Need HELP...

[Com. Bluish Communist]

How to handle a Religious or very religious, specially a Muslim (Islam) following person???:confused: Please, also give drawbacks of being religious...



Actually most of my friend circle is Muslim (Islam) followers and when ever i put secularism and communist thoughts infornt of them they suddenly bring their religion. That it is mention in Khuran about etc, etc... I want them to think secular... :hammersickle:

[Le Rouge]

Well you could just start by saying that they are basing their arguments on a 1400 years old book. Make them try to use their logic instead of religion. Religion don't make people think rationally.

[The Douche]

There is nothing inherently wrong with being religious. I know religious people who are not reactionaries.

The important thing is not to be an atheist, but to be a socialist...

[Die Rote Fahne]

Take the dialectical materialist approach to debating religion.

[Commissar Rykov]

It seems you are attacking from ridicolous angle to get them interested. All you are going to do is keep repeating the same thing until they stop talking to you. I think cmoney hit the nail on the head you should be focusing on socialist arguments not religious debate. I don't even know why religion would even come up unless you were just going on an all out offensive. I know when I discuss politics with people I don't nor have I had religion brought up except for fundamentalists but then I just stop talking to that lot.

[Tommy4ever]

There is no real point in trying to 'de-convert' people. You can be a perfectly good Marxist and religious at the same time (although it might be more difficult). Focus all critisism of faiths on what we can debate on earth - ie the established Churches (or the Muslim equalivalent - don't know the right word). Basically a Marxist should take an anti-clerical rather than anti-theist approach. Being anti-clerical is very important as established religious institutions are invariably on the other side in class struggle, people's faith can drive them either way. I know Christianity is packed with stuff that can be used to justify a far left position, I've heard Islam has a strong egalitarian current - so push on that.

If you directly attack someone's religion, even if it is ridiculous, they will become defensive and will shut out any otherwise strong arguments. If you take at the very least a neutral approach to their actual faith and supernatural stuff (that means ignore it as best you can) then arguments about religion might remain open.

[danyboy27]

How to handle a Religious or very religious, specially a Muslim (Islam) following person???:confused: Please, also give drawbacks of being religious...



Actually most of my friend circle is Muslim (Islam) followers and when ever i put secularism and communist thoughts infornt of them they suddenly bring their religion. That it is mention in Khuran about etc, etc... I want them to think secular... :hammersickle:

I once saw a video on a guy on youtube explaining how he was able to ''sell'' the idea of secularism to his christian family by explaining to them that such a system would protect their faith against the other faith.

when a governements start allowing religious people to put their religions in politics, everybody from every religions will start putting their own stuff in laws too, that will create tensions and eventually useless bloodshed, risks for muslim and christian to kill eachother over who will control what.

Separating religions from politics (secularism) is the best course of action to preserve the faith, protect the fallowers against persecutions, civil wars and endless bloodshed.

and for the communist thing, well i dont know the koran or the bible verry well, but i am pretty sure if you are patient you could dig something out of these book backing communism or socialism. There are just so much room for interpretations in religious texts, you could basically make them tell almost everything, Kings and religous leaders used those to back their powers for hundred, thousand of years, and it worked precisely beccause they could make them tell everything they wanted to.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

How to handle a Religious or very religious, specially a Muslim (Islam) following person???:confused: Please, also give drawbacks of being religious...



Actually most of my friend circle is Muslim (Islam) followers and when ever i put secularism and communist thoughts infornt of them they suddenly bring their religion. That it is mention in Khuran about etc, etc... I want them to think secular... :hammersickle:

What specifically are you saying and how are they responding? Also, it's Qur'an not Khuran.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Also, it's Qur'an not Khuran.


and Qadhaffi is spelled Khazaffi, Kadaffi, Kadhafi, Qadaffi, etc.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

and Qadhaffi is spelled Khazaffi, Kadaffi, Kadhafi, Qadaffi, etc.

Any Muslim(a) that I know or have spoken to generally prefers the transliteration of Qur'an as opposed to Koran/Khuran is why I say this but this is beside the point.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Any Muslim(a) that I know or have spoken to generally prefers the transliteration of Qur'an as opposed to Koran/Khuran is why I say this but this is beside the point.
yeah, its doesnt really matter.

[Com. Bluish Communist]

My revolutionary Red Salute to all respected Comrades...
Thanks for your reply's...
Qur'an, thanks for getting me correct Comrade...
Any ways, comrades what ever you all helped me its really feeling good to me, but still I am not very much satisfied.
I also use to tell them about Socialism but they tell me that their religion (Islam) speaks the same what socialism speaks...
The thing is that they don't want to be Secular. Actually, the situation is like, for example Someone tells you that accept Islam then how you will handle him???
@ Le Rouge, Comrade you got me a good point I was wandering for some thing like this... Thanks... @ danyboy25, Thanks comrade...

[Yugo45]

Well you could just start by saying that they are basing their arguments on a 1400 years old book. Make them try to use their logic instead of religion. Religion don't make people think rationally.

And that's exactly why that isn't the best thing to tell them.

It's a good argument. But if you tell that to someone religious they will just rage at you.

[Rooster]

You could just, you know, lay bare to them the faults of capitalism and tell them that it's not always been a historical fact and stuff. Their religion doesn't really matter.

[DarkPast]

Yeah, I'm with those who say that you shouldn't attack their religious beliefs; it leads nowhere. Instead, try to find some things you agree on.

For example, the following are the words of Franklin Spencer Spalding, a Christian bishop, but they can easily be adapted for Muslims:

The Christian Church exists for the sole purpose of saving the human race. So far she has failed, but I think that Socialism shows her how she may succeed. It insists that men cannot be made right until the material conditions be made right. Although man cannot live by bread alone, he must have bread. Therefore the Church must destroy a system of society which inevitably creates and perpetuates unequal and unfair conditions of life. These unequal and unfair conditions have been created by competition. Therefore competition must cease and cooperation take its place.

Also, there's the good old Dalai Lama quote:

Of all the modern economic theories, the economic system of Marxism is founded on moral principles, while capitalism is concerned only with gain and profitability.

[Red Future]

Try talking about the views of Malcolm X.He is well regarded in most Islamic Circles

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

What specifically are you saying and how are they responding? Also, it's Qur'an not Khuran.
it can be spelled both ways

and being religious is ok with being communist

[Commissar Rykov]

My revolutionary Red Salute to all respected Comrades...
Thanks for your reply's...
Qur'an, thanks for getting me correct Comrade...
Any ways, comrades what ever you all helped me its really feeling good to me, but still I am not very much satisfied.
I also use to tell them about Socialism but they tell me that their religion (Islam) speaks the same what socialism speaks...
The thing is that they don't want to be Secular. Actually, the situation is like, for example Someone tells you that accept Islam then how you will handle him???
@ Le Rouge, Comrade you got me a good point I was wandering for some thing like this... Thanks... @ danyboy25, Thanks comrade...
Wait they are saying they see common themes amongst Islam and Socialism and you are attacking them for it? Why? That seems utterly backwards. That they are relating it to their religion means that is their only likely barometer for determining how they feel about something.

[Rafiq]

Don't waste your time.

They will find out on their own.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

My revolutionary Red Salute to all respected Comrades...
Thanks for your reply's...
Qur'an, thanks for getting me correct Comrade...
Any ways, comrades what ever you all helped me its really feeling good to me, but still I am not very much satisfied.
I also use to tell them about Socialism but they tell me that their religion (Islam) speaks the same what socialism speaks...
The thing is that they don't want to be Secular. Actually, the situation is like, for example Someone tells you that accept Islam then how you will handle him???
@ Le Rouge, Comrade you got me a good point I was wandering for some thing like this... Thanks... @ danyboy25, Thanks comrade...

I'm not sure what the issue here is.

Speaking as a Muslim, no, I do not and would not want to give up my religion, ever, I love Islam, I was born a Muslim, I will probably die one, it makes sense to me and my own worldview. This being said, it's ultimately irrelevant in terms of Socialism and Socialist praxis in so much as it doesn't matter what your religion is. What does matter however is your interpretation of your religion of choice and what you feel the scope of said religion should be in the secular world, that's were it would get tricky talking to some bros but not really.

[Judicator]

Put him on an airplane with some box cutters.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Put him on an airplane with some box cutters.

Kill the kuffar wherever you find them? But no, in all do seriousness, fuck you.

[Sentinel]

The question of dealing with religion is not an easy one for Marxists. I used to personally hold a very militantly anti-theist position in the past, but have since become more of a orthodox marxist and reconsidered my views somewhat. Let me explain.

I still consider religion a negative force in society in the majority of cases, but nowadays I would also agree with the comrades that point out that attacking the religion of individuals directly is pointless and counterproductive to the struggle.

However, we must never compromise on our own principles about equality for all. This means that we must advocate strict rules and intervention of society against all kinds of discrimination such as sexism and homophobia regardless if it's based on religious grounds or not.

Moreover we must indeed maintain a totally secular society which doesn't actively support organised religion or grant it a propaganda platform on the people's expense, and which guarantees the same rights for all such as scientific education, healthcare etc.

As long as people are willing to accept this I can't see any reason why we couldn't fight side by side with them. I'm convinced that these measures are be enough to make religion wither away by itself in a relatively short time, a generation or two at most.

Therefore there is no need to try to change people's beliefs 'by force'.

[ClearlyChrist]

Trying To Convert A Christian Is Futile. We Are Born, And Are Indoctrinated, And Led Towards Religion By Default. One Who Questions This, Will Become An Athiest. Conversion Of Degenarate Fundamenalist Religion Enthusiasts Is A Waste Of Time.

[Zealot]

Telling our comrade not to bother attacking the religion isn't very good advice, in my opinion, because the heart of the matter is that these muslims are not secular BASED ON their religious beliefs. Islam is inherently theocratic in nature, believing that humanity cannot decide their own laws but only god can. The struggle here is trying to convince them of an interpretation of the Quran that supports secularism or getting them to agree that theocratic governments would be terrible. I would suggest reading up on the arguments for secularism

[tir1944]

With care...

[ComradeMan]

Unless your friend is imposing some kind of social "dhimmi" on you or trying to convert you against your will, what's the problem? I have friends (and family) of different religions and some of no religion at all- it's never been an issue.