"What will Socialism be like?" (Leeds)

[JimN]

http://s1.postimage.org/blwa39fo/barcodebars.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)

"This talk will try to sketch a typical 'day in the life' of a person living in a Socialist society. From listening to the news over breakfast (what would the news be like without wars, famines and crises?) to fulfilling work with your fellows to a good night's sleep (with no work worries for the next day), we'll try to give an idea of what life in Socialism could be like."

Speaker: Paul Bennett

Saturday, September 10, 2011, 2:00pm

The Victoria Hotel, 28 Great George Street, Leeds LS1 3DL

All welcome. Free entry. Lively discussion anticipated.

Full details of this and all SPGB meetings can be found here:
http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/27126321/ (http://www.meetup.com/The-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain/events/27126321/)

[Le Rouge]

Interesting... If i lived in Uk, i would surely go.

[Zukunftsmusik]

I hardly see how talks and discussions like these can be productive. The real problem for socialists etc. isn't how socialism is going to look like, sound like or smell like, but how to get to such a society. I don't care that much about how the news will be under socialism, my greatest concern is how the news today tell us how horrible today's society is.

[Tim Cornelis]

Not suprisingly, this is hosted by the SPGB.

It's interesting to think about, but not to have a lecture about.

[Nox]

That's a very good point... What the hell would they show on the news?

[ColonelCossack]

That's a very good point... What the hell would they show on the news?

Aircraft displays?

[Tim Cornelis]

That's a very good point... What the hell would they show on the news?

Tragic deadly accidents, floodings, etc.

[JimN]

I hardly see how talks and discussions like these can be productive. The real problem for socialists etc. isn't how socialism is going to look like, sound like or smell like, but how to get to such a society. I don't care that much about how the news will be under socialism, my greatest concern is how the news today tell us how horrible today's society is.

I don't know. We are always describing socialism in terms of what is absent. Classes, the state, wages, profits, nations etc. It's like we define ourselfs by what we are against. But we often get asked what it WILL be like. It's a tricky one though, no blueprints and all that stuff, but it should provoke an interesting discussion.

[Kotze]

I would love to attend an event about the logistics of socialism. Too bad the "World Socialist Movement" (of which the SPGB is a part) is all about post-scarcity voodoo (http://www.revleft.com/vb/abolition-monetary-system-t138038/index.html?p=1793883#post1793883).

[CommieTroll]

I hardly see how talks and discussions like these can be productive. The real problem for socialists etc. isn't how socialism is going to look like, sound like or smell like, but how to get to such a society. I don't care that much about how the news will be under socialism, my greatest concern is how the news today tell us how horrible today's society is.

That may be so but it couldn't really be counter productive, it would give ordinary working class people an idea of how it could work and end some notions against Socialism, fear of the unknown y'know?

[JimN]

I would love to attend an event about the logistics of socialism. Too bad the "World Socialist Movement" (of which the SPGB is a part) is all about post-scarcity voodoo (http://www.revleft.com/vb/abolition-monetary-system-t138038/index.html?p=1793883#post1793883).

What's post scarcity voodoo? An abundance of chickens?

[Rafiq]

Sounds like a load of Utopian crap.

Socialism, I'll have you know, if ever existing, will be very shitty, just less shitty then capitalism...

[o well this is ok I guess]

Talk in-depth about your predicted sexual endeavors.
New Babylon, man.

[JimN]

Sounds like a load of Utopian crap.

Socialism, I'll have you know, if ever existing, will be very shitty, just less shitty then capitalism...

Sounds great! Let's go for it ;)

[Rafiq]

Sounds great! Let's go for it ;)



Because it was never about acheving a plausable utopia. It was about bringing the workers to class dictatorship and allowing a more efficient system to come in place.

[JimN]

Because ru

Eh?

[Jimmie Higgins]

I hardly see how talks and discussions like these can be productive. The real problem for socialists etc. isn't how socialism is going to look like, sound like or smell like, but how to get to such a society. I don't care that much about how the news will be under socialism, my greatest concern is how the news today tell us how horrible today's society is.As long as the discussion isn't "our detailed plan for what socialism will be like" then I think it's a great talk to have. You don't need to do much to tell people how shitty things are right now, plenty of people we run into would agree, people in Egypt obviously agreed, people rioting probably agree, liberals agree - but that doesn't mean that they are going to try and build a working class movement for the emancipation of the class.

Idealist utopianism is useless, I think most here agree on that. But the working class, activists, and even radicals themselves, after a generation of one-sided class war attacks have an absolute void of vision. It's almost a staw-man to talk of idealist utopianism these days because it's far far more common for people to believe that "there is no alternative". I'd guess that the idea of a zombie apocalypse, 2012 doomsday, or realistic things like environmental destruction are seen by most people as a much more likely future situation than an end to sexism, racism, war, and exploitation.

Right now people are beginning to fight back a little and I think it's better to err on the side of a little bit of positivity and vision than listing the ills of society that nearly anyone can see from their bedroom window these days. Just fighting against things isn't enough, fascists can offer that, liberals can offer that, our class needs something to fight for: worker's power, a better life, proletarian democracy, self-determination for all people and eventually a world without classes and states.

Capitalism made me an activist, that vision of communism convinced me to become a socialist.

[jake williams]

That may be so but it couldn't really be counter productive, it would give ordinary working class people an idea of how it could work and end some notions against Socialism, fear of the unknown y'know?
Hmm I was inclined to come in here and shit like everyone else but I think this might be right. While it's a bit utopian, while none of us are actually in a place to make serious statements about it, and while ultimately this sort of utopian "visioning" really doesn't help us get from a capitalist society to a socialist one - this sort of thing isn't necessarily harmful so long as it's informal and understood properly. It might even help a bit if it can be demystifying and make socialism more relatable for people to their everyday lives.

I know a lot of people here are mostly concerned about how "socialism" is a way to wave your dick around and to morally and intellectually posture. But for a lot of people the concern is actually how their lives are going to look. Being a socialist is a real commitment and it's very difficult for people to get involved without being able to give them some feeling that it will actually make their lives better. If this sort of thing can introduce that idea in a new way, it could be valuable.

[Kotze]

That may be so but it couldn't really be counter productive, it would give ordinary working class people an idea of how it could work and end some notions against Socialism, fear of the unknown y'know?
As long as the discussion isn't "our detailed plan for what socialism will be like" then I think it's a great talk to have.
Hmm I was inclined to come in here and shit like everyone else butOh, for fuck's sake.

I agree with that it can be a positive thing to give a rough outline. The problem is this: The SPGB opposes labour vouchers, even as a transitional measure. Their position is that under socialism people will work without any remuneration based on how much they want to work, and that they will consume whatever they feel like, and that nobody will abuse that, because doing that would be mean and therefore that won't happen.

This isn't just a bit utopian. Spreading this vision only contributes to people not taking socialism seriously.

[Jimmie Higgins]

^At least two of the people you are responding to are from North America; I wasn't responding to the political positions of this group I know little about but to the part I quoted.

[JimN]

Oh, for fuck's sake.

I agree with that it can be a positive thing to give a rough outline. The problem is this: The SPGB opposes labour vouchers, even as a transitional measure. Their position is that under socialism people will work without any remuneration based on how much they want to work, and that they will consume whatever they feel like, and that nobody will abuse that, because doing that would be mean and therefore that won't happen.

Really? "Would be mean" - is that the reason they give?

[Zukunftsmusik]

I don't know. We are always describing socialism in terms of what is absent. Classes, the state, wages, profits, nations etc. It's like we define ourselfs by what we are against.

But, yes, that is what the whole idea of communism is based upon - critique of capitalism. Based on this critique we must build communism. I have no interest in what the news will be like under socialism.

Jimmie Higgins:

As long as the discussion isn't "our detailed plan for what socialism will be like" then I think it's a great talk to have. You don't need to do much to tell people how shitty things are right now, plenty of people we run into would agree, people in Egypt obviously agreed, people rioting probably agree, liberals agree - but that doesn't mean that they are going to try and build a working class movement for the emancipation of the class.

Sure they wouldn't build a worker's movement. Their (liberals) analysis of capitalism is totally different from "ours". I didn't mean (though it may look like it) that just by seeing how bad the world is, people will go around making revolutions everywhere.

And I never said it would be harmful, just that I don't see how it's that interesting. I mean, it could be fun, sure, but how useful is it? Really?

[JimN]

Fun is nearly always useful.:)