the US desperately tries to deny Palestinian Statehood

[RGacky3]

And the world keeps turning (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/world/middleeast/04mideast.html?_r=1&hp).

The United States is shameless in its support of apartheid regeims.

[ComradeMan]

Well it's a mess indeed. But then hardly anyone in the Middle-East recognises Israel as a state. The last time the US recognised a state in the Middle-East look what happened... I personally wouldn't take any of this on face value.

[Column No.4]

And the world keeps turning (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/world/middleeast/04mideast.html?_r=1&hp).

The United States is shameless in its support of apartheid regeims.

Apartheid, really?

[RGacky3]

Yes, but they ARE a state, not recognizing anyone Isreal as a state is symbolic, stopping palestine from any autonomy is real.

BTW, no one is asking the US to recognize Palestine, just to stop preventing them from gaining some autonomy.

[Red Future]

How many nations have already recognized the Palestinian state ?

[Bud Struggle]

Yes, but they ARE a state, not recognizing anyone Isreal as a state is symbolic, stopping palestine from any autonomy is real.

BTW, no one is asking the US to recognize Palestine, just to stop preventing them from gaining some autonomy.

Well that's pretty darn confused. :D

No. The countries in the Middle East should recognize Israel and the US should recognoze a Palestinian state. It's just a game everyone--including the US and Egypt and Syria and Jordan and S Arabia is playing.

[Bud Struggle]

How many nations have already recognized the Palestinian state ?

Nobody. This is Gack just going off on the US.

[pluckedflowers]

Apartheid, really?


Yes (http://electronicintifada.net/content/not-analogy-israel-and-crime-apartheid/8164). Really (http://www.badil.org/al-majdal/item/72-applicability-of-the-crime-of-apartheid-to-israel).

[pluckedflowers]

The countries in the Middle East should recognize Israel

What are Israel's borders? Who has a right to live in those borders?

[Per Levy]

Nobody. This is Gack just going off on the US.

actually brazil and some other nations did recognize palastine as a state.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11941172

[ComradeMan]

Yes, but they ARE a state, not recognizing anyone Isreal as a state is symbolic, stopping palestine from any autonomy is real.

BTW, no one is asking the US to recognize Palestine, just to stop preventing them from gaining some autonomy.

Palestinian autonomy can only come about if Israel joins in. Now, Israel is expected to recognise a state that doesn't recognise (or is ambiguous about) Israel's validity as a state. That's the problem and both sides are as stubborn as each other in this respect.

[pluckedflowers]

That's the problem and both sides are as stubborn as each other in this respect.


No, that's nonsense. One side consists largely of dispossessed refugees, many of them living under military occupation. The other side is the agent of this dispossession and occupation. There is no equivalence here.

As I already asked someone else above, please explain what it means to recognize Israel. What are its borders? Who has a right to live there?

[bricolage]

Now, Israel is expected to recognise a state that doesn't recognise (or is ambiguous about) Israel's validity as a state.
Israel would only accept a recognition based on the borders it defines and recognise a Palestinian state based on its conditions (ie. no military). Putting aside political views it's quite obvious Israel is a lot more stubborn.

[ComradeMan]

No, that's nonsense. One side consists largely of dispossessed refugees, many of them living under military occupation. The other side is the agent of this dispossession and occupation. There is no equivalence here.

And... unless people are willing to coming to the negotiating table and stop being stubborn nothing will ever change. The other side also consists of a lot of people who were dispossesed refugees from Middle-Eastern countries that do not recognise the State of Israel.

[pluckedflowers]

And... unless people are willing to coming to the negotiating table and stop being stubborn nothing will ever change. The other side also consists of a lot of people who were dispossesed refugees from Middle-Eastern countries that do not recognise the State of Israel.

You haven't answered my question. Please tell us what exactly recognizing the State of Israel entails.

[communard71]

It entails a great deal of forgetting and rationalizing. A Faustian bargain which allows Israel a piece of illegally acquired ground and the Palestinians a Reservation in the desert.

[ComradeMan]

You haven't answered my question. Please tell us what exactly recognizing the State of Israel entails.

Recognising it's right to existence?

But we all know the problem is fundamentally the problem of East Jerusalem.

I'm quite pessimistic about the future on this one.

[bricolage]

Recognising it's right to existence?

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/israel.html) to exist in peace and security.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/recogn.html

Didn't do much good did it?

The issue is borders, the Israeli doesn't want recognition of its right to exist, it wants recognition of its right to exist within the parameters it sets.

[Column No.4]

Yes (http://electronicintifada.net/content/not-analogy-israel-and-crime-apartheid/8164). Really (http://www.badil.org/al-majdal/item/72-applicability-of-the-crime-of-apartheid-to-israel).

The problem between Israel and Palestine is nothing like apartheid.

[ComradeMan]

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/recogn.html

Didn't do much good did it?

The issue is borders, the Israeli doesn't want recognition of its right to exist, it wants recognition of its right to exist within the parameters it sets.

But it's not just the PLO who are the issue now. It's the "State" of Palestine that is the issue and the other Middle Eastern states that are also involved as well as Hamas and Fatah. You can't break it down into a simple black and white analysis.

[Tommy4ever]

The problem between Israel and Palestine is nothing like apartheid.

You'd be suprised just how similar it is.

[Column No.4]

You'd be suprised just how similar it is.

They may share things in common, much like most of these political struggles, but loosely lumpy them together is incorrect. I actually have more privy to this subject than most and the one thing i do know is the vast majority of Israelis have little to no problem with Palestinians other than the suicide bombings.

[RGacky3]

Well that's pretty darn confused. http://www.revleft.com/vb/us-desperately-tries-t160726/revleft/smilies/biggrin.gif

No. The countries in the Middle East should recognize Israel and the US should recognoze a Palestinian state. It's just a game everyone--including the US and Egypt and Syria and Jordan and S Arabia is playing.

only to you it is, Israel IS a state, no one is threatening to take that away, recognition is just symbolic.

What the US is doing to the palestinians is real.

Aslo state recognition is a chip that palestinians are playing, its one of the few they have and it is of no real consequence.

No one is asking the US to recognize palestine, nor does anyone care, just to stop sabotaging them.

[pluckedflowers]

The problem between Israel and Palestine is nothing like apartheid.

You've been provided with evidence to the contrary in those links, so you'll need to make an actual argument to back up your assertion.

[pluckedflowers]

Recognising it's right to existence?


OK, what does that mean?

[pluckedflowers]

the one thing i do know is the vast majority of Israelis have little to no problem with Palestinians other than the suicide bombings.

Even assuming that is true, it's entirely irrelevant. Apartheid is a legal and social institution, not an attitude.

[bricolage]

But it's not just the PLO who are the issue now. It's the "State" of Palestine that is the issue and the other Middle Eastern states that are also involved as well as Hamas and Fatah. You can't break it down into a simple black and white analysis.
I don't understand your point, all these entities existed and were involved (albeit Hamas a lot less) in 1993.

[Column No.4]

Even assuming that is true, it's entirely irrelevant. Apartheid is a legal and social institution, not an attitude.

Besides the fact that apartheid had quite a lot of native support and a lot of Israels actions doesnt. What Israel is doing is nothing more than a drastic attempt to secure safety from the incessant suicide bombings, its not even close in equivalency to apartheid.

[pluckedflowers]

What Israel is doing is nothing more than a drastic attempt to secure safety from the incessant suicide bombings, its not even close in equivalency to apartheid.

No, that's transparently false, as indicated in the links I provided to you. If we are going to have a discussion, it would be helpful if we could do so on the basis of actual facts, not broad unsubstantiated assertions. Let me know if you feel like participating. Or you can just go on repeating the semantic equivalent of "nu uh."

[Column No.4]

No, that's transparently false, as indicated in the links I provided to you. If we are going to have a discussion, it would be helpful if we could do so on the basis of actual facts, not broad unsubstantiated assertions. Let me know if you feel like participating. Or you can just go on repeating the semantic equivalent of "nu uh."

Apartheid was the colonialism driven legal segregation by the minority rule, what Israel is doing is nothing like that, thats a fact, i dont care how many propaganda links you post.

[pluckedflowers]

Apartheid was the colonialism driven legal segregation by the minority rule, what Israel is doing is nothing like that, thats a fact, i dont care how many propaganda links you post.

Ah, I see you've decided to continue with "nu uh." Have fun with that.

[Column No.4]

Ah, I see you've decided to continue with "nu uh." Have fun with that.

Get back to me when you regain your grasp on reality.

[pluckedflowers]

Get back to me when you regain your grasp on reality.

No, see, the way we determine what is reality and what isn't is we talk about these things called facts and provide citations so other people can verify these facts. You have so far proven unwilling to engage in such a process.

[Column No.4]

No, see, the way we determine what is reality and what isn't is we talk about these things called facts and provide citations so other people can verify these facts. You have so far proven unwilling to engage in such a process.

Im just waiting for you to compare the actions of Israel to those of Francos Guardia Civil.

[pluckedflowers]

Im just waiting for you to compare the Israel to Francos Guardia Civil.

There's that "nu uh" again.

[Column No.4]

There's that "nu uh" again.

Actually that was a comparison, but i wouldnt expect you to use common sense and rationale to figure that out.

[pluckedflowers]

Actually that was a comparison, but i wouldnt expect you to use common sense and rationale to figure that out.

Yes, a comparison presented in the absence of any substantive argument, and hence the semantic equivalent of "nu uh." See, there's a way out of this impasse: It's for you to actually read the evidence you've been presented with and explain why it's wrong or why the conclusion drawn does not follow. That's how argumentation works. Like I said, if you feel like giving it a try, I'll be happy to join you.

[ComradeMan]

I don't understand your point, all these entities existed and were involved (albeit Hamas a lot less) in 1993.

They won't recognise the Jewish State of Israel and the Israeli's won't back down on that.

Here's an article in Haaretz
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-only-when-palestinians-recognize-israel-as-a-jewish-state-will-they-be-ready-for-peace-1.320665

Abbas has also been accused of being a Holocaust denier- although he denies this accusation.

"In the doctoral thesis and book, Abbas describes the Nazi Holocaust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust) as "the Zionist fantasy, the fantastic lie that six million Jews were killed."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abbas

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/sep/23/four-questions-for-mahmoud-abbas/

As usual, a neutral source on this topic is probably impossibe to find- judge for yourself.:(

[pluckedflowers]

They won't recognise the Jewish State of Israel and the Israeli's won't back down on that.
(

Still waiting to hear what that actually means.

[ComradeMan]

Still waiting to hear what that actually means.

Stop being disingenuous and look it up yourself if you're so concerned- try reading the articles/links posted too. ;)

Here's an article that discusses the idea of a Jewish state.
http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles2/isrjewstate.htm

[Column No.4]

Yes, a comparison presented in the absence of any substantive argument, and hence the semantic equivalent of "nu uh." See, there's a way out of this impasse: It's for you to actually read the evidence you've been presented with and explain why it's wrong or why the conclusion drawn does not follow. That's how argumentation works. Like I said, if you feel like giving it a try, I'll be happy to join you.

Ive read your crap and it still doesnt support your argument that Israels actions are equivalent to apartheid.

[pluckedflowers]

Stop being disingenuous and look it up yourself if you're so concerned- try reading the articles/links posted too. ;)

Here's an article that discusses the idea of a Jewish state.
http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles2/isrjewstate.htm

The article doesn't seem to answer my questions. What are the borders of this state? Who, specifically, has the right to live there?

[ComradeMan]

The article doesn't seem to answer my questions. What are the borders of this state? Who, specifically, has the right to live there?

Well Netanyahu was prepared to concede territories a while back- using the pre-1967 borders as a base.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-israel-willing-to-cede-parts-of-our-homeland-for-true-peace-1.362130

Here's another article
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4114446,00.html

However the Israelis' primary demands are-
1) Jerusalem as the undivided capital of Israel
2) Preservation settlement blocs on the West Bank
3) Recognition of the Jewish State if Israel

[Che a chara]

what israel is doing is nothing more than a drastic attempt to secure safety from the incessant suicide bombings

wtf ?

[Spets]

I think they are voting against it because if they are granted statehood the Palestinian people will say Israel did this and that, so the media may/may not do a story on it. But if they do they'll probably say guess who funded these actions? the United States of America.

[RGacky3]

X3jeqN8ROkE

[Revolution starts with U]

They may share things in common, much like most of these political struggles, but loosely lumpy them together is incorrect. I actually have more privy to this subject than most and the one thing i do know is the vast majority of Israelis have little to no problem with Palestinians other than the suicide bombings.
1)The way to dispute a comparison between things is not to insert an appeal to your own authority and secret knowledge.
2)Even had you this secret knowledge, your anecdotal evidence does nothing to support your argument.
3)You say this and really wonder why you are restricted?!

Oh, those pesky suicide bombings. If only we could push people off their native land, stuff them into little camps, and not have them get all mad about it. What jerks! We're just trying to live in peace and deny them any political representation whatsoever...
/sarcasm :rolleyes:

EDIT: Note that I am not saying anything on whether or not the Isreal situation is equivalent to apartheid.