39;s hard for you to believe that some of the best medical universities in the world are here, some of the best engineering schools are here.

All the inventions amerikans have contributed to the world, and yet created by a bunch of idiots....remarkable.

Are you assuming that no one in the U&#036; has an equivalent education to yours? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[EneME]

Originally posted by Desert Fox+Oct 28 2003, 09:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Desert Fox @ Oct 28 2003, 09:16 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 05:53 AM

[email protected] 27 2003, 06:58 PM
I&#39;m sick and tired of the attitude of right wing pricks that say..."Well, if you don&#39;t like America then leave&#33;" It doesn&#39;t matter what I try to say to them...it doesn&#39;t work..they just keep saying "leave." I try telling them "it&#39;s my fuckin&#39; home too, ya know?&#33;" I want to know why, why, WHY the fuck can&#39;t I ***** and try to change this country into a better place w/ out being told that I&#39;m unpatriotic, ungrateful, ignorant, naive, &c. Why is it always their answer? "If you don&#39;t like it, leave&#33;" That pisses me off so much. I have the right to be here just as much as them. If my politics, feelings, and whatnot disagrees...then it&#39;s my "right" to fuckin&#39; ***** about it and try to change it. That&#39;s the "beauty of America", isn&#39;t it? Fuck no. It doesn&#39;t look like it. I have nothing more to say on this right now. Chau.
OH Boo Hoo for you...the freedom of speech goes both ways my friend&#33; Say something outragous and get slammed&#33; Deal with it&#33; If freedom of speech hurts your feelings then indeed maybye you should move somewhere else. You do indeed have a right to ***** and I and others have a right to say "shut the hell up".....how you react to it defines your character. (or lack of)
That&#39;s the point....it depends on how u respond and react. Unfortunatly, "right-wingers" or whatever never have an actual intellecually based response, its all just diarrhea at the mouth....hence ur response...it&#39;s okay, but to us Leftists it really just reinforces our ideologies and stereotypes of the right...Righties make me laugh...they&#39;re a riot
Well it varies of rightish public. Offcourse you won&#39;t get any good response from the average american civilian. No offense but the american people come really dumb over to europeans. And I can understand after seeing various news about america and how the people react that you find that they don&#39;t have good arguments. In my country the rightish are far more slickier and have better arguments but even so they don&#39;t convince me anymore ;) [/b]
I am American...well Salvadoran but I&#39;ve lived in the US for 15 years lol But, yeah the American public really are looked upon as not the brightest of populations compared to the rest of the world, and I see that ignorance 24/7 cuz its all around me here.... Where are u from? And I do really respect righties that have bases to their arguments...for example during the campaigning and debates of the California recall I really admired Mc Clintock &reg; because he knew what he was talking about. Unlike Arnold and that other Republican.....Mc Clintock was just like Camejo but on the exact opposite side.

[commieboy]

guys...this is what gets said to me by ummm...EVERYONE&#33;

"Love it or leave it"
and i&#39;ve gotten sick of it so i&#39;ve come up with a good reply infact i said it today

"Why leave it, when i can change it?"

Just keep that mentality that it is our duty as American Citizens to rebel against unjust laws, and to topple any unworthy government and establish a new one....in the words of homer simpson..."We&#39;re not criminals....We&#39;re patriots.&#33;"

[synthesis]

Silly Marxist&#33; LOL We are not talking about Mussolini, Batista and Pinchet.

You&#39;re right - we were talking about Marx. I notice you chose not to address the Marx links I posted. There are two possibilities here: The first is that you read them, and realized you were wrong, and the second is that you opted not to read them, following the typical capitalist tactic of willful ignorance.


The thread was about free speech in the US.

Well, I assumed that since you clearly weren&#39;t talking about the theories of Marx in your remark about Marxist ideas, you may have been referring to the practices of Lenin, Stalin, Castro, Mao, et cetera, whose views do not align with mine. You do not agree with the practices of Mussolini or his cohorts, therefore I precluded your accusation by reminding you that &#39;guilt by association&#39; goes both ways.


MY point is (again) freedom of speech goes both ways.......

Of course it does, and Mazzen knew that. Why do you feel the need to point it out?


when I post my views on here I dont whine about being picked on...

Most capitalists do, so you&#39;re the exception rather than the rule in that regard; here&#39;s a cookie.


I am fully aware that I am the minority on this site and expect lively debate.

Good for you.


(It gets tiring to be called expletives thought...it just shows the lack of intellegence of some posters)

I called you a silly capitalist because you were blatantly wrong about the ideas of Marx, like silly capitalists are.


But hey, it is my choice not to be here right?

Sure.

[Bodyguard]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 02:05 AM

Silly Marxist&#33; LOL We are not talking about Mussolini, Batista and Pinchet.

You&#39;re right - we were talking about Marx. I notice you chose not to address the Marx links I posted. There are two possibilities here: The first is that you read them, and realized you were wrong, and the second is that you opted not to read them, following the typical capitalist tactic of willful ignorance.




Well, I assumed that since you clearly weren&#39;t talking about the theories of Marx in your remark about Marxist ideas, you may have been referring to the practices of Lenin, Stalin, Castro, Mao, et cetera, whose views do not align with mine. You do not agree with the practices of Mussolini or his cohorts, therefore I precluded your accusation by reminding you that &#39;guilt by association&#39; goes both ways.

[quote] MY point is (again) freedom of speech goes both ways.......

Of course it does, and Mazzen knew that. Why do you feel the need to point it out?


when I post my views on here I dont whine about being picked on...

Most capitalists do, so you&#39;re the exception rather than the rule in that regard; here&#39;s a cookie.



I am fully aware that I am the minority on this site and expect lively debate.

Good for you.


(It gets tiring to be called expletives thought...it just shows the lack of intellegence of some posters)

I called you a silly capitalist because you were blatantly wrong about the ideas of Marx, like silly capitalists are.


But hey, it is my choice not to be here right?

Sure.
I must admitt I only scimmed the links...I will go back an re read them.

Mazzen seemed not understand so I pointed them out again.

Thanks for the cookie....I assume it is not poisoned????? :unsure:

I was not talking about you regarding expletives.......being called "silly" is something most can take being called without offense&#33; LOL

[Mazzen]

Mazzen understands far more than others give him credit for. :D

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Love it or leave it is what douchbag Americans say when they&#39;ve been listening to too much Hannity, Coulter, and Limbaugh and happen to stumble accross another individual whose political views are anything left of the Republican party. When observed, you&#39;ll see that whenever their is a democratic president, they all say how he&#39;s not their president and how terrible he is and the president is the one who is unpatriotic, but when democrats (or anyone) complain about a Republican, then somehow the president and his supporters are patriotic, and the people are unpatriotic. The desire to improve a nation is in itself very patriotic, as it shows that you care about the nation and the peoples&#39; welfare. Telling people to leave is stupid and demonstrates complete narrow-mindedness. This mindset reveals the lack of influence Americans have over their government (or how much influence Republicans think people should have over their government) by showing that if you don&#39;t like something that has been done in government, then you don&#39;t like teh government since their nothing you as an American can do about the government.

[Bodyguard]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 02:58 AM
Mazzen understands far more than others give him credit for. :D
Evidently&#33; :)

[synthesis]

I must admitt I only scimmed the links...I will go back an re read them.

That would probably be a good idea.

"The free press is the ubiquitous vigilant eye of a people&#39;s soul, the embodiment of a people&#39;s faith in itself, the eloquent link that connects the individual with the state and the world, the embodied culture that transforms material struggles into intellectual struggles and idealises their crude material form. It is a people&#39;s frank confession to itself, and the redeeming power of confession is well known. It is the spiritual mirror in which a people can see itself, and self-examination is the first condition of wisdom. It is the spirit of the state, which can be delivered into every cottage, cheaper than coal gas. It is all-sided, ubiquitous, omniscient. It is the ideal world which always wells up out of the real world and flows back into it with ever greater spiritual riches and renews its soul."
-Karl Marx


Mazzen seemed not understand so I pointed them out again.

I think he understood it very clearly. I don&#39;t recall reading that he thought that it should be illegal to utilize freedom of speech in order to spout the usual "love it or leave it" bullshit; he merely pointed out the logical shortcomings of such an argument.

You responded with a statement asserting that he did not respect their freedom of speech, which is obviously not the case.

[Bodyguard]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 05:31 AM

I must admitt I only scimmed the links...I will go back an re read them.

That would probably be a good idea.

"The free press is the ubiquitous vigilant eye of a people&#39;s soul, the embodiment of a people&#39;s faith in itself, the eloquent link that connects the individual with the state and the world, the embodied culture that transforms material struggles into intellectual struggles and idealises their crude material form. It is a people&#39;s frank confession to itself, and the redeeming power of confession is well known. It is the spiritual mirror in which a people can see itself, and self-examination is the first condition of wisdom. It is the spirit of the state, which can be delivered into every cottage, cheaper than coal gas. It is all-sided, ubiquitous, omniscient. It is the ideal world which always wells up out of the real world and flows back into it with ever greater spiritual riches and renews its soul."
-Karl Marx


Mazzen seemed not understand so I pointed them out again.

I think he understood it very clearly. I don&#39;t recall reading that he thought that it should be illegal to utilize freedom of speech in order to spout the usual "love it or leave it" bullshit; he merely pointed out the logical shortcomings of such an argument.

You responded with a statement asserting that he did not respect their freedom of speech, which is obviously not the case.
I think we can agree that freedom of speech is a good thing, correct? But such a freedom means that one is going to hear things that one does not like. Can we agree on that? If I stood up on the campus of a Leftist university and said "commies suck" or some other such inflammitory remark I would expect a strong reaction&#33; Would I complain about the reaction knowing where I was???? Nope&#33; If one of you went to say BYU and said that "Mormons suck" dont you think you would be booed? So when I hear people whine about the reactions to thier statements I wonder how gutless they really are. THINK about what you say and how it will be responded too if you cant take the reaction. If you want to stand up and say "I love the feel of beaver pelt in my underwear&#33;" and dont care what people say, then more power to you&#33;

[synthesis]

Of course I know I&#39;m going to get a reaction when I tell people things they don&#39;t want to hear. (As I said previously - willful ignorance.)

Your point is true but irrelevant. Mazzen was not maligning the rejection of his ideas but rather one particularly illogical claim of his opponents. Therefore, your critique is completely tangential to the subject at hand.

[Bodyguard]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 06:04 AM
Of course I know I&#39;m going to get a reaction when I tell people things they don&#39;t want to hear. (As I said previously - willful ignorance.)

Your point is true but irrelevant. Mazzen was not maligning the rejection of his ideas but rather one particularly illogical claim of his opponents. Therefore, your critique is completely tangential to the subject at hand.
Sigh....I was not talking about Mazzen and if I did not understand his post then I apologize. I did not mean to critique him. I meant to show how silly people sound when they whine about the consequences of their statements. Does that clear things up a bit?

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by EneME+Oct 28 2003, 10:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (EneME @ Oct 28 2003, 10:06 PM)
Originally posted by Desert [email protected] 28 2003, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 05:53 AM

[email protected] 27 2003, 06:58 PM
I&#39;m sick and tired of the attitude of right wing pricks that say..."Well, if you don&#39;t like America then leave&#33;" It doesn&#39;t matter what I try to say to them...it doesn&#39;t work..they just keep saying "leave." I try telling them "it&#39;s my fuckin&#39; home too, ya know?&#33;" I want to know why, why, WHY the fuck can&#39;t I ***** and try to change this country into a better place w/ out being told that I&#39;m unpatriotic, ungrateful, ignorant, naive, &c. Why is it always their answer? "If you don&#39;t like it, leave&#33;" That pisses me off so much. I have the right to be here just as much as them. If my politics, feelings, and whatnot disagrees...then it&#39;s my "right" to fuckin&#39; ***** about it and try to change it. That&#39;s the "beauty of America", isn&#39;t it? Fuck no. It doesn&#39;t look like it. I have nothing more to say on this right now. Chau.
OH Boo Hoo for you...the freedom of speech goes both ways my friend&#33; Say something outragous and get slammed&#33; Deal with it&#33; If freedom of speech hurts your feelings then indeed maybye you should move somewhere else. You do indeed have a right to ***** and I and others have a right to say "shut the hell up".....how you react to it defines your character. (or lack of)
That&#39;s the point....it depends on how u respond and react. Unfortunatly, "right-wingers" or whatever never have an actual intellecually based response, its all just diarrhea at the mouth....hence ur response...it&#39;s okay, but to us Leftists it really just reinforces our ideologies and stereotypes of the right...Righties make me laugh...they&#39;re a riot
Well it varies of rightish public. Offcourse you won&#39;t get any good response from the average american civilian. No offense but the american people come really dumb over to europeans. And I can understand after seeing various news about america and how the people react that you find that they don&#39;t have good arguments. In my country the rightish are far more slickier and have better arguments but even so they don&#39;t convince me anymore ;)
I am American...well Salvadoran but I&#39;ve lived in the US for 15 years lol But, yeah the American public really are looked upon as not the brightest of populations compared to the rest of the world, and I see that ignorance 24/7 cuz its all around me here.... Where are u from? And I do really respect righties that have bases to their arguments...for example during the campaigning and debates of the California recall I really admired Mc Clintock ® because he knew what he was talking about. Unlike Arnold and that other Republican.....Mc Clintock was just like Camejo but on the exact opposite side. [/b]
I am from Belgium, and here people really look down on the US. It is hard to find anyone that has respect for them, espacially after the war on Iraq people look down on them. I respect any politician of whatever party when he/she has great arguments, can prove his/her theories with facts and is a debater.

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by Disgustapated+Oct 28 2003, 09:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Disgustapated @ Oct 28 2003, 09:58 PM)
Originally posted by Desert [email protected] 28 2003, 05:23 PM

[email protected] 28 2003, 09:03 PM
I agree desert fox, I am English, lived their for 19 years now live in Cyprus and the attitude towards yankees is that they are generaly pretty dumb, not just right wing but USA citizens always come of as stupid.

stereotypical yank (from european point of view) and this is also in agreament with my Dutch and Swiss friends:

rediculously overweight, loud mouth, dumb arse........kinda like Homer Simpson really LOL
But you have to say that is only normal we think that way about them like how they react and if you see what they do in their life you really wonder if they are quit sane. What is really hard to understand for me that some of the most intelligent doctors in the world are American, that is quit strange since their lower standard of education and all. Really amazing, really ...
LOL...you guys are too much&#33;

I&#39;m guessing that neither of you has even been here. Yes, the government is rediculous, yes there is a large segment of the population that are right wingers, overweight, loud, offensive. Are you saying no one in europe fits this description?

It&#39;s hard for you to understand that some of the best doctors in the world are here? Then I guess it&#39;s hard for you to believe that some of the best medical universities in the world are here, some of the best engineering schools are here.

All the inventions amerikans have contributed to the world, and yet created by a bunch of idiots....remarkable.

Are you assuming that no one in the U&#036; has an equivalent education to yours? :lol: :lol: :lol: [/b]
Well I have been in the USA some times. Mainly in california since that my cousin lives there. But don&#39;t doubt on the Belgian school system it is seen as one of the hightest ones in the world. And espacially on the lv of all school systems under college. I doubt that any American of the same age as I follows school on the same lv as I do. I don&#39;t want to be cocky by saying this, but I gonna give a bigger example : I doubt that any americna kid of the age of 16 follows the same school lv as a belgian kid that is in the ASO. Well as far as my is concerned all those wiz kids and big brains in america are white raves ...

[Sabocat]

I doubt that any americna kid of the age of 16 follows the same school lv as a belgian kid that is in the ASO.



Here is a sample of a public school in Boston, MA. This is the A/P curriculum.

http://www.bls.org/cfml/l3tmpl.cfm?page=AP...onors%20Courses (http://www.bls.org/cfml/l3tmpl.cfm?page=AP/Honors%20Courses)

Yes, all the high schools in the U&#036; are shit, but somehow students every year get accepted into MIT, Harvard, Scripps, CalTech, etc. etc. :lol: :lol:

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Disgustapated you misunderstand me and DF. We are not saying ALL yankees are like that just that this is the opinion of the stereotypical yankee and in my experiances of meeting yanks....well not all were fat but all were loud mouthed

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 12:23 PM

I doubt that any americna kid of the age of 16 follows the same school lv as a belgian kid that is in the ASO.



Here is a sample of a public school in Boston, MA. This is the A/P curriculum.

http://www.bls.org/cfml/l3tmpl.cfm?page=AP...onors%20Courses (http://www.bls.org/cfml/l3tmpl.cfm?page=AP/Honors%20Courses)

Yes, all the high schools in the U&#036; are shit, but somehow students every year get accepted into MIT, Harvard, Scripps, CalTech, etc. etc. :lol: :lol:
Well do you want to amaze me with those lessons. I have 36 hours/week. And my lessons are more varied. You don&#39;t really amaze me and don&#39;t come out with all those high names, that doesn&#39;t impress anyone, everyone knows you don&#39;t real skill more real &#036;&#036;&#036;. Don&#39;t try to fool us, we aren&#39;t that dumb :P

[Sabocat]

I&#39;m sorry...I must have missed the Belgium Space Program, Electricity, The cure for Polio, The first airplane to break the sound barrier, The Internet etc, etc...

Yes, everyone just gets into MIT, CalTech, Harvard because they bought their way in.... :lol: :lol: And then, I suppose they just buy all of those engineering achievements and medical breakthroughs. :lol: :lol:

Who do they buy them from? Belgium? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That curriculum was strictly the A/P program. Not the entire curriculum.

Enough already.

[Bodyguard]

I do like their waffles however.

[Hawker]

Me too you guys.I&#39;m tired of these fucking Yanks always telling us if you don&#39;t like America leave it.I was like your right I should leave America if I don&#39;t like it then I can go to another country and ther get stomped by there foreign policy.

America has turned the world into it&#39;s ***** ever since the USSR collapsed.The USSR was really the only thing that was stopping the US from controlling the world.You see the world is like a playground,there are two bullies the US and the USSR,when the US beat the USSR it now controlled the playground,the only way to bring a bully down is for every kid(country) to gang up on him.

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 07:55 PM
I&#39;m sorry...I must have missed the Belgium Space Program, Electricity, The cure for Polio, The first airplane to break the sound barrier, The Internet etc, etc...

Yes, everyone just gets into MIT, CalTech, Harvard because they bought their way in.... :lol: :lol: And then, I suppose they just buy all of those engineering achievements and medical breakthroughs. :lol: :lol:

Who do they buy them from? Belgium? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That curriculum was strictly the A/P program. Not the entire curriculum.

Enough already.
Well the only three good things from your list are the internet, electricity and the cure for Polio. And for the internet they need other countries too if they want to make worth it. I am not denying America has invented alot. But it doesn&#39;t mean you have invented alot that it makes the general people smart. You have a class smart people I concur but the general people are just dumb, face it ;) And like Bodyguard stated we have some of the best food and defantly the best beer over here. And I prefer anyday a fine meal above a plain that breaks the sound barrier :P

[Yazman]

Well, put it this way comrades, and this is complete truth:

The most common phrase where I live, and from what I&#39;ve seen, most other places here (in Australia), is "Stupid americans&#33;". It&#39;s been that way since approximately the beginning of the year.

[Scalawag]

I&#39;m sick and tired of the attitude of right wing pricks that say..."Well, if you don&#39;t like America then leave&#33;" It doesn&#39;t matter what I try to say to them...it doesn&#39;t work..they just keep saying "leave." I try telling them "it&#39;s my fuckin&#39; home too, ya know?&#33;" I want to know why, why, WHY the fuck can&#39;t I ***** and try to change this country into a better place w/ out being told that I&#39;m unpatriotic, ungrateful, ignorant, naive, &c. Why is it always their answer? "If you don&#39;t like it, leave&#33;" That pisses me off so much. I have the right to be here just as much as them. If my politics, feelings, and whatnot disagrees...then it&#39;s my "right" to fuckin&#39; ***** about it and try to change it. That&#39;s the "beauty of America", isn&#39;t it? Fuck no. It doesn&#39;t look like it. I have nothing more to say on this right now. Chau.

--------------------
"Dollar signs are the swastikas of the new millenium."

I totally agree with you. I love America. However, I am against the Military Industrial Establishment and Neo-Colonialism. Actually, I wish the right wing pricks would leave America. Once they left, America would be a great country.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

electricity?? maybe i miss understand but is someone trying to tell me the US invented electricity???

Because if they are, they are very very wrong only by about a thousand years though lol, good ol&#39; China :D

[Sabocat]

I should have been more specific. Electricity as Alternating Current. Used in transmission across powerlines.

[Desert Fox]

That was then and now is now. It is not because you have invented some great stuff that it means that every american is smart. The general american is a dumb nationalist and the ignorance <_< Like when I went on holiday in France this summer, watching "Le Tour Du France" they couldn&#39;t keep their mouth they were talking the etire time and the other people that came for le tour weren&#39;t that pleased with the loudmouthed american visitors.

[Sabocat]

Is it possible that maybe they were excited, being that Lance Armstrong, an american, won his 5th straight Tour?

I never said every american was smart, you insinuated that every american is stupid, no american student could match any belgium student, that they bought there way into our universities and bought their degrees. I was merely making a point.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

ok not sure about that but ill take your work digustapated, I know china invented electricity though.

Oh and btw the USA did NOT invent the internet, the very begining on the internet came about by a SCOTTISH man, then it was developed further by the US and UK.

To clear things up: The average american citizen on average is averagely dumber than citizens of Europe/South America/somalia LMAO in our opinions and the opinions of Europeans we have encountered, based on the Americans we have met/television/heresay/things that they do.

[Sabocat]

Oh and btw the USA did NOT invent the internet, the very begining on the internet came about by a SCOTTISH man, then it was developed further by the US and UK.

You&#39;re dreaming.

http://www.isoc.org/internet/history/brief...f.shtml#Origins (http://www.isoc.org/internet/history/brief.shtml#Origins)

Yes, most definitely the best way to judge an entire population is by hearsay, television, and random encounters.


The average american citizen on average is averagely dumber

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Yeah disgustapated I read it in Web-user magazine, it had a timeline of the internet and it said the very first person was a scottish guy, ive e-mailed web-user to see if they can verify it for me, will let all know the outcome

[ComradeRobertRiley]

lol glad you liked my dumb thing averagely lol

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2003, 03:56 PM
Is it possible that maybe they were excited, being that Lance Armstrong, an american, won his 5th straight Tour?


Oh impressive, well a Belgian Eddy Merxs did it BEFORE him to take you back on your previous statement and if you have respect for the sport you keep your waffel shut so that the other fans can enjoy it too. And the only reason why lance won is because Ulrich didn&#39;t scout the traject of the time traject and he waited for armstrong when he fell. And not to forget that Armstrong gets never checked on using forbidding products :P

[Sabocat]

Oh impressive, well a Belgian Eddy Merxs did it BEFORE him to take you back on your previous statement and if you have respect for the sport you keep your waffel shut so that the other fans can enjoy it too. And the only reason why lance won is because Ulrich didn&#39;t scout the traject of the time traject and he waited for armstrong when he fell. And not to forget that Armstrong gets never checked on using forbidding products

Merckx was perhaps the greatest of all time in overall victories in a multitude of races....However...He did not win 5 consecutive Tour de France&#39;s. He won in 69, 70,71,72 and last year 74. Not consecutive.

Miguel Indurain won 5 times consecutively, and Lance Armstrong has won 5 times consecutively.

Please elaborate on what forbidden products that Lance might be using. He is a cancer survivor and I find it highly unlikely that he is using muscle enhancement drugs. I also find it hard to believe that after winning 5 Tour&#39;s in a row, that they wouldn&#39;t be checking everything on him. Nice job trying to belittle the guy his victories and accomplishments. Good sportsmanship.

Here&#39;s a link with Merckx records at the Tour.

http://townsleyb.members.beeb.net/procycle/merckxe.htm



Please let&#39;s not hijack this thread anymore. I&#39;m finished.

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2003, 09:50 PM

Oh impressive, well a Belgian Eddy Merxs did it BEFORE him to take you back on your previous statement and if you have respect for the sport you keep your waffel shut so that the other fans can enjoy it too. And the only reason why lance won is because Ulrich didn&#39;t scout the traject of the time traject and he waited for armstrong when he fell. And not to forget that Armstrong gets never checked on using forbidding products

Merckx was perhaps the greatest of all time in overall victories in a multitude of races....However...He did not win 5 consecutive Tour de France&#39;s. He won in 69, 70,71,72 and last year 74. Not consecutive.

Miguel Indurain won 5 times consecutively, and Lance Armstrong has won 5 times consecutively.

Please elaborate on what forbidden products that Lance might be using. He is a cancer survivor and I find it highly unlikely that he is using muscle enhancement drugs. I also find it hard to believe that after winning 5 Tour&#39;s in a row, that they wouldn&#39;t be checking everything on him. Nice job trying to belittle the guy his victories and accomplishments. Good sportsmanship.

Here&#39;s a link with Merckx records at the Tour.

http://townsleyb.members.beeb.net/procycle/merckxe.htm



Please let&#39;s not hijack this thread anymore. I&#39;m finished
Thank you for enlighting me on Merckx, as fellow Belgian I don&#39;t know a thing about him. But you have to wonder, don&#39;t you find it hard to believe that a man who was nothing before his disease and after cancer he came back as a god. And if he is tested positive than the plain and simple explanation is that it is his medicine and he has to take it. So you tried but surely you don&#39;t believe Lance is anything without his drugs :P

EDIT: Oh and don&#39;t forget that Lance only does The Tour Du France in a year, he does some minor races but those are nothing compared to the races the other great ones of the moment like Ulrich do ...