Kommune election in Norway

[RGacky3]

Any one in Norway or Europe Following this?

THe Socialist left Lost a ton, some say its because they generally just don't do well in local elections (they're policies are more radical), others because they lost the more radical socialists to the Red party due to them being in power and the more moderate socialists to the labor party.

As much problems as I have with the Socialist left they are the only ones that proposed re structuring the corporate system, even for local policies they want to revamp public transport and give more kindergarden support and spread it, and so on.

The Labor party is up, some people say its because of the attack and people are supporting them in solidarity.

The Progress party took a beating, for probably a similar reason.

Anyway, anyone in norway or around have any opinions?

[Smyg]

It's good to see the Progress going down a bit, I can only hope the Sweden "Democrats" will do the same over here.

[RGacky3]

A lot of people are saying that they are doing bad because they are in govenrment with labor, which drives away the radical socialists (who don't like labors soft line).

Again my advice, as always, is take a firm line on old-school socialist ideals, working class empowerment, corporate restructuring to include worker democracy, more socialization of the economy and reversal of privitizations, thats why people supported the SV in the past and thats why they will support them in the future, not by pissing around the edges.

[eyedrop]

Again my advice, as always, is take a firm line on old-school socialist ideals, working class empowerment, corporate restructuring to include worker democracy, more socialization of the economy and reversal of privitizations, thats why people supported the SV in the past and thats why they will support them in the future, not by pissing around the edges.
Red now fills much the same position as SV once did and it could easily end up following a similar path.

As being determines consciousness can one be surprised when a hierarchical party goes toward the center as it's leadership has been in parliament a few years. The rank'n file of SV isn't that bad though, and consequently local politics is better.

[Zukunftsmusik]

Yes, I too find SV and Rødt (Red) more and more similar. But I have most sympathies for the latter, with SV in government unable to do anything with the war in Afghanistan f.x. It was also quite embarrassing to see the SV-leader as minister of finance, telling the Norwegian people to buy more to get the economy going. It's sad to see a party calling themselves socialists and environmental friendly, acting like any other minister of finance would.

But then again, now there's a local election, and you can't blame local politicians in a certain party for what their own party do in government. In Oslo, the most important and urgent thing is to get rid of the conservative/liberalist local government. Not only do they have unsocial politics, they are also completely incompetent. They have spent several millions on building a nursing home in Spain. That nursing home was never built. They have also spent millions (or was it billions?) on a new ticket system for collective transport, that's not working properly. And the list goes on.

[eyedrop]

Keep in mind that AP was the same back in the days. (Except much more radical/mass organisational)

Yeah, I threw a sort of Pascal's wager vote to Red. I'm still not convinced that which parties are in power have much of an impact on social progress, but it doesn't hurt to vote incase I'm wrong.

[Zukunftsmusik]

Keep in mind that AP was the same back in the days. (Except much more radical/mass organisational)

Yeah, I threw a sort of Pascal's wager vote to Red. I'm still not convinced that which parties are in power have much of an impact on social progress, but it doesn't hurt to vote incase I'm wrong.

The mass organisation is what the smaller socialist parties are missing. The prejudices about SV being a party for a small PhD-elite has some roots in the truth.

Well, I don't know what a Pascal's wager vote is, but at least an Ap/SV local government, with support from Rødt and perhaps the Greens (my bet is that they'll get one seat in Oslo), would be better than the situation today.

[eyedrop]

The mass organisation is what the smaller socialist parties are missing. The prejudices about SV being a party for a small PhD-elite has some roots in the truth.Yeah, Ap had some syndicalist currents in it that at least kept the leadership somewhat honest.


Well, I don't know what a Pascal's wager vote is, but at least an Ap/SV local government, with support from Rødt and perhaps the Greens (my bet is that they'll get one seat in Oslo), would be better than the situation today.
Pascal wager is the wager that it's safer to believe in God than not, since the punishment for not-believing wrongly is hell, and believing wrongly is nothing.

I wouldn't be all that surprised if they would continue privatizing the hospitals, and blue coalitions can not privatize. Which parties is in power is only a part of the picture

[RGacky3]

Red now fills much the same position as SV once did and it could easily end up following a similar path.

As being determines consciousness can one be surprised when a hierarchical party goes toward the center as it's leadership has been in parliament a few years. The rank'n file of SV isn't that bad though, and consequently local politics is better.

You know I don't blame the SV to much, they are a minority in government and can't really do that much.


They have spent several millions on building a nursing home in Spain. That nursing home was never built. They have also spent millions (or was it billions?) on a new ticket system for collective transport, that's not working properly. And the list goes on.

THe collective transport ticket system is a mess, they basically just rely 100% on the ticket vakt guys.


Keep in mind that AP was the same back in the days. (Except much more radical/mass organisational)

Yeah, I threw a sort of Pascal's wager vote to Red. I'm still not convinced that which parties are in power have much of an impact on social progress, but it doesn't hurt to vote incase I'm wrong.

Well having a left party in power prevents the right wing/liberals at least.


The mass organisation is what the smaller socialist parties are missing. The prejudices about SV being a party for a small PhD-elite has some roots in the truth.

Well, I don't know what a Pascal's wager vote is, but at least an Ap/SV local government, with support from Rødt and perhaps the Greens (my bet is that they'll get one seat in Oslo), would be better than the situation today.

Yeah I don't know, the SV imo have pretty good policies, the thing is the AP gets all the union support so its seen as more of the "workers" party whereas SV is more the idealist socialist party.

I personally think SV has made the mistake of taking a new-left line, taking on new-feminism and more social issues, rather than sticking to the core of socialism, workers democracy, social economies and so on.

Obviously them being in government is a bit embarrasing, since they are besically beholdant to the Ap now, but I don't hold that against them perse.


Yeah, Ap had some syndicalist currents in it that at least kept the leadership somewhat honest.


Basically they get all their money from Lo, which keeps them as a "workers party."

I say if SV seriously pushes Co-Determination and more productive national indsutry, I think they'll do a lot better.


I wouldn't be all that surprised if they would continue privatizing the hospitals, and blue coalitions can not privatize. Which parties is in power is only a part of the picture

The problem with Ap is they juts want to stop privitization, they should be pulling the other direction.

[Demogorgon]

What policy concessions have the Socialist left received as part of the coalition out of interest?

[Bud Struggle]

So we are saying: elections have taken the place of Revolution?

[eyedrop]

What policy concessions have the Socialist left received as part of the coalition out of interest?

It was 6 years ago and I didn't pay all that much attention to SV policies then. It would have been okay if they hadn't been able to push their policies trough it's just that they have stopped criticizing from the left to maintain unity. It's hard to seperate them from AP at this time.

Anti-war policy Afganistan.

Experiment with 6 hour day.

Sending out criminal "foreigners."

Abolish poverty.

Giving less tax reduction for the rich than a last administration promised

New oil drilling.

Gas powerplant

Collective transport.

Heading out to an election-thingie with beers.

[Smyg]

Abolish poverty? They're very realistic about their abilities, I see.

[Bud Struggle]

Really and truly: Norway is as much a country as Palm Beach County is a country. A bunch of dimpled blondes in turtlenecks pretending they have actual social and economic problems.

[rednordman]

Really and truly: Norway is as much a country as Palm Beach County is a country. A bunch of dimpled blondes in turtlenecks pretending they have actual social and economic problems.Oh that's harsh, even if there is maybe a sprinkling of truth in it. But you have to remember something here, unlike PBC, it was mainly leftist policies that have made it one of the best countries to live in.

In fact as far as I see it, the more capitalist it has become in recent years, the more problems it is seeing. The sad thing is that they all seem to blame it on the Ap, even though it was the Ap who allowed people make it as wealthy country to begin with.

One thing with Norway compared with the rest of the west is in the past they almost took for granted a very very low unemployment rate. Now there has been more privatisation and liberalisation within the economy, people are starting to notice that the level of unemployment is rising, along with the levels of stress associated with increase competition, and less job security.

I may be wrong on this but I go there every year (usually twice) and this is strongly the impression that I get. The real problem is that instead of seeing this for what it is, they do the knee-jerk thing of blaming immigration and things like that. That mainly explains the rise of the Right-wing populist Progress party anyhow.

[RGacky3]

Really and truly

Not gonna make your argument stronger :laugh:.


Norway is as much a country as Palm Beach County is a country. A bunch of dimpled blondes in turtlenecks pretending they have actual social and economic problems.

I'm pretty sure most people here in Norway know they live in one of the best countries economically speaking in the world.



So we are saying: elections have taken the place of Revolution?


We are saying we are talking about the kommune elections in Norway, a discussion you obviously have no interst in having, so back to chatter with you.


Abolish poverty? They're very realistic about their abilities, I see.

In Norway poverty is sooo minimal its actually very realistic.


Experiment with 6 hour day.


would totally be in favor of that, and if things like that are pushed I think they'll get support.

[RGacky3]

The sad thing is that they all seem to blame it on the Ap, even though it was the Ap who allowed people make it as wealthy country to begin with.


That was a different Ap, back then the Ap was a real workers party, back when being a workers party meant something.

They still are somewhat, due to labor pressure but they are much softer now.

[Demogorgon]

I've seen some results but the English language press isn't exactly being detailed. Are there detailed results yet? How did Red do?

[RGacky3]

THe "Socialist" parties got 43.7 and the "bourgouis" (I love how the Norwegian press is honest and calls them that) parties got 56.3.

Red got about 1.5%, which is pretty normal, SV got only 4.1% which is discraceful, they should have been much much higher, Ap got 31.7 and SP% (the center party is part of the red-green government) got 6.8, now the only good news is that the right wing FRP also dropped to 11.4, which is plus, but the winners is are the conservatives with 28% and the liberals with 6.3, the christian party got 5.6 (I think there has been talk of them joining the red-green government, and I right there?)

I think the socialist parties will do much better in the national election though, although traditionally the far left does better in local elections, so I don't know what happened.

[Smyg]

It's not just Norwegian press, it's all of Scandinavian society.

[Zukunftsmusik]

Not gonna make your argument stronger :laugh:.
In Norway poverty is sooo minimal its actually very realistic.


Eh? Don't agree with you there. Reduce it, yes, abolish it? Nope.

SV lost many votes to Ap. Just as the Progressive party lost many votes to the Conservatives. I think that's the main explanation for why SV (and Frp (progressive)) became so small. That, and the fact that they have lost most of their clear "radical" profile while sitting in government.

[Smyg]

Poverty will always be there, reformist or not. :rolleyes:

Even if the conservatives won a lot, I'm so fucking happy for the "Progress" Party's loses. Nationalist, reactionary, racist bastards...

[eyedrop]

SV lost many votes to Ap. Just as the Progressive party lost many votes to the Conservatives. I think that's the main explanation for why SV (and Frp (progressive)) became so small. That, and the fact that they have lost most of their clear "radical" profile while sitting in government.

That they lost many votes to AP isn't an explanation of why, it's just of where the votes went.

Winning the election in 2005 on radical promises, and then stop paying it even lip-service once in government have lead to their decline. Radical workers have no reason to vote for them anymore, they don't even manage to shift the public debate to the left anymore.

Abolishing poverty isn't impossible, it only takes a pittance of the money they threw away to financial stimuli during the financial crisis in increased welfare for the lowest groups. Or more equalized income = no poverty.

It does depend on what the definition of poverty is though, if we go by the 0.5 of the median household income it was at 3.2 percent in 2001 (or 2.3 if looked at at a 3-year basis). It hardly sounds impossible to me

Source (http://www.ssb.no/magasinet/slik_lever_vi/art-2005-06-16-01.html)

[Zukunftsmusik]

That they lost many votes to AP isn't an explanation of why, it's just of where the votes went.

Hm well yeah.



Winning the election in 2005 on radical promises, and then stop paying it even lip-service once in government have lead to their decline. Radical workers have no reason to vote for them anymore, they don't even manage to shift the public debate to the left anymore.

That sounds more like an explanation. And I agree.



Abolishing poverty isn't impossible, it only takes a pittance of the money they threw away to financial stimuli during the financial crisis in increased welfare for the lowest groups. Or more equalized income = no poverty.

You really think it's possible to abolish poverty within a capitalistic system? It would at least take more than more equalised income. What about homeless, or homeless drug addicts, roma beggars etc? And as far as I know the difference in income has increased in Norway, even with SV in government.

[eyedrop]

You really think it's possible to abolish poverty within a capitalistic system? It would at least take more than more equalised income. What about homeless, or homeless drug addicts, roma beggars etc? And as far as I know the difference in income has increased in Norway, even with SV in government.
Yes, it has increased. Election promises aren't enacted policies, and officially they stopped caring about it in 2009. Registered citizens has incomes that can be raised, even if it's welfare income.

[Chris]

Well, this has been quite a good election for NKP (Norges Kommunistiske Parti/The Communist Party of Norway). We got 1204 votes (previous election we got 697, so we increased our total voting share by 78.3%). This is pretty damn historical for us, since in the last 60 years we have nearly only gotten less votes than in the preceding election (exceptions being when we run in more areas, which we didn't now).

More importantly, we have seen an increase in membership applications (roughly 16 in the last 2 weeks for the youth organisation, don't know the numbers for the Communist Party although from what I've heard they have seen an even larger number of applicants in the two last weeks of the elections campaign).

And we're creating a local cell of the Communist Party in my local town this november, due to membership increase (when I joined 2 years ago, there was a single other member. Now we're seven, if the two recent applications pass through).

[RGacky3]

You really think it's possible to abolish poverty within a capitalistic system? It would at least take more than more equalised income. What about homeless, or homeless drug addicts, roma beggars etc? And as far as I know the difference in income has increased in Norway, even with SV in government.

Your not gonna get rid of drug addicts or travelers in poverty, but theres nothing you can do about that.

But other than those groups, especially in Norway, its totally possible to abolish poverty, I hav'nt see any poverty here really.

Keep in mind the election turnout was relatively low, and its almost universally true that low election turnouts benefit right wing parties and bourgeouis parties.


It's not just Norwegian press, it's all of Scandinavian society.

Its just suprising, coming from the United States, where language in the press is very very regulated and missleading, to read honest language about economics and politics.

[Smyg]

Surprised me too a lot when I first realised what the English/international version of borgare was. :D

The election turnout is always bad when the election isn't also for the parliament, in my experience. In Sweden, we normally do the municipal, county and parliament elections at the same time. Last year, the result for the Västra Götaland (where I happen to be) county was fucked up, so they had to redo the election this may. The election turnout ended up being 40% and downwards in essentially every part of the county, as opposed to the really high 'main' election percentage.

[eyedrop]

The election turnout is always bad when the election isn't also for the parliament, in my experience. In Sweden, we normally do the municipal, county and parliament elections at the same time. Last year, the result for the Västra Götaland (where I happen to be) county was fucked up, so they had to redo the election this may. The election turnout ended up being 40% and downwards in essentially every part of the county, as opposed to the really high 'main' election percentage.
I'm guessing the low voter turnout has to do with local government losing more and more power to central government?

[RGacky3]

Its good to see some of the leadership of the SV talking about getting back to their roots of opposing Capitalism, having a viable critique and alternatives of it, and unconditionally opposing war.

Imo they should stay in the coalition but stop being the slightly left workers party and act like the SV and be about action rather than just talk.

[Zukunftsmusik]

eyedrop

Yes, it has increased. Election promises aren't enacted policies, and officially they stopped caring about it in 2009. Registered citizens has incomes that can be raised, even if it's welfare income.

You got me.


Your not gonna get rid of drug addicts or travelers in poverty, but theres nothing you can do about that.

But other than those groups, especially in Norway, its totally possible to abolish poverty, I hav'nt see any poverty here really.


Poverty in Norway is of course relative. People aren't starving to death. But to say that you haven't seen any poverty in Norway, well, I can't say anything against it, you might actually not have seen it, but poverty exists, "even in Norway".

Wait, there's nothing to do with drug addicts? Come again?

[Smyg]

I'm guessing the low voter turnout has to do with local government losing more and more power to central government?

I don't know about Norway, but here in Sweden it was just "meh, county election. Not important." I'm guessing that local elections simply don't attract as much attention and interest from the general public as parliament elections.

[RGacky3]

Wait, there's nothing to do with drug addicts? Come again?

Other than treatment and other help ... Drug addiction is'nt something you can fix with economic policy persay, nor is it directly caused by economic policy.

[RGacky3]

It seams like an argument now in the SV is how to move forward, some say they should get back to being a propert socialist party focusing on industrial policy, working class politics and socialization, bring back the radical working class vote, whereas another one says they should try be more of a green party and hopefully steal some of the bourgeois voters.

The latter is stupid, the SV has always been credible on the enviroment, but they still lost out, bourgeois voters arn't gonna vote SV even if they are better on the enviroment than ther bourgeois parties, the SV lost out because they lost focus on what got them their gains in the first place and what propelled them into governance, working class, socialist politics, if your not a principled solid socialist party, why the hell would socialists vote for you? And whos' gonna vote for the socialits party other than socialists?

People voting for bourgeois parties arn't doing so based on the enviroment. Even people on the fence arn't gonna vote for a socialist party unless the socialist party has a solid principled platform and can argue it well, they arn't gonna vote for a party trying to pander to everyone all the time, a party with no principles.

Sv trying to appeal to liberal voters based on liberal policies is a fools errand, Sv needs to appeal to the people that got them there in the first place. I obviously hope the Audun Lysbakken message wins and Sv goes back to being a solid socialist workers party.

BTW, doing that won't only get you voters from the Ap and dissaffected working class people, you'll also get some probably from Frp, who voted Frp just because of the simple (yet stupid) fix and the loud platform they have, you might also get some from the Liberal party. Your not gonna get anyone by trying to be a green socialist party.

[Kosakk]

Imo, I'd say SV is too academic/middle-class centered. I was a member of SU, but left for some time ago. I grew tired of the focus on environmentalism.
Nothing wrong about it, but what about worker's rights?

And I get the impression most people vote for them to push Labour more to the left, but that doesn't work when Labour can run over SV anytime.

I'm now a member of Rødt (Red Party), which I feel has a greater focus on
the working class. Cause sometimes it feels like SV has forgotten about us.
Labour has left us a long time ago.

[El Louton]

At least a left leaning party did better than the right.

[Bud Struggle]

We are saying we are talking about the kommune elections in Norway, a discussion you obviously have no interst in having, so back to chatter with you.


Norway has about the same population as Puerto Rico. It's a "botuque nation." Cutsie and all of that--but hardly a real independant economy of the world.

Norway has the same per capita income as uber Capitalist Singapore (with the same amount of people) and just a bit more than than the USA with 100 times more people.

It may be a nice country, but it's hardly a "real" country. Or lets put it this way-- it's no more a "country" than Singapore.

Check out the list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

[RGacky3]

Norway has about the same population as Puerto Rico. It's a "botuque nation." Cutsie and all of that--but hardly a real independant economy of the world.


Actually it exports about double of what it imports, it does'nt have a deficit, and your right, it has the same per capita income as singapore (which btw all the land belongs to the state), but it has MUCH better living standards and MUCH less poverty and MUCH better conditions for working people, basically its just much better. Both Norway and Singapore are real countries.

Anyway, whatever condesending (AMERICA #1 no matter what) bullshit you have to say that has not got anything to do with the kommune election in Norway take it somewhere else.

[eyedrop]

http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/816/816231/8162313/jpg/active/503x.jpg

I think this map is quite telling in that the red-green isn't well-to-do academics parties. West-side Oslo is the rich part of town and almost entirely blue, and opposite.

And since Norways economy isn't based on being a tax-haven/rich people retreat Bud's comments about it being a small country makes no sense.

[RGacky3]

(why is Osteras in the west and Vestli in the east/ No Norwegian has had an answer so far).

Norway does'nt have a class system like the US (concrete and based entirely on wealth and easily distinguishabe), its kind of more historic, people for example living on the east may have a working class background and even have a working class accent, yet make more money than some guy in Frogner, for example you could be an Oil Rig worker and make better money than a guy in corporate sales or a manager, and voting kind of goes the same way, Trondhiem, which is traditionally a very working class city, generally votes for the socialist parties.

I don't think anyone argues that Red and Ap are academic parties, Ap is definately a working class based party (close link with Lo for example), Sv is accused more of that, I don't know enough about them to know.

[eyedrop]

(why is Osteras in the west and Vestli in the east/ No Norwegian has had an answer so far). No idea, I get lost every time I'm in Oslo though.


Norway does'nt have a class system like the US (concrete and based entirely on wealth and easily distinguishabe), its kind of more historic, people for example living on the east may have a working class background and even have a working class accent, yet make more money than some guy in Frogner, for example you could be an Oil Rig worker and make better money than a guy in corporate sales or a manager, and voting kind of goes the same way, Trondhiem, which is traditionally a very working class city, generally votes for the socialist parties.Or an oil worker has different class interest than a manager even if he makes more money. In this case a relation to work based class analysis has more explanatory power than an income based one.


I don't think anyone argues that Red and Ap are academic parties, Ap is definately a working class based party (close link with Lo for example), Sv is accused more of that, I don't know enough about them to know.I got nothing to say.

[RGacky3]

Or an oil worker has different class interest than a manager even if he makes more money. In this case a relation to work based class analysis has more explanatory power than an income based one.


Absolutely, Im just pointing out the difference between class in Norway for example and the US.


I got nothing to say.

I'm not saying that Ap is a working class party, I'm saying its percieved as such.

[eyedrop]

Absolutely, Im just pointing out the difference between class in Norway for example and the US. So you're that in the US a manager will basically always make more that a worker so there a income/wealth based class analysis makes more sense? Or at least mirrors a relation to work based class analysis better.




I'm not saying that Ap is a working class party, I'm saying its percieved as such.
I just meant that I had nothing add to what you said.

[RGacky3]

So you're that in the US a manager will basically always make more that a worker so there a income/wealth based class analysis makes more sense? Or at least mirrors a relation to work based class analysis better.


What I'm saying is that class in Norway is more percieved as a cultural thing an an occupational thing, whereas in the US its very much a material thing, the basic class analysis is the same in both situations (one creates the surplus the other controls it) however when you get deeper into class analysis it gets different, for example the income situation, generally class and income match pretty well, at least in the US, in Norway its not so clear cut, obviously no bourgeois are poor, but many workers do very well, which effects the superstructure somewhat.

[Chris]

What I'm saying is that class in Norway is more percieved as a cultural thing an an occupational thing, whereas in the US its very much a material thing, the basic class analysis is the same in both situations (one creates the surplus the other controls it) however when you get deeper into class analysis it gets different, for example the income situation, generally class and income match pretty well, at least in the US, in Norway its not so clear cut, obviously no bourgeois are poor, but many workers do very well, which effects the superstructure somewhat.
What? Which area in Norway are you from? Here (I come from a rural area outside Larvik) it's mostly determined by occupation + income if one is working class or not. A small shop-owner is considered "working class" while a big shop-owner is not. Similarily, factory workers, quarry workers, small-farmers, public workers, transport workers, service workers and so on are clearly considered working class AND is also less well-off than those who aren't considered working class (managers, big-farmers, middle-farmers, big shop-owners, etc).
We were also one of the few counties in Norway were Høyre lost support, and AP increased their voting share by 15.6 percentage points. Mostly because Høyre's former major was pretty left-winged (being more of a right-wing/moderate AP major than a Høyre major, such as stopping privatisation attempts). Their new majoral candidate was a more "traditional" Høyre politicians... so Høyre's support dropped massively, and we are back to being an AP area.

[RGacky3]

oslo, I'm just comparing stuff to the US.

[RGacky3]

It looks like Nestleder Audun Lysbakken is likely to be the next leader of the Sv, which I think is good considering he's further to the left and more of an old school working class socialist, and since he has the support of Unions.

[Zukunftsmusik]

The fight isn't over yet. They aren't going to choose their leader until the spring, so basicly anything can happen up to then. Besides, Lysbakken had to openly declare that he is no longer a marxist. Seriously, in Norway, the 'perfect democracy', a probable to-be leader of a socialist party has to declare he's not a marxist to have a chance of being elected?