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blake 3:17
9th September 2011, 23:13
A civil society strategy for revitalizing the Left

September 9, 2011
[1]
Welcome to rabble.ca's extended series on the Canadian left -- Reinventing democracy, reclaiming the commons: A progressive dialogue on the future of Canada -- a look at where it stands after the 2011 federal election, and what the future can hold. The series will run in this, rabble.ca's 10th year, and is curated by journalist Murray Dobbin.

What happened to the North American Left? Why is it that, even now, when capitalism seems so obviously unappealing, unsustainable and unfair, the Left cannot mount a more serious challenge to the Right or its grim austerity agenda?

Indeed, what happened to the Left's former ability to mobilize huge numbers into powerful social movements, to inspire working-class people with appealing visions of post-capitalist alternatives, and to strike fear into the hearts of elites who once worried that the Left posed a credible threat to their power and privilege?

The Left's role in its own decline

If we are serious about figuring all this out, and reversing this trajectory, we have to be willing to take some responsibility for our predicament. We can't just blame the "propaganda" circulated by the corporate media, the repressive role of the police and the courts, or the way electoral systems are stacked against our efforts to promote social and environmental justice and political and economic democracy. The news media, the police, and state institutions have always waged a determined struggle against the Left; but the Left used to be able to overcome these obstacles and make real gains, building powerful mass movements that sometimes racked up real victories. Above all, the Left was once able to claim the allegiance of huge numbers of people, but at least in North America this is no longer the case.

My questions here can all be boiled down to this: What has the Left done, or failed to do, that might have hastened or exacerbated its own decline, and what can we do today to help turn things around?

There is, of course, a conventional answer to these questions. Some people on the broad Left, and almost everyone on the Right, would say that the Left's historic error was to articulate a political vision ("socialism") that strayed too far from capitalism. Its supposed aim to introduce democratic and egalitarian economic planning, they say, made socialism unable to handle the overwhelming demands of information-processing that arise in a complex modern society. Only market regulation and profit-motivated investment decisions can handle these demands, according to this view.

But I would argue that the real story is almost the exact opposite of this more familiar one. The real-world experiments in "socialism" during the 20th century did not fail because the distance that separated them from capitalism grew too great, making them unworkable. On the contrary, they failed because the proximity between those efforts and capitalism made these "socialisms" -- East European command planning and Western social democracy -- too difficult to distinguish from the capitalist system that they were supposed to replace.

These supposedly socialist political projects actually embraced most of capitalism's worst features: its bureaucratic mode of governance, its technocratic approach to designing and implementing public policy, its hierarchical and authoritarian norms of workplace organization, its Realpolitik patterns of international relations, its cultural celebration of productivity and growth as ends in themselves, and its elitist understanding of who is best suited to exercise political power and spearhead social change.

At the heart of the problem was the Left's often uncritical embrace of one of the most oppressive, disempowering and alienating institutions that most working-class people ever have the misfortune to interact with in their lives: the modern state. At some point, the Left dropped its former aim of encouraging the "self-emancipation" of working people, and replaced it with an aim that to most people seems like its opposite: technocratic "public administration" by state agencies.

This shift, from the anti-statist "community-based socialism" that dominated the early Marxist, Owenite, Guild-socialist, syndicalist and anarchist Left in the 19th and early-20th centuries, was replaced in the years after the First World War by the two most influential forms of "socialism" in the 20th century: statist command planning, typified by the USSR, and Keynesian welfare state expansionism, typified by European social democracy.

In the course of this fateful shift, the Left gave up almost entirely on the emancipatory promise of liberation from alienation, exploitation and bureaucratic administration that had once been its stock in trade -- a promise which had only a few decades earlier led European radicals to embrace the bold "smash the state" ethos of the Paris Commune.

Having made this fateful wrong turn so long ago, what can the Left do today to set a new course, to restore the viability and the appeal of its project?

What the Left needs above all is to rupture its identification with the capitalist state. Government is not an actual or potential ally of the Left against Big Business. In part this is because, especially in this neo-liberal epoch, government is in fact already an arm of Big Business. But more importantly, it is because the bureaucratic structures of the capitalist state are incapable in principle of serving as a vehicle for the self-liberation of people who aspire not to be administered by a welfare-maximizing state apparatus, but to participate in the democratic self-organization of their own workplaces and communities. What is needed, in short, is a reassertion of the classical leftist ideal of a community-based socialism, a socialism of popular self-organization and horizontal democracy, not one of public sector maximalism.

In part, that means replacing the utilitarian and technocratic images of a post-capitalist social order with more appealing images of radically democratic forms of community-based egalitarian economic democracy. But, in more immediately practical terms, it means a strategic reorientation of the Left: a turn away from the habit of engaging primarily with state institutions (parliaments, regulatory agencies and the welfare state), toward engaging primarily with grassroots, community-based forms of popular self-organization.

A civil society strategy

The Left, in other words, must turn its attention back toward civil society: union locals, cooperatives, social movement organizations, mutual aid projects, popular assemblies and other community associations. These expressions of grassroots democracy and popular self-organization -- operating independently of both the market economy and the state -- offer the Left the crucial benefit that they do not replicate the alienating and disempowering character of corporations and governments (although the Left is unfortunately overpopulated with bureaucratic and staff-led union and NGO apparatuses that today emulate the administrative systems of elite institutions). Instead, these grassroots civil society organizations embody the "every cook can govern" spirit of the classical (pre-WWI) Left.

When the Left does engage with the state, as it sometimes must, its default demand should be to transfer power from corporations and the state to civil society. Such a civil society strategy is arguably already implicit in the notion of a community-based socialism.

For example, whereas a statist strategy would demand that the government's budget adopt welfare-maximizing priorities, a civil society strategy would demand that budgeting power be ceded to a grassroots participatory budgeting process, centrally involving open public assemblies. Whereas a statist strategy would demand "public housing" owned and operated by the state, a civil society strategy would demand that state funds be used to establish democratically self-governing non-profit housing cooperatives, collectively owned by their members.

And, whereas a statist strategy would demand "nationalizing" banks as "public enterprises," a civil society strategy would demand that banks be dismantled and reconstructed as genuinely democratic and member-controlled financial cooperatives ("credit unions"), operating in the public interest. This transfer of power and control from corporations and governments to civil society associations should be seen as the main aim of the Left. From this point of view, "winning" for the Left means replacing the power and prerogatives of corporations and governments with empowered participatory self-governing associations within civil society.

How we resist neo-liberalism

There is no doubt that a civil society strategy for the Left raises a number of difficult questions. Above all, it poses a very serious set of questions about how the radical Left should fight back against neo-liberalism, notably in its contemporary guise of the "austerity" agenda. Given that neo-liberalism's primary policy aspiration is to privatize public services, and to replace public administration (the "public sector" economy) with market regulation (the "private sector" economy), shouldn't the Left be defending the state (the public sector) against neo-liberal privatization?

For better or for worse, what the Left needs in addressing this question is nuance. We have to be able to distinguish between (for example) transferring control of a public housing complex to a private landlord ("privatization"), in pursuit of the corporate/neo-liberal agenda, and transferring control of that same public housing complex to the residents themselves ("cooperative conversion"), under pressure from grassroots popular mobilization.

If we refuse to make this distinction, either by celebrating privatization as a victory against the state or by vilifying cooperative conversion as if it were itself a type of privatization, we fall into one of two familiar traps: the temptation to see the state as the main enemy, letting corporations disastrously off the hook, or (more likely among leftists) the temptation to align ourselves politically with the ill-fated project of "public administration socialism," in which the Left plays the role of supporting the capitalist state as a bulwark against corporate power. This is at the heart of the Left's historic failure to champion freedom and democracy against not only their corporate enemies, but their bureaucratic-statist enemies, as well.

Once taking this path, the Left quickly finds itself defending the state against the negative experience of it that so pervades the lives of poor and working-class people, even to the point of championing the increase of taxes on workers as 'progressive' because it supports the state.

The Left, or at least the radical Left, needs to remember that its project by definition demands that sweeping social reorganization and reconstruction from below be entertained and where possible carried out. Sometimes, this means tactically defending public services, run on a non-profit basis by the state, against the immediate threat of profit-motivated privatization, which we rightly oppose as a step in the wrong direction altogether. But ultimately, the Left must aim higher than state-administration: the Left must aim to replace both the profit-motivated private sector economy and the bureaucratically administered public sector economy, in favour of a community-based, democratic and egalitarian post-capitalist economic democracy.

This means that we must admit the obvious: that publicly owned enterprises and public services offered by the capitalist welfare state do not meet this standard by any stretch of the imagination. Our project demands a civil society strategy, not a statist one. What we fight for is not a bigger, more expansive state, but more democratic and egalitarian forms of grassroots popular self-organization: a more participatory and community-based set of economic and political institutions, controlled from below by working people themselves.

Above all, a civil society strategy is necessary because our world needs a Left that can inspire hope, not just for a more productive and well-administered society, but for a freer, more democratic, less alienating society, controlled directly by its members, as opposed to being controlled by administrators, supposedly acting in the public interest. This ideal of a "community-based socialism" was a vision that once united the entire radical Left -- Marxists and anarchists, guild socialists and Owenites, syndicalists and council communists -- and I think there is reason to hope that it could some day do so again.

Steve D'Arcy is a democratic theorist and a climate justice and economic democracy organizer in London, Ontario, Canada. He can be reached at [email protected]

Die Neue Zeit
10th September 2011, 01:35
In part, that means replacing the utilitarian and technocratic images of a post-capitalist social order with more appealing images of radically democratic forms of community-based egalitarian economic democracy. But, in more immediately practical terms, it means a strategic reorientation of the Left: a turn away from the habit of engaging primarily with state institutions (parliaments, regulatory agencies and the welfare state), toward engaging primarily with grassroots, community-based forms of popular self-organization.

A civil society strategy

The Left, in other words, must turn its attention back toward civil society: union locals, cooperatives, social movement organizations, mutual aid projects, popular assemblies and other community associations. These expressions of grassroots democracy and popular self-organization -- operating independently of both the market economy and the state -- offer the Left the crucial benefit that they do not replicate the alienating and disempowering character of corporations and governments (although the Left is unfortunately overpopulated with bureaucratic and staff-led union and NGO apparatuses that today emulate the administrative systems of elite institutions). Instead, these grassroots civil society organizations embody the "every cook can govern" spirit of the classical (pre-WWI) Left.

There is the danger here of this becoming a "change the world without taking power" illusion. I say this because the author has a distorted framework of what to do in different periods, ironically based very much on Kautsky's The Road to Power!

He's not exactly for political party-movements before revolutionary periods.

Anyways, his suggestion is good, insofar as it is a means of politicizing the working class. Such politicization by nature cannot avoid tackling questions regarding the capitalist state itself, but also its actions.


When the Left does engage with the state, as it sometimes must, its default demand should be to transfer power from corporations and the state to civil society. Such a civil society strategy is arguably already implicit in the notion of a community-based socialism.

I agree with half of his statement. "Community-based socialism" gives the illusion of having implicitly within itself a "civil society" strategy. I mean, just look at Cameron's "Big Society" rhetoric in the UK.


For example, whereas a statist strategy would demand that the government's budget adopt welfare-maximizing priorities, a civil society strategy would demand that budgeting power be ceded to a grassroots participatory budgeting process, centrally involving open public assemblies.

I wrote of this in my work, so I have no problems here.


Whereas a statist strategy would demand "public housing" owned and operated by the state, a civil society strategy would demand that state funds be used to establish democratically self-governing non-profit housing cooperatives, collectively owned by their members.

I have no problems here, either. This can be part of a broader framework of all sorts of cooperatives "with state aid."


And, whereas a statist strategy would demand "nationalizing" banks as "public enterprises," a civil society strategy would demand that banks be dismantled and reconstructed as genuinely democratic and member-controlled financial cooperatives ("credit unions"), operating in the public interest.

This, however, is where I strongly disagree. This leads to mutualist illusions. Public management, authority, oversight, etc. over the entire money supply (the basis for "democratic investment" later on) can only be realized by means of a public financial monopoly that would make Gosbank look so primitive.


We have to be able to distinguish between (for example) transferring control of a public housing complex to a private landlord ("privatization"), in pursuit of the corporate/neo-liberal agenda, and transferring control of that same public housing complex to the residents themselves ("cooperative conversion"), under pressure from grassroots popular mobilization.

Historically, this has been used as a means for actual privatization down the road, so we should be wary of this, despite what he says later on. We should be more politically aggressive in dealing with private-to-cooperative conversions.

Philosopher Jay
12th September 2011, 05:48
It sounds like the type of Utopian Socialist fantasies that Marx rejected in the Manifesto. It assumes that Capitalism is a fair system that just desires the best for people. It is a little like suggesting that we organize a drug intervention for Count Dracula and after we talk to him, he'll drink diet coke instead of blood.

blake 3:17
13th September 2011, 22:48
A quick note -- the piece in the OP is part of ongoing discussions about the Canadian Left. For many years the Left has been almost entirely defensive about protecting public services and various elements of the welfare state. I posted this piece because I thought it was a creative effort to get out of some of this impasse.

Folks looking for more should see rabble.ca, The Socialist Project site and Canadian Dimension for more scope.

DNZ, I thought you'd agree with a fair portion. When I was talking to D'Arcy earlier this year some of his thinking reminded me of your thoughts and posts. I know I've been influenced by the "without taking power" trend of thought & activism, but haven't consciously explored it as such.

Do you know the thinker behind some of Cameron's ideas around volunteerism? I read a couple of philosophical-ideological pieces that the Cameron Conservatives were pushing and they had some positive elements.


It sounds like the type of Utopian Socialist fantasies that Marx rejected in the Manifesto. It assumes that Capitalism is a fair system that just desires the best for people. It is a little like suggesting that we organize a drug intervention for Count Dracula and after we talk to him, he'll drink diet coke instead of blood.

There's definitely a Utopian streak here. The author is a radical anti-capitalist eco-socialist. He is proposing a method of achieving reforms that challenge both the market and the state.

Die Neue Zeit
14th September 2011, 02:23
DNZ, I thought you'd agree with a fair portion. When I was talking to D'Arcy earlier this year some of his thinking reminded me of your thoughts and posts. I know I've been influenced by the "without taking power" trend of thought & activism, but haven't consciously explored it as such.

I read D'Arcy's stuff last year or prior, everything up to and including Strategy, Meta-strategy, and Anti-capitalist Activism. This was the particular work that acknowledged Kautsky's revolutionary/non-revolutionary period contribution, and yet this was the same work that showed he wasn't into party-movement-building.


He is proposing a method of achieving reforms that challenge both the market and the state.

I think a partial yet significant rehabilitation of Lassalle's Workers Cooperatives with State Aid is in order. I would focus on this well above any agitation for turning public services at the moment to cooperative control.

syndicat
14th September 2011, 17:58
The Left, in other words, must turn its attention back toward civil society: union locals, cooperatives, social movement organizations, mutual aid projects, popular assemblies and other community associations. These expressions of grassroots democracy and popular self-organization -- operating independently of both the market economy and the state -- offer the Left the crucial benefit that they do not replicate the alienating and disempowering character of corporations and governments (although the Left is unfortunately overpopulated with bureaucratic and staff-led union and NGO apparatuses that today emulate the administrative systems of elite institutions). Instead, these grassroots civil society organizations embody the "every cook can govern" spirit of the classical (pre-WWI) Left.


to put this another way, steve favors a strategy built around the social movement left, not a party left. i agree with him on this. he's a marxist and I believe a member of the New Socialist Group which is interested in commonalities between marxism and the libertarian left, and a social movement strategy makes that feasible. he's certainly not a utopian socialist.

blake 3:17
25th September 2011, 05:45
Steve & I were both members of the New Socialist Group -- at present we`re both members of the Greater Toronto Workers Assembly.

Back to the main points -- I think what D`Arcy is exploring are how do we build the basis for dual power. Simply calling, or enacting, a general strike or a left party moving to power will not create socialism in North America. I agree with SD that the Left has been over reliant on the state -- trade unions, NGOs and social service agencies have made just demands on the state, but also get embroiled in its byzantine structures. Getting caught up that way means we reproduce the hierarchies that we oppose.

Given that North America is not on the verge of socialist transformation, what steps do we take to build democratic and egalitarian social organizations in the present?

Die Neue Zeit
25th September 2011, 06:49
Well, I wrote about this in the commentary "Practical Issues and Revisiting the Party Question."

Comrade-Z
26th September 2011, 05:53
The Left, in other words, must turn its attention back toward civil society: union locals, cooperatives, social movement organizations, mutual aid projects, popular assemblies and other community associations.

This is all well and good, and I always have an instinctual preference for more local, directly-democratic, and federated-type organizations judging from the fact that these organizational forms appear to be more resistant towards corruption (although I have my doubts...even the anarchist CNT leadership started to give away its organization's power in compromises with the rest of the popular front when it should have been advancing the revolution, and it took a rebellion of the rank-and-file to put the CNT on a revolutionary track once again in May 1937...only to be crushed by the Stalinists), but just organizing "community associations" isn't a magic bullet.

In the "representative state," the state negotiates for us the terms of our surrender to the capitalist class in exchange for the capitalist class's patronage of our city/region/country (or else the capitalist class leaves with their capital seeking greener pastures). With directly-democratic organizations, we get to negotiate for ourselves the terms of our surrender to the capitalist class in exchange for the capitalist class's patronage! Hooray!

We cannot lose sight of the goal of the economic and political rule of the working class.

What I notice about working in "community organizations" is that the temptation of reformism is even more acute than when working in a political party vying for power.

In such a political party, even if you are a million years away from seizing political power as a mass working-class party, you are at least symbolically closer to the goal of working-class political power, such that it's harder to lose sight of that ultimate goal (although even so, that doesn't prevent party after party from doing just that!)

With community organizations, it's even worse. The prospect of "working class political power" usually appears as a very far-off thing, and community organizations will often not want your help if you are going to stick to your guns and explicitly raise the question of how this particular struggle fits into a larger struggle against capitalism. You'll be "stirring up trouble" or "impeding unity" or "scaring away community allies." I've seen it time and time again.

And then for those activists who are willing to drop any talk of revolution, of the political rule of the working-class, of how this struggle can be interpreted from an historical materialist perspective, etc., those activists end up generally being the most energetic and successful organizers for community reformist efforts...but in the process they lose sight of the eventual goal, or even if somewhere deep in their mind they are thinking about it, they lose all will to raise the issue of revolution, and they sink into full-fledged, opportunistic reformism.

I've seen this time and time again too. I had some solid, theoretically-astute anarchist comrades in Boston just get assimilated into this CORI Reform campaign, Borg-like. I won't deny that it was a good cause. CORI Reform was about getting the State government to drop this requirement it had of businesses and institutions to run mandatory background checks on all employees, so if you had ever been to prison or even arrested, you were basically "blacklisted" from most forms of employment.

All well and good. But my anarchist comrades would not raise the issue of how this campaign fit into the larger class struggle. That sounded "crazy" and "infantile" when I demanded that this be a part of our involvement. I also objected to accepting the involvement of local clergy in the campaign uncritically (I was willing to work with them, but only if we qualified our cooperation with them with a critical statement about the historical role of religious organizations in social movements and the need for a materialist understanding of society and reality. This wasn't just a pedantic argument over principle. The clergy's understanding of the struggle was explicitly anti-class struggle and all about "fairness" and all that bullcrap, and the clergy conveyed this understanding of the struggle every time one of them spoke). That, of course, was off the table too, so I stopped participating in this campaign with them.

A year later, those same "anarchists" were telling me how I needed to vote for Obama and the Democrats. Everything about their political work started to reek of careerism. I can only imagine how they have evolved politically since then.

And did the Boston Workers' Alliance (you know, that open, democratic community association that we were supposed to be having a radicalizing influence on) become any more class-conscious? Ha!
http://bostonworkersalliance.org/?cat=5

Do you get the sense that people in the BWA have any idea of how their jobs are systematically threatened by capitalism and of how none of these reforms will be secure until the working-class itself takes power?

Nope. Oh god, they are still on board with JWJ, apparently...
http://www.jwj.org/
"Stop Verizon Greed." Oh yeah, that's why Verizon wants to lower your wages..."greed"...not the necessities of working in a capitalist system and having to out-compete its competitors...we just need to punish those "greedy" capitalists and reward the "benevolent," "not-greedy" ones, and we'll finally get a fair shake!

This complete lack of development of class-consciousness is despite the fact that the CORI Reform campaign was "successful," by the modest standards of liberal reformism:
http://boston.com/community/blogs/crime_punishment/2010/05/cori_reform_-_too_little_too_l.html

Here are some lessons I took away from the whole CORI Reform debacle:
*It is very difficult, psychologically, to be the only person in a meeting raising Marxist opinions. Yet...
*Workers with liberal-reformist conceptions of a campaign or community association don't evolve in their political understanding unless you explicitly try to convey an historical materialist understanding of the struggle...and if the workers of the community association don't evolve, the association itself doesn't evolve. You're left with the same (perhaps slightly more successful) liberal-reformist community organization as before.

There is no shortage of liberal-reformist community organizations trying to do "nice things" in pretty much every major city (even in Springfield, MO, where I live). We don't need to create more of these organizations. So here's what I propose:

You gather whatever class-conscious comrades you can find where you live. You organize yourselves as an activist faction that will lend help to any progressive cause going on in your community, in exchange for being allowed to remain a recognized, separate faction within the community organization that gets a certain amount of "floor time" during each meeting/event to offer your critical take on the group's activities. No "stealth politics" or "entryism." Be absolutely up-front with the pre-existing community organizers and leaders about exactly what your politics are and exactly what you plan to do.

If they don't like the conditions that come with your offer of help, they can take it or leave it. If they refuse the offer, then you comment on the group's activities from the outside, making it clear that you are not simply trying to "disrupt unity" with your criticism, but that you are trying to cultivate class-consciousness and advance the cause of working-class revolution, and that you are willing to work together with others to the extent that your aims and theirs overlap, but that you will not sacrifice the ultimate goal of your group. Feel free at this point to point to one of the MANY historical examples of how revolutionary leftist groups have often lost sight of their ultimate goals through uncritical cooperation with reformist groups.

CornetJoyce
26th September 2011, 07:11
"We have to be able to distinguish between (for example) transferring control of a public housing complex to a private landlord ("privatization"), in pursuit of the corporate/neo-liberal agenda, and transferring control of that same public housing complex to the residents themselves ("cooperative conversion"), under pressure from grassroots popular mobilization.
If we refuse to make this distinction, either by celebrating privatization as a victory against the state or by vilifying cooperative conversion as if it were itself a type of privatization, we fall into one of two familiar traps..."

Much of the energy of community organizers and the New Wave cooperative movement from the 70s on was focused on cooperative conversions. But public housing tenants are always pressed for operating and maintenance costs. Where a a coop is in the path of gentrification, cooperators can find offers from developers hard to resist. Where the community declines farther, vacancies lead to foreclosure.

syndicat
26th September 2011, 22:36
What I notice about working in "community organizations" is that the temptation of reformism is even more acute than when working in a political party vying for power.


what "parties vying for power' are you talking about? the tiny left sects that exist today? that's a laugh.

there is always the potential of reformism in mass movements because people may not believe they have the power to go farther. but problems with "parties vying for power" are an absolute certainty. reformism at one end...the usual situation with parties...or becoming dictatorial, and the basis of a new bureaucratic class. in fact liberation can't happen except as it is conquered by the working class itself. and that means through mass social movement organizations.

blake 3:17
27th September 2011, 20:55
but just organizing "community associations" isn't a magic bullet

No one is advocating that.


In the "representative state," the state negotiates for us the terms of our surrender to the capitalist class in exchange for the capitalist class's patronage of our city/region/country (or else the capitalist class leaves with their capital seeking greener pastures). With directly-democratic organizations, we get to negotiate for ourselves the terms of our surrender to the capitalist class in exchange for the capitalist class's patronage! Hooray!

This is a very very real challenge. Which do we campaign for? I think it has to be issue by issue. There are very huge problems with participatory budgets. There are just as many with non-participatory budgets. I worked at one social service agency, which had been a worker's co-op, normalized itself & created a union, and the union became the primary means of back biting and screwing each other over.


We cannot lose sight of the goal of the economic and political rule of the working class.

Absolutely. But given that no strategy has achieved this, what do we do?

blake 3:17
27th September 2011, 21:00
Quote:
"What I notice about working in "community organizations" is that the temptation of reformism is even more acute than when working in a political party vying for power."

what "parties vying for power' are you talking about? the tiny left sects that exist today? that's a laugh.

In North America and Western Europe there are none against the centralized capitalist state.

Die Neue Zeit
28th September 2011, 02:41
No one is advocating that.

This is a very very real challenge. Which do we campaign for? I think it has to be issue by issue. There are very huge problems with participatory budgets. There are just as many with non-participatory budgets. I worked at one social service agency, which had been a worker's co-op, normalized itself & created a union, and the union became the primary means of back biting and screwing each other over.

Absolutely. But given that no strategy has achieved this, what do we do?

I think it's safe to say that politico-ideological independence for the working class is completely possible this side of revolution, but not so economic independence. I'm not saying you have coop fetishes at all, but those of the likes of Boffy's Blog promote the illusion of economic independence.

Comrade-Z
28th September 2011, 04:45
I think it's safe to say that politico-ideological independence for the working class is completely possible this side of revolution, but not so economic independence. I'm not saying you have coop fetishes at all, but those of the likes of Boffy's Blog promote the illusion of economic independence.

So would you be arguing that fighting for a political system where the working class does directly negotiate with the capitalist class regarding the terms of the working class's surrender would still be a positive thing?

I mean, I guess it would. It would blatantly expose class relations and put out in the open exactly what was going on. I don't think the capitalist class would stand for it. They'd try to engineer a coup...but could they put the genie back in the bottle? That action would make even more obvious what they were doing? I think if we had political direct democracy, and had to deal directly with the corporate threats that nowadays get discussed with our representatives behind closed doors, then revolution against capitalism itself would probably follow pretty quickly.

But as for what we do in the meantime, my suggestion was to form small groups of highly class-conscious Marxists to participate openly and critically in mainstream "progressive" movements...not in order to try to take them over and steer them, but with the provision that we would remain an organized faction within the coalition and that we would get a certain fraction of time at the podium to explain the shortcomings of the reformist activity, why it ultimately wouldn't work that well, and why it demonstrated that we really needed revolution.

Die Neue Zeit
28th September 2011, 04:47
So would you be arguing that fighting for a political system where the working class does directly negotiate with the capitalist class regarding the terms of the working class's surrender would still be a positive thing?

The Marxist minimum program for the political DOTP doesn't have any illusions about economic independence.

blake 3:17
12th October 2011, 08:34
But as for what we do in the meantime, my suggestion was to form small groups of highly class-conscious Marxists to participate openly and critically in mainstream "progressive" movements...not in order to try to take them over and steer them, but with the provision that we would remain an organized faction within the coalition and that we would get a certain fraction of time at the podium to explain the shortcomings of the reformist activity, why it ultimately wouldn't work that well, and why it demonstrated that we really needed revolution.

That's mostly what we do, one way or another. As DNZ pointed out we have no economic independence from the bourgeoisie. Given that a perfect socialist revolution isn't just around the corner what do we do? Part of this is building political/ideological independence from the state and market, part of it is defensive struggle to stay alive, and... ????

tir1944
12th October 2011, 20:11
Lol as soon as i hear the phrase "civil society" i know that what comes next is most likely gonna be some bullshit...