Is Greece about to default?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Yields on two-year Greek government bonds reached 46.84% recently. This is roughly comparable to yields on Argentine bonds in early December 2001 - only a month before the country defaulted on its debt.

Similar interest rates occurred this spring in Greece before the second bailout package was put together. The bailout saved Greece from defaulting back then, but the bailout is now falling apart while the fiscal situation in Greece continues to deteriorate. The risk of default in the near future has returned, but the will to stop it this time around is much weaker than in the past.

Better get another bailout commin' boys! :rolleyes:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/292287-is-greece-about-to-default

[Rusty Shackleford]

i JUST posted this in Greek Newswire thread but its more relevant here.

Gemany is setting up a program to cushion the impact of a Greek default on German banks.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-09/germany-said-to-prepare-plan-to-aid-country-s-banks-should-greece-default.html


Chancellor Angela Merkel (http://topics.bloomberg.com/angela-merkel/)’s government is preparing plans to shore up German banks in the event that Greece fails to meet the terms of its aid package and defaults, three coalition officials said.
The emergency plan involves measures to help banks and insurers that face a possible 50 percent loss on their Greek bonds if the next tranche of Greece’s bailout is withheld, said the people, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the deliberations are being held in private. The successor to the German government’s bank-rescue fund introduced in 2008 might be enrolled to help recapitalize the banks, one of the people said.
The existence of a “Plan B” underscores German concerns that Greece (http://topics.bloomberg.com/greece/)’s failure to stick to budget-cutting targets threatens European efforts to tame the debt crisis rattling the euro. German lawmakers stepped up their criticism of Greece this week, threatening to withhold aid unless it meets the terms of its austerity package, after an international mission to Athens (http://topics.bloomberg.com/athens/) suspended its report on the country’s progress.
Greece is “on a knife’s edge,” German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble (http://topics.bloomberg.com/wolfgang-schaeuble/) told lawmakers at a closed-door meeting in Berlin on Sept. 7, a report in parliament’s bulletin showed yesterday. If the government can’t meet the aid terms, “it’s up to Greece to figure out how to get financing without the euro zone’s help,” he later said in a speech to parliament.
Schaeuble travelled to a meeting of central bankers and finance ministers from the Group of Seven nations in Marseille, France (http://topics.bloomberg.com/france/), today as they face calls to boost growth amid increasing threats from Europe (http://topics.bloomberg.com/europe/)’s debt crisis and a slowing global recovery.

[Os Cangaceiros]

The economic crisis is obviously not a good thing, very bad in fact, but I would be lying if I were to say that I didn't get some slight satisfaction out of witnessing just how impotent political leaders are to actually solving the problems related to the economy. Both in the USA (w/ Obama and his "job speech") and in Europe, where they pour bailout after bailout into Greece, which lately has seemed like trying to bucket water out of a boat with a giant hole in it. The general malaise is really remarkable. I think that the age where leaders could hobble an economy along with spending and programs a la the New Deal has definitely passed.

Greece: do what Iceland did. Tell the IMF to go fuck themselves. The UK threatened Iceland, telling them that they'd be the "Cuba of the north". Didn't happen.

[piet11111]

Great so after plunging the greek population into misery they are going to default anyway.

Gee who would guess what kind of austerity measures will be forced on them then ?

[Proteus]

Great so after plunging the greek population into misery they are going to default anyway.

Gee who would guess what kind of austerity measures will be forced on them then ?

The austerity in Greece has been brutal enough. I think further measures against the working class could be seriously counter-productive. The straw that breaks the camels back could well be in further cuts somewhere. People can only take so much. Will NATO jets fly over Greece to get the loan sharks' money back?

[xub3rn00dlex]

So if this does indeed happen, what will happen to the people of greece? Will the rioting be worse than before? Is there anyway to show solidarity with the greeks other than spreading the news?

[Rusty Shackleford]

"Germany may be ready to surrender in fight to save Greece" (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-11/germany-readies-surrender-in-fight-to-save-greece-euro-credit.html)

[Delenda Carthago]

Greece: do what Iceland did. Tell the IMF to go fuck themselves. The UK threatened Iceland, telling them that they'd be the "Cuba of the north". Didn't happen.
IMF has SO nothing to do with what Greece is going through and that is so NOT the answer. So is the debt by itslef. There is an enormous dialog on the Greek revolutionary movement right now, debating what the fuck to do.

KKE dont bothers with the troika and the mnemonium, and says that its a fundamental capitalist problem. It declares that leaving euro without leaving capitalism would be catastrophic for the greek people. They also say that debt is irrelevant and that its not a debt crisis but a overproduction crisis.

SYRIZA asks for a eurobond. And is what PASOK is asking now too. So you can understand... They also propose that we reconsider debt but under no circumstances we leave EU or euro.

ANTARSYA says that we should deny the debt and they focuse all their energy on that. They promote the idea that we need a "progressive Left goverment"(sic) as a "middle stage for socialism"(sic) and they have ideolised pricks like Korea because he threw IMF out. They believe that all these can be achieved if we leave EU and euro too.


I agree with KKE 100% on this one.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Everyone knew from the beginning that Greece would default, rendering the initial bailout pointless, economically and politically, the latter because a massive shitstorm will now occur when either they try to go for a 2nd, bigger bailout, or they default.

I don't know if it has the potential to be 'revolutionary', but certainly shit will hit the fan when the inevitable happens.

I actually think that, for all their education and experience, Europe's central bankers are really rather clueless when it comes to economic analysis.

[Mikey]

Better get another bailout commin' boys! :rolleyes:
I agree, another bailout needs to be carried out.

Also, the "root issues" behind the economic problems we face need to be fixed. A stimulus package (alone) is not enough.

[PhoenixAsh]

Greece's default is a matter of time. Anybody who seriously believed that the austerity measures and emergency funds would be enough to repair the sympthoms of an inherrently flawed system has thoroughly subscribed to the capitalist notions that the system must be maintained at all cost because it will somehow magically repair itself.

Europe's politicians have no alternative but push and push for more and more measures and emergency funds. They can not let the union fail since their political and economic ambitions rely on them. So I am not claiming that were are hearing the deaththrows of capitalism....but its definately the sound of a chronic cough which will get worse and worse. And who knows...maybe it will be the beginning of the end of the EU as we know it.

I have no idea why the KKE and SYRIZA are saying that leaving the EU would be disasterous. Any arguments on that?

[Delenda Carthago]

Greece's default is a matter of time. Anybody who seriously believed that the austerity measures and emergency funds would be enough to repair the sympthoms of an inherrently flawed system has thoroughly subscribed to the capitalist notions that the system must be maintained at all cost because it will somehow magically repair itself.

Europe's politicians have no alternative but push and push for more and more measures and emergency funds. They can not let the union fail since their political and economic ambitions rely on them. So I am not claiming that were are hearing the deaththrows of capitalism....but its definately the sound of a chronic cough which will get worse and worse. And who knows...maybe it will be the beginning of the end of the EU as we know it.

I have no idea why the KKE and SYRIZA are saying that leaving the EU would be disasterous. Any arguments on that?

KKE of course is not against leaving EU. They just said that if we stay a capitalist country that just goes back to drachmas, it would be a disaster for the poor families, since the new drachma will be at least 50% down the euro, so inflation will explode. At the same time, those who hold bigger stacks, have already and will do more export their money in foreign banks and come back and... pretty much buy the whole country for peanuts. But in the overall, KKE is the only party in the parliament that insists on the anti EU road all the way. It was the only greek party that didnt vote for Maastricht.

Synaspismos is a euroleft capitalist party. There is very litle they can deliver as far as solutions.

[Delenda Carthago]

Statement of the Political Bureau of the CC on the capitalist economic crisis and the debt


http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2011/2011-09-06-pb-crisis/

[PhoenixAsh]

KKE of course is not against leaving EU. They just said that if we stay a capitalist country that just goes back to drachmas, it would be a disaster for the poor families, since the new drachma will be at least 50% down the euro, so inflation will explode. At the same time, those who hold bigger stacks, have already and will do more export their money in foreign banks and come back and... pretty much buy the whole country for peanuts. But in the overall, KKE is the only party in the parliament that insists on the anti EU road all the way. It was the only greek party that didnt vote for Maastricht.

Synaspismos is a euroleft capitalist party. There is very litle they can deliver as far as solutions.

Ah ok! hanx for clearing that up. I totally misunderstood what you said.

[Os Cangaceiros]

IMF has SO nothing to do with what Greece is going through

yeah it does

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20110908-711180.html

[Delenda Carthago]

yeah it does

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20110908-711180.html
No, it does not. Is UK under the IMF control? Is France under the IMF control? Is Germany? Is US? Then why all of them are taking measures like the ones that are being put against the greek working class?

You think IMF is the reason of the worldwide crisis? And if we didnt had that, we would be all perfect? The real reasons of the crisis go way beyond IMF and even debt so much that speaking about it and making it our main focus, is a win of the System.

[Jimmie Higgins]

KKE dont bothers with the troika and the mnemonium, and says that its a fundamental capitalist problem. It declares that leaving euro without leaving capitalism would be catastrophic for the greek people. They also say that debt is irrelevant and that its not a debt crisis but a overproduction crisis
....
I agree with KKE 100% on this one.Well this is a capitalist problem ultimately, I'm curious about the KKE's strategy and what they are doing and think the labor and popular movement in the streets should be doing to respond. Most of what I've read about Greece is pretty general and more about the crisis but I'd like to know more about what the different groups in the left are doing and advocating concretely at this point.

Links in English would also be greatly appreciated if anyone has some good info on this specific question.

[Delenda Carthago]

Well this is a capitalist problem ultimately, I'm curious about the KKE's strategy and what they are doing and think the labor and popular movement in the streets should be doing to respond. Most of what I've read about Greece is pretty general and more about the crisis but I'd like to know more about what the different groups in the left are doing and advocating concretely at this point.

Links in English would also be greatly appreciated if anyone has some good info on this specific question.
http://www.iccr.gr/site/en/issue1/the-international-economic-crisis-and-the-position-of-greece-the-theses-of-kke.html

check this

[Rusty Shackleford]

Asian indexes just got hit hard and Euro indexes are getting hit even harder. Euro Stoxx is down 4%

Greek gov announced more cuts and shit today too.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I'm fairly convinced that a Greek default COULD pre-cursor a double dip recession in Britain and possibly the US. Will be interesting to see what happens in Italy, Spain and Portugal. Does anybody have any more accurate info in those three's financial problems? I'm not sure how close they are to defaulting on their debt.

[PhoenixAsh]

If Greece defaults their banks will become insolvent over night. The international debts need to be wirtten of which will hit French and German banking systems....with near 200 billion euro's needed to be written off. It will probably affect Ireland and Portugal as well seing as these two also rely heavilly on bailout.

So yeah it could have the potential to start and economic domino effect.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I actually think that, for all their education and experience, Europe's central bankers are really rather clueless when it comes to economic analysis.

And this is exactly what i'm talking about:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/sep/12/vickers-banking-report-who-knows-2019

They may get away with a whitewash in boom-time, but kicking banking reform into the long grass will really look idiotic when Greece defaults and if we go back into recession, which is becoming increasingly likely.

[Die Neue Zeit]

KKE dont bothers with the troika and the mnemonium, and says that its a fundamental capitalist problem. It declares that leaving euro without leaving capitalism would be catastrophic for the greek people. They also say that debt is irrelevant and that its not a debt crisis but a overproduction crisis.


I have no idea why the KKE and SYRIZA are saying that leaving the EU would be disasterous. Any arguments on that?


KKE of course is not against leaving EU. They just said that if we stay a capitalist country that just goes back to drachmas, it would be a disaster for the poor families, since the new drachma will be at least 50% down the euro, so inflation will explode. At the same time, those who hold bigger stacks, have already and will do more export their money in foreign banks and come back and... pretty much buy the whole country for peanuts. But in the overall, KKE is the only party in the parliament that insists on the anti EU road all the way. It was the only greek party that didnt vote for Maastricht.

Synaspismos is a euroleft capitalist party. There is very litle they can deliver as far as solutions.

Why isn't the KKE, within the GUE-NGL (the European left parliamentary group it belongs to, along with Die Linke and the Front de Gauche), pressing for an European Central Bank monopoly on all financial services? :confused:

[Delenda Carthago]

Why isn't the KKE, within the GUE-NGL (the European left parliamentary group it belongs to, along with Die Linke and the Front de Gauche), pressing for an European Central Bank monopoly on all financial services? :confused:
I think it left in 2009 before the Madrit meeting.

[Delenda Carthago]

For the whole day, its forbiden to gather in Syntagma square. Whenever even 2 people stop in front of the parliament, riot cops are telling them to leave immidiatly. The State is preparing for the worst.

[Os Cangaceiros]

You think IMF is the reason of the worldwide crisis? And if we didnt had that, we would be all perfect?

Yeah dude. I've been reading this site since 2007, but I think that the IMF is the source of all evil in the world.

:rolleyes:

Get a grip. It's obvious that the IMF is involved in imposing harsh structural changes in the Greek economy, by their own admissions of these "necessities". I originally stated that people should repudiate these policies. I'm not exactly sure what you're so hung up on here...

[danyboy27]

the best thing greece should do is default, they should not have to pay for the debts previous governement and creditors put on their back without their consent in the first place.

the only ones that have something to loose in this whole scheme are the creditors. fuck em.

[FSL]

Yeah dude. I've been reading this site since 2007, but I think that the IMF is the source of all evil in the world.

:rolleyes:

Get a grip. It's obvious that the IMF is involved in imposing harsh structural changes in the Greek economy, by their own admissions of these "necessities". I originally stated that people should repudiate these policies. I'm not exactly sure what you're so hung up on here...
To "repudiate these policies" you need to do more than just get the IMF out, no?
Having the same policies enacted but on "greek initiative" isn't that much better, is it?




Greece: do what Iceland did. Tell the IMF to go fuck themselves. The UK threatened Iceland, telling them that they'd be the "Cuba of the north". Didn't happen.
This is where the problem is.
What makes you think that we -and by we I mean, we, communists- don't want Greece to become Cuba of the mediterranean sea?
Or Soviet Greece even?
Isn't that the general idea?


The debt is not the problem, it is merely one of the ways the problem presents itself. The main problem is that capitalist profits are way down and they need to go way up again. The main problem is that we're in a very deep capitalist crisis that could -and does- have repercussions all over the world.

There is no need to just tell our lenders to fuck off. Our government -a very bourgeois one- will end up saying that out of need. There has alread been a 20% haircut on bonds. Another 50% is coming right up and that's if they're lucky and we don't end up with an uncontrollable bankruptcy. Pretty much the whole banking sector will end up in state hands. All of these things (not paying debt, nationalizing banks) are things many capitalist states have done in the past and are doing yet again. It's just a way of coping with the crises, there is nothing "left" about it.

So no, just doing what Iceland did won't help us much. Our government will do this, kicking and screaming if it has to, but it will. In the same way that the very not revolutionary state of Iceland did. Just telling the IMF to "fuck off" won't help at all since it's the greek industrialists, bankers and shipping magnates that wanted it here in the first place. They are the ones who *need* these policies. It's their profits that need to rise and the only way to do that is by making labor cheaper. There are no magic ways to deal with our problems that don't deal directly with that.




Why isn't the KKE, within the GUE-NGL (the European left parliamentary group it belongs to, along with Die Linke and the Front de Gauche), pressing for an European Central Bank monopoly on all financial services? :confused:
First of all, the european parliamentary system is a sham. You have to group with someone. There is nothing in common between the greek communist party and left parties like Die Linke. That's why the greek communist party is not a part of the "European Left party".

Now, what good would that do again?
Would it replace banks and just do their business as usual?
Or it would provide businessmen with cheap credit by printing euros?
How is that so different from the "keynesian" policies the Obama government tried to apply? How did they help the american workers?

The European Central Bank is not an independent, classless organization.
It's a tool in the hands of the European Union.
Were it to act in the manner you're describing we'd have depreciation of capital as the real values would drop and inflation would eat away the workers income. It's not even a problem-free way of managing the capitalist crisis (because it really isn't an attempt to do much else). What happens when international investors lose trust in euro because the ECB just "buys growth"? Nothing good.



You shouldn't worry too much about how capitalists manage their economy. There is no way you can do that without the burden dropping on the workers.
So, instead of trying to help Merkel, Sarkozy and co by making "suggestions", why not help ourselves by forgetting all the delusions we might have about the possicility of a better capitalism and start putting socialism and a planned economy on the agenda?

To add on that; many people, many among them "leftists" at least here in Greece, spoke of issuing a "eurobond" as a way out of our crisis.
For those who don't know what that would be, that is having all the eurozone countries go out in the market and borrow money together. That would "immediately" fix Greece since Greece is so much smaller than Germany and Germany's economy is strong and allows it to borrow cheaply.

This originally appeared as a radical proposal by Syriza (our Die Linke) and other self-described left-wing economists. It has since then been adopted by New Democracy, the greek conservative party and by many in the Europeam Union. Merkel and Sarkozy had a discussion on when and how it could be implemented.

Are we to seriously believe that they're planning and asking for something that will help the workers? No. They're just trying to find a solution to their problems. Nothing will come out of that for us.
As a matter of fact not much would come out of that for them since rating agencies have warned that with the current situation, this Eurobond would have a "junk" rating, much like Greece's.



There is no point in trying to find ways to "cure" the capitalist economy
A) because so many politicians and economists are already on the job and
B) because it's downright impossible.

[PhoenixAsh]

For Greece to stay in the EU and EURO is not going to help them much in overthrowing capitalism. In fact it requires them to perpetuate the system since its pretty much a prerequisite for being part of those two.

The KKE position is very understandable though. The only reason for them to stay in the EU/EURO is because the alternative is worse from the perspective of the Greek workers.

The natural reaction of the Greek government as representatives of the capitalist system when they default will be to enforce tighter rule, more austerity measures and less free market capitalism and march Greece right into Bonapartism. Basically because it is forced to do so by the circumstances.

When Greece defaults the banks, as I said, will immediately become unsolvent. This forces the government to nationalise the banks, as FSL said, and forbid any withdrawls from the bank and will instate martial law. They will be forced out of the Euro. Which requires a new currency which will pretty much be worthless....forcing down wages and creating a huge spending gap. Which will further decrease internal demand...and lead to mass unemployment (short simplified version). At the same time this will force the government to relax workers protection laws. This will probably have effects over decades.

All this...in a capitalist system. So under the current situation...capitalism is the main problem. Not the Euro or the EU or IMF...which all play a part in this drama but are not the main forces at play here...just expressions of those forces.

[Os Cangaceiros]

To "repudiate these policies" you need to do more than just get the IMF out, no?
Having the same policies enacted but on "greek initiative" isn't that much better, is it?

No, but sometimes one must take immediate steps to halt rollbacks, even if those immediate steps do not contribute to the immediate socialist revolution. Even if the KKE took over Greece, nationalized everything and declared a worker's revolution, that wouldn't destroy capitalism now would it? I have stated before on this site that I don't view localized despotism replacing internationalized despotism as a positive development, so no, I don't think throwing out the IMF/EU and various associated criminal enterprises is the end-all-and-be-all of the anti-capitalist struggle in Greece, however repudiating the claims and actions taken by these and other organizations would be a very good start.


This is where the problem is.
What makes you think that we -and by we I mean, we, communists- don't want Greece to become Cuba of the mediterranean sea?
Or Soviet Greece even?
Isn't that the general idea?

In fact when addressing this topic, Olafur Grimmson said that if they had obeyed the financial and political institutions which demanded their acquiescence, they would've become the Haiti of the North. :rolleyes:

But yeah, my example of the pejorative use of "Cuba of the North" by capitalist powers really represents my true feelings towards the actual nation-state of Cuba. Totally. [/sarcasm]

[FSL]

For Greece to stay in the EU and EURO is not going to help them much in overthrowing capitalism. In fact it requires them to perpetuate the system since its pretty much a prerequisite for being part of those two.

You got most of what is going on right but, just to clarify this, no one is saying "we should stick with the EU and the Euro".

What we are saying is that both staying and leaving, with capitalism, are equally bad.
In both cases there will be severe austerity measures.
In both cases people should look to get rid of capitalism itself and not this or that way of running it.

So we don't disagree with people who say "Greece shouldn't pay its lenders" on that per se.
We disagree on whether doing it while having a capitalist state and economy would mean anything. It wouldn't. The weak drachma would just replace all the salary cuts. The result however, in terms of quality of life, would be just as horrible.

[FSL]

But yeah, my example of the pejorative use of "Cuba of the North" by capitalist powers really represents my true feelings towards the actual nation-state of Cuba. Totally. [/sarcasm]
Your feelings towards Cuba are not the point here.

The point is that the capitalist state of Iceland defended its own interests (as in its capitalists' interests) against the UK.
It didn't become Cuba. It didn't even come close.
We aren't even talking about reforms here. We are talking about some plain old quarrel among capitalists on who gets to pay the bill during a crisis.



No, but sometimes one must take immediate steps to halt rollbacks
And again, why are you assuming rollbacks will stop?
Why did they ever begin then in other countries that never had the IMF visit them?
Why were salaries stagnant for over a decade in Germany?

The only thing that matters now is being competitive in profitability.
That's what the capitalists are after.
If Greece doesn't do as they please, they'll all just cross the borders to Bulgaria or ship off their business in China. They'll open malls in Russia and strip clubs in the Czech Republic.


In fact, the surest way to slow down or even repell some rollbacks is to convince as many workers as you can that they don't need their bosses.
I've seen it happen. There is a massacre out there in this past year as all salaries are getting slashed.
Is anyone enjoying it? No.
Is everyone arming themselves with rifles just to keep their wage intact? No again.
If they have no alternative, they'll accept anything. "It's ok my wage is cut by half, at least I'm not unemployed", that's what people will say.

Only unions that do classify capital as an enemy have managed to make some gains, defending collective labor agreements, taking back lay offs and so on.
People want, need even, another way, a clear strategy.
They won't put their job on the line otherwise.



I don't view localized despotism replacing internationalized despotism
Again, what you consider "despotism" is not the point here.
Especially since to you a communist revolution would seem despotic but some capitalist government in Iceland apparently looks after its people who all enjoy the greatest of freedoms.


Sure you're not in the wrong place?

[Rusty Shackleford]

Greece Default Risk Jumps to 98% (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-12/greece-s-risk-of-default-increases-to-98-as-european-debt-crisis-deepens.html)

[Os Cangaceiros]

The point is that the capitalist state of Iceland defended its own interests (as in its capitalists' interests) against the UK.
It didn't become Cuba. It didn't even come close.
We aren't even talking about reforms here. We are talking about some plain old quarrel among capitalists on who gets to pay the bill during a crisis.

I never said any different. The nation-state of Iceland is a capitalist state, I would've thought this didn't even need stating.


And again, why are you assuming rollbacks will stop?

The rollbacks will not stop. The working class is in a difficult spot during this crisis, like all crises, because 1) the downturn means that labor is in less demand generally-speaking, and 2) massive lay-offs mean that the labor pool is large. These two factors add up to an extremely difficult spot for the working class, and it's an uphill battle to maintain even the modest crumbs they've accumulated in many cases. That has no bearing on my position that this shouldn't be attempted both against international institutions (IMF et al) and national institutions (ie parties, national governments etc)


Why did they ever begin then in other countries that never had the IMF visit them?

sigh...I guess it has to be stated again by me. I DON'T VIEW THE IMF AS THE CAUSE OF GREECE'S PROBLEMS. However, they are a very active force in the current crisis, this needs to be acknowledged and addressed. Saying that the IMF has absolutely no culpability in what's happening, that it's merely some sort of impersonal mechanism of capital's crisis of overproduction/overaccumulation would also presumably mean that the IMF has had absolutely nothing to do with the export-capital schemes in much of the "global south", in which infrastructure like rail and docks are built to loot nations at the expense of the wholesale ransacking of public institutions like education and welfare. It's nonsense. Maybe it's true that the metasystem of capitalism is ultimately to blame, but the IMF has a LOT to do with the immediate effects wrought by the crisis that has plagued the "global south" for decades, and is now hitting Europe.


If Greece doesn't do as they please, they'll all just cross the borders to Bulgaria or ship off their business in China. They'll open malls in Russia and strip clubs in the Czech Republic.

I am glad that the KKE has adopted such a nice internationalist perspective. "People of Europe Rise Up!" Gee, what if the capitalists don't like what "the people" are doing? Won't they just move their business out of Europe? :rolleyes:


In fact, the surest way to slow down or even repell some rollbacks is to convince as many workers as you can that they don't need their bosses.
I've seen it happen. There is a massacre out there in this past year as all salaries are getting slashed.
Is anyone enjoying it? No.
Is everyone arming themselves with rifles just to keep their wage intact? No again.
If they have no alternative, they'll accept anything. "It's ok my wage is cut by half, at least I'm not unemployed", that's what people will say.

I'm not even sure how this tangent is relevant, but thanks anyway.


Only unions that do classify capital as an enemy have managed to make some gains, defending collective labor agreements, taking back lay offs and so on.

I would agree that a union's militant membership is key in the fight against rollbacks. I'm not exactly sure what, if anything, you're arguing against...?


Again, what you consider "despotism" is not the point here.

It certainly is, in the context of this discussion. The rule of capital is despotism. You seem to think that I think that the rule of capital in a localized sense, i.e. the mayor of Reykjavik laying off scores of people and slashing public utilities in Reykjavik in order to slash costs is awesome, and the evil, big bad IMF is the only problem. That's a bunch of bullshit and you know it.


Especially since to you a communist revolution would seem despotic but some capitalist government in Iceland apparently looks after its people who all enjoy the greatest of freedoms.

Sure I do. All Hail Iceland, Vanguard of Worker's Revolution! :thumbup1:


Sure you're not in the wrong place?

Shut your face, you big mean stupid head.

[FSL]

I never said any different. The nation-state of Iceland is a capitalist state, I would've thought this didn't even need stating.
At the beginning you did seem a bit eager to point to a capitalist state as an example to follow. Odd.




That has no bearing on my position that this shouldn't be attempted both against international institutions (IMF et al) and national institutions (ie parties, national governments etc)
So you are completely abandoning the Iceland as an example to follow thing?
As you know they were pretty much all together there, one big happy nation.



Maybe it's true that the metasystem of capitalism is ultimately to blame, but the IMF has a LOT to do with the immediate effects wrought by the crisis that has plagued the "global south" for decades, and is now hitting Europe.
The IMF comes every three months or so to make sure we keep in line.
Its our government, our business magnates, our politicians and parties that push the agenda and apply all the measures.

But I'm sure you know better.




I am glad that the KKE has adopted such a nice internationalist perspective. "People of Europe Rise Up!" Gee, what if the capitalists don't like what "the people" are doing? Won't they just move their business out of Europe? :rolleyes:
No.
They will have been appropriated.
That's kinda the point of "rising up".




I'm not even sure how this tangent is relevant, but thanks anyway.

I would agree that a union's militant membership is key in the fight against rollbacks. I'm not exactly sure what, if anything, you're arguing against...?
I'm arguing against the idea that fighting with nothing but defence in mind will yield any results. I'm arguing against this: "No, but sometimes one must take immediate steps to halt rollbacks, even if those immediate steps do not contribute to the immediate socialist revolution."

Any steps to halt rollbacks will contribute to building socialist conscience.
In fact I'm saying I'm finding it impossible to have the slightest success in stopping any cuts without socialist conscience gaining momentum. Immediate relief and a long term revolutionary strategy are two parts of one thing.
There is no "kick out the IMF, think of the rest later". Most people will choose IMF over god-knows-what, no matter how much they despise it.




You seem to think that I think that the rule of capital in a localized sense, i.e. the mayor of Reykjavik laying off scores of people and slashing public utilities in Reykjavik in order to slash costs is awesome, and the evil, big bad IMF is the only problem.
Ok, I'll take that as definite yes on the "So you are completely abandoning the Iceland as an example to follow thing?" i said earlier.

Don't you worry, no one here is expressing their gratitude to the IMF or the European Comission or the European Central Bank.
But also no one* is making the mistake you did at the beginning by putting all the blame on them and just routing for Iceland (or Greece in this case), as if good news for Iceland or Greece must always be good news for the workers in these countries.


*Ok, some people are. Far-rights and some leftists.
But this whole "we're occupied, imf is imposing things upon our poor country" has been kept to a bare minimum I'd like to think.

[Os Cangaceiros]

At the beginning you did seem a bit eager to point to a capitalist state as an example to follow. Odd.

My original point was not about Iceland the capitalist state, but the people of Iceland voting on March 6th 2010 by over 93% to reject the "Icesave" agreement, something that was generally supported by the left (for example, see here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1643073&postcount=1) and here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1686908&postcount=1)). I think one can support that iniative and support the deeper intensification of conflict without supporting the capitalist government of Iceland, no? (A referendum that the finance minister and the prime minister publicly boycotted, as well as the coalition party.)


The IMF comes every three months or so to make sure we keep in line.
Its our government, our business magnates, our politicians and parties that push the agenda and apply all the measures.

But I'm sure you know better.

If by me saying "yeah, those guys suck too and should be opposed", then yeah, I do know better.


No.
They will have been appropriated.
That's kinda the point of "rising up".

OK, so when "the people" of Europe "rise up", I guess it'll all be in vain cuz then the capitalists will just move their operations out to Bangladesh and China and the Phillipines and other countries. After all, that's the attitude you expressed in a previous post, i.e. "if Greece doesn't do what they please", then they'll simply just outsource the problem.


I'm arguing against the idea that fighting with nothing but defence in mind will yield any results. I'm arguing against this: "No, but sometimes one must take immediate steps to halt rollbacks, even if those immediate steps do not contribute to the immediate socialist revolution."

Sorry, but the social revolution is not just around the corner. Like I said before, labor's position is weak, and made weaker by foreign labor markets and the fact that the demand for what capitalists make is currently depressed. These facts make capital's hand stronger than you would expect, and the assault will and continue to be relentless against what little gains have been made. My opinion is that these gains need to be protected first and foremost, and built upon when possible.


Any steps to halt rollbacks will contribute to building socialist conscience.
In fact I'm saying I'm finding it impossible to have the slightest success in stopping any cuts without socialist conscience gaining momentum. Immediate relief and a long term revolutionary strategy are two parts of one thing.

Very long term revolutionary strategy...

[A Marxist Historian]

IMF has SO nothing to do with what Greece is going through and that is so NOT the answer. So is the debt by itslef. There is an enormous dialog on the Greek revolutionary movement right now, debating what the fuck to do.

KKE dont bothers with the troika and the mnemonium, and says that its a fundamental capitalist problem. It declares that leaving euro without leaving capitalism would be catastrophic for the greek people. They also say that debt is irrelevant and that its not a debt crisis but a overproduction crisis.

SYRIZA asks for a eurobond. And is what PASOK is asking now too. So you can understand... They also propose that we reconsider debt but under no circumstances we leave EU or euro.

ANTARSYA says that we should deny the debt and they focuse all their energy on that. They promote the idea that we need a "progressive Left goverment"(sic) as a "middle stage for socialism"(sic) and they have ideolised pricks like Korea because he threw IMF out. They believe that all these can be achieved if we leave EU and euro too.


I agree with KKE 100% on this one.

Cancelling the debt is the beginning of wisdom, one pont for ANTARSYA ... which they lose with fantasies like a "progressive left government."

This is not Argentina 10 years ago, Greek debt cancellation really could topple the whole capitalist house of cards. But that is the bankers' problem, not the workers.

After cancelling the debt, the workers need to seize power and take control over the state and set about spreading the revolution to the rest of Europe and then the world.

Otherwise, Greece could indeed end up like North Korea, an international pariah with people starving to death, and a revolutionary regime either collapsing or going the North Korean route.

But one way or another, the debt has to be cancelled, until it is the Greek people are simply going to be slaves to the bankers. Any party, like KKE it seems, that does not put that front and center is at best irrelevant.

-M.H.-

[Die Neue Zeit]

I think it left in 2009 before the Madrit meeting.

Not as far as I know:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_United_Left–Nordic_Green_Left

If it did, it betrays their Greek nationalism, because national solutions don't work these days.

[Die Neue Zeit]

First of all, the european parliamentary system is a sham. You have to group with someone. There is nothing in common between the greek communist party and left parties like Die Linke. That's why the greek communist party is not a part of the "European Left party".

Go ask Charalampos Angourakis and Giorgos Toussas what they've been up to in the European Parliament, then.


Now, what good would that do again?
Would it replace banks and just do their business as usual?
Or it would provide businessmen with cheap credit by printing euros?
How is that so different from the "keynesian" policies the Obama government tried to apply? How did they help the american workers?

The Obama government bailed out the private sector. I'm not suggesting a temporary "nationalization," either. I'm suggesting what Marx and Engels called "centralization of credit in the hands of the State":

http://www.revleft.com/vb/lefts-crisis-panitch-t159985/index.html


The European Central Bank is not an independent, classless organization.
It's a tool in the hands of the European Union.
Were it to act in the manner you're describing we'd have depreciation of capital as the real values would drop and inflation would eat away the workers income. It's not even a problem-free way of managing the capitalist crisis (because it really isn't an attempt to do much else). What happens when international investors lose trust in euro because the ECB just "buys growth"? Nothing good.

Just as Marx and Engels called for a unified German republic, it would be prudent for the left to call for a more unified EU, and part of that structure would be an ECB financial monopoly.


To add on that; many people, many among them "leftists" at least here in Greece, spoke of issuing a "eurobond" as a way out of our crisis.
For those who don't know what that would be, that is having all the eurozone countries go out in the market and borrow money together. That would "immediately" fix Greece since Greece is so much smaller than Germany and Germany's economy is strong and allows it to borrow cheaply.

This originally appeared as a radical proposal by Syriza (our Die Linke) and other self-described left-wing economists. It has since then been adopted by New Democracy, the greek conservative party and by many in the Europeam Union. Merkel and Sarkozy had a discussion on when and how it could be implemented.

Yeah, and Die Linke itself suggested it too. I'm suggesting to go further, especially with regards to nationalist dead ends.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Just as Marx and Engels called for a unified German republic, it would be prudent for the left to call for a more unified EU, and part of that structure would be an ECB financial monopoly.I don't know if this is the best analogy: a unified German Republic might be more progressive for the working class than a bunch of semi-feudal nation states, but the question over stronger EU or just an Economic-Zone, is more a question of how capitalists organize themselves.

That being said, I am still trying to learn about the European situation, so I don't have a strong opinion on which option would be better for the working class.

[Die Neue Zeit]

To be really technical, I'm actually for the immediate replacement of the EU by a Europe-wide superstate, usually derided as an "EUSSR" by right-wing Euroskeptics:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/european-economic-transition-t129546/index.html (on this board)
http://reality.gn.apc.org/econ/Berlinpaper.pdf (PDF)

It should also combine unitarism with national "autonomy," as opposed to Lenin's still-bourgeois federalism; Stalin was right on the RSFSR vs. USSR question:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=2GO7AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA160&dq=stalin+rsfsr+debate+lenin&hl=en&ei=a-5uTvGwCsjWiAKhqYySBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=stalin%20rsfsr%20debate%20lenin&f=false
http://books.google.ca/books?id=pYiwh0s9kIoC&pg=PA202&dq=stalin+rsfsr+debate+lenin&hl=en&ei=a-5uTvGwCsjWiAKhqYySBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=stalin%20rsfsr%20debate%20lenin&f=false
http://www.revleft.com/vb/nationalities-soviet-union-t61251/index.html

[FSL]

OK, so when "the people" of Europe "rise up", I guess it'll all be in vain cuz then the capitalists will just move their operations out to Bangladesh and China and the Phillipines and other countries. After all, that's the attitude you expressed in a previous post, i.e. "if Greece doesn't do what they please", then they'll simply just outsource the problem.
If we have capitalism and Greece doesn't do as they please.
If we were to make "small gains" like the ones you're proposing, then they'll just move their business elsewhere. Since, ya know, we'd still be allowing them to have business.
But if people did rise up, capitalists would be dirtpoor. Get the point now? They'd have no business to move anywhere. As long as we're in capitalism however, we're in their mercy.
The only way to make small gains is a strong movement that does have socialism at its core. A movement that capitalists see as a future (and present) threat rather than an answer to momentary inconvenience. They won't be backing down otherwise.



Sorry, but the social revolution is not just around the corner. Like I said before, labor's position is weak, and made weaker by foreign labor markets and the fact that the demand for what capitalists make is currently depressed. These facts make capital's hand stronger than you would expect, and the assault will and continue to be relentless against what little gains have been made. My opinion is that these gains need to be protected first and foremost, and built upon when possible.

Very long term revolutionary strategy...
Yes, the revolution is not around the corner so let's not even speak about it and hope to get everyone on the streets, fists in the air, for "what little gains" are possible.

That will bring the revolution so much closer.

[FSL]

Go ask Charalampos Angourakis and Giorgos Toussas what they've been up to in the European Parliament, then.
I'm guessing they've been up to the same thing the MPs in the greek pariament have been up to.





The Obama government bailed out the private sector. I'm not suggesting a temporary "nationalization," either. I'm suggesting what Marx and Engels called "centralization of credit in the hands of the State":

http://www.revleft.com/vb/lefts-crisis-panitch-t159985/index.html
In the hands of the workers' state, right after the bourgeois state had been crashed by a revolution.
Or is that some detail not worth mentioning?

Of course Obama bailed out the private sector. And there were bank nationalizations in many other countries as well. Did that help? No. Because a capitalist state and a capitalist institution will be pretty focused on bailing out the private sector and screwing workers over. They won't be "nice" to us. And the EU and ECB are pretty capitalist. They have their own class to worry about.




Just as Marx and Engels called for a unified German republic, it would be prudent for the left to call for a more unified EU, and part of that structure would be an ECB financial monopoly.

Yeah, and Die Linke itself suggested it too. I'm suggesting to go further, especially with regards to nationalist dead ends.
No, it would be prudent for the left to call for each country to get the hell out of this rathole.

And how is it a nice thing for Die Linke and the other left parties that their proposals can so easily be hijacked from bourgeois parties?
Hmmm, maybe they weren't so radical to begin with? Maybe they're just a different, not better or worse, way that capitalists can deal with the crisis?
So, if Merkel, Sarkozy and Berlusconi had little luck with deflationary policies they might give that a thought?

I for one wouldn't be pleased to know that the thing I thought would lead to a better life for the people, is now among Merkel's considerations.
I'd think one of us is wrong.

[vyborg]

Greece defaulted years ago. The reason why they decided to delay the default is to avoid bank run...

[RadioRaheem84]

For the whole day, its forbiden to gather in Syntagma square. Whenever even 2 people stop in front of the parliament, riot cops are telling them to leave immidiatly. The State is preparing for the worst.

:ohmy: What!

Care to elaborate????

[RadioRaheem84]

So if someone could bring me up to speed, when is Greece planning to default?

[FSL]

So if someone could bring me up to speed, when is Greece planning to default?

There is no "plan", it just seems inevitable that it will happen.
Most analysts think bankruptcy in December is the most likely scenario, right after our next evaluation.



It might happen before that, it might happen later on, but not happening at all does seem impossible .

[Die Neue Zeit]

In the hands of the workers' state, right after the bourgeois state had been crashed by a revolution.
Or is that some detail not worth mentioning?

It is, yet isn't:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/03/24.htm


The whole of Germany shall be declared a single and indivisible republic.

[...]

A state bank, whose paper issues are legal tender, shall replace all private banks.

This was a demand aimed at the bourgeois state for bourgeois implementation.

[PhoenixAsh]

The Dutch ministry of finance is now operating under the assumption the Greek Default will be inevitable and is preparing for that event with the Dutch National Bank and the German government and Bundes Bank.

The Dutch finaince ministry is now arguing that Greece will need to be bankrupt in an orderly fashion...(:mellow:)...so that a panic will be avoided in the global financial sector.

In the event of a default 50% of all outstanding loans and debst will have to be written off....something which can not be handled by the emergency funds which have been set up earlier.

So that means there will be austerity measures again...and lay offs in companies whoch will probably want to absorb the losses.

[Veovis]

This might sound evil, because there's bound to be suffering, but is anyone else excited to see how the shit's gonna fly? I'd love to see a radical socialist Greece come out of this.

[Rusty Shackleford]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903532804576568802768076060.html

[Veovis]

Got a link to something similar that doesn't suck as bad as the WSJ? Just thinking about subscribing to that rag to read the rest of the article makes me want to rub purel into my eyeballs.

[FSL]

It is, yet isn't:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/03/24.htm



This was a demand aimed at the bourgeois state for bourgeois implementation.
This seems more like an attempt at what the bolshevicks tried to do later in 1905 by pursuing a "democratic dictatorship of the workers and peasantry".
There was no bourgeois state, there barely was a state in the making at the time. At no point does this extract suggest that political authority is left to the exploiters:


It is to the interest of the German proletariat, the petty bourgeoisie and the small peasants to support these demands with all possible energy. Only by the realisation of these demands will the millions in Germany, who have hitherto been exploited by a handful of persons and whom the exploiters would like to keep in further subjection, win the rights and attain to that power to which they are entitled as the producers of all wealth



In a thing called "manifesto of the communist party" written the same year, 1848, the saying goes something like this:


The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.

Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production.

These measures will, of course, be different in different countries.

Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.

...
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm

Germany at that time wasn't one of the most advanced countries. They were England, France, probably Belgium. Germany became an international leader in industry in the late 19th century, along with the "second industrial revolution" and at in 1848 it was still just a collection of semi-feudal states.
The aims are a bit more timid than in the communist manifesto (curtailing the right to inheritance instead of abolishing it for example) but that is explained by its relative backwardness compared to, say, England.

[PhoenixAsh]

France is currently arguing that they will do whatever it takes to save Greece from default. This move is not some altruistic action on the part of France. In fact French companies and banks will have to write off massively if Greece defaults and since their banking system is already in serious trouble over subprime loans the French government can not afford to lose the biollions that will evaporate when Greece defaults.

For three years we have been in a financial crisis. Billions of dollars of emergency funds have been set up, billions of dollars in grants have been given to the banking and financial world and billions of dollars in austerity measures have been pushed on the citizens of many countries. And nothing has changed at all.

Politicians have tried, and tried, and tried again to change the course of the crisis...to avert the crisis. But nothing has bee done to recognize, let alone repair the structural faults of the system. They have pushed and will keep pushing for measures which will supposedly save us from the complete and utter disaster they paint if the measures are not taken. And nothing will work unless they recognize that it is ultimately the system that is at fault.

If there is one thing this crisis shows it is the failure of the financial system and capitalism...and the complete and utter inability to manage the system. It is in my opinion time to wake up and smell the freaking coffee.

[Die Neue Zeit]

This seems more like an attempt at what the bolshevicks tried to do later in 1905 by pursuing a "democratic dictatorship of the workers and peasantry".
There was no bourgeois state, there barely was a state in the making at the time. At no point does this extract suggest that political authority is left to the exploiters [...] Germany at that time wasn't one of the most advanced countries.

Well, in the Communist Manifesto, they wrote, "In Germany, they fight with the bourgeoisie whenever it acts in a revolutionary way, against the absolute monarchy, the feudal squirearchy, and the petty bourgeoisie. But they never cease, for a single instant, to instill into the working class the clearest possible recognition of the hostile antagonism between bourgeoisie and proletariat [...] The Communists turn their attention chiefly to Germany, because that country is on the eve of a bourgeois revolution that is bound to be carried out under more advanced conditions of European civilisation and with a much more developed proletariat than that of England was in the seventeenth, and France in the eighteenth century, and because the bourgeois revolution in Germany will be but the prelude to an immediately following proletarian revolution."

The "indivisible republic" was the watchword of bourgeois liberals in Germany.

Contemporarily, nationalistic solutions like leaving the EU won't work, and settling for the existing arrangement of financial services isn't good, either.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

If we have capitalism and Greece doesn't do as they please.
If we were to make "small gains" like the ones you're proposing, then they'll just move their business elsewhere. Since, ya know, we'd still be allowing them to have business.
But if people did rise up, capitalists would be dirtpoor. Get the point now? They'd have no business to move anywhere. As long as we're in capitalism however, we're in their mercy.
The only way to make small gains is a strong movement that does have socialism at its core. A movement that capitalists see as a future (and present) threat rather than an answer to momentary inconvenience. They won't be backing down otherwise.



Yes, the revolution is not around the corner so let's not even speak about it and hope to get everyone on the streets, fists in the air, for "what little gains" are possible.

That will bring the revolution so much closer.

I think what Explosive Situation is aiming at is what is the "transitional program"? Obviously there is no solution to the crisis within the context of capitalism but how do we get from here to there? What demands are raised that can point to "small gains"?

[FSL]

"In Germany, they fight with the bourgeoisie whenever it acts in a revolutionary way, against the absolute monarchy, the feudal squirearchy, and the petty bourgeoisie

Contemporarily, nationalistic solutions like leaving the EU won't work, and settling for the existing arrangement of financial services isn't good, either.
There is no absolute monarchy around here nowadays so I see no reason why I should be fighting with the bourgeoisie.


Why leaving the EU "won't work"?
That's like saying that a revolution in Russia should wait for all the entente countries to have revolutions themselves.
Describing it as "nationalistic" is nothing more than a slander. No one is talking about a UKIP type government. It seems pointless to just stay in the EU and wait for... what? The communist party in Cyprus has the presidency. What options are there for them? Not one, they just push the same austerity measures everyone else does.
At least they have a "justification" of sorts that the country is divided and that its unification is the primary political goal. If it wasn't for that, what would they be but another government bringing cuts for its people? You cant seriously be suggesting that this is the way to go forward?

Leaving the EU with a workers' state that would deny paying the debt and socialize capital would be a huge blow to capitalism in very real terms and bring a major boost to the communist movement elsewhere. Staying in the EU and enacting the same laws as everyone else while claiming you're better because you support an ECB monopoly on financial services doesn't really sound communist. Or good in any way. Not for communism, not for the people.



I think what Explosive Situation is aiming at is what is the "transitional program"? Obviously there is no solution to the crisis within the context of capitalism but how do we get from here to there? What demands are raised that can point to "small gains"?
Correct me if I'm wrong but Iceland isn't closer to socialism, is it?
Argentina isn't closer to socialism.
Russia definitely isn't closer to socialism.


All these countries have had some kind of default quite recently. If in none of these cases defaulting proved to be something that gets you a step closer to socialism, why do so many people think of it as some sort of a transitional demand? And one that "works"?


I think we need to separate, in our minds first of all, the things capitalists might want to do because the situation calls for it and the things we should want them (as in forcing them) to do. In other words, we must stop having "demands" that the government can happily accept.
If a whole movement is built around the idea of kicking the imf out and defaulting, what happens when these things do happen out of necessity or because the eurosceptics in the bourgeoisie got the upper hand? The whole movement is lost. It's now a part of the establishment. People return to their homes having done not one step forward. People were killed in clashes in Argentina right after the default. They searched in trash for things to sell or use, others killed themselves. Everything was ripe for a socialist revolution of the masses except one thing; the masses had no intention of doing one.
It's like limiting yourself to only asking for this or that minor reform "to get things done". Then you built a whole movement around them. Then a guy like Obama comes and smiles and says "I'll do that for you, no worries!". And then the whole movement degenerates because your demands were never any kind of danger to the rulling class and you find out that having a black person in the office really isn't much help.


There isn't something between capitalism and socialism. Just a revolutionary overthrow of the first. And this will come by conscious workers, at least a great number of them who will pull others with them. How do you get more workers to become conscious? Sure, you don't tire their minds describing communism all day long. You work with them on things that matter now while also talking about communism.
Tons of things can happen today that are a real blow to the capitalists. From protecting collective labor agreements to preventing evictions to guaranteeing free healthcare to actively opposing taxes. For example there is a call here not to pay the new taxes voted this year, with many unions having adopted it and organizing their membership on said cause, gathering the bills to return them.

For an average working family these taxes would be at least 400 euros, for any self-employed another 300 euros on top of that. That's the monthly minimum wage and it's money many families can't spare right now. You can gather people around you on something like that because they do *need* that. They have no other option many of them, others are just sick of paying and then paying some more. The government could never adopt such an approach as it could with a default because this shows disrespect -to put it mildly- against the 'regime' itself. This movement can't be made part of the establishment. And while you're doing this you should explain to people that this is not us becoming "thieves", this is just us refusing to pay what isn't our fault, refusing to pay for loans that went to subsidy investments and to finance tax cuts for businesses. Making them realize that this is a "battle" in a "war" where we'll either win or lose.
Kinda like the whole poll tax thing under Thatcher I guess but with a communist reasoning.


Obviously there are no magical ways to convince everyone and turn them to a full-blown commie from one day to the next.
But any tactic can only be right if it's part of a long term revolutionary strategy.
Just messing around with a bunch of things that mean nothing because we think it's easier to get people close to us if we only tell them half the truth, this will end up nowhere. If we tell people what we think they want to hear instead of what they should be hearing, we aren't helping them and we're hurting ourselves.
It won't bring them closer to communism, it will bring us further away from it.

[A Marxist Historian]

It is, yet isn't:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/03/24.htm



This was a demand aimed at the bourgeois state for bourgeois implementation.

Yes. In the Nineteenth Century, when capitalism was still a progressive social force. In 1848, Marx even made the mistake (not fully understanding the role of slavery in it) of supporting the US side in the war with Mexico, on the grounds that US victory over Mexico would mean economic progress, which is true actually, as we Californians know.

Times have changed. Ideas appropriate to then are not appropriate now, due to something called imperialism, which Lenin wrote a book about, which I imagine you have read a time or three.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Well, in the Communist Manifesto, they wrote, "In Germany, they fight with the bourgeoisie whenever it acts in a revolutionary way, against the absolute monarchy, the feudal squirearchy, and the petty bourgeoisie. But they never cease, for a single instant, to instill into the working class the clearest possible recognition of the hostile antagonism between bourgeoisie and proletariat [...] The Communists turn their attention chiefly to Germany, because that country is on the eve of a bourgeois revolution that is bound to be carried out under more advanced conditions of European civilisation and with a much more developed proletariat than that of England was in the seventeenth, and France in the eighteenth century, and because the bourgeois revolution in Germany will be but the prelude to an immediately following proletarian revolution."

The "indivisible republic" was the watchword of bourgeois liberals in Germany.

Contemporarily, nationalistic solutions like leaving the EU won't work, and settling for the existing arrangement of financial services isn't good, either.

So OK then, your solution to the economic problems of Europe is ... a bourgeois revolution, to unite all the bourgeoisies of Europe into one powerful superpower, that I guess can then go head to head with the USA.

I find that a bit problematic.

The EU is basically a result of the partial economic unification of Europe ... by Hitler, and maintained after the war by the US, despite much resistance, to further US domination. It, and the Common Market before it, did result in some genuine economic progress in Western Europe in the Fifties and Sixties, even after the reconstruction process after WWII was complete.

To really finish the job under capitalism, you'd need another Hitler. As we all know, there are a lot of downsides to that idea...

-M.H.-

[Rusty Shackleford]

Got a link to something similar that doesn't suck as bad as the WSJ? Just thinking about subscribing to that rag to read the rest of the article makes me want to rub purel into my eyeballs.
dont bother. its basically about how it is impossible for Greece to leave the Euro and how most euro banks are starting to insulate themselves.

[Die Neue Zeit]

There is no absolute monarchy around here nowadays so I see no reason why I should be fighting with the bourgeoisie.

I wasn't suggesting that. Grassroots pressure for forced implementation of an ECB monopoly over all financial services is hardly "fighting with the bourgeoisie."


Why leaving the EU "won't work"?

Greece is simply too small an economy to function in the long run, let alone with economic autarky.


That's like saying that a revolution in Russia should wait for all the entente countries to have revolutions themselves.

Not at all. All those countries were not interconnected enough. Leaving the EU with the illusion of a "workers state" carries more negative consequences than struggling for an EU-wide workers polity.


Staying in the EU and enacting the same laws as everyone else while claiming you're better because you support an ECB monopoly on financial services doesn't really sound communist. Or good in any way. Not for communism, not for the people.

As I wrote above, organizing for a workers' EU-wide polity, or even a more centralized yet radical-democratic European Union that is teetering on the edge of a second politically revolutionary phase, is better than nationalistic illusions.

[FSL]

Should Cuba just become the 51st state then and aim for a "radical democratic" US?
With a FED monopoly on financial services that will do so much good to workers?



Imperialism's chain breaks at its weakest link. Greece does sound like the weakest.
You say there will be an "illusion" of a workers' state. That of course is nonsense. There would be a workers' state, it would go up against capital, it probably would meet resistance and a hostile approach from other countries that would make everything much more difficult but it would socialize property, eliminate surplus value, give everyone a job, a home (we have some 150 thousand newly built appartments vacant, we wouldn't even need to try) and access to basic services.


And it would be a historical event, were it to happen, with communism as a threat back on the news 24/7, with tons of people gaining courage, especially in eastern europe where dissatisfaction is rampant and organizing is still lacking, but also elsewhere.


Now having the ability to do all that and exchanging it for "a chance to push the EU to radical democracy" doesn't sound like a good trade-off.
How on earth would I do that? While still being only 2% of the eurozone's economy? Isn't being small and weak why we decided to stay? Would that change if we still were in? Why wouldn't other states just shrug us off? Why wouldn't voters just vote for some other MPs, conservative and socialdemocratic, who'd have more "realistic" aims than changing the course of the whole EU?


It's a road leading nowhere.

[chegitz guevara]

Greece is simply too small an economy to function in the long run, let alone with economic autarky.

Any revolution anywhere is doomed to poverty and collapse in the long run, if the revolution does not spread. The revolution in Greece will strike a blow at international capitalism, and it will inspire revolutionary movements in the rest of the PIIGS. It will give strength to the Arab revolts. The revolution in Greece isn't for Greece to stand alone. It is to light the fires of Mediterranean revolution.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

To be really technical, I'm actually for the immediate replacement of the EU by a Europe-wide superstate

So you're not really arguing for the replacement of the EU, you're arguing that we finish Blair, Schroder and Chirac's job and make the EU a political union as well as a monetary/economic one. Brilliant.

I'm the least nationalist/patriotic person around, but it's time that the Euro was dissolved and the stem of power towards the unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels reversed back towards nation states.

Internationalism, in the political and economic sense, can only work when in working class hands, or when being advanced for anti-nationalistic purposes. It cannot work when it is in its 'globalisation' guise.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Any revolution anywhere is doomed to poverty and collapse in the long run, if the revolution does not spread. The revolution in Greece will strike a blow at international capitalism, and it will inspire revolutionary movements in the rest of the PIIGS. It will give strength to the Arab revolts. The revolution in Greece isn't for Greece to stand alone. It is to light the fires of Mediterranean revolution.

The best chance for nation-based revolutionary outbreaks in an integrated bloc is unified left organization throughout that bloc, like a Communist Party of the European Union. If it has to be forced through by means of greater institutional unity in the bloc itself, then so be it.


Should Cuba just become the 51st state then and aim for a "radical democratic" US?
With a FED monopoly on financial services that will do so much good to workers?

North America isn't as politically integrated as the EU.


So you're not really arguing for the replacement of the EU, you're arguing that we finish Blair, Schroder and Chirac's job and make the EU a political union as well as a monetary/economic one. Brilliant.

Neither Schroeder, Chirac, those around them, nor Blair in particular had any interests in making the EU a political union.


I'm the least nationalist/patriotic person around, but it's time that the Euro was dissolved and the stem of power towards the unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels reversed back towards nation states.

And bureaucrats of today's nation-states are accountable? :lol:

I'm for making the "unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels" as accountable as bureaucrats of today's nation-states, if not moreso.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Is this talk about the EU becoming a political union even relevant? Is this going to happen soon, is it on anybody's agenda that will actually try and put forward such an initiative? No? Then what are we wasting our time talking about it for in a thread about Greece defaulting?

[Die Neue Zeit]

Because leaving the eurozone will decrease the living standards of Greek workers.

[piet11111]

The EU is not going to be a political union for as long as France and Germany are rivals neither would ever give up their national interests.

Sure they want a financial dictatorship to force country's like Greece to sell every state owned asset and force other anti-working class measures through without having to deal with anything like democracy but would they ever stand for that in their own country's ?

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Because leaving the eurozone will decrease the living standards of Greek workers.
Which has nothing to do whatsoever with the EU becoming a political union as you want.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The EU is not going to be a political union for as long as France and Germany are rivals neither would ever give up their national interests.

They're not exactly rivals. Their beef is with the UK, which wants all the benefits of the EU without itself integrating. There was and is still talk of some sort of "inner" EU centered around France and Germany, specifically because the Eastern European influx was too inclined to support the UK over what Donald Rumsfeld once called "old Europe."

[Le Socialiste]

Because leaving the eurozone will decrease the living standards of Greek workers.

Their living standards are already being "decreased" under the watch of the eurozone. The deterioration of the Greek working-class and its material/living standards has been imposed by the EU, the IMF, and the ECB, and enforced by the Greek government. The working-class of Europe is being set up to take the brunt of the financial crisis, they're collective wellbeing is being stripped away regardless of whether they're in the eurozone or not.