Leninists = Stalinists?

[Comintern1919]

Is Marxism-Leninism the same as Stalinism?

Many weeks ago, in my indrotuction "Greetings, Comrades - My Introduction" (http://www.revleft.com/vb/greetings-comrades-my-t158127/index.html), I wrote that I am a Marxist-Leninist and strongly against Stalinism, which started a discussion with another comrade who told me that I shouldn't call myself a Leninist 'cause it's just another word for Stalinism.

Now, after several weeks, I got into thinking, doesn't trotskists also consider themselves Leninist and still are completly against Stalinism? Isn't it that Lenin and Trotzky were muc closer than Lenin and Stalin?

And I know trotskism isn't very popular, but it still got me into thinking.

I'd say Leninism isn't the same as Stalinism, what do you think?

[Skammunist]

Now I'm confused. I thought that "Stalinism" was just a derogatory term for Marxist-Leninism. Like how the term "tankies" is also used.

[Kamos]

I'm pretty sure that M-L is a broader category that includes pro-Stalin and pro-Trotsky people as well as those who like neither and merely agree with Lenin's ideas. "Stalinist" is used as a slur most of the time but apparently some of the more hardcore authoritarian M-Ls take the name upon themselves.

[Stalin Ate My Homework]

I've wondered the same thing myself. I think you can be Leninist and not Stalinist (Trotskyist/Bolshevik Leninist), but it seems all Leninists fall into one camp or the other. It does have to be pointed out Stalin was first to use the term 'Marxist-Leninist' in his book 'The questions of Leninism' and that most ML's share some sympathy with Stalin. Personally I consider myself an orthodox Leninist with no bias with regard to Trots or ML's whilst maintaining opposition to Stalinism. You can be Marxist and Leninist without being 'Marxist-Leninist', if that even makes sense lol.

[Q]

The term "Leninism" (and later "Marxism-Leninism") were first used, in a positive way, by Stalin, in 1924, in The Foundations of Leninism (http://marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1924/foundations-leninism/index.htm). That is, it only became the official label after Lenin died. Lenin never considered himself anything other than an Orthodox Marxist. "Leninism" created an artificial body of thought in contradistiction to the earlier theorists in the Second International, pointing to an obscure polemic called What is to be done, as the "foundation stone" of Leninism. This is complete historical falsification however as a recent historical research called Lenin Rediscovered - "What is to be done?" in context points out rather well.

"Marxism-Leninism" came somewhat later and was, as far as I know, primarily intended as a distinction towards the oppositional currents within the communist party, all called "Trotskyists" (despite the fact that many didn't agree with Trotsky), implying all these oppositionists broke with Lenin's ideas and Stalin's wing was the genuine continuation of it. As a counter Trotsky employed "Bolshevik-Leninists" to describe his ideas and opposition movement.

Later on "Marxism-Leninism" became much more widely known (even by many "Marxists-Leninists") as Stalinism and "Bolshevik-Leninism" transformed into Trotskyism. I barely know any Trotskyists today that insist on the term "Bolshevik-Leninist".

[Rooster]

Marxism-Leninism was the state ideology of the USSR. It came about many years after Lenin's death, during the rule of Stalin. It picks and chooses from Marx and Lenin and leaves aside parts they disagree with or conflict with. It is an unbending and stilted ideology. Both Stalin and Trotsky tried to get some legitimacy from Lenin with Trotksy sometimes referring to himself as a Bolshevik-Leninist. Both try to repudiate each other's ideology as being deviations from Marxism and/or Leninism.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Found it on the description of the M-L's Revleft group.


Most Marxist-Leninists claim that the Soviet Union under Stalin's leadership represented a correct and successful practical implementation of the ideas of the scientific socialist ideas of Marx, Engels and Lenin in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR). That does not mean; however, that Marxist-Leninists are completely uncritical of Stalin.

[Rafiq]

No, Marxism Leninism is not limited to Stalinists, it can be a name that refers to Maoists, and Bhreznivites.

[Comintern1919]

So, can I consider myself a Marxist-Leninist, as I support Lenins ideas, but still be against Stalin, as I think he is a crazy Massmurderer, not much better than Hitler?

[Q]

So, can I consider myself a Marxist-Leninist, as I support Lenins ideas, but still be against Stalin, as I think he is a crazy Massmurderer, not much better than Hitler?

"Marxism-Leninism", being the official state ideology of the USSR from circa the 1930's onwards, is a political reflection of the counterrevolution within the revolution. That is, it provided the political legitimacy of a bureaucratic elite, using the comintern for USSR foreign affairs interests, cultus of personality, etc.

I think it is better to stay away from that label as it has nothing to do with the ideas of Marx or Lenin.

[Comintern1919]

"Marxism-Leninism", being the official state ideology of the USSR from circa the 1930's onwards, is a political reflection of the counterrevolution within the revolution. That is, it provided the political legitimacy of a bureaucratic elite, using the comintern for USSR foreign affairs interests, cultus of personality, etc.

I think it is better to stay away from that label as it has nothing to do with the ideas of Marx or Lenin.

Yeah, but I think, just because the USSR used the Term, shouldn't exclude me from using it to show my support for Lenin, right?

[Susurrus]

Why not just call yourself a bolshevik or leninist, rather than a marxist-leninist.

[Volcanicity]

So, can I consider myself a Marxist-Leninist, as I support Lenins ideas, but still be against Stalin, as I think he is a crazy Massmurderer, not much better than Hitler?
If you adhere to the tenet's of Marx/Engels/ Lenin,then yes I would say you are a ML.

A Bolshevik or Leninist is a better term.

EDIT: Susurrus you beat me to the punch.

[Comintern1919]

Why not just call yourself a bolshevik or leninist, rather than a marxist-leninist.

Why? I still don't see the difference between Leninism and Marxism-Leninism.

I doubt anyone would care do make a difference between those two, I know I wouldn't.

I wouldn't make a difference between someone calling himself Leninist, and someone calling himself Marxist-Leninist.

[Rooster]

Why? I still don't see the difference between Leninism and Marxism-Leninism.

I doubt anyone would care do make a difference between those two, I know I wouldn't.

I wouldn't make a difference between someone calling himself Leninist, and someone calling himself Marxist-Leninist.

The fact that people can use Lenin to disagree with MLs kinda shows that the two aren't strictly the same thing.

[Comintern1919]

The fact that people can use Lenin to disagree with MLs kinda shows that the two aren't strictly the same thing.

Yeah, but I doubt many would really listen that good and notice if you said the one or the other.

If I hear any of the two, I don't think about Stalin or the USSR, but about Lenin, and his teachings.

[Volcanicity]

Yeah, but I doubt many would really listen that good and notice if you said the one or the other.

If I hear any of the two, I don't think about Stalin or the USSR, but about Lenin, and his teachings.
Do you agree with what Marx/Engels and Lenin have written?

If the answer is yes then call yourself accordingly,don't worry about labels and tendencies just follow what you are in agreeance with.

[Susurrus]

If I hear any of the two, I don't think about Stalin or the USSR, but about Lenin, and his teachings.

Ah, but if others hear it they think Stalin and USSR for ml and Lenin for the other. The issue is not what you think, but what others will perceive in this case.

[Rooster]

Look, you can call yourself whatever you want but you originally asked if marxism-leninism was the same as stalinism. I'm telling you that it is.

[Commissar Rykov]

Ah, but if others hear it they think Stalin and USSR for ml and Lenin for the other. The issue is not what you think, but what others will perceive in this case.
Exactly and everytime I hear Marxist-Leninist I know they support Stalin.

[Volcanicity]

Look, you can call yourself whatever you want but you originally asked if marxism-leninism was the same as stalinism. I'm telling you that it is.
No I disagree,If you adhere to the works of Marx/Engels and Lenin then why can't you call yourself a Marxist-Leninist?

I know the term comes with the baggage of Stalin and what came after 1924 but does it have to be so?

How otherwise can the left move on and create a better image and attract more people if we keep sticking to the same old labels.

[graymouser]

No I disagree,If you adhere to the works of Marx/Engels and Lenin then why can't you call yourself a Marxist-Leninist?

I know the term comes with the baggage of Stalin and what came after 1924 but does it have to be so?
Historically the anti-Stalinist currents have not particularly embraced "Marxism-Leninism" as a designation, so it's been used as the self-description of various types of Stalinists.

The International Left Opposition preferred the term "Bolshevik-Leninists" in its early period, because Trotsky didn't want to form a Stalin-style personality cult around himself. The Fourth International began to use the term "Trotskyist" more significantly after Trotsky's death. I'm not hot on the concept and primarily would call myself a "revolutionary socialist" but that's not terribly clear for historical reasons, so the label "Trotskyist" clears up some things.

I generally don't think that using people's names in their description of ideology is the best way to go. The thing is, people called themselves Marxists after Marx died, Leninists after Lenin died, and Trotskyists after Trotsky died. (Most Stalinists don't use that label for themselves.) It puts personality ahead of politics - which is inaccurate.

If you try to rehabilitate the phrase "Marxist-Leninist," you'll get mistaken for a Stalinist. That's what it means, that's what will happen. If you're not a Stalinist, I'd stick with a different designation.

[Comintern1919]

Well, I honestly don't know what the problems of some are, I support Marx, so I call myself a Marxist, I support Lenin, so I call myself a Leninist, I support both Marx and Lenin, so I call myself a Marxist-Leninist, I hate Stalin, so I don't call myself a Stalinist, and if I would support Stalin, I'd call myself a Stalinist, as much as I would call myself a Maoist if I would support Mao.

That makes more sense to me than calling myself Bolshevik-Leninists or something else.

Why do people always have to see everything so unnecessary difficult?

[Conscript]

Because labels carry more than just the words that make them up. There's a reason why left-nationalists don't call themselves national socialists, for example.

[Commissar Rykov]

Because labels carry more than just the words that make them up. There's a reason why left-nationalists don't call themselves national socialists, for example.
Exactly, I am having a hard time figuring out why this is so hard to understand. Marxist-Leninist has been a term used for supporters of Stalin since the whole reason to coin the term was to show a divide with Trotsky and the Left-Wing Bolsheviks that were against Stalin.

[Comintern1919]

Of course, but those labels are still just words. In a communist community, you just don't say your'e that and that, you usually tell much more about your ideas, and outside, normal people wouldn't kn ow the difference.

So why make the effort to call myself something different, even though Marxism-Leninism is exactly what I believe in, in Marx and Lenin, and not Stalin, which is the reason why I don't call myself Stalinist, but M-L.

[Comintern1919]

Exactly, I am having a hard time figuring out why this is so hard to understand. Marxist-Leninist has been a term used for supporters of Stalin since the whole reason to coin the term was to show a divide with Trotsky and the Left-Wing Bolsheviks that were against Stalin.

Yeah, but still Trotsky is also considert to be a Marxist-Leninist, or is that wrong? And why then call some themselves Stalinists, and some M-L, when both is actually the same?

[Commissar Rykov]

Yeah, but still Trotsky is also considert to be a Marxist-Leninist, or is that wrong? And why then call some themselves Stalinists, and some M-L, when both is the same?
No Trotsky was never a Marxist-Leninist as I just said the term originated by Stalin and his supporters to make it seem like they were the true holders of the Revolution and thus make it look like Trotsky and the Left-Wing of the Bolsheviks were counter-revolutionaries. The term is steeped in the fact it was used as a term to divide the Bolsheviks and garner support for Stalin as he was supposedly the Non-Revisionist Line.

Trotsky mostly referred to himself as a Marxist until the split where the term Trotskyite was coined once again by Stalin supporters. Trotsky preferred the term during the split Bolshevik-Leninist.

[Comintern1919]

No Trotsky was never a Marxist-Leninist as I just said the term originated by Stalin and his supporters to make it seem like they were the true holders of the Revolution and thus make it look like Trotsky and the Left-Wing of the Bolsheviks were counter-revolutionaries. The term is steeped in the fact it was used as a term to divide the Bolsheviks and garner support for Stalin as he was supposedly the Non-Revisionist Line.

Okay, but still, why then do some call themselves M-L, and some themselves Stalinists, if both are the same?

[Commissar Rykov]

Okay, but still, why then do some call themselves M-L, and some themselves Stalinists, if both are the same?
Stalinist like Trotskyist were deragortory terms used by either side during the split. They never referred to themselves as such well Trotskyists do now since the death of Trotsky and the 4th International. I don't get it myself since it was specifically something Trotsky wanted to avoid but oh well.

[#FF0000]

Okay, but still, why then do some call themselves M-L, and some themselves Stalinists, if both are the same?

People who call themselves Stalinists aren't to be taken seriously. They call themselves that because they are stupid.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

I don't think the term Marxist-Leninist inherently means those whom support comrade Stalin but I would say most ML's here at Revleft do aside from Trotskyists and perhaps some others. It could mean "Stalinists," or Trotskyists or those whom disagree with both and only side with comrade Lenin. To say you shouldn't label yourself as Marxist-Leninist because you don't support comrade Stalin is in my opinion moronic.


People who call themselves Stalinists aren't to be taken seriously. They call themselves that because they are stupid.

Perhaps in some cases but I wouldn't say always. I have no problems really being labeled a 'Stalinist' and don't see it as being some "slur."

[Comintern1919]

I don't think the term Marxist-Leninist inherently means those whom support comrade Stalin but I would say most ML's here are Revleft do aside from Trotskyists and perhaps some others. It could mean "Stalinists," or Trotskyists or those whom disagree with both and only side with comrade Lenin. To say you shouldn't label yourself as Marxist-Leninist because you don't support comrade Stalin is in my opinion moronic.

Exactly, I'm glad there are other who think like me. If I would support Stalin, I'd called myself Stalinist, but as I mainly support Marx and Lenin, I call myself a Marxist-Leninist.

I just don't see the problem. Sure, it may historical be used for Stalinist, or something like that, but even if, we live in the present, not past, and nobody but die-hard-know-all-better-communist really care for such little things like the difference between Marxism-Leninism, just Leninism, and Bolshevik-Leninism.

Anyone not familiar with communism wouldn't understand the least bit.

[ColonelCossack]

I'm pretty sure that M-L is a broader category that includes pro-Stalin and pro-Trotsky people as well as those who like neither and merely agree with Lenin's ideas. "Stalinist" is used as a slur most of the time but apparently some of the more hardcore authoritarian M-Ls take the name upon themselves.

I call myself a stalinoid. Infact, I might make a tendency group of it for M-L's! :lol:

Edit: just did.

[Nox]

Marxism-Leninism is 'Stalinism'.

However, just being a 'Leninist' means that you are a Leninist who is most likely opposed to Stalin.

For God's sake, I am facepalming after reading through these posts. If you are not a Stalinist, then you are not a Marxist-Leninist... Saying you're a Marxist-Leninist who is opposed to Stalinism is like saying you're a Communist who is Capitalist... Marxism-Leninism only has one meaning.

[Comintern1919]

Marxism-Leninism is 'Stalinism'.

However, just being a 'Leninist' means that you are a Leninist who is most likely opposed to Stalin.

For God's sake, I am facepalming after reading through these posts. If you are not a Stalinist, then you are not a Marxist-Leninist... Saying you're a Marxist-Leninist who is opposed to Stalinism is like saying you're a Communist who is Capitalist... Marxism-Leninism only has one meaning.

Well, not where I am from, here in germany I know lots of people considering themselves M-L, but who are, if not completly opposed to, at least very critical of Stalin.

And it seems that here on RevLeft are also some who think so.

I again wonder, why, if M-L IS Stalinism, there are people who call themselves M-L AND there are people who call themselves Stalinists.

This is the learning Forum, so please do not "facepalming" if I seem unclever. Explain me then why M-L is Stalinism, and just Leninism isn't.

[Magón]

If you're opposed to Stalin, but like Lenin, just call yourself a Leninist. It's pure and simple, and you don't have to go into detail with someone, on what you're political thinking is because if they know who Lenin is, and you call yourself a Leninist, they know you uphold Lenin's writings, etc. If you call yourself an M-L, people (either the left or not) are going to think you're a Stalinist since Stalin is the man who invented the term M-L, as others have already said, and Stalin himself was a M-L.

You can't call yourself a Bolshevik-Leninist, because that's Trotskyism, so just call yourself a Leninist. If you call yourself that, it's obvious you already adhere to what Marx said since Lenin considered himself a Marxist, so the need for Marxist or Marxism, at the start of your political title, isn't necessary.

[Stalin Ate My Homework]

I'm opposed to Stalinism too, but I think the saying that he was 'mass-murderer little better than Hitler' is very much a bourgeois stance. You should study him and his policies before writing him off. I don't like him either but that's not cause he was 'evil' and killed 5554574954574574574503 children, it's cause of his russian nationalism and personality cult and a rejection of 'socialism in one country'. I would not try and justify Stalin but will defend the USSR, even under his regime.

[Comintern1919]

If you're opposed to Stalin, but like Lenin, just call yourself a Leninist. It's pure and simple, and you don't have to go into detail with someone, on what you're political thinking is because if they know who Lenin is, and you call yourself a Leninist, they know you uphold Lenin's writings, etc. If you call yourself an M-L, people (either the left or not) are going to think you're a Stalinist since Stalin is the man who invented the term M-L, as others have already said, and Stalin himself was a M-L.

You can't call yourself a Bolshevik-Leninist, because that's Trotskyism, so just call yourself a Leninist. If you call yourself that, it's obvious you already adhere to what Marx said since Lenin considered himself a Marxist, so the need for Marxist or Marxism, at the start of your political title, isn't necessary.

Yes, I know I just could call myself Leninist, but I do not understand why!

Leninism, Marxism-Leninism, for me it's the same with just one added word and a line.


"A label of Lenin's approach to Marxism at the beginning of the 20th-century, in a capitalist Russia (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/places/r/u.htm#russia) emerging from feudalism. While Lenin considered himself only a Marxist, after his death his theory and practice was given the label of Marxism-Leninism, considered to be an overall evolution of Marxism in the "era of the proletarian revolution".

-http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/m/a.htm

If Stalin was the one who invented it or not, I don't care, and people shouldn't.

Again, we live in the present, not past.

[Nox]

Well, not where I am from, here in germany I know lots of people considering themselves M-L, but who are, if not completly opposed to, at least very critical of Stalin.

Then they don't understand the meaning of Marxism-Leninism.



I again wonder, why, if M-L IS Stalinism, there are people who call themselves M-L AND there are people who call themselves Stalinists.

I think you'll find that the vast majority of Stalinists use the correct term to describe themselves; Marxist-Leninist.

[Magón]

Yes, I know I just could call myself Leninist, but I do not understand why!

Why not? You uphold Lenin, so call yourself a Leninist, there's even a group on here strictly named "Leninist", for you to mark as your tendency. Adding Marxism is just added baggage to your tendency, one which the man you don't like, Stalin, added, so just call yourself a Leninist. Pure and simple, it's not hard, it's just what you are.


If Stalin was the one who invented it or not, I don't care, and people shouldn't.

I think that's the same excuse people who uphold "Anarcho-Capitalism", use.

[Comintern1919]

I'm opposed to Stalinism too, but I think the saying that he was 'mass-murderer little better than Hitler' is very much a bourgeois stance. You should study him and his policies before writing him off. I don't like him either but that's not cause he was 'evil' and killed 5554574954574574574503 children, it's cause of his russian nationalism and personality cult and a rejection of 'socialism in one country'. I would not try and justify Stalin but will defend the USSR, even under his regime.

Of course I know by far not all that's said about him is true, still, he did kill many, he did create Gulags, he did had war prisoners work to death under terrible conditions, people did suffer under him, he allowed his army to "revenge" their victims, and that makes him as bad as Hitler and any other ruthless dictator, just more succesful. At least for me he isn't better.

And I do have studied him, You can't hate something you don't know. That's also the reason I read the bible and the Quran :) . I have many videos, writings and speeches from him.

You don't have to think so drastic, at least we both don't like him ^_^.

[DarkPast]

I think the Stalin fans (and Stalin himself) use the term "marxist-leninist" to legitimize their tendency: "we are the ones who carried forward Lenin's legacy". And besides, Stalin probably didn't want to call a tendency after himself at that time, as it would have made him look arrogant.

So if I were in your place, and wanted to distance myself from Stalin, I'd just call myself a Leninist. Though personally I don't like calling myself a "(leader's name)-ist". I prefer simply "communist".

[thriller]

I like what graymouser said: Why put people before politics? I also agree with Comintern1919 in that he should call himself what he wants. I fly the hammer and sickle but would not consider myself a Leninist. I fly it due to the fact that the symbolism (agriculture and industrial unity) is alive and well in my area. I also have great admiration for the workers who formed the the workers councils in Russia. I'm taking it back. I can call myself whatever I want and use any symbol I want. As Obi-wan said: "You must do what you feel is right, of course." Fuck all the labels. Yes they are helpful and humans like to categorize, it helps us make sense of things, but why not make your category how you want, regardless of what others may interpret it as.

[CleverTitle]

Don't get so caught up in labeling yourself. If you feel like "Marxist-Leninist" is an appropriate term that describes your particular political perspective then use it, but it really doesn't matter. Tendencies and labels distract from substantive conversation way too often. It's fine to move on without a label.

[Comintern1919]

@DarkPast

Yeah, I understand what you mean, but still, I am a Marxist and a Leninist, so I call myself Marxist-Leninist. If many (not all!) think that's stupid, so be it.

@!thriller!

Wow, thank you, just.... thousand times thank you, the most intelligend post I ever read on RevLeft. If I could, I would thank you several times for that.

Your'e right. I also use Hammer and Sickel, I have a USSR Flag and a Hammer and Sickel chain, even though it's the main symbol of the USSR and I'm no fan of the USSR. But you know what? I don't care. I like it. I'ts a symbol of justice, of fairness, so I use it, regardless of who used it before.

You think indians care if their Luck-Symbol, the Swastika, was used by Hitler? No, they still use it today, as they believe in it, in their own way, not what other (want them to) think, but what they want themselves.

Just because Nazis use the Swastika doen't mean the Indians can't use it as their Luck-Symbol, just because the corrupt state-capitalitic USSR used Hammer and Sickel doen't mean we can't use it as a symbol of communism, fairness, justice, and just because Stalin was the first to call someone M-L doesn't mean I can't consider me a M-L and showing my support for both Lenin and Marx without being a Stalinist.

[thriller]

You think indians care if their Luck-Symbol, the Swastika, was used by Hitler? No, they still use it today, as they believe in it, in their own way, not what other (want them to) think, but what they want themselves.

Just because Nazis use the Swastika doen't mean the Indians can't use it as their Luck-Symbol, just because the corrupt state-capitalitic USSR used Hammer and Sickel doen't mean we can't use it as a symbol of communism, fairness, justice, and just because Stalin was the first to call someone M-L doesn't mean I can't consider me a M-L and showing my support for both Lenin and Marx without being a Stalinist.

My girlfriend worked at an Indian Cuisine place in California that had swastikas in it because it was owned by Indians. A lady actually came up to the counter to complain that the owners were anti-semitic. They had to explain to her that the Hindus used it long before the Nazi's. Some people are gonna get offended no matter what people try to do

[~Spectre]

Different shit that ends up in the same authoritarian septic tank.

[Koba1917]

Just because Nazis use the Swastika doen't mean the Indians can't use it as their Luck-Symbol, just because the corrupt state-capitalitic USSR used Hammer and Sickel doen't mean we can't use it as a symbol of communism, fairness, justice,

Well the only meaning I have heard of the hammer and sickle is the original meaning used by the Bolsheviks. Many people who reject Leninism and even Marxism (such as Anarcho-Communists) use the symbol as well. The meaning behind the symbol is combination of the Industrial Proletariat and Peasantry (which confuses me why Trots use it).


and just because Stalin was the first to call someone M-L doesn't mean I can't consider me a M-L and showing my support for both Lenin and Marx without being a Stalinist.

Well I guess I can understand if you dislike Stalin but admire Marx, Engels and Lenin. But something that I find mysterious is that you seem to be a huge fan of Che Guevara, though he praised Stalin and found Trotskyism a failure of an ideology. Trotskyists do the same thing...doesn't make sense to me.

[#FF0000]

@DarkPast

Yeah, I understand what you mean, but still, I am a Marxist and a Leninist, so I call myself Marxist-Leninist. If many (not all!) think that's stupid, so be it

It's stupid because it's misleading and confusing. You call yourself a marxist-leninist and then are opposed to literally everything actual marxist-leninist organizations promote

[Commissar Rykov]

It's stupid because it's misleading and confusing. You call yourself a marxist-leninist and then are opposed to literally everything actual marxist-leninist organizations promote
^This. Why is this so hard to grasp you can't just take a title and ignore the history related to it. That would be like calling yourself a Fascist/National Socialist while being an Anarchist or Marxist it makes no sense.

[Kadir Ateş]

Marxism-Leninism is a more polite way of saying Stalinism.

Trotskyists would not call themselves Marxist-Leninists.

[S.Artesian]

Marxism-Leninism is a more polite way of saying Stalinism.

Trotskyists would not call themselves Marxist-Leninists.

Disagree. All Trotskyists think they are Marxists-Leninists, just as Trotsky claimed to be a Leninist.

[citizen of industry]

Many Trots believe Trotskyism is just a continuation of Marxist-Leninism. They accept Marxism and Lenin's interpretations and theories related to it, and believe Trotsky carried on those traditions. They strongly oppose Stalinism, so ML-ism doesn't have the negative connotations related to Stalinism. It was a surprise for me too when I joined Rev-left. I had never considered ML-ism synonymous with Stalinism.

[∞]

STOP REPEATING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN!

Terms mean different things they don't summatively hold the same values.

Marxism-Leninism=Marx+Lenin+Stalin's interpretation

Leninist=No Stalin's interpretation, since Stalin didn't adhere to just "Leninism".

If calling yourself an MLer can cause all these fucking confusion, why do it? Just call yourself a leninist and get over it. No need to be so pedantic.

[DarkPast]

Disagree. All Trotskyists think they are Marxists-Leninists, just as Trotsky claimed to be a Leninist.

Wait, didn't Trotskyists use the term "Bolshevik–Leninism", at least in the beginning?

[Nox]

Marxism-Leninism means Stalinism.

If you call yourself a Marxist-Leninist, people will think you are a 'Stalinist'.

End of discussion.

[S.Artesian]

Marxism-Leninism means Stalinism.

If you call yourself a Marxist-Leninist, people will think you are a 'Stalinist'.

End of discussion.


How Stalinist of you. There's this thing called history, you know, that kind of doesn't give a rat's ass what you do or don 't want to discuss. And historically, there have been non-Stalinists have referred to themselves as Marxist-Leninist.

Sorry if that's an inconvenience for you.

[Rafiq]

So, can I consider myself a Marxist-Leninist, as I support Lenins ideas, but still be against Stalin, as I think he is a crazy Massmurderer, not much better than Hitler?

Then that would make you a Bhreznivite.

[Obs]

Then they don't understand the meaning of Marxism-Leninism.




I think you'll find that the vast majority of Stalinists use the correct term to describe themselves; Marxist-Leninist.
Mmmm yeah, dismissing possible comrades out of disagreements on irrelevant historical figures is the way to go, man. Keep that up.


Then that would make you a Bhreznivite.
What if they don't like Brezhnev either?

[Rafiq]

What if they don't like Brezhnev either?

Marxism-Leninism was the official state ideology of the USSR. They invented it, and it took several forms based on the changes that the Union went through.

So if they don't 'like' Stalin, Mao, Khrushchev, or Brezhnev(The administrations under them as well, you know), then they couldn't qualify as a Marxist Leninist.

[Nox]

Mmmm yeah, dismissing possible comrades out of disagreements on irrelevant historical figures is the way to go, man. Keep that up.

I'm not dismissing anyone, or intending to offend anyone - I'm just stating the facts.

Anyone is free to call themself a Marxist-Leninist, but people will think they are a Stalinist, because that's what Marxism-Leninism is.

[Nox]

Marxism-Leninism was the official state ideology of the USSR. They invented it, and it took several forms based on the changes that the Union went through.

So if they don't 'like' Stalin, Mao, Khrushchev, or Brezhnev(The administrations under them as well, you know), then they couldn't qualify as a Marxist Leninist.

Correction; after Stalin, the state still called itself Marxist-Leninist, but in reality it was Revisionist Marxist-Leninism.

Don't get the two confused.

[S.Artesian]

I'm not dismissing anyone, or intending to offend anyone - I'm just stating the facts.

Anyone is free to call themself a Marxist-Leninist, but people will think they are a Stalinist, because that's what Marxism-Leninism is.


Boy would Lenin be surprised, and all those "old Bolsheviks' save 1 who worked with Lenin.

But it's nice to see you supporting the social-democratic position that Stalin is the logical, necessary, inherent, true follow-through on Lenin.

[Obs]

Marxism-Leninism was the official state ideology of the USSR. They invented it, and it took several forms based on the changes that the Union went through.

So if they don't 'like' Stalin, Mao, Khrushchev, or Brezhnev(The administrations under them as well, you know), then they couldn't qualify as a Marxist Leninist.
That's a bit simplistic, wouldn't you say? If one is a Marxist and agrees with the additions Lenin made to Marxist theory (such as the theory of imperialism as the logical development of capitalism), yet disagrees with the methods of both Stalin and Brezhnev, what then?

[Comrade Dracula]

That's a bit simplistic, wouldn't you say? If one is a Marxist and agrees with the additions Lenin made to Marxist theory (such as the theory of imperialism as the logical development of capitalism), yet disagrees with the methods of both Stalin and Brezhnev, what then?

I believe that a plain simple Leninist would do nicely then.

As far as I know, Marxism-Leninism is a term coined by Stalin to describe his interpretation of Lenin's interpretation and contributions to the Marxist theory.

Leninism on the other hand, was coined simply to describe Lenin's contributions to the Marxist theory, and only entered active usage after Lenin's death.

[Nox]

Boy would Lenin be surprised, and all those "old Bolsheviks' save 1 who worked with Lenin.

But it's nice to see you supporting the Marxist-Leninist position that Stalin is the logical, necessary, inherent, true follow-through on Lenin.

Fix'd it for you.

[Nox]

That's a bit simplistic, wouldn't you say? If one is a Marxist and agrees with the additions Lenin made to Marxist theory (such as the theory of imperialism as the logical development of capitalism), yet disagrees with the methods of both Stalin and Brezhnev, what then?

Then he is a Leninist.

If he supports Stalin's methods, he is a Marxist-Leninist.

If he supports the methods of Brezhnev, he is what we call 'stupid'.

[S.Artesian]

Fix'd it for you.

Quite a fix. Like a gravedigger fixes a hole.

[ColonelCossack]

The fact that people can use Lenin to disagree with MLs kinda shows that the two aren't strictly the same thing.

I've seen people quoting Marx to disagree with other Marxists.

[Commissar Rykov]

I've seen people quoting Marx to disagree with other Marxists.
It is the nature of us Marxists to argue in such fiendish and bizarre manners.:laugh:

[graymouser]

That's a bit simplistic, wouldn't you say? If one is a Marxist and agrees with the additions Lenin made to Marxist theory (such as the theory of imperialism as the logical development of capitalism), yet disagrees with the methods of both Stalin and Brezhnev, what then?
There have been several movements with that kind of politics; the only one that has really had legs over the long term is Trotskyism.

I think that this debate is missing something. To be a consistent Marxist and Leninist, you need some analysis of what happened in the USSR in 1924, in 1956, and in 1991 - just calling yourself a "Leninist" won't cut it. Various attempts at theorizing all this have been made over the years, and are often associated with their main theoreticians - whether that's Trotsky, Bukharin, Stalin, Mao, Hoxha, or whoever.

"Marxist-Leninist" has a strong connection to the post-Lenin USSR and particularly to Stalin. For instance, in the US there was a group calling itself the Communist Party (Marxist-Leninist) that was briefly the "official" pro-China group in the US. One of the quasi-Hoxhaist groups is called "US Marxist-Leninist Organization." Even the retro-Brezhnevite opposition in the CPUSA is organized around the online journal "Marxism-Leninism Today."

I see reclaiming Lenin as fundamentally different from reclaiming the term "Marxism-Leninism." The revolutionary ideas that Lenin stood for were never reflected in the wretched class-collaborationist and narrowly national politics of Stalin or any of the subsequent epigones. But that doesn't change what "Marxist-Leninist" means for most people on the left.

[Iron Felix]

Marxism-Leninism is a term Stalinists call Stalinism to create some kind of connection with Marxism and the Bolshevik coup. The "Marxism-Leninism" Stalin practiced is not the "Marxism-Leninism" the Bolsheviks practiced. But that's the beauty of Stalinist propoganda.

[Rafiq]

Correction; after Stalin, the state still called itself Marxist-Leninist, but in reality it was Revisionist Marxist-Leninism.

Don't get the two confused.

I suppose, yes, after Stalin, and especially after Khrushchev 'Marxism Leninism" was heavily revised.

But we must ask why.

[Rafiq]

That's a bit simplistic, wouldn't you say? If one is a Marxist and agrees with the additions Lenin made to Marxist theory (such as the theory of imperialism as the logical development of capitalism), yet disagrees with the methods of both Stalin and Brezhnev, what then?

Right, well then I would call them Leninists.

Marxism Leninism does not equate to the combination of Leninism and Marxism, it's more specific than that (Trotskyists = ML's?)

I myself appreciate many of the additions Lenin made to Marxism, however I, obviously am no Marxist Leninist.