Sex is not black and white

[Broletariat]

I'm aware of this fact, but would like to read some more about this, why it is so etc.

I ask because I've recently come across a Christian who is mostly agreeable politically but he has a bunch of reactionary as shit social positions, like this one for example. I can pretty much beat him down in arguments about it because I have a better knowledge of Science than him obviously, but I'd like to study up some more on it.

If you could also post some ballin articles on gender that'd be cool too.

[piet11111]

I do not understand what you are asking for.

[Iron Felix]

I guess OP meant "race" and not "sex"?

[Aussie_Leftist]

sex is indeed not black and white, rather it is fluid. sex-differences and genetics have a clear role, for example the difference in hormone composition, however its much more complicated than that. its now believed by social scientists that "social contructionalism" has the greatest role to play, basically people internalize societal norms and values. The differences between peoples levels of masculinity/femininity can be described as the degree to which they accept these ideas. EG. for men: tough, independent etc. and for women: gentle, caring etc. its a pretty interesting area to look into.

you would need journal access to the articles i know of.

[Broletariat]

I do not understand what you are asking for.

Scientific articles about how sex is not black and white.


I guess OP meant "race" and not "sex"?

No, I meant sex.


sex is indeed not black and white, rather it is fluid. sex-differences and genetics have a clear role, for example the difference in hormone composition, however its much more complicated than that. its now believed by social scientists that "social contructionalism" has the greatest role to play, basically people internalize societal norms and values. The differences between peoples levels of masculinity/femininity can be described as the degree to which they accept these ideas. EG. for men: tough, independent etc. and for women: gentle, caring etc. its a pretty interesting area to look into.

you would need journal access to the articles i know of.

You seem to be drifting into gender, here I'm specifically interested in sex, penis/vagina/mix.

[piet11111]

What do you mean with not being black and white ?
Obviously sex is not a color (but its clear you do not think that either :laugh: it would be my favorite color though)

Seems to me you just want some good porn websites now.

[Broletariat]

What do you mean with not being black and white ?
Obviously sex is not a color (but its clear you do not think that either :laugh: it would be my favorite color though)

Seems to me you just want some good porn websites now.
I have no idea how you're getting that impression.

I mean that sex isn't binary, it's not just male and female, there's more to it.

[Tenka]

Isn't it true that our biological sex at birth is determined entirely by the varying levels of exposure to different hormones in the womb, and how the doctor labels the results of such? Beyond that I reckon it is all gender/social construct; even the brain in large part can be moulded by these things, though I have nothing scholarly to back up that latter claim and could just be talking out my arse.

I personally don't view a person's sex as something that should be descriptive of them; just minor morphological variations in the human species to carry out our past and present mode of reproduction that will hopefully be replaced by something better in the future, bringing about the complete obsolescence of said morphological variation and its eventual failure to appear in our species at all.

In the meantime, down with patriarchy!

[Broletariat]

Yea, that's the kind of thing I'm looking for. Though I'd like a link to something talking about the hormones and such from a "credible" source.

[Tenka]

From Wikipedia; interesting and possibly relevant. I honestly fail at biology (and sourcing anything), but apparently even those with a female "genetic (chromosomal) sex" can develop testes and be deemed male at birth?

Testis-determining factor (TDF) is a general term for the gene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene) (or product thereof) that results in maleness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maleness) in humans and some other species.
Certain genes cause chemical reactions that result in the development of testes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testes). Embryos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo) are gonadally (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonad) identical, regardless of genetic sex, until a certain point in development; then the testis-determining factor causes male sex organs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_organs) to develop, whereas lack of this factor will cause the embryo to develop as physically female (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testis_determining_factor#cite_note-Mittwoch1988-0)
The TDF factor is encoded by the SRY (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRY) gene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene) located in the Y chromosome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_chromosome). It is a DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deoxyribonucleic_acid)-binding protein that enhances other transcription factors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcription_factor), or is a transcription factor itself. Its expression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_expression) directly or indirectly causes the development of primary sex cords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_cord), which will later develop to seminiferous tubules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seminiferous_tubule). These cords form in the central part of the yet-undifferentiated gonad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonad), turning it into a testis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testis). The now induced Leydig cells of the testis then starts secreting testosterone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone) while the Sertoli cells produce Mullerian Inhibiting Substance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mullerian_Inhibiting_Substance).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testis_determining_factor#cite_note-Mittwoch1988-0)

[Nox]

I think sex is a spectrum rather than a simple male or female.

You have males at one end, females at the other end, and various mixes inbetween.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Don't forget about asexuals, i.e. people with fully functioning reproductive systems but little to no interest in sex.

[Broletariat]

Don't forget about asexuals, i.e. people with fully functioning reproductive systems but little to no interest in sex.

That's more sexual orientation, I was more interested in the physical reproductive parts or lack thereof.

[ZeroNowhere]

Generally speaking, when people say that sex is fluid they are either discussing sexual orientation or flirting with somebody on a swim team.

[black_tar_heroin]

A person can 'internalize societal norms and values' all they want but it doesn't negate their biological sex, but is relevant to the construction of their gender. Someone may argue that the definitions of 'male' and 'female' are themselves social constructions and one which have been used to stigmatize and ostracize people who don't fit in those categories, as well as a basis upon which to claim that heterosexuality is natural and homosexuality not. The latter part is certainly true.

However, whilst 'male' and 'female' and correspondingly 'intersex' may be open to discussion, they do describe real biological differences. If your friend denies the existence of intersex people, then he is denying reality. If he thinks that our biological sex determines our gender then ask him whether he thinks someone's skin color determines their character since both arguments stem from the the same sort of biological essentialism.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

That's more sexual orientation, I was more interested in the physical reproductive parts or lack thereof.

In that case there is intersexuality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex). So there's a physical basis for intersex individuals to identify themselves as such, rather than identifying as male or female.