Counter-Revolutionaries

[Mazzen]

I believe, in history, that counter-revolutionaries are always purged from society...whether they're killed, tortured, or exiled. In a truely commie society after a revolution, what will become of counter-revolutionaries? If the country in which the revolution happens is their home country...where will they go? If they stay, what will be their role in society, government, &c.? I'm just wondering...chau.

[Saint-Just]

Counter-revolutionary is a very serious term. I think if one is very dangerous they should be executed. With others it is more productive to imprison them to do forced labour.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

I believe there are many counter revolutionaries posing as commies/socialists on Che-Lives

[Kez]

very good robert, now go to treasure island and purge urself. u know nothing about the terms revolutionary, communist, or socialist

[BuyOurEverything]

I think that would depend on what is meant by counter-revolutionary. If you mean someone who just says that they don't like communism, then fine no big deal. If someone is actively trying to overthrow the government though, definately prison.

[Hawker]

Do what most communist countries have done to counter revolutionaries,round them up and shoot them. They should never be given a second chance to live. Shaka Zulu once said "Never let your leave your enemy behind,or else they'll rise up again and fly back at your throat".I myself believe in that saying that enemies should never see the light of day ever again once you have them in your grasp.

[Bradyman]

I think that if the revolution was successful, there would be no counter-revolitionaries. You don't see many people today revolting back for feudalism or for slavery. If the revolution takes place on a world-wide scale and imperialistic countries are overthrown, then chances are that there would be few counter-revolutionaries, certainly not enough to pose much harm.

It's really up to the people to decide if they agree with the counter folk. If conditions under communism or socialism or whatever you pefer are not as good as they are under capitalism (which I would seriously doubt) then chances are the majority of the people would be counter revolutionary and communism (or whatever) would not be suitable.

[redstar2000]

Experience suggests that most of those who are deeply opposed to proletarian revolution will flee for their lives...with whatever portable wealth they can carry in a suitcase.

The handful that remain should not prove to be a serious problem; they will be very demoralized for the most part.

Those who mount any kind of active resistance to the new society should be exiled or executed, the latter if they have actually used violence against the revolution.

I oppose prison and even more the use of prison labor. That would make us into the same kind of bastards that we just overthrew.

Don't forget what Marx said: being determines consciousness. If you function like a boss, a cop, a prison guard, a slave-driver, etc., then inevitably you will become those things.

Your good intentions don't count when they conflict with material reality.


I believe there are many counter revolutionaries posing as commies/socialists on Che-Lives

Fascinating! :lol: Let's have a "show trial". I want to be chief prosecutor! :D

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[The Feral Underclass]

During a revolutionary siutation I do not think you can hesitate and compramize. Lenin locked them up in prisions and then trusted them when they signed a piece of paper saying they would not organize against the revolution. Released them and....you go it right....they joined the whites.....Policemen and soldiers are our enemy. They would have absolutly no quirm whatsoever with putting a bullet in the back of my head. Counter-revolutionaries have to be shot. No sentimentality, these bastards are our enemy, and most often than not will surve no purpose in a post-revolutionary society.

[ernestolynch]

Nice to see the Self-Styled Anarchists here on this thread stating that they would shoot counter-revolutionaries. Shame they didn't do that in Spain, eh?

Would the following be classed as counter-revolutionaries by our SSA friends above?


food hoarders in a time of shortages
wreckers of industrial machinery
destroyers of livestock and crops
people plotting with outside objectionists



;)

[Ian]

I vote for Com. Redstar2000 Vyshinsky to be our chief prosecutor, he seems to want to be it a fair bit. :D

I really think that execution should only be in response to actual violence, assuming that a socialist revolution will be happening when capitalist gov'ts still retain state power an execution would serve them probably more than it would a socialist society rid of a pest.

Arming the proletariat will go along way to the defense of the revolution, even if you end up giving a few fuckers guns, the militia's could disarm them I suppose...


And whatever the hell Kamo is on about I do not know...

[suffianr]

I believe there are many counter revolutionaries posing as commies/socialists on Che-Lives

And where is your name list, chekist?

[Invader Zim]

Nothing should be done to them, because as Redstar said they are unlikley to do anything. All they are likley to do is just whine, and then get on with it. However if they become violant then they should be imprisoned for a period of time worthy of their crimes. Plain old vandalism, they should recieve a short period of community service, if they choose to steal a longer period of community service. If they go round setting light to buildings and murdering people, then a minimum of 10 years prison, would be a suitable punishment.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 03:19 AM
Don't forget what Marx said: being determines consciousness. If you function like a boss, a cop, a prison guard, a slave-driver, etc., then inevitably you will become those things.

Your good intentions don't count when they conflict with material reality.

Fascinating! :lol: Let's have a "show trial". I want to be chief prosecutor! :D

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Yes, Marx was right again :marx:. For a more philosophic parallel quote: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." I like metaphors. I guess it could be taken literaly too.

Woohoo! witch hunt! lol

Enigma- "Nothing should be done to them, because as Redstar said they are unlikley to do anything."
If the counter-revolutionairies are not hurtful to the workers, then just let the bastards play. Like I have said before, they will be discredited when a communist society prospers around them and hopefully they will just learn to be productive while teaching other would-be provocatuers by example.

I agree with The Anarchist Tension, in that, anyone who would try to hurt the progress of freedom in a newly developing society, I would personaly shoot dead, if necessary. I don't think you have to be a "SSA," to agree. I would hope most communists would do whatever it takes to support the movement to free the working class. The Anarchist Tension said, "I do not think you can hesitate and compramize," and I would say that both are a quick death to the spirit of any revolution. There is no compromizing in demanding all of the rights of the working class and there can be no hesitation in attempts to ensure them.

As for ernestolynch's list:

* food hoarders in a time of shortages
* wreckers of industrial machinery
* destroyers of livestock and crops
* people plotting with outside objectionists

I say, maybe depending on their right to the food supply, yes, yes and yes all depending on if they are trying to destroy a new communistly forming society.

Bradyman makes a good point too but I think it would take time before selfrightious capitalist zealots would stop trying to crush a communist movement.
:hammer:

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 03:05 PM
If they go round setting light to buildings and murdering people, then a minimum of 10 years prison, would be a suitable punishment.
10 Years for a counter-revolutionary murdering someone! Considering the danger of a counter-revolutionary I would have them executed. And the average non-politically related murder should receive life imprisonment. They would likely just once more join the resistance once they came out after 10 years.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I would favor imprisonment and rehabilitation for violent counter-revolutionaries, and exile/expulsion for the non-violent but disruptive...

I oppose killing of counter-revolutionaries unless it is in immediate self-defense. I like the quote from Marx that rs2k brought up... I fear that if we inflict bloody vengeance upon the old ruling class that we will corrupt our revolution--it can be a slippery slope into neo-Stalinism...

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Chairman Mao+Oct 28 2003, 06:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Chairman Mao @ Oct 28 2003, 06:05 PM)
[email protected] 28 2003, 03:05 PM
If they go round setting light to buildings and murdering people, then a minimum of 10 years prison, would be a suitable punishment.
10 Years for a counter-revolutionary murdering someone&#33; Considering the danger of a counter-revolutionary I would have them executed. And the average non-politically related murder should receive life imprisonment. They would likely just once more join the resistance once they came out after 10 years. [/b]
I disagree with killing anybody... but S-Club 7 definatly test that resolve... so I would not kill counter revolutionary murderers any more than I would kill your standard murderer, they are no different, and should get no special treatment.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Active counter-revolutionaries should not be put in prison they should be killed

[Man in the White Shirt]

The thing you must remeber is you can not make someone a communist. You are or you are not. You do not send them to "summer" camp and have them come back how we want them. They&#39;ll hate you before, they&#39;ll hate you when they&#39;re doing labour, and they&#39;ll hate you when they are back.

Capitialist are a blight on society, a cancer if you will. You never hear a doctor say "I&#39;m goin got remove half now and half next year", becasue there will be more cancer there then when you started&#33; Remove the cancer when you have the victim on the operationing table. Get it all when you have the chancce and the "operating staff" right there beside you willing and waiting. That is when you do it, quick, clean, but painful.

And I&#39;m not an anarchist.

To all you people who do not understand bad metaphors, shoot every capitialist when you have the chance.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

I thought your metaphors were good, I understood anyway and I agree, not sure about removing the cancer painlessly, wouldbe nice to cause cappies alot of pain lol

[BuyOurEverything]

The thing you must remeber is you can not make someone a communist. You are or you are not.

Bullshit. Everyone here raise your hand if you were born communist. Uh, ya that&#39;s what I thought. Most people can be taught and if it is possible, then they should be. If their actions pose a threat to society and there is no viable alternative, then absolutely shoot them but I think turning your foe can be a powerful weapon against the rest of them plus you have another productive member of society.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 04:03 PM
Bullshit. Everyone here raise your hand if you were born communist. Uh, ya that&#39;s what I thought. Most people can be taught and if it is possible, then they should be. If their actions pose a threat to society and there is no viable alternative, then absolutely shoot them but I think turning your foe can be a powerful weapon against the rest of them plus you have another productive member of society.
Exactly&#33; I did not start out a commie... for a time I was conservative

Now I am an adamant commie... people can change.

[Man in the White Shirt]

But you can not reeducate someone, that will only strenghen their resolve to stay a capitialist, or a Christian, etc, etc. You can&#39;t just say repeat after me "I love Marx, I love Engels, I love Lenin..." over and over again until they get it. Becasue they won&#39;t. Deciding to become a leftist is a life altering decision, (at least right now when there not all that many of us,) it is something you come to, not something that is forced upon you.

Robby, I do say it will be painful ;) .

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2003, 09:09 PM
Active counter-revolutionaries should not be put in prison they should be killed
That makes you as bad as any Fascist.

[redstar2000]

Would the following be classed as counter-revolutionaries by our SSA friends above?

food hoarders in a time of shortages

wreckers of industrial machinery

destroyers of livestock and crops

people plotting with outside objectionists

I would suggest the following responses:

*food hoarders--confiscation of excess food.

*wreckers of industrial machinery--if intent can be proven, execution; if resulting from incompetence, transfer to less skilled position.

*destroyers of livestock and crops--if intent can be proved, execution; if resulting from incompetence, transfer to non-farm position.

*plotting with outside objectionists--if no action has been taken, exile; if action has been taken, see above.

Note that considerable discretion will be involved...dropping an egg is not the same as setting fire to the chicken house, damaging a drill bit is not the same as pounding an expensive hi-tech machine into slag, a few extra loaves of bread in the cabinet is not the same as a secret warehouse full of food.

By the way, what is an "SSA"?

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[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 12:11 AM

Would the following be classed as counter-revolutionaries by our SSA friends above?

food hoarders in a time of shortages

wreckers of industrial machinery

destroyers of livestock and crops

people plotting with outside objectionists

I would suggest the following responses:

*food hoarders--confiscation of excess food.

*wreckers of industrial machinery--if intent can be proven, execution; if resulting from incompetence, transfer to less skilled position.

*destroyers of livestock and crops--if intent can be proved, execution; if resulting from incompetence, transfer to non-farm position.

*plotting with outside objectionists--if no action has been taken, exile; if action has been taken, see above.

Note that considerable discretion will be involved...dropping an egg is not the same as setting fire to the chicken house, damaging a drill bit is not the same as pounding an expensive hi-tech machine into slag, a few extra loaves of bread in the cabinet is not the same as a secret warehouse full of food.

By the way, what is an "SSA"?

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MY god, you make the Stalinists look like Santa...

*the counter revolutionary didnt screw the lid of a toothpaste tube on properly*

STONE HIM

Jesus what would you do to a striker... set up an inqusition?

*You know I here that counter revolutionarys can be purified by flame&#33;*

My god, I pray that if a revolution or vote leads to universal socialism, you dont get to a postion of power. I can already see the death squads on my back lawn. My crime, pissing you off on a web site.

[Man in the White Shirt]

Engima look at the material before you quote it.


dropping an egg is not the same as setting fire to the chicken house, damaging a drill bit is not the same as pounding an expensive hi-tech machine into slag, a few extra loaves of bread in the cabinet is not the same as a secret warehouse full of food.

You make a mistake, ok, you make many mistakes, find a new job.


the counter revolutionary didnt screw the lid of a toothpaste tube on properly

I think they would either be chaisted verbal or as Redstar put it
damaging a drill bit is not the same as pounding an expensive hi-tech machine into slag

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Man in the White [email protected] 29 2003, 12:22 AM
Engima look at the material before you quote it.


dropping an egg is not the same as setting fire to the chicken house, damaging a drill bit is not the same as pounding an expensive hi-tech machine into slag, a few extra loaves of bread in the cabinet is not the same as a secret warehouse full of food.

You make a mistake, ok, you make many mistakes, find a new job.


the counter revolutionary didnt screw the lid of a toothpaste tube on properly

I think they would either be chaisted verbal or as Redstar put it
damaging a drill bit is not the same as pounding an expensive hi-tech machine into slag
No your absolutly right, I was wrong, i was "sexing up" redstars comments. Alistair and Tony would be proud.

I will make the following alterations: -

*the counter revolutionary didnt screw the lid of a toothpaste tube on properly*

SACK HIM

So rather than killing the poor sod, you would just make the incompetant sod join a demeaning profession suitable for the workers obvious ignorance. Hell the guy lost the revolution a tube of tooth paste, which costs about £1, have to put them in a job where such losses cannot be made. Mabe be sweeping the roads, or cleaning the sewers. Cant dammage anything there.


Jesus I cant belive im hearing such nosensical, dogmatic, crap&#33;

[Man in the White Shirt]

What Excatly would Engima Do? (WEED) Sorry, I could not help myself there. But the Question stands.

[redstar2000]

Enema&#39;s Crime: pissing off redstar on a message board.

Recommended punishment: compelled to spend one year reading all of RAM&#39;s and Moskitto&#39;s posts.

Let the punishment fit the crime, ha ha. :lol:

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[suffianr]

Let the punishment fit the crime, ha ha.

Exactly. Why shouldn&#39;t laws apply to people according to the nature of their crime? For example:

Food hoarders should be tried for theft, wreckers of industrial machinery/ destroyers of livestock & crops should be tried for industrial sabotage/destroying public property, and people plotting with outside objectionists should be tried for treason or detained for compromising national security, or whatever.

They shouldn&#39;t be judged, condemned and imprisoned/executed as counter-revolutionaries but as the criminals that they are. No drama.

[crazy comie]

Make the counter revoulotionarys do jobs they hate and make them do forced labour and reahabillatate them.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Man in the White [email protected] 29 2003, 12:47 AM
What Excatly would Engima Do? (WEED) Sorry, I could not help myself there. But the Question stands.
I breath, I eat, I sleep, and until receantly I worked part time in a library, and the rest of my time in a sixth form.

What remote relevance does it have to do with the topic at hand?

BTW, I do not smoke tobacco never mind weed.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 01:18 AM
Enema&#39;s Crime: pissing off redstar on a message board.

Recommended punishment: compelled to spend one year reading all of RAM&#39;s and Moskitto&#39;s posts.

Let the punishment fit the crime, ha ha. :lol:

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I could deal with that, having to spend my time sifting through your web site, and repairing the design errors would be more of a punishment.

BTW on a serious note, you should change the "mouse over event" on your links rather than turning white, to another colour, as you cannot see the link when your over it.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by Enigma+Oct 28 2003, 11:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Enigma @ Oct 28 2003, 11:01 PM)
[email protected] 28 2003, 09:09 PM
Active counter-revolutionaries should not be put in prison they should be killed
That makes you as bad as any Fascist. [/b]
It may seem &#39;fascist&#39; to liberals, however communists subscribe to a situation in society in which ideological struggle takes place. There is not room for counter-revolutionaries. Killing people is a severe measure, however it is sometimes necessary. A slave breaking their chains is not morally equal to the slave owner who outs the slave in those chains. A unilateral view such as this is liberal and ignores ideological struggle.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 01:18 AM
Enema&#39;s Crime: pissing off redstar on a message board.

Edit: - too harsh.

[Man in the White Shirt]

Originally posted by Enigma+Oct 29 2003, 09:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Enigma @ Oct 29 2003, 09:52 AM)
Man in the White [email protected] 29 2003, 12:47 AM
What Excatly would Engima Do? (WEED) Sorry, I could not help myself there. But the Question stands.
I breath, I eat, I sleep, and until receantly I worked part time in a library, and the rest of my time in a sixth form.

What remote relevance does it have to do with the topic at hand?

BTW, I do not smoke tobacco never mind weed. [/b]
To counter revolutionries, dumbee. You are quick to attack our ideas, and you have no solution your self. Only critique if you have an answer, friend.

[Xvall]

I do believe that &#39;counter-revolutionaries&#39; (I&#39;m not sure what you mean by this, it&#39;s pretty vague; it can mean anyone from Ken Lay to the kid who sells lemonade) can be rehabilitated. At least it would probably be called rehabilitation. Of course we can&#39;t force ideas into their head, (We literally could, in theory, but most people wouldn&#39;t advocate it as it would require surgery.) but we could easily convince them to shut the hell up. Although this wouldn&#39;t apply to simply everyone with a disagreement with the society. Let&#39;s take an extreme example here:

Ok. Joe Hitler is an Anti-Semitic Fascist that hates Communism, Jews, any just about anything else you can think of. Joe Hitler is disruptive. He damages property, shouting obscenities and racial slurs at nearly everyone encounters. He violates law and has complete disrespect for everyone. Joe gets a letter in his mail slot telling him to be ready by 5:30 that evening to take a trip to a rehabilitation center. Joe will probably ignore the notice, so several prepared men may have to find him, render him unconscious, and bring him to the rehabilitation facility himself. Joe won&#39;t like this at all. The rehabilitation center probably won&#39;t involve him reading at all, considering that he would just ignore everything said to him. Instead, he might simply have the sense knocked into him (Nothing excessive, no torture or anything) by some people. (Preferably Jews, Communists, or members of some other &#39;group&#39; Joe dislikes) Of course, this isn&#39;t going to educate him at all; but chances are he&#39;s going to think twice before walking down the street causing problems.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

I would recommend that people who are not communist within a communist society should be ENCOURAGED to leave at the expence of a state to the country of thier choosing in order to cut down on counter-revolutionary activity. Killing people is an option of last resort, and I feel that this would be a much better option. Remove the counter-revolutionaries before they sabotage society, and furthermore, Communists from capitalist countries should be brought in at the expence of the state in order to create a true socialist haven, much the same way that Cuba is with the US, only to a greater extent.

[Man in the White Shirt]

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr, while your idea sounds nice in theory, who invaded Cuba in the sixties? Those people Castro allowed to leave. These same people terrorize Cuba via covert operations to this day. As long as countries indoctrine their people with patriotism and other forms of reactionary bullshit, poeple will want to return to their land of birth or their parents&#39;. An exaple is the Jews desiring and fighting for a Zionist country for five thousand years. People rarely give up this hope.

People will want to return and will fight to do so. The question then becomes, do you stamp them out at the source when you have the chance, or do you wait until it grows into something bigger?

I vote we squash &#39;em when you have the chance&#33;

And in regards to encouraging Communist to move to your theorical country, who will liberate the oppressed masses in their home country? Support them in spreading the revolution, do not try and take them away from where they are needed.

[crazy comie]

you can force pepole to go to rehabilataition centers.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by crazy [email protected] 30 2003, 11:37 AM
you can force pepole to go to rehabilataition centers.
True, capitalists are sick, self-diluted people. I think many of them will need rehabilataition but those that commit horrible crimes to advance the worst aspects of capitalist oppression, should be dealt with very seriously. They need to firstly, be removed from active positions in society, then they may have the opportunity to "get better." If we can re-socialize the most destructive and alienated members of society, then our movement will be much stronger and much more attractive.

[Xvall]

I see where man in the Whit Shirt is going, however I don&#39;t think that letting counter-revolutionaries linger around (In in some cases, depending on what you think should be done, martyr themselves) would be any better than simply kicking them out. I&#39;m under the impression that the U.S would be supporting acts of terrorism against Cuba regardless of whether or not anti-socialists were granted to leave. Although I agree that you should support the Communists and Socialists in other countries to make a change there.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Regardless, Communists are needed more in some places more than others. For example, 100,000 Maoist fighters put into Nepal or Columbia would result in the almost immediate liberation of the territories in question, at which point they can stay, return to there country of origion, or move on to another country in need of reinforcements. Vs 100,000 fighters in the US would be immediately squashed. Your armchair revolutionary, with a job and family, I can understand, but people who are fit for combat such as myself who dont any responsibilities should be trained and deployed somewhere where they can be made useful, either within local revolutionary groups, or fighting beside them, rather than wait here till the revolution, which surely I will never see while I am out of my fighting years at least.

[Bianconero]

We already had a topic on this quite some time ago, Comrade RAF made an interesting statement there I could not agree with entirely. I would now, though.

Anyway, I think repressions are more than just necessary, they are part of Marxist - Leninist ideology, they are a result of class struggle, of the oppressed getting rid of their oppressors, of the workers losing their chains, of the great revolutionary struggle that will one day prevail. Executions are a harsh and rude political method of the revolution. No true revolutionary likes the idea of executions, but every revolutionary knows that they are needed to defend the revolution, to defend the people.

&#39;It is either them or us.&#39; -- the &#39;evil god-hating communist murderer&#39; Ernesto Guevara de la Serna

Just have a look at history.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2003, 10:35 PM
Regardless, Communists are needed more in some places more than others. For example, 100,000 Maoist fighters put into Nepal or Columbia would result in the almost immediate liberation of the territories in question, at which point they can stay, return to there country of origion, or move on to another country in need of reinforcements. Vs 100,000 fighters in the US would be immediately squashed. Your armchair revolutionary, with a job and family, I can understand, but people who are fit for combat such as myself who dont any responsibilities should be trained and deployed somewhere where they can be made useful, either within local revolutionary groups, or fighting beside them, rather than wait here till the revolution, which surely I will never see while I am out of my fighting years at least.
True perhaps. However, perhaps a bit difficult to execute. These movements would be helped just as much by money and arms, with which they could recruit, train and arm more people indiginous to the areas they are already operating in. Although, there is currently a problem with that in that there are no big socialist powers to provide for this.

[crazy comie]

isn&#39;t this starting to get of topic.