Question About Neo-Nazi's

[thriller]

I have a question about Neo-nazi ideas. So National Socialist groups in America and other places deny the Holocaust and say it was a hoax. But yet they hate Jewish people and want to seem them wiped out. Isn't that contradictory? I mean if they are all about Hitler and his facist-ass wouldn't they be proud of the Holocaust? Otherwise it seems like their "great leader" didn't "accomplish" anything. I know, it may be hard to even delve into the mind of Nazi's, but I just don't get it.

[Fopeos]

I think, secretly they do believe the holocaust happened and see it as a great accomplishment. They try to deny it publicly in an attempt to appeal to a broader base. Just a guess.

[Tjis]

By denying it, they get to claim that all evidence for the holocaust is Jewish propaganda part of their master plan for world domination.
So more opportunities to hate them basically.

[Commissar Rykov]

By denying it, they get to claim that all evidence for the holocaust is Jewish propaganda part of their master plan for world domination.
So more opportunities to hate them basically.
Pretty much it makes sense to them I am sure but I have always found X group controls the World to be extremely silly and paranoid. Their attacks on the Holocaust are basically to try and paint themselves as the Martyrs of WWII while completely ignoring all the countries Hitler steamrollered.

[Sasha]

this ^ what tjis said, but also its pretty much like all those "kill the commies!" wannabe GI joes who still vehemently would deny any human rights abuses in vietnam.
they cant deal with the actual consequences of their violent rhetoric.

[The Douche]

Most normal people have no tolerance for such a massive loss of life. So the nazis have to deny it because 1) they (most of them) can't come to grips with the fact that their ideology stands for the execution of 6 million and 2) in order to recruit people they must assure them that it won't happen, and the easiest way to do that would be to try and convince people it never did/there is no precedent.

[ColonelCossack]

Most normal people have no tolerance for such a massive loss of life. So the nazis have to deny it because 1) they (most of them) can't come to grips with the fact that their ideology stands for the execution of 6 million and 2) in order to recruit people they must assure them that it won't happen, and the easiest way to do that would be to try and convince people it never did/there is no precedent.


actually it's only 6 million jews

If you add all the homosexuals, mentally disabled people, physically disabled people, gypsies, POWs, trade unionists, socialists and communists that they killed the figure is closer to 11 million.

But that's only what bourgeois media say... and they're bloody generous to nazis, compared to communism. The true figures probably considerably higher than 11 million.

[Commissar Rykov]

actually it's only 6 million jews

If you add all the homosexuals, mentally disabled people, physically disabled people, gypsies, POWs, trade unionists, socialists and communists that they killed the figure is closer to 11 million.

But that's only what bourgeois media say... and they're bloody generous to nazis, compared to communism. The true figures probably considerably higher than 11 million.
Indeed, I have always found it kind of insulting that the Holocaust count most of the time ignores everyone else but Jews. The reality is the Nazis tore such a bloody swath through Europe that the only way anyone could redeem that is by claiming it didn't happen. I think that is the reason the Neos only discuss the Jews as trying to say how everyone else is a coverup or propaganda as well wouldn't make any sense not even in their warped ideology.

[Tommy4ever]

Indeed, I have always found it kind of insulting that the Holocaust count most of the time ignores everyone else but Jews. The reality is the Nazis tore such a bloody swath through Europe that the only way anyone could redeem that is by claiming it didn't happen. I think that is the reason the Neos only discuss the Jews as trying to say how everyone else is a coverup or propaganda as well wouldn't make any sense not even in their warped ideology.

Add to that the 1-2 million civilians murdered by the Ustache in Croatia and whatever the figures for Italian and Fascist murder of civilians (I'd imagine mostly leftists and dissidents, nothing on the same scale as Germany and Croatia) and the then the figure of civilian murders directly caused by purposeful extermination justified by Fascist ideology (not famines or poor economic policy or anything like that) is quite incredible considering its brief influence. This doesn't even take into account the millions of war deaths and the 12-19 million Soviet civilians killed during the war (famines, purposeful neglect and the fact the biggest war in human history was going on in the region mean that these deaths were slightly different to the more structured mass murders).

And that assumes that we don't consider Japan Fascist. Historians estimate that the Japanese armed forces killed anywhere between 5 and 30 millions (mostly Chinese) civilians between 1937 and 1945.

The more you think about Fascism the worst it seems. These figures are really fucking mind boggling. Even at their worst neither Stalin nor Mao ever did anything so terrible as the shit that went on in the 30s and 40s in Europe and the Far East.

[Nox]

Indeed, I have always found it kind of insulting that the Holocaust count most of the time ignores everyone else but Jews.

Yes, it's unfortunate that the other 5 million victims are often forgotten about, I'm extremely lucky that my great-grandparents were spared.

I think there are numerous reasons why that is the case such as the fact that pretty much all Hitler ever spoke about was the Jews, and the fact that the majority of the people killed in the Holocaust were Jews, and the creation of Israel which the Holocaust had a huge factor in justifying.

[eric922]

And that assumes that we don't consider Japan Fascist. Historians estimate that the Japanese armed forces killed anywhere between 5 and 30 millions (mostly Chinese) civilians between 1937 and 1945.

.
That raises an interesting question, was Imperial Japan a Fascist state?

Oh and when discussing Fascism don't forget the people Franco had killed, and possibly Pinochet in Chile(I'm not sure if he was a real Fascist or not though)

[ColonelCossack]

That raises an interesting question, was Imperial Japan a Fascist state?

Oh and when discussing Fascism don't forget the people Franco had killed, and possibly Pinochet in Chile(I'm not sure if he was a real Fascist or not though)

Pinochet was good friends with Maggie Thatcher.

Poor Pinochet...

Disclaimer: i am not a reactionary, and i do not support Pinochet.

[Tjis]

Whether or not Japan was fascist during the second world war has been heavily discussed before: http://www.revleft.com/vb/japan-fascism-during-t155091/index.html

[OHumanista]

Neo-nazis don't have to make sense, on Holacaust it is just like Fopeos and Tjis said.
An awesome (stupid) fact is that here in Brasil I once a neo nazi leader who was of mixed black/native-american ascendancy :laugh:

[Bronco]

I think it's mainly because they feel it discredits their ideology completely and holds them back, this is what Harold Covington (a neo-Nazi) said about it:


I recall seeing a television program on revisionism a few years ago which closed with Deborah Lipstadt making some statement to the effect that: "the real purpose of Holocaust revisionism is to make National Socialism an acceptable political alternative again." I normally don't agree with anything a Jew says, but I recall exclaiming, "Bingo! Got it in one! Give that lady a cigar!"

[Tablo]

Japan was not fascist. Fascism is a specific thing, not a broad term to throw at mass murderers.

[Princess Luna]

Japan was not fascist. Fascism is a specific thing, not a broad term to throw at mass murderers.

Noun

fascism (usually uncountable; plural fascisms)

1.A political regime, having totalitarian aspirations, ideologically based on a relationship between business and the centralized government, business-and-government control of the market place, repression of criticism or opposition, a leader cult and exalting the state and/or religion above individual rights. Originally only applied (usually capitalized) to Benito Mussolini's Italy.

I think 1930's Japan fit this definition

[Commissar Rykov]

Noun

fascism (usually uncountable; plural fascisms)

1.A political regime, having totalitarian aspirations, ideologically based on a relationship between business and the centralized government, business-and-government control of the market place, repression of criticism or opposition, a leader cult and exalting the state and/or religion above individual rights. Originally only applied (usually capitalized) to Benito Mussolini's Italy.

I think 1930's Japan fit this definition
Should we look at the dictionary definitions for Anarchism or Communism both are just as vague and inaccurate.

[Tim Cornelis]

Noun

fascism (usually uncountable; plural fascisms)

1.A political regime, having totalitarian aspirations, ideologically based on a relationship between business and the centralized government, business-and-government control of the market place, repression of criticism or opposition, a leader cult and exalting the state and/or religion above individual rights. Originally only applied (usually capitalized) to Benito Mussolini's Italy.

I think 1930's Japan fit this definition

If there is no mention of the ultra-nationalism that is inherent in fascism it a flawed definition.

[Princess Luna]

Should we look at the dictionary definitions for Anarchism or Communism both are just as vague and inaccurate.
Regardless, saying Japan was Fascist is alot different than saying someone like Pol Pot was fascist, Japan had many of the ideological traits of Fascism, had several confirmed fascists in highlevels of the government at the time, and pursued close relations with the two nations had Fascism as there main ideology and as the saying goes, "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

[RexCactus]

The contradiction in Neo-Nazism lies in their total defence of Adolf Hitler. Most Neo-Nazis, or at least the ones who won't blatantly state that they are part of the legacy of the murders of over 11 million individuals, will state outright that Hitler had no idea what was going on in the Holocaust. Supposedly, Jews, homosexuals, cripples, the insane, &c (not Communists generally, though), were to be deported to nations that would deal with them in a positive manner. Hitler gave control of the deportation programme to Heinrich Himmler, who, according to the Neo-Nazis, secretly went behind Hitler's back to execute the victims of the Holocaust. They further believe that Hitler committed suicide in 1945 because he could not cope with the actions of Himmler in the Holocaust (a load of crockery, if you ask me).

Japan was not Fascist, they were Imperial, or more accurately a modernised Feudalist State. Compare it to the Tsar or the Kaiser.

A more accurate definition of Fascism, I find, would be the following:

"Fascism, a socio-political ideology of the Far Right, created primarily by Italian Benito Mussolini, is an ideology promoting the survival and prosperity of the State above all else. To accomplish this goal, all individuals must be unified under the intent of the State, thus creating a great importance in the notion of Nationalism (i.e. celebration of all things of the nation, primarily culturally and militarily). This has deep roots in the Thomas Hobbes interpretation of Social Contract Theory (as shown in "Leviathan"), where a strong government entity is necessary to overpower the natural warring status of mankind when left to their devices of competition, diffidence, and glory. The State's power establishes order and justice, allowing for unity within and the flourishing of a national culture, but it is constantly threatened by external State forces that may potential seek to overpower the original State. Thus the Fascist State must constantly expand until its hegemonic presence either presents itself as the sole Hyperpower or the sole power in the world, creating a singular, ultra-national code of ethics, culture, language, &c, and thus, in a sense, establishing world peace. To meet these ends, Fascists praise merit, honour, and strength, which they believe to be exemplified in wartime. Through constant promotion of these values, the national body can be mobilised to war with a strange fervor. This in turn reinforces the national identity through Social Darwinism by eliminating those deemed demeritorious, dishonourable, weak, or cowardly--in other words, inferior--allowing for the supposedly superior human stock to continue to procreate until the ultimate national breed can exist.

To meet the needs of the Authoritarian (and occasionally Totalitarian) structure of the Fascist State with Fascist values, a strong governmental hierarchy must be formed and it must possess the greatest power of any other social classes in society. Government must put a model example of the Fascist values, typically as their leader (often a dictator, although not necessarily), to be idolised by the general public. Because of the particularity in what constitutes a model of Fascist values and the paranoid dominance of the nomenklatura, successors to Fascist leaders are often hard to determine. Democracy, viewed as a facade, is directly ruled out, as generally is Oligarchy, as they both eliminate the certainty of the superior quality of the leader. It is not uncommon then for a Fascist leader to essentially apprentice a successor, opening him or her (generally him) to the public as much as possible for a smooth transition of power.

Eugenics, although a tenant of Fascism in order to promote the "health" of the nation long term, is rarely if ever as extreme as was taken by the National Socialists. In general, Fascists view all races to be unique and equal, but promote the dominant race of their nation in line with the previously established tenant of Nationalism. As Fascism is most often centred in Europe, the Caucasian race (specifically the "Aryans" of Scandinavia) is most often mistaken as the "superior race" through a Fascist lens, both by the general public and by many Fascists who find comfort in the seeming racism of the ideology.

Fascists further reject the Liberal and Marxist interpretations of class. To a Fascist, the bourgeoisie should not be permitted to dominate the rest of society, but neither should the proletarian. Rather, the government class of nomenklatura must work in conjunction with the dominant classes to establish class harmony, which they believe can be established through Corporatism. Corporatism is the private control of industry (promotes the bourgeois and thus Liberalism) with heavy union representation and thus worker control (promotes the proletarian and thus Marxism), but under the heavy direction of the State, especially when in the State's own interest (promotes the nomenklatura, supposedly harmonises class struggle, and completes tripartisan Fascism)."

[Commissar Rykov]

Regardless, saying Japan was Fascist is alot different than saying someone like Pol Pot was fascist, Japan had many of the ideological traits of Fascism, had several confirmed fascists in highlevels of the government at the time, and pursued close relations with the two nations had Fascism as there main ideology and as the saying goes, "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."
Japan wasn't fascist it was at the beginning a typical Imperial Monarchy there is no questioning that they even crushed a fascist uprising by Imperial Army Cadets. Once Tojo took control it became a Military Junta but it was never fascist it was just an Ultranationalist Entity that wanted to created an East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere in which Japan was the ultimate controller of everything thus not very fascist as they didn't intend to subjugate unlike Italy with the literal rebuilding of the Roman Empire instead the Japanese wanted puppets that would support the Emperor of Japan as the head of an Asian Confederacy.

Japan was still Feudalistic in Nature and made no attempts at Class Collaboration that Fascism aimed for. Hell they seemed more intent at further stratification and class antagonism in their system which is something a Fascist system attempts to stop because it is considered unhealthy for the State.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Japan wasn't fascist it was at the beginning a typical Imperial Monarchy there is no questioning that they even crushed a fascist uprising by Imperial Army Cadets. Once Tojo took control it became a Military Junta but it was never fascist it was just an Ultranationalist Entity that wanted to created an East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere in which Japan was the ultimate controller of everything thus not very fascist as they didn't intend to subjugate unlike Italy with the literal rebuilding of the Roman Empire instead the Japanese wanted puppets that would support the Emperor of Japan as the head of an Asian Confederacy.

Japan was still Feudalistic in Nature and made no attempts at Class Collaboration that Fascism aimed for. Hell they seemed more intent at further stratification and class antagonism in their system which is something a Fascist system attempts to stop because it is considered unhealthy for the State.

There were definitely attempts at realising fascism such as the Taisei Yokusankai (aiming at a totalitarian mass-movement, with moderate success in doing so), but the upper parts of the political structure did not particularly find this appealing, and those attempts were short-lived and had already mostly fizzled out into obscurity by 1941.

[Stork]

I have a question about Neo-nazi ideas. So National Socialist groups in America and other places deny the Holocaust and say it was a hoax. But yet they hate Jewish people and want to seem them wiped out. Isn't that contradictory? I mean if they are all about Hitler and his facist-ass wouldn't they be proud of the Holocaust? Otherwise it seems like their "great leader" didn't "accomplish" anything. I know, it may be hard to even delve into the mind of Nazi's, but I just don't get it.
Well, having being involved in this sick crowd I can say that basically they deny the holocaust solely to say "Hitler wasn't that bad". I mean they grasp at straws and slight holes in the "holohoax" pointing out things that real scientists also know are fake. It's like when Creationists talk about those drawings of fetuses or Piltdown Man.
Nobody denies the holocaust except Nazi sympathizers. But you can't blame them, I mean, if they didn't deny it they would have to justify it