What causes fascists to break from fascism?

[Rainsborough]

This might sound like a moot point, but it is an issue that I think needs discussing.

Why do fascists break from fascism, there has to be a reason? How can they move from a racist to a non-racist position? Is there a certain kind of fascist that is easier to turn than another?

[ВАЛТЕР]

A bullet can quickly make them give up their political, social, and economic beliefs....

but seriously,

I think in itself fascism is idiotic even when looked at from a child's perspective. Therefore those who support fascism usually are indoctrinated from a young age by friends, family, TV, etc. Only way to break that is to show them that fascism is a cancer to working class society and it does nothing for progress. Maybe make them see themselves as a victim of fascism and in that sense make them realize their beliefs are harmful to others.

[Zav]

Only way to break that is to show them that fascism is a cancer to working class society and it does nothing for progress. Maybe make them see themselves as a victim of fascism and in that sense make them realize their beliefs are harmful to others.
Good luck with that. Trying to make a fascist see hir own beliefs for what they are is nigh impossible.

[Kosakk]

In Scandinavia, most neo-nazis/fascists are social outcasts.
Not "wanted" by society, they end up seeking out these hate-groups and joining them.
Most of them join for the companionship.

By time, some of them will have a change of heart, and leave.
There are several organisations working to get these kids away from the groups.
And they do so by showing them that it's possible to make friends outside these groups.

[Commissar Rykov]

This might sound like a moot point, but it is an issue that I think needs discussing.

Why do fascists break from fascism, there has to be a reason? How can they move from a racist to a non-racist position? Is there a certain kind of fascist that is easier to turn than another?
Not all fascists are racist. Maybe you should educate yourself on the position you are attacking? Why I left Fascism was twofold and something I discussed in a previous thread the movement is anti-Worker not just anti-Worker they feel they have the right to castrate, maim, etc. workers who don't get in line this was completely unacceptable to me. Secondly the Neo-Fascists movement today have long since abandoned any kind of Italian variety it is largely made up of Strasserists or Neo-Nazis where as at least early Italian Fascism was democratic and rejected racialism as unscientific garbage. I had decided to leave the movement because it was getting out of control and it was not what I had ignorantly signed up for if it hadn't been for a friend who was a Left Communist I don't know if I would have come up with an escape plan. Not that it matters some of those people I associated with know who I am and have threatened my life and the life of my family since I left everything from shootings to mail bombs. Which made me ponder even more why I had been so naive.

[The Douche]

I have only ever met one real ex-fascist in real life. Most people who claim they are not nazis anymore simply still are. For instance, a big nazi crew near me, Keystone State Skinheads, who are/were aligned with Combat 18, recently "disbanded" and started a new crew called "Keystone United", a lot of the members stopped looking so much like skinheads, and they claimed they were a white power crew anymore, not only did everybody see through that, but they soon came out as "not racist, just pro-white". :rolleyes:

The one dude that I know who is not a nazi anymore dropped out of the movement because he was sick of the constant street fights, and scared after seeing lots of his comrades go to jail on federal charges. (so don't let anybody tell you physical, street based anti-fascism doesn't work)

Now, even though he's not a nazi anymore, he's still latently racist (though he loves to have sex with women of all races now:rolleyes:), and he's still politically reactionary.

[Rainsborough]

Not all fascists are racist. Maybe you should educate yourself on the position you are attacking? Why I left Fascism was twofold and something I discussed in a previous thread the movement is anti-Worker not just anti-Worker they feel they have the right to castrate, maim, etc. workers who don't get in line this was completely unacceptable to me. Secondly the Neo-Fascists movement today have long since abandoned any kind of Italian variety it is largely made up of Strasserists or Neo-Nazis where as at least early Italian Fascism was democratic and rejected racialism as unscientific garbage. I had decided to leave the movement because it was getting out of control and it was not what I had ignorantly signed up for if it hadn't been for a friend who was a Left Communist I don't know if I would have come up with an escape plan. Not that it matters some of those people I associated with know who I am and have threatened my life and the life of my family since I left everything from shootings to mail bombs. Which made me ponder even more why I had been so naive.

Oh I'm well aware there are different kinds of fascists, the civic kind and the nationalist kind, those who chose to be inclusive of any one as long as they were born in the country in question and those who reject anyone who doesn't fit their 'racist' ideals. In Britain the BNP and possibly the EDL fit the first stereotype while the National Front the second.

I presume from the fact that you claim not to be racist you come from a Civic style fascism, Mosleyite, BNP, etc. So what I'm trying to ascertain is it easier to break away from civic fascism rather than the nationalist version epitomised by the neo-nazis?

[The Douche]

Mosley's BUF and the BNP are both racist groups.

Italian Fascism is racist. It was not democratic.

Rykov, I encourage you to start a new thread somewhere in order to prove your assertions, that Italian fascism is not based on the ethnic nation and that it was democratic.

[Commissar Rykov]

Oh I'm well aware there are different kinds of fascists, the civic kind and the nationalist kind, those who chose to be inclusive of any one as long as they were born in the country in question and those who reject anyone who doesn't fit their 'racist' ideals. In Britain the BNP and possibly the EDL fit the first stereotype while the National Front the second.

I presume from the fact that you claim not to be racist you come from a Civic style fascism, Mosleyite, BNP, etc. So what I'm trying to ascertain is it easier to break away from civic fascism rather than the nationalist version epitomised by the neo-nazis?
Much easier the civic kind doesn't have the dogmatic hatred of everything under the sun. I find the nationalist kind are usually lost causes as they know what they are doing while the civic kind are just naive and stupid. Civic style fascists are typically mocked and frowned upon by the movement anyways so that probably helps in that they don't gell with the community they are involved in thus are not as cemented. The nationalist kind are typically a lost cause as they are pretty damn violent by nature.

[Astarte]

Why do fascists break from fascism, there has to be a reason?

Usually pincer invasions. Sometimes atomic bombs.

[Commissar Rykov]

Mosley's BUF and the BNP are both racist groups.

Italian Fascism is racist. It was not democratic.

Rykov, I encourage you to start a new thread somewhere in order to prove your assertions, that Italian fascism is not based on the ethnic nation and that it was democratic.
Why start a new thread it would fall under the purview of this thread. You act like Italian Fascism was some kind of united under one banner ideology it wasn't. I suggest reading Doctrine of Fascism by Giovanni Gentile though it is typically printed as being written by Benito Mussolini it discusses a democratic parliamentary system as part of the Fascist State. That Mussolini latter decided he no longer wanted this after the March on Rome is probably no different then Hitler changing his goals while attaining power as he rejected similar ideals of maintaining a parliamentary system.

Racism was no way inherent in the Italian system in fact Jews were allowed to be members of the Fascist Party this changed with the 1938 Race Laws or was it 36? Can never remember that Mussolini enacted. Mussolini made the State a racialist state in order to align himself with Hitler after his failed attempt at diplomacy with the other Entente Powers. The only hatred Mussolini had initially was that of the Masons otherwise he rejected race based laws and even stated that Germany was a barbaric state for enacting them. That Mussolini was a hypocrite doesn't make the entire movement he started Racialist that would be silly. The historical documentation of Mussolini's complete 180 is well provided through various historical texts and it is largely why there is no longer a divide between Fascist and Neo-Nazi whereas before he made the move it was a massive gap.

Also the Brazilian Integralist movement which was fascist was non-racist as well and part of their party program was the uniting of every race under one banner. Though once WWII started and Mussolini's shift in racism it quickly died out as nothing more than a footnote in history.

[The Douche]

Why start a new thread it would fall under the purview of this thread. You act like Italian Fascism was some kind of united under one banner ideology it wasn't. I suggest reading Doctrine of Fascism by Giovanni Gentile though it is typically printed as being written by Benito Mussolini it discusses a democratic parliamentary system as part of the Fascist State. That Mussolini latter decided he no longer wanted this after the March on Rome is probably no different then Hitler changing his goals while attaining power as he rejected similar ideals of maintaining a parliamentary system.

Racism was no way inherent in the Italian system in fact Jews were allowed to be members of the Fascist Party this changed with the 1938 Race Laws or was it 36? Can never remember that Mussolini enacted. Mussolini made the State a racialist state in order to align himself with Hitler after his failed attempt at diplomacy with the other Entente Powers. The only hatred Mussolini had initially was that of the Masons otherwise he rejected race based laws and even stated that Germany was a barbaric state for enacting them. That Mussolini was a hypocrite doesn't make the entire movement he started Racialist that would be silly. The historical documentation of Mussolini's complete 180 is well provided through various historical texts and it is largely why there is no longer a divide between Fascist and Neo-Nazi whereas before he made the move it was a massive gap.

Also the Brazilian Integralist movement which was fascist was non-racist as well and part of their party program was the uniting of every race under one banner. Though once WWII started and Mussolini's shift in racism it quickly died out as nothing more than a footnote in history.

I'm not gonna discuss it in here because its off topic. The history/politics of italian fascism is not the same subject matter as "how to get fascists to change their minds".

[Commissar Rykov]

I'm not gonna discuss it in here because its off topic. The history/politics of italian fascism is not the same subject matter as "how to get fascists to change their minds".
No it isn't but it does highlight that there are various strains of thought that survive even today in the Neo-Fascist movement. The reality is though like the original part of the Italian Fascist Movement that was democratic it is largely sidelined by the more aggressive racialist element that makes up the majority of Neo-Fascism. The reality is people like myself and the handful of others of Gentile or Brazilian school of thought are even outsiders in the Neo-Fash movement and thus able to much more easily disconnect ourselves though it still has risks which is something I think everyone should be aware of.

[Rainsborough]

No it isn't but it does highlight that there are various strains of thought that survive even today in the Neo-Fascist movement. The reality is though like the original part of the Italian Fascist Movement that was democratic it is largely sidelined by the more aggressive racialist element that makes up the majority of Neo-Fascism. The reality is people like myself and the handful of others of Gentile or Brazilian school of thought are even outsiders in the Neo-Fash movement and thus able to much more easily disconnect ourselves though it still has risks which is something I think everyone should be aware of.

Democratic-fascism? Not sure I know that one.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Not all fascists are racist. Maybe you should educate yourself on the position you are attacking? Why I left Fascism was twofold and something I discussed in a previous thread the movement is anti-Worker not just anti-Worker they feel they have the right to castrate, maim, etc. workers who don't get in line this was completely unacceptable to me. Secondly the Neo-Fascists movement today have long since abandoned any kind of Italian variety it is largely made up of Strasserists or Neo-Nazis where as at least early Italian Fascism was democratic and rejected racialism as unscientific garbage. I had decided to leave the movement because it was getting out of control and it was not what I had ignorantly signed up for if it hadn't been for a friend who was a Left Communist I don't know if I would have come up with an escape plan. Not that it matters some of those people I associated with know who I am and have threatened my life and the life of my family since I left everything from shootings to mail bombs. Which made me ponder even more why I had been so naive.

I forgot about you. I tihnk I owe you an apology, I thought you were a conspirator when you first came on here. Sorry.

But yeah, i'd imagine the people who leave Fascism are the 'corporatism' Fascist types who realise how idiotic the ideology is. I imagine that the ignorant, idiotic racist types that you find in the BNP and EDL will never leave Fascism, and if they did, they'd still keep their reactionary, racist right-wing views.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Nyan cat.
QH2-TGUlwu4

[ВАЛТЕР]

Good luck with that. Trying to make a fascist see hir own beliefs for what they are is nigh impossible.

Well then, machine guns and car bombs it is!

[Commissar Rykov]

Democratic-fascism? Not sure I know that one.
It was proposed by Giovanni Gentile in his Doctrine of Fascism it didn't really catch hold with the movement as a whole but it did intrigue me at the time. Though it really doesn't work with all the Strongman-esque bullshit the Fascist Movement likes to pawn off. Though I guess I was too inferior and not able to understand how Dear Leader could save humanity by wiggling his nose.


I forgot about you. I tihnk I owe you an apology, I thought you were a conspirator when you first came on here. Sorry.

But yeah, i'd imagine the people who leave Fascism are the 'corporatism' Fascist types who realise how idiotic the ideology is. I imagine that the ignorant, idiotic racist types that you find in the BNP and EDL will never leave Fascism, and if they did, they'd still keep their reactionary, racist right-wing views.
No need for an apology I understand why people can be hesitant I knew that coming in. I was rather afraid of being open about my past as people would take it that I was trying to infiltrate or gather information or some other garbage. That such organizations do it further warrants the need to be on guard. I am glad most people have been rather accepting at least it is better than the Neo-Fascist movement so far as no one as threatened to mail bombs to my house thus far.:lol:

I'll be honest though breaking away from Fascism is hard and I mean damn hard. You have to have not much conviction in it anyways which I didn't after arguments with my supposed brothers in cause over castrating the homeless, using artillery to level ghettos with the people still in them I might add, and just a general hatred of the working class. You have to offer them a safety net is the thing though as just leaving is not always great nor safe in my case I had some friends who gave me the courage I needed to walk away even though I was being threatened with my life. I was a rather shit fascist anyways as I didn't support Imperialism, I supported LGBT Rights, and I was rather anatagonistic towards the Bourgeoisie to the point I got accused of being a Red Spy. Honestly it was just so much ignorance and naivety on my own and looking for a real alternative to help people. The likelihood is I would have never gone looking in that direction if I hadn't felt so burned by the CPUSA and their bullshit.

[JoshBleedsRed]

Nyan cat.

One of the most awesome pots on RevLeft ever. Anyway, as for the topic, what causes fascists to breakaway? I think it differes from case to case, but it can be something as small as minute disagreements. The minute things have overbearing importance in Fascism, which is essentially an OCD (Obsessive-compulsive disordered) political system.

[The Douche]

What fascist organizations were you involved in/close to? Since you claim that it was somehow not glaringly apparent to you that fascism was inherently authoritarian and racist.

[Misanthrope]

Education, exposure to the real world.

[Susurrus]

What fascist organizations were you involved in/close to? Since you claim that it was somehow not glaringly apparent to you that fascism was inherently authoritarian and racist.

He's referring to the Original pre-Mussolini fascism, sometimes referred to as proto-fascism. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_manifesto


The classic definition of Italian Fascism applies to the latter part of the history of the movement in power, when Italy was firmly under the leadership of Benito Mussolini. Its initial political stance–in the June 1919 Manifesto–includes, however, many elements that would not be normally associated with fascism in the classic definition, including support for democracy (indeed, the fascist manifesto actually called for greater democratic rights) and a limited number of social ideas. All these were slowly abandoned over the following years, as fascism took its recognizable, anti-democratic form.

Also, fascism isn't racist, by itself, just nationalist. Nazism and Fascism are distinct ideologies.

[Rafiq]

One first must clarify what exactly they mean by "Fascist"

The "Socialist Phalanx" is a perfect example of Fascists transitioning into Actual Revolutionary Socialism, with the abandonment of nationalism the final stage in the transformation to socialism, they would probably then leave the site.

Fascists, if they ever leave their ideology, will always be involved in Radical Politics, most of the time being Leftist. They are not idiotic enough to be dillusioned with bourgeois politics (Tea Partyers). Ever.

[The Douche]

Anybody who claims fascism is not inherently racist does not understand the concept of the "nation" as it is interpreted in europe, and especially by fascist thinkers (including Gentile).

Again, I'm curious to know what sort of fascist organizations poster commisar rykov was involved with.

Because I know of one phony, internet only, organization which claimed to be a fascist party here in the states, and also claimed that they were not racist. But they were still authoritarian. And they had about 15 people involved, and were not recognized by one single other fascist organization in the world. And their understanding of fascism was certainly not in line with what fascism really meant, it was a strange and eye-roll-worthy attempt at a liberal reinterpretation of fascism.

[Susurrus]

A thread from the past:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/calling-all-ex-t158047/index.html

[Commissar Rykov]

What fascist organizations were you involved in/close to? Since you claim that it was somehow not glaringly apparent to you that fascism was inherently authoritarian and racist.
American Fascist Movement before it went defunct due to arguments over how democratic or anti-democratic it should be. Not to mention its kind of umbrella-esque acceptance of people from a variety of backgrounds like Bonapartists and the like. AFM was avowedly anti-Racist though this shouldn't be confused with the new one starting up that is run by Tea Party Supporters they have no involvement that I know of with the previous incarnation.

I was then involved independently and came in contact with some guys running a newsletter in the USA called, "Reaktion" with support from the Integralist Party in the UK. That is when things got sideways and awkward.

[The Douche]

A thread from the past:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/calling-all-ex-t158047/index.html

In that thread the poster doesn't say anything about what organization he belonged to, he mentions only a "nationalist newsletter", which is a rather vague name, and no reference can be found to such a publication or an organization aligned with it.

That thread, like this one, just has the same poster saying "originally fascism wasn't authoritarian or racist". But he cannot provide the evidence for this, he's telling me to read texts I've read before, and recognize that they still justify authoritarianism and racism, and he won't source what organization/network he belonged to that permitted/encouraged/tolerated/promoted his warped view of a non-racist, democratic fascism.

[The Douche]

American Fascist Movement before it went defunct due to arguments over how democratic or anti-democratic it should be. Not to mention its kind of umbrella-esque acceptance of people from a variety of backgrounds like Bonapartists and the like. AFM was avowedly anti-Racist though this shouldn't be confused with the new one starting up that is run by Tea Party Supporters they have no involvement that I know of with the previous incarnation.

Thats what I figured.

They have an interpretation of fascism which is a-historical and inaccurate, it has no place, in literally, the entire world. There is not a single other fascist organization that supports or endorses them, despite that they used to beg for recognition from groups in Italy and Spain.

So you have this absurd concept of fascism, that about 10 people in the world agree with, yet you try to claim its the correct one?

[black magick hustla]

it really depends what you mean by fascism. people who joined real fascist movements with a real rank and file base were much different than people who join ahistorical roleplaying clubs or skinhead gangs. there was a time in some areas where fascism seemed to have the solution to many of society's problems, including unemployment, war, inflation,etc and the people who joined those movements were a lot of the times normal, and probably became social democrats when fascism failed. people who join skinhead gangs today are just antisocial, lumpenized elements and their politics are really just a irrelevant and second hand (in the same way that the politics of the cribs are irrelevant). there are also the more bookish fascists that are just irrelevant dweebs. the reactionary deadweight of race, nationhood, etc was carried on by liberal capitalism and social democracy. people need to stop treating fascism like this large threat beyond the violent criminality they represent in some areas.

also fascism was not "stupid" it represented a real class dynamic. its dumb to talok about ideologies like that.

[black magick hustla]

Because I know of one phony, internet only, organization which claimed to be a fascist party here in the states, and also claimed that they were not racist. But they were still authoritarian. And they had about 15 people involved, and were not recognized by one single other fascist organization in the world. And their understanding of fascism was certainly not in line with what fascism really meant, it was a strange and eye-roll-worthy attempt at a liberal reinterpretation of fascism.

"fascism" in europe is different than in the US though. for one fascism was a real movement in europe and therefore it isn't necessarily "Racist" (well it is racist anyway but its racist in the same way liberal democracy is racist), there is a qualitative difference between the italian far right which isn't totally an ahistorical roleplaying club yet, than a lumpenized, white supremacist prison gang.

[xub3rn00dlex]

Education, exposure to the real world.

Education plays a major part in it, but so does companionship. Those who are not indoctrinated into fascism during childhood may turn to it during personal hardships if they have no place left to go. Scapegoating is extremely easy to do, and gives fascists power and a sense of control over their own lives.

[The Douche]

"fascism" in europe is different than in the US though. for one fascism was a real movement in europe and therefore it isn't necessarily "Racist" (well it is racist anyway but its racist in the same way liberal democracy is racist), there is a qualitative difference between the italian far right which isn't totally an ahistorical roleplaying club yet, than a lumpenized, white supremacist prison gang.

You are wrong. Pretty much everything you're saying here is wrong...

1) "Fascism" is an ideology, thats like saying communism is different in the US than it is in europe. There may be some differences but the ideology is consistent. And there were very large groups of immigrant fascists (Italian and German) in the US which tied themselves to the movements in their homelands. It was not uncommon in the 20s and 30s to have gangs of uniformed black shirts attacking socialists on the streets of NYC.

2) In addition to the foreign movements there was an indigenous fascism in the US, such as father Coughlin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Coughlin) and the Silver Legion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Legion_of_America)

3) Fascism is inherently racist, its basis is the supremacy of the nation, with the state being the conscious physical expression of the myth of the nation. Nation, of course, meaning a people defined by language, shared culture, region, and yes, ethnicity. (therefor individuals who are not ethnically Italian, must always be seen as second class citizens to a fascist in Italy, the only difference is the degree to which they may or may not be accepted)



Quit whining about how irrelevant fascists are in the US according to your perception. That's not the point of this thread.

[Commissar Rykov]

In that thread the poster doesn't say anything about what organization he belonged to, he mentions only a "nationalist newsletter", which is a rather vague name, and no reference can be found to such a publication or an organization aligned with it.

That thread, like this one, just has the same poster saying "originally fascism wasn't authoritarian or racist". But he cannot provide the evidence for this, he's telling me to read texts I've read before, and recognize that they still justify authoritarianism and racism, and he won't source what organization/network he belonged to that permitted/encouraged/tolerated/promoted his warped view of a non-racist, democratic fascism.
Then you are obviously unfamiliar with the South American strands of Fascism which are democratic though I am amused that because I didn't come from the Racialist Strand I am somehow worse? Are you really trying to say it would have been better if I had come from a racialist strand as it would be more true to the version Mussolini enacted? Really? That doesn't even make sense nor are you obviously that familiar with the fascist movements if you are unfamiliar with democratic overtones that were used. Was it authoritarian in nature? Yes I do not dispute that but it wasn't always racialist nor anti-democratic that you seem to think so shows a out of place with modern historical documentation and historical fascist viewpoints.

You once again act like Fascism was a coherent ideology spouted from the womb of Mussolini. It wasn't the organization had many theorists and people from different positions that you are denying there is democratic talk in the movement shows you haven't even read something as basic as the Doctrine of Fascism or the various manifestos. That you are trying to peg down a syncretic movement to one strand of thought shows a lack of any proper historical analysis or review of the situation as a whole.

[Commissar Rykov]

Thats what I figured.

They have an interpretation of fascism which is a-historical and inaccurate, it has no place, in literally, the entire world. There is not a single other fascist organization that supports or endorses them, despite that they used to beg for recognition from groups in Italy and Spain.

So you have this absurd concept of fascism, that about 10 people in the world agree with, yet you try to claim its the correct one?
Confusing Neo-Fascism with Fascism is tad bit hilarious as the movements have nothing in common since the Neo-Fascist movement was largely inspired by Strasserism not Italian Fascism. There is a reason they pass out literature from Mosely who was inspired by Otto Strasser, Oswald Spengler and Julius Evola. It seems you somehow think the two movements are linked beyond anything but name the reality is they have very little in common and much more in common with National Socialism and its bizarre strands that the Strassers created.

[The Douche]

Go ahead and back up your assertions now.

You call fascism non-racist and democratic. This is contrary to what everybody here knows, and its contrary to the very core concepts of fascism as I laid them out briefly earlier.

You need to support your claim. You can't just say "read gentile", I have, I see no support for your claims, I see the opposite. I see that you have reinterpreted fascism in a liberal manner, but that doesn't make you right, and the fact that the historical fascist movement and the modern fascist movement are at odds with what you claim doesn't really help your assertions.

And yes, the fascist movements in south america do have a tendency of racism, directed against the indigenous people's of the area.

[Commissar Rykov]

Go ahead and back up your assertions now.

You call fascism non-racist and democratic. This is contrary to what everybody here knows, and its contrary to the very core concepts of fascism as I laid them out briefly earlier.

You need to support your claim. You can't just say "read gentile", I have, I see no support for your claims, I see the opposite. I see that you have reinterpreted fascism in a liberal manner, but that doesn't make you right, and the fact that the historical fascist movement and the modern fascist movement are at odds with what you claim doesn't really help your assertions.

And yes, the fascist movements in south america do have a tendency of racism, directed against the indigenous people's of the area.
Racism already carried out by the Bourgeoisie anyways but that is besides the point. Why do you want me to defend fascism? I don't I merely said there are strains of thought that are democratic that you don't want to agree to the fact that a wide sweeping movement like fascism had the ideas of parliamentary bodies is your own problem as it is in the Doctrine of Fascism itself which I have repeatedly stated. Why are you being so aggressive about this? It seems you want someone to defend fascism where no one is and your behavior is becoming quite obnoxious as you were given lists of books that discuss the matter and the various strands of thought that lead to the March on Rome. You can continue to be butthurt all you like but until you show even a basic understanding of what I am discussing and stop trying to bully and shoehorn people I see little reason to discuss things with you as you can't even be civil.

Edit: I promise to provide a page number from Doctrine of Fascism since you have read it you should be able to look it up yourself but at this point I have a stack of papers to go through and a some notes to look over before tomorrow comes along so I don't have the time to go digging through my bookshelf. I will make this point though if no such strand existed then why did Mussolini in his autobiography My Rise and Fall dedicate almost a whole chapter to ripping into that faction? He basically goes on a mad rant about doing what Hitler did and purge his party and overthrow the whole system by forcing the King to abdicate and thus setting himself up as a complete autocrat? Seems a little odd to be calling people out for retarding his "revolution" by suggesting using the parliamentary system doesn't it?

[Rainsborough]

But yeah, i'd imagine the people who leave Fascism are the 'corporatism' Fascist types who realise how idiotic the ideology is. I imagine that the ignorant, idiotic racist types that you find in the BNP and EDL will never leave Fascism, and if they did, they'd still keep their reactionary, racist right-wing views.

Okay, I've known (sadly) quite a few fascists none of which were non-racist. Oh they might have claimed it, like the BNP does, but it is no more than a smokescreen, a smiling face. However I come across on a regular basis ordinary working class whites who are extremely racist. So given that the racist fascist is to deeply immersed in racism to break free, does that mean we say fuck off to the working class? Or can they be saved?

[Nox]

Fascists today are idiots, go over to that-website-that-fascists-use (not sure if I'm allowed to mention it) and see them pretend to have any scientific basis by, for example, using words such as "aryan", "mongoloid" and "negroid", it is genuinely hilarious to see.

[Commissar Rykov]

Okay, I've known (sadly) quite a few fascists none of which were non-racist. Oh they might have claimed it, like the BNP does, but it is no more than a smokescreen, a smiling face. However I come across on a regular basis ordinary working class whites who are extremely racist. So given that the racist fascist is to deeply immersed in racism to break free, does that mean we say fuck off to the working class? Or can they be saved?
Thats the real question is how do you reach Working Class Fascists who are waist deep in racialism. The problem is that racialism has usually been ingrained since childhood and thus you are looking at a massive complex to deal with. I think it would take some serious study and work by Psychologists and Sociologists to help fix such problems. I believe they are probably fixable but the question is how much work will it take and what will the success rate be.

[Rainsborough]

Thats the real question is how do you reach Working Class Fascists who are waist deep in racialism. The problem is that racialism has usually been ingrained since childhood and thus you are looking at a massive complex to deal with. I think it would take some serious study and work by Psychologists and Sociologists to help fix such problems. I believe they are probably fixable but the question is how much work will it take and what will the success rate be.

Hard-line fascists yes but that is not the issue, I'm talking about the ordinary working class who have adopted a racist perspective, for instance the rank and file of the EDL, little more than working class, football yobbos who imagine they are part of some great crusade to restore England's green and pleasant land. To who politics is something that happens between the final whistle and the opening of the next beer can. Can they be turned, or are they beyond help?

[ColonelCossack]

I think we've got some ex-fascists on here...

[Commissar Rykov]

Hard-line fascists yes but that is not the issue, I'm talking about the ordinary working class who have adopted a racist perspective, for instance the rank and file of the EDL, little more than working class, football yobbos who imagine they are part of some great crusade to restore England's green and pleasant land. To who politics is something that happens between the final whistle and the opening of the next beer can. Can they be turned, or are they beyond help?
I think they could be turned as usually they are only supporting it because they believe their actual interests are being represented while not spending the time to figure out if that is true. If they are that haphazard with their political beliefs it is largely due to apathy and they just accept the Bourgeoisie fear mongering about minority groups. I think Racial Threat Theory from Criminology describes the situation quite well to paraphrase, "The more a minority group grows the harsher judicial measures become and more propaganda the Ruling Class puts out to keep said minorities under the thumb of the Ruling Class."

You see this a lot in the USA where people will bring up racial quotas and the like with the whole point of getting the White Working Class all riled up in order to divide the Proletariat amongst itself. I think you can combat the use of Racial Threat by using proper education alongside education on the power of Labor. I think the reality is those members of the Working Class have an inkling something is wrong the Bourgeoisie have just diverted it away from themselves and blamed it on their fellow Proles. Divide and conquer is still a rather effective strategy domestically.

[Comrade-Z]

This seems to me to be a very interesting question. In the interest of addressing this question, I will let all of you know that I was a very active anarchist member of this site up until about four years ago. Member of the CC and all that jazz. This was back in the days when Redstar2000 was still here, if any of you remember.

Anyways, it appeared to me, after 4 years of serious effort, that radical politics was going nowhere in the U.S. It appeared to me that historical materialism did not pay enough attention to personal psychology as a motivator of political thought and action. And considering that personal psychology was not perfectly rational, but instead was inevitably subject to the emotional influences of various myths and images, I became convinced that radical politics needed not just a coherent explanation of the interests of the working class on its side, but also an emotionally compelling myth that would strengthen people's egos to the same extent that, for instance, the myth of the Tea Party "little man" standing up to "Washington fatcats" boosted the egos of the Tea Party participants, despite the fact that most were not engaging in actions that furthered their objective interests.

So I drifted away from radical politics and experimented with other approaches towards changing U.S. society--especially approaches that operated more on the level of myth and psychology.

For a while I thought that psychedelic drugs, if evangelized widely enough, could perhaps provoke a significant shift in consciousness among the population concerning their ideas about capitalism and other issues. I am still sympathetic to this idea, but I recognize that it has serious limitations.

I have also been flirting with the idea of stealing fascist aesthetics for the purposes of radical politics. As far as I see it, I am still on the left, but it appears to me that fascism generally has more appealing myths and psychological hooks, so perhaps the left should appropriate some of those, where possible.

Here is a group that I envision trying to start up in my hometown:

The practical weekly activities of the group would revolve around getting together in uniforms and doing stuff like drilling, exercising, and hiking. The group would stress self-discipline, comradeship, and chivalrous nobility of character. Aesthetically, it would have touches of the Wanderfögel or Hitler Youth.

However, organizationally and politically there would be essential differences. The leader of the group each meeting would be chosen at random--basically, drawing straws from a hat. The stated idea would be to make sure everyone was practiced at being a leader, such that there were no weak links in the group or decisively strong links that, if broken, would shatter the whole group. Resiliency. For riskier, "operational" activities like hiking trips or rallies, the leader for that day would be elected. Furthermore, such leaders would be recallable at any point, so as to prevent abuses of power. Any member could raise an objection at any time, and as long as it was seconded by someone else, then objection would be considered. If a majority then quickly voted to recall the leader, the leader would be recalled. If the person was alone in raising the objection, the leader would be authorized to inflict a minor punishment on the person raising the apparently frivolous objection, such as having the person do 20 pushups or some menial but necessary task.

The group would allow members of all genders and ethnicities.

Sex would be encouraged, but not between fellow members of local groups, lest weird cliques form.

Occasional reasonable recreational drug use (particularly psychedelics and amphetamines) would also be encouraged as a way to test oneself with extreme states of mind, to come to know oneself at all levels of rationality and irrationality, as rites of passage, and in order to bond with other members socially.

Occasionally, there might be instances for the group to dress up in quasi-hippie völkisch regalia and re-enact some primal ritual. For African-Americans, that might mean dressing up as some mighty African warrior a la Shaka Zulu.

Politically, the group would be for direct democracy. That is, elected and recallable drafting committees drafting weekly slates of bills for the citizenry to vote on directly.

Economically, the group would be for something akin to anarcho-syndicalism--workplace democracy with coordination across industries through democratic trade unions.

Now, personally I think that this sort of group would combine the best of the anti-bourgeois political programmes and aesthetics of fascist and left groups. But assuming that you all conclude that this is really just fascism in disguise, your job now is to convince me to no longer be fascist. GO!

(You might start by trying to convince me that there is no social basis for such a group, and I would partly agree with you and partly disagree with you).

[Rainsborough]

I think we've got some ex-fascists on here...

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Is that the best comment you can apply to a serious question?

[Susurrus]

Here is a group that I envision trying to start up in my hometown:

The practical weekly activities of the group would revolve around getting together in uniforms and doing stuff like drilling, exercising, and hiking. The group would stress self-discipline, comradeship, and chivalrous nobility of character. Aesthetically, it would have touches of the Wanderfögel or Hitler Youth. [No, that's foolish. Why would we try to look like our enemies? If you just mean having a uniform, it would be better to have something small, like a symbol or pin or armband or hat or bandana that can be removed quickly and adapted to different situations.]


However, organizationally and politically there would be essential differences. The leader of the group each meeting would be chosen at random--basically, drawing straws from a hat. The stated idea would be to make sure everyone was practiced at being a leader, such that there were no weak links in the group or decisively strong links that, if broken, would shatter the whole group. Resiliency. For riskier, "operational" activities like hiking trips or rallies, the leader for that day would be elected. Furthermore, such leaders would be recallable at any point, so as to prevent abuses of power. Any member could raise an objection at any time, and as long as it was seconded by someone else, then objection would be considered. If a majority then quickly voted to recall the leader, the leader would be recalled. If the person was alone in raising the objection, the leader would be authorized to inflict a minor punishment on the person raising the apparently frivolous objection, such as having the person do 20 pushups or some menial but necessary task. [It should be the whole group to decide something like this.]

The group would allow members of all genders and ethnicities.

Sex would be encouraged, but not between fellow members of local groups, lest weird cliques form. [you cannot tell people to not have sex just because of something like this. Just tell them to not let it influence them in this way]

Occasional reasonable recreational drug use (particularly psychedelics and amphetamines) would also be encouraged as a way to test oneself with extreme states of mind, to come to know oneself at all levels of rationality and irrationality, as rites of passage, and in order to bond with other members socially. [Don't encourage it or discourage it, let people choose it individually.]

Occasionally, there might be instances for the group to dress up in quasi-hippie völkisch regalia and re-enact some primal ritual. For African-Americans, that might mean dressing up as some mighty African warrior a la Shaka Zulu. [Nationalism or traditionalism should not be encouraged in any way.]

Politically, the group would be for direct democracy. That is, elected and recallable drafting committees drafting weekly slates of bills for the citizenry to vote on directly.

Economically, the group would be for something akin to anarcho-syndicalism--workplace democracy with coordination across industries through democratic trade unions.


Eliminate the things in bold for the reasons in the brackets. Otherwise, I've had similar ideas, though not for the reason that we should imitate fascism, just that it's a good idea. I think there have been communist/anarchist groups similar to this in the past, and they worked well.

However, this is not the thread to discuss such things. PM me or make a new thread.

[Agnapostate]

It's seemed to me that the psychological motivation for the components of fascism that are based on ethnic supremacist doctrines (at least in the U.S., where fascism is a heterodox movement) is born of the desire to identify with a superior ingroup because of an individual inferiority complex.

Regarding Scumfront, the threads of the Youth section are probably the most interesting because of the so-called "adolescent angst" factor, and the fact that the young fascists' posts mainly consist of complaints that they are socially introverted and unpopular.

If these are the experiences of fascists' early lives, it provides interesting insights as to why they would hate African-Americans as an outgroup, for example, since they perceive them as more popular, athletic, successful with women, etc., than they are.

[tir1944]

Just curious,are there any cases of communists/left-wingers becoming fascists?

[Agnapostate]

Just curious,are there any cases of communists/left-wingers becoming fascists?

Mussolini himself, arguably.

[Commissar Rykov]

Mussolini himself, arguably.
Indeed, Mussolini and many early Fascists came from the Italian Socialist Party the break was over involvement in the First World War. Benito was named after a Mexican Socialist Revolutionary by his Left Wing Parents.

[blake 3:17]

My experience with younger fascists/Nazis is that they were pretty marginalized and older fascists took advantage of them. When their activities marginalized them further they tended to drop out.

"A large percentage of skinheads, especially in North America, are really hard-core alcoholics. It's too much to expect them to put fliers on cars, but they'll jump at the chance to buy beer.

There's a real irony in the fact that Hitler would have exterminated most of these guys as social deviants."

From an interview with George Burdi, former neo-Nazi and singer for Racial Holy War. Here's a link to the interview: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2001/fall/present-at-the-creation

Minor drift -- On an interesting side note, one of the major players in the creation of neo-Nazi groups in Canada during the 90s was agent of CSIS (Canada's main spy agency): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant_Bristow

[blake 3:17]

Just curious,are there any cases of communists/left-wingers becoming fascists?

Robert Michels. James Burnham?

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Oswald Mosley. Goebbels supposedly was a Marxist for a time.There are many other cases.

Speaking of the psychological attractions of fascism, Wilhelm Reich did interesting work in that regard.

[DarkPast]

Robert Michels. James Burnham?

Burnham became more of a hardline neoconservative than a fascist. Reagan awarded him the Presidential medal of freedom...

[Dimmu]

What i have noticed at least here in Europe is that people who join fascist organizations or some neo-nazi once are dreaming of restoring the image of a strong European man.

It has alot to do with masculinity or the lack of it.

[Comrade-Z]

It's seemed to me that the psychological motivation for the components of fascism that are based on ethnic supremacist doctrines (at least in the U.S., where fascism is a heterodox movement) is born of the desire to identify with a superior ingroup because of an individual inferiority complex.

Regarding Scumfront, the threads of the Youth section are probably the most interesting because of the so-called "adolescent angst" factor, and the fact that the young fascists' posts mainly consist of complaints that they are socially introverted and unpopular.

If these are the experiences of fascists' early lives, it provides interesting insights as to why they would hate African-Americans as an outgroup, for example, since they perceive them as more popular, athletic, successful with women, etc., than they are.

I think this hits the nail on the head. Just as the original allure of German Nazism was largely responding to the humiliation of the Treaty of Versailles and the French infringements of sovereignty during the '20s, I think modern neo-Nazis are responding to some perceived humiliation or unpopularity or angst.

I think the appeal of fascist aesthetics to me personally is based on largely the same basis. I basically have practically no friends, and it irritates me to see other people who are socially successful and who flit through life without any sense of gravitas, as if life comes easy for them (which it probably does), rather than being some epic struggle (which it feels like for me). It would not surprise me to find some correlation between fascist attitudes and psychological malfunctions such as depression or anti-social personalities.

That said, I think these same things can motivate people to go in a revolutionary leftist direction too. At least, that's the way it was with me at first. In high school I felt this same unpopularity and angst, especially whenever I would interact with rich, preppy "Southside" kids who went to nice schools and thought that they were the shit. I felt humiliated along class lines, and so you could say I became a "working-class supremacist." I wanted the working class to rule, partially in order to benefit me materially, but more importantly in order to wipe that smug look off of those preppy Southsiders. So I became involved in anarchism.

I think where you get radical leftists switching to extreme reactionaries is where radical leftism lets them down in terms of bringing about that achievement of supremacy, and thus that achievement of psychological redemption. So they look for another vehicle for advancing this aim. Some might "find God" and become all "holier-than-thou" or seek to make their religious doctrine the supreme law of the land, which is one alternative way of addressing this psychological need. Fascism is another.

Now, I was too involved in radical leftism and learned too much to ever take religious fundamentalism or fascism seriously in terms of the assertions those doctrines tend to make about the way the world and reality in general work. I can't forget all the intellectual lessons I encountered as a side effect of my initially psychologically-motivated affiliation with the left. I am, fortunately, inoculated against taking any idea such as an "Aryan race" seriously.

That said, I feel very much drawn to some religious and fascist aesthetics for the same reason that I would probably be drawn to religious and fascist politics at this point (considering that I feel that the Left has failed as a vehicle for my psychological redemption, and doesn't look to be going anywhere in the near term, so might as well search for another strategy...), except for the fact that the political assertions of religions or fascism can be more easily intellectually brushed aside than the aesthetics of them can. Certainly, religious or fascist aesthetics often happen to be associated with religious or fascist politics...but so do leftist aesthetics from time to time, when religions or fascists see the benefit in trying to co-opt such leftist aesthetics for their own uses. Therefore, it will take more evidence to convince me that religious or fascist aesthetics (not ideas or assertions, but aesthetics) cannot be co-opted by the Left in a similar way.


What i have noticed at least here in Europe is that people who join fascist organizations or some neo-nazi once are dreaming of restoring the image of a strong European man.

It has alot to do with masculinity or the lack of it.

I think this also hits the nail on the head.

Now, you can either argue that it is an illegitimate desire for men to feel like men, and that we need to somehow drive this feeling out of men, or you can argue that we need to give men a way of meeting this psychological desire in a way that does not compromise gender equality or lead to fascism.

You see a fair bit of hyper-masculine aesthetics in leftist propaganda...not so much in New-Left propaganda, but moreso in Old Left propaganda:
http://www.allposters.com/IMAGES/VAS/0000-4234-4.jpg

You see even more hyper-masculine aesthetics in fascist propaganda:
http://www.gallagher.com/ww2/images/Nazi_Progaganda_Poster_22_139.jpg

I think one problem is, ever since the New-Left pretty much abandoned hyper-masculine aesthetics, they've abandoned the field entirely to the fascists.

Let me ask you: we have "National Socialist Black Metal"...where is the communist metal?

Is it impossible to craft affirmations of masculinity that aren't sexist? Is masculinity inherently sexist? Do we just need to somehow drive this out of our psychology? Or do we need to find a way to address it that does not compromise the principle of gender equality?

I think the latter is indeed quite possible...one example of which you can find in the movie "Avatar." Now, regardless of what you think about the movie in general, you have to admit that it depicts a masculine main character who is, nevertheless, an equal of his strong female counterpart.
http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/9300000/Avatar-avatar-movie-9388255-2560-1600.jpg
Such relationships and such aesthetics are not impossible, I would assert.

[blake 3:17]

I think this hits the nail on the head. Just as the original allure of German Nazism was largely responding to the humiliation of the Treaty of Versailles and the French infringements of sovereignty during the '20s, I think modern neo-Nazis are responding to some perceived humiliation or unpopularity or angst.

I think the appeal of fascist aesthetics to me personally is based on largely the same basis.

Walter Benjamin understood fascism as an aesthetic project. The documentary The Architecture of Doom backs this as an analysis of Hitlerism.

[ColonelCossack]

I think we've got some ex-fascists on here...

It was a serious answer! I was saying that, since we've got some ex-fascists on here, you'll be able to ask them in person. I wouldn't know about why fascists change, because I've never been one- and it's pretty difficult to be able to understand fascism (i.e. see any illusory appeal it may have), without actually being one.

I wasn't trying to take the piss out of you, man. :lol:

[robbo203]

Good luck with that. Trying to make a fascist see hir own beliefs for what they are is nigh impossible.

Not to sure about that. I personally know of an individual who radically shifted his allegiance from supporting the National Front in the UK to revolutionary socialism. It can happen. The point is not to see facists as some kind of undifferentiated monolith. As with any collection of individuals, there is a spectrum. Some fascists are more amenable to rational persuasion than others...