Eh ??? This is from the BBC?

[Red Future]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14764357

[Nox]

I love how they just say "he was wrong about Communism" without giving a single argument to support that claim.

[Red Future]

I love how they just say "he was wrong about Communism" without giving a single argument to support that claim.

Yeah ..the theory of the article made me facepalm ...but why is the BBC suddenly praising Marx?

[Q]

Yeah ..the theory of the article made me facepalm ...but why is the BBC suddenly praising Marx?

My guess is that the bourgeoisie is really getting quite desperate here. All their theories of how society is supposed to work are falling like a house of cards by the turn of events. Might as well look into Marx then, of course in a harmless way (we shouldn't get any communist ideas out of this, oh no).

[Tommy4ever]

Yeah ..the theory of the article made me facepalm ...but why is the BBC suddenly praising Marx?

Some mainstream economists and intellectuals have been rehabilitating him as his ideas about capitalism seem especially pertinent today. So they want to be able to talk about Marxist crisis theory etc without being accused of being filthy commies. So they say, ''he was right about capitlaism, but not about communism''.

The BBC just wanted to write an article about it. Also makes them look a little 'edgy'. :p

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

How can someone utilise Marx's critique of Capitalism to draw the conclusion that communism is wrong and not much else.

It's clear that the article writer is shying away from the natural conclusion of his thoughts - that which leads to Socialism. Probably because he looks around and realises he's writing it from his big house in North London suburbia. And so the class struggle goes on.

[ColonelCossack]

Karl Marx may have been wrong about communism but he was right about much of capitalism

Contradiction.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Mainstream economists and commentators utilizing pieces of Marxian theory isn't new...Harry Cleaver mentions the fact that people were doing it back in the early 70's in "Reading Capital Politically". There was a WSJ article back then about how some people were looking at Marx's theories relating to crisis in order to get a better handle on how to prevent such crises.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I've been noticing Doomsday Capitalism from some quarters. This is from people who accept the fundamental critique of Capitalism made by Marx while rejecting his Communism. The belief is that we are basically in for a long period of economic disaster with no credible alternative.

Roubini says Marx was right about Capitalism (but also says he was wrong about Communism) (http://www.ctv.ca/generic/generated/static/business/article2129822.html)

It's a positive development that voices on all sorts are talking about Marx which increases interest in his work as well as helping to inform people why Capitalism doesn't work. It's clearly not a complete development since it does not see Communism is an alternative, but this is largely based on a common but misplaced association of 1980s USSR with "Communism" and worker's management of society (and not what it was-a bureaucratic autocracy). Either way, hardly a revolutionary article so much as a pessimistic article. Such pessimism does not offer an alternative to Capitalism so much as claims that Capitalism is doomed to bring everyone down.

[Die Neue Zeit]

My guess is that the bourgeoisie is really getting quite desperate here. All their theories of how society is supposed to work are falling like a house of cards by the turn of events. Might as well look into Marx then, of course in a harmless way (we shouldn't get any communist ideas out of this, oh no).

That's why I criticize how Marx's crisis theory is used (more like abused) by everyone from the bourgeois academics and economists to much of the left (fatalism / apocalyptic predestinationism / etc.)

[Red Commissar]

And just as he predicted, the bourgeois world has been destroyed.

But it wasn't communism that did the deed. It's capitalism that has killed off the bourgeoisie.

Eh? I thought Marx showed that capitalism would do that, or at least the conception of the Middle-Class being kicked into the ranks of the working class.

[electro_fan]

also nobody has mentioned the fact that the bbc and guardian etc are often read by liberals, especially in america who like to think they're somewhat left wing, but really aren't. so this is more appealing to their target market

[Rusty Shackleford]

The capitalists are praising marx to also discredit it and make his contributions seem like nothing but a curiosity. making him into nothing more than a fortune teller.

[Tommy4ever]

also nobody has mentioned the fact that the bbc and guardian etc are often read by liberals, especially in america who like to think they're somewhat left wing, but really aren't. so this is more appealing to their target market

The Guardian is a different story (this being a paper read by more leftie liberals and open socialists alike) but the BBC can hardly be considered 'liberal'. They are obliged to try to make themselves as appealling to all audiencesas as possible so try to go for a sort of middle approach on everything. Being a national news network their target market is everyone. But to and American I guess they'd come across as being liberals. :p

[TheGeekySocialist]

it's part of the establishments new line on things, they are basically conceding (as they have to) that the Left was right about the problems of Capitalism and the causes of crisis, but the Right are basically saying they are the only ones who can solve it, it's an analysis we will here more and more of, frankly there is no point in getting any hope from it, if anything they are using this to strengthen their own agenda.

[Invader Zim]

Yeah ..the theory of the article made me facepalm ...but why is the BBC suddenly praising Marx?


It isn't, it as an opinion piece. It is the view of the author not the institution.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I think the author of the piece conflates human ingenuity with capitalist entrepeneurialism. Yeah, as if Facebook is a comparable achievement to the Large Hadron Collider. :rolleyes:

I also can't help but laugh at this:


The result can only be further upheaval, on an even bigger scale. But it won't be the end of the world, or even of capitalism. Whatever happens, we're still going to have to learn to live with the mercurial energy that the market has released.

The dangers of lacking a materialist analysis.

[ZeroNowhere]

That's why I criticize how Marx's crisis theory is used (more like abused) by everyone from the bourgeois academics and economists to much of the left (fatalism / apocalyptic predestinationism / etc.)
I don't think that the view that Marx was 'right about capitalism but wrong about communism' is really at all compatible with the views of us Marxist eschatologists. One would think that they're pretty much opposites in this case, given that we locate communism in Marx's analysis of capitalism rather than in moral declamations and whatnot.

[RedMarxist]

When he says Marx was 'wrong about Communism', I think he means that he's referring to the Soviet Union and other Socialist states failing. Because as we all know, history 'ended' in 1991, right?

May I remind said author that when representative democracy first arose in places such as Rome and later the United Provinces and the U.S, it was deeply flawed and in Rome's case prone to grabs for power by petty dictators.

Many people in both ancient and early modern times did not think representative democracy could or would work out so well, as most of the world were absolute monarchies.

So, when socialism was first attempted in the Paris Commune and later on the USSR, most nations were representative democracies. They did not look too highly on said experiments. So when both examples listed above collapsed, people said this is proof that they failed.

See a pattern here?

One could very well argue it was not "Communism" that failed, but a variety of factors leading into its "failure" that failed. the rise of Stalin, a brutal civil war and foreign intervention(which of course NO ONE blames intervention for contributing to Socialism's failure.), a bloated bureaucracy that rose to prominence slightly under Lenin(who was keen to limit its rise and influence, wonder what would have happened if he'd lived longer) and later heavily under Stalin, and last but not least violent counter-revolution, which kept world socialism, if was possible, from ever occurring.

so BBC, I suggest you get a new writer to cover Marx. Preferably one of us on this forum.

[Philosopher Jay]

I'm wondering why you do not mention the capitalist's cold war and economic blockade as factors in the demise of the Soviet Union. The United States and its capitalist allies spent about half of what they exploited from the working class from 1945 to 1990 to destroy the Soviet Union and stop the spread of socialism. Sadly, they were successful in deforming and destroying the many gains and protections that the workers of the Soviet Union had achieved.

[StoneFrog]

But it wasn't communism that did the deed. It's capitalism that has killed off the bourgeoisie.

What crap, is this person blind or something...

[RedMarxist]

my bad forgot.

Agreed. In the early days immediately after the October Revolution orchestrated by Lenin, the future USSR(at this time known still as Russia until 1922) would see great strides made by workers and peasants. Almost all large sources of inequality(large private property, large church private property, hoarding of wealth) would be completely abolished. Naturally a civil war was unavoidable, but foreign intervention was the last straw.

Even later on under Stalin and later rulers, the working classes and peasants still enjoyed some benefits not to be found in Capitalist nations.(such as free lower and upper schooling), so alas it was a great tragedy to lose the USSR.

But Greece, if you have not read their ten-point demands yet, have incredibly socialistic, Soviet-style demands.

Nationalization and Socialization of all Greek banks.

Taxing of large church property, as well as separation between church and state.(true separation)

and end to religious dominance in both politics

opening up of transaction audits by leaders/bankers etc to the people

and my favorite: institutionalization of the people's assemblies in the new government to be held accountable to a national people's assembly.

1. MEMORANDUM & DEBT
Create an audit committee for the debt. Non-recognition of odious, onerous, illegal and unfair part.
Claiming war reparations, compensation of victims and loan repayment occupation by Germany. Enforcement of court decisions that enabled them to Greece.
Out of the Troika (IMF, ECB and EU) from Greece. Remove memorandum, loan agreement, medium and the respective applicable laws.
Not be sold or given to holding public property whether for debt or for future negotiations on further borrowing. 2. MINISTERS OF LIABILITY - Immunity
Repeal of Act liability Ministers
Remove immunity
Formation of Committees to investigate all contracts awarded between public and third from the polity and beyond.
3. ECONOMY
Fair tiered taxation of all citizens based on income. Increase the tax-free income levels decent living.
Complete abolition of indirect taxes (eg, VAT) on basic necessities and a significant reduction in other rates except those of luxury goods.
Check assets of all high income (and politicians, journalists, every public person in position of responsibility) with a real "Occupying" and special emphasis on the "Interests".
Mandatory disclosure of share register off-shore companies. Tax assimilation with the tax status of the others.
Checking deposits in Greece and abroad, confiscation in case of illegal acquisition.
Reductions of parliamentary salaries to a reasonable level. Small, fixed allowance for compulsory membership of committees.
Registration and taxation of the actual church property. Separation of church-state.
Setting a lower basic salary and a pension that provides a decent living.
Prohibition of participation in public works bidding commitment to SME owners. Disqualification of off-shore companies to SMEs.
4. CONSTITUTION - HOUSE
Convening a Constituent Assembly
Electoral system proportional
Constitutional guarantee of collecting signatures for conducting binding referendums.
Institutionalization of the Popular Assemblies in controls and setting policy. All decisions are approved by the People's Assembly.
5. JUSTICE
Complete Independence of the Judiciary from the Executive-Legislative
Repeal of "terrorist laws" and sui generis.
Increased participation of citizens as jurors in each trial
6. TRANSPARENCY
Recursive control by independent, conscripts and immediately revoked the committee of experts and other social bodies Occupying until the third degree of kinship, and removal and any banking secrecy by those who have gained parliamentary office, ministers, deputy ministers, clerks, consultants ruling party , utilities managers, mayors, prefects, members of boards of all the trade body for public utilities (GENOP etc.) and GSEE and ADEDY, senior civil servants, senior military, senior officers, board members of banks, senior clerics who have passed Durable Orthodox Synod of the polity and beyond. Confiscation of assets that are not justified by declared income.
7. SOCIAL MEMBER
Public and Free Health and Education.
Prohibition of private insurance in Health, Welfare, Pensions
Setting a minimum guaranteed income for each family depending on size.
8. BANKS
Nationalization and socialization of banks and ability to create and / or acquisition of banks by public pension funds.
Transparency in the banking system.
Requirement to publish all data and transactions of the Bank of Greece, and to give publicity to name individuals of Shareholders.
9. PRODUCTION
Shift in production processes in the primary, initially sector (agriculture, livestock, fisheries, etc.) and the secondary sector (manufacturing local products, creating light-industrial or mining the mineral wealth).
Funding and support research.
10. ENVIRONMENT
Sustainability and sustainable development
Waste managed by recycling and respect for the environment only by public and / or municipal bodies.

[Bostana]

Ahhh the BBC more biased news system I have ever laid my eyes on. Except for Fox of course, of course.

[Tommy4ever]

Ahhh the BBC more biased news system I have ever laid my eyes on. Except for Fox of course, of course.

You've obviously not seen a lot of news.

[ColonelCossack]

When he says Marx was 'wrong about Communism', I think he means that he's referring to the Soviet Union and other Socialist states failing.


I think they're referring to the belief held among many bourgeois circles that communism will never happen and that any attempts towards it will always end in failure, which is what they see the USSR as- being bourgeois. :)

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Paul Mattick wrote of this sort of thing before he died in the book "Marxism: Last Refuge of the Bourgeoisie?"

[El Louton]

Grr have you read the comments on that link! Loads of Anti-Communists and Daily Mail readers.

[scarletghoul]

lol i guessed from the thread title it would be some comment piece on the bbc website saying marx was right about a few economic points. thats not new, and tbh youd have to be absolutely crazy to read marxist economics and then look at the world and say he was completely wrong.

but the thing about the bourgeoisie is they like to divide things into abstract disciplines, like economics, politics, philosophy, literary criticism, art, manual labour, etc... and act like htey have nothing to do with each other. so some academic can say marx made some good points about the economy, and this will not pose much of a threat to the bourgeoisie because they can say 'but his politics was ridiculous' (which is precisely what they mean in the article when they say he was wrong about communism, without needing to provide any reasoning). the most important point, and something that the bourgeoisie can never come to terms with, is that marx was right politically. this follows naturally from his economics, especially if you have the correct proletarian way of thinking (dialectical materialism)