Christians blocked from building a church in Indonesia on a road with a Muslim name

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

http://english.aljazeera.net/video/asia-pacific/2011/09/201192203515615368.html

Christian nutters and Muslim nutters always mirror one another. The people arguing against this church remind me so much of the American Christians arguing against the mosque in New York. If only religious fanatics would just go away.

What I find interesting is their ability to basically ignore the writ of the central government. This is a worrying development because it implies that preventing discrimination is not within the government's political power any more. It is obviously a worrying sign for unorthodox Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, Animists and, it seems, the Christians.

[Column No.4]

The difference is i dont have Muslims knocking on my door or standing on the corner with pro-life crap. Ive been treated like a subhuman by Christians my whole life, never had a problem with Jews, Muslims or any other religion for that matter.

[DarkPast]

The difference is i dont have Muslims knocking on my door or standing on the corner with pro-life crap. Ive been treated like a subhuman by Christians my whole life, never had a problem with Jews, Muslims or any other religion for that matter.

I've noticed that, the stronger a religious institution is in a country, the more likely it is to force its dogma on others. So in a predominantly Muslim country, the Muslims usually do the oppressing while the Christians seem much more reasonable. In predominantly Christian countries, it tends to be the other way round.

Just my experience, not saying it's a rule or anything.

[Column No.4]

I've noticed that, the stronger a religious institution is in a country, the more likely it is to force its dogma on others. So in a predominantly Muslim country, the Muslims usually do the oppressing while the Christians seem much more reasonable. In predominantly Christian countries, it tends to be the other way round.

Just my experience, not saying it's a rule or anything.

I think the difference between the two is Islam is more forced, while Christianity sneaks in.

[DarkPast]

I think the difference between the two is Islam is more forced, while Christianity sneaks in.

That probably has something to do with the fact that the governments of the current "Muslim states" tend to be much more authoritarian and directly involved with their state religion.

[Column No.4]

That probably has something to do with the fact that the governments of the current "Muslim states" tend to be much more authoritarian and directly involved with their state religion.

Yeah, thats true. I think the Christian tactic is worse because unlike the Muslim tactic its not obvious.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Honestly see no problem with this; if Christians are going to try to stop us from building masjids in the states then it seems only fair. Piss off.

This isn't a serious post but some smart ass silliness pulled from my malcontent ass. These do not in any way, shape or form reflect my real political positions

[Rafiq]

I think the difference between the two is Islam is more forced, while Christianity sneaks in.



This is spot on, except when islamic liberals don't force you, they sneak in...

[Column No.4]

This is spot on, except when islamic liberals don't force you, they sneak in...

Referencing to Obama?

[Rafiq]

Referencing to Obama?



No....

[the last donut of the night]

islam isn't stronger and christianity isn't "sneakier". how you perceive those religions to actually impact on your life have to do with the sociopolitical and class conditions in your area. christianity's gonna seem nicer in saudi arabia than it is in the bible belt. it's not that simple

[Princess Luna]

Honestly see no problem with this; if Christians are going to try to stop us from building masjids in the states then it seems only fair. Piss off.
Two wrongs don't make a right and the Christians in Indonesia have no more to do with persecution of Muslims in the Unites States, then Muslims in the United States have to do with oppression of women in Saudi Arabia.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Two wrongs don't make a right and the Christians in Indonesia have no more to do with persecution of Muslims in the Unites States, then Muslims in the United States have to do with oppression of women in Saudi Arabia.

I fully understand this however that was just my informal, unofficial personal opinion on the matter. Sure Christians should be able to build their whatevers in whichever country they happen to be residing in but within the wake of numerous Muslim communities in the states having their building proposals rejected, protests against them and so forth it's kind of a nice, fuck you, understand? But officially, yes, they should have the freedom to build wherever (generally speaking).

[LancashireLenin]

I fully understand this however that was just my informal, unofficial personal opinion on the matter. Sure Christians should be able to build their whatevers in whichever country they happen to be residing in but within the wake of numerous Muslim communities in the states having their building proposals rejected, protests against them and so forth it's kind of a nice, fuck you, understand? But officially, yes, they should have the freedom to build wherever (generally speaking).


So when the Christians in the USA say 'well we won't allow a mosque in ... I don't know ... Kentucky because they won't allow a church in Indonesia', it'll be a nice 'fuck you' to the Muslims?

Why do we want religious groups to be at each other's throats? Why applaud an act of religious conflict from whatever side? Religious animosity is a distraction from class struggle.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

The difference is i dont have Muslims knocking on my door or standing on the corner with pro-life crap. Ive been treated like a subhuman by Christians my whole life, never had a problem with Jews, Muslims or any other religion for that matter.

Yeah, you've never been treated badly by Muslims, but what about these people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Indonesian_beheadings_of_Christian_girls)?


The three teenagers were walking to a private Christian school in Central Sulawesi province with their friend Noviana Malewa, 15, when they were attacked by a group of six masked men armed with machetes. The attackers left one of the girls' heads outside a church. A note was left with the severed heads, which were dumped in plastic bags in the girls' village, which stated: "Wanted: 100 more heads, teenaged or adult, male or female; blood shall be answered with blood, soul with soul, head with head."[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Indonesian_beheadings_of_Christian_girls#cite _note-5)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Indonesian_beheadings_of_Christian_girls#cite _note-6) Malewa, the youngest, survived the attack with serious wounds to her neck.[1] (http://www.opinionbug.com/wp-images/christian_schoolgirls_beheaded_in_poso_noviana_mal ewa.jpg) The surviving girl was able to describe the attackers to the police.
Five suspects, including a former military police officer, were arrested and later released for lack of evidence, although three were subsequently re-arrested. The trial of three men, Irwanto Irano, Lilik Purwanto and Hasanuddin began in November 2006.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Indonesian_beheadings_of_Christian_girls#cite _note-7) In February 2007, prosecutors recommended 20-year jail sentences for all three defendants. The prosecutors said they were not seeking the death penalty because the defendants had shown remorse and been forgiven by the victims' families.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Indonesian_beheadings_of_Christian_girls#cite _note-8) The sentences were passed on 21 March 2007. Hasanuddin was given 20 years for planning the attack, while two accomplices were given 14 years. Hasanuddin had told the court he helped plan the attack, but he denied allegations he masterminded it.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Indonesian_beheadings_of_Christian_girls#cite _note-9)
On going to jail, Hasanuddin said "It's not a problem (if I am being sentenced to prison) because this is a part of our struggle."[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Indonesian_beheadings_of_Christian_girls#cite _note-news.bbc.co.uk-0) Hasanuddin was the leader of the regional Islamic terrorist group Jemaah Islamiyah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jemaah_Islamiyah) (JI) for the Poso district.

Honestly see no problem with this; if Christians are going to try to stop us from building masjids in the states then it seems only fair. Piss off.


I fully understand this however that was just my informal, unofficial personal opinion on the matter. Sure Christians should be able to build their whatevers in whichever country they happen to be residing in but within the wake of numerous Muslim communities in the states having their building proposals rejected, protests against them and so forth it's kind of a nice, fuck you, understand? But officially, yes, they should have the freedom to build wherever (generally speaking).

This is some reactionary bullshit right here. Indonesian Christians should not be held responsible for the actions of American Christians, any more than American Muslims should be held responsible for the actions of al Qaeda. You linking the attempt to build a church in Indonesia is no different from the rightwing assholes in the USA linking the Islamic center in New York City to Osama bin Laden. It's this kind of thinking which preserves the Islamic-Christian conflict. I suppose you also think that Bali should have some of its Hindu temples knocked down every time Hindus knock down a Mosque in India? Why can't someone invert this sick logic and behead an innocent American Imam every time the Taliban beheads a naive Korean Missionary in Afghanistan? Where does your logic end?

And lest you get too happy, moderate and unorthodox Muslims are also persecuted in Indonesia. The best example is of the Ahmadiyya. (http://www.thepersecution.org/world/indonesia/index.html)

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

So when the Christians in the USA say 'well we won't allow a mosque in ... I don't know ... Kentucky because they won't allow a church in Indonesia', it'll be a nice 'fuck you' to the Muslims?

Why do we want religious groups to be at each other's throats? Why applaud an act of religious conflict from whatever side? Religious animosity is a distraction from class struggle.

I'm very well aware of this and I believe I said I wasn't being serious in my initial response, it was just an informal, "oh, ironic and funny," kind of response. Why you and the other twit below you, are trying to twist this into some whatever is beyond me when I believe I've already explained myself once. I am fairly sure I said Christians should have the freedom to build their whatevers wherever, hmm, let me check:



Sure Christians should be able to build their whatevers in whichever country they happen to be residing in


Yep, that's indeed what I said, that would be my official opinion on the matter, full stop, the rest is just silly personal commentary and opinions. People should of course have the right to freedom of religion, religious expression, religious assembly and be free to a life of religious fufillment and build their whatevers wherever and blah blah blah. There, are you content now? Is it all clear? Am I going to have to clarify my position any further?


This is some reactionary bullshit right here.

No, it's really not, it's just you and another member not understanding what I'm saying is what it is. Let's not through out the r-card so hastly now.


Indonesian Christians should not be held responsible for the actions of American Christians, any more than American Muslims should be held responsible for the actions of al Qaeda. You linking the attempt to build a church in Indonesia is no different from the rightwing assholes in the USA linking the Islamic center in New York City to Osama bin Laden. It's this kind of thinking which preserves the Islamic-Christian conflict. I suppose you also think that Bali should have some of its Hindu temples knocked down every time Hindus knock down a Mosque in India? Why can't someone invert this sick logic and behead an innocent American Imam every time the Taliban beheads a naive Korean Missionary in Afghanistan? Where does your logic end?

For fuck's sake, are you even serious with this? This question isn't rhetorical, are you?

Half of that is a load of incoherent crap and the other couldn't in the least bit be applied to anything I've said considering I've clarified and said no, they should be able to build their little church, X is just my little opinions and knee-jerk thoughts and how I think it's a funny fuck you to Christians. That's about it, I am not promoting some tit-for-tat medieval pissing contest between the two parties, my God. Before you start writing your next little goodie lefty two-shoes diatribe against one of my silly little posts, how about you reread it and see if I am making a serious political assertion or if I'm just being a pissy malcontent and lawlzing at something.

[Frank Zapatista]

I'm noticing a lot of Pro-Muslim, anti-Christian sentiment here. I honestly think it's caused by being raised in a predominantly Christian state. I know Atheists that will fly off the handle if you mention Jesus or Christianity and go on and on about the evils of the church but will defend Islam or Buddhism etc. on the spot, this is the kind of attitude I'm seeing here aswell. It's honestly pretty juvenile. As for the argument that it's okay because they're receiving the same treatment here, that logic is so backwards. Christians should be able to have a place of worship there as much as Muslims should be able to worship here. Also, I've had Muslims be just as forceful of their beliefs to me as Christians, I've been scolded by muslims at school because I ate/eat pork, everyone can be forceful with their beleifs, it's a human thing not a Christian one.

[Frank Zapatista]

Honestly see no problem with this; if Christians are going to try to stop us from building masjids in the states then it seems only fair. Piss off.
You should be banned for this post, that's some pretty extreme right wing views, you got there. You're trying to defend the persecution of a group of people. What about the fact that apostasy is illegal in Saudi Arabia with the punishment of death? Christians aren't the only one who religiously persecute.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

as for the argument that it's okay because they're receiving the same treatment here, that logic is so backwards.


I've never once genuinely or seriously stated that this kind of treatment the Christians in Indonesia are recieving is 'ok.'


Christians should be able to have a place of worship there as much as Muslims should be able to worship here.

I believe I've said that twice now.


Also, I've had Muslims be just as forceful of their beliefs to me as Christians, I've been scolded by muslims at school because I ate/eat pork, everyone can be forceful with their beleifs, it's a human thing not a Christian one.

Alright, I'm going to call you on this (even though it can't be proven really), I'm just saying as a Muslim, who was born a Muslim and has lived in primarily Muslim communities my entire life, I have not once heard of someone scolding some non-Muslim for eating pork nor have I ever had the urge to scold any of my non-Muslim friends for eating pork. Even assuming it is true, it's incredibly stupid on their part, I'm just saying, I'm skeptical of the validity of this story even though this is obviously off-topic.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

You should be banned for this post,

Fuck off, did you seriously not read any of my posts after that? I'm not going to put up with some stupid Monty Python-esque "ban him! ban him!" nonsense for some off handed comments that I posted in which I have fully explained twice now, here let me quote myself yet fucking again for those of you who can't seem to scroll up and read.



People should of course have the right to freedom of religion, religious expression, religious assembly and be free to a life of religious fufillment and build their whatevers wherever ...


Is that clear enough for you? Do I have to elaborate any further? Oh and this:



I've never once genuinely or seriously stated that this kind of treatment the Christians in Indonesia are recieving is 'ok.'



There, now, do I have to literally retract some silly, off-hand, informal, smart ass comment? Do I have to say I retract this and insert my real official opinion (which I've already stated now 3 times) for all 3 of you to get it? Honestly, post one smartass stupid thing and now this; ridiculous. Ban happy twits.


You're trying to defend the persecution of a group of people

No, I'm not and if you really read my posts this would be clear to you.


What about the fact that apostasy is illegal in Saudi Arabia with the punishment of death? Christians aren't the only one who religiously persecute.

I realize this and I don't agree with the above mentioned policies in the mentioned state.

[Frank Zapatista]

Half of that is a load of incoherent crap and the other couldn't in the least bit be applied to anything I've said considering I've clarified and said no, they should be able to build their little church, X is just my little opinions and knee-jerk thoughts and how I think it's a funny fuck you to Christians. That's about it, I am not promoting some tit-for-tat medieval pissing contest between the two parties, my God. Before you start writing your next little goodie lefty two-shoes diatribe against one of my silly little posts, how about you reread it and see if I am making a serious political assertion or if I'm just being a pissy malcontent and lawlzing at something.
You're trying to cover-up your reactionary post with the childish "LULZ I'M JUST TROLLING GUISE". Even if you didn't seriously mean your post it was spam and counter-productive to the discussion. You're inciting a stupid flamewar because you can't control yourself.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

You're trying to cover-up your reactionary post with the childish "LULZ I'M JUST TROLLING GUISE". Even if you didn't seriously mean your post it was spam and counter-productive to the discussion. You're inciting a stupid flamewar because you can't control yourself.

I'm really not trying to cover up for anything. I can delete all said posts if it would really please you and others. I'm not about to be banned for some admittedly stupid, counter-productive comments I should have saved for chit-chat. I'm not trying to incite anything more I am clarifying my own genuine political positions. No, for your information, I don't agree with the religious persecution faced by Indonesian Christians. Yes, I think they should be able to build their Churches wherever they please. I have spent the majority of my posts in this thread explaining this. All you're trying to do really is take one post I wrote and turn into some official, cut-and-dry, serious political position in which I most certainly was not trying to make. Now, either I can delete my posts or the mods can do it for me. I'm just making it perfectly, crystal clear that I do not in any way shape or form support the actions to prevent Indonesian Christians from building their churches. I do not support any tit-for-tat medieval pissing contests between the two faiths. I do support the freedom of religion, religious expression, religious assembly and pursuit of religious fufillment or lack their of for all faiths or none at all.

Are you now satisified? Have I made myself perfectly clear?

Note to the mods/admins: I realize my mistake and will not post my idiocy outside of chit-chat and henceforth will only post serious-ish crap. Feel free to delete any or all of these posts. I hope I have made my real positions absolutely clear. I'm not some far-right religious nutter, don't be silly.

[Misanthrope]

The difference is i dont have Muslims knocking on my door or standing on the corner with pro-life crap. Ive been treated like a subhuman by Christians my whole life, never had a problem with Jews, Muslims or any other religion for that matter.

Why "hate" sects of religion more then others? They're all the same. They have the same intention and the same effect on society.

[Frank Zapatista]

I'm really not trying to cover up for anything. I can delete all said posts if it would really please you and others. I'm not about to be banned for some admittedly stupid, counter-productive comments I should have saved for chit-chat. I'm not trying to incite anything more I am clarifying my own genuine political positions. No, for your information, I don't agree with the religious persecution faced by Indonesian Christians. Yes, I think they should be able to build their Churches wherever they please. I have spent the majority of my posts in this thread explaining this. All you're trying to do really is take one post I wrote and turn into some official, cut-and-dry, serious political position in which I most certainly was not trying to make. Now, either I can delete my posts or the mods can do it for me. I'm just making it perfectly, crystal clear that I do not in any way shape or form support the actions to prevent Indonesian Christians from building their churches. I do not support any tit-for-tat medieval pissing contests between the two faiths. I do support the freedom of religion, religious expression, religious assembly and pursuit of religious fufillment or lack their of for all faiths or none at all.

Are you now satisified? Have I made myself perfectly clear?

Note to the mods/admins: I realize my mistake and will not post my idiocy outside of chit-chat and henceforth will only post serious-ish crap. Feel free to delete any or all of these posts. I hope I have made my real positions absolutely clear. I'm not some far-right religious nutter, don't be silly.
Even if it was sarcastic, even it was in chit-chat, it's making a joke out of discrimination. Can you imagine the uproar if you even jokingly said "Jews shouldn't be allowed to build synagogues in *insert muslim country here*"? Why is it allowed when the ones being made fun of are Christian? I honestly don't believe you were joking.

[pastradamus]

Oh dear, what a pity, never mind.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Even if it was sarcastic, even it was in chit-chat, it's making a joke out of discrimination. Can you imagine the uproar if you even jokingly said "Jews shouldn't be allowed to build synagogues in *insert muslim country here*"? Why is it allowed when the ones being made fun of are Christian?

Point taken, I realize my mistake, my bad, won't happen again. I didn't take the first sentence into consideration nor did it cross my mind.



I honestly don't believe you were joking.


Why? I don't even know why I'm really asking this, I can't change this but I believe I've made my real positions clear. I've never advocated something of that nature in a serious manner in any other thread why would you assume I'm being so super serious in this thread? Why are you taking this so seriously? I realize it was a stupid, counter-productive asinine post, I realize this, I have retracted and explained this. I realize I made a joke about discrimination, I didn't take this into consideration in my intial post, I was ignorant, I admit it.

You live and learn, this is a discussion forum after all.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

For fuck's sake, are you even serious with this? This question isn't rhetorical, are you?

Half of that is a load of incoherent crap and the other couldn't in the least bit be applied to anything I've said considering I've clarified and said no, they should be able to build their little church, X is just my little opinions and knee-jerk thoughts and how I think it's a funny fuck you to Christians. That's about it, I am not promoting some tit-for-tat medieval pissing contest between the two parties, my God. Before you start writing your next little goodie lefty two-shoes diatribe against one of my silly little posts, how about you reread it and see if I am making a serious political assertion or if I'm just being a pissy malcontent and lawlzing at something.

You're a fool if you actually think you're in the right to be offended by anyone who criticized what you wrote. Maybe you were just "joking" or whatever but this is a serious topic and if you're going to kid around/troll/etc you should (a) be more clear that it is what you're doing or (b) not get self-righteous or indignant when folks take you seriously. Even if you are joking it's in questionable taste to make light of the suffering of people who are actually being oppressed right now, and it's not what most people expect from a Leftist.

I don't like it when Americans make jokes about Muslims, likewise I don't like it much when Muslims joke about oppression of Christians. Just as importantly, while politically incorrect humor can be funny there are plenty of people thinly veil their discrimination with "humor," and reactionary racist/religious fanatics are the worst at this. It's not without reason that a number of people on this forum took you seriously despite your "explanation". The fact that you admit finding it a "funny fuck you" and a "kneejerk reaction" indicates that this suspicion might be true and the opinion is a little deeper than just humor anyways.


One important thing is to consider the overall tone of the thread so far. You said that a few lines from another guy saying Islamic repression is somehow less pernicious than Christian, and so you were merely contributing to an already-existing atmosphere of total disregard to the civil liberties of Christians, even if you were not being serious. I don't know about others but I am sick of people sugarcoating the repression of Christians simply because Christians in America happen to be particularly irritating and hegemonic, as if Christians were the only people guilty of behaving in such a manner in the whole world.


I'm not about to be banned for some admittedly stupid, counter-productive comments I should have saved for chit-chat.I dont think you should be banned either but don't get all self righteous when people criticize you for what is in a sense rightwing humor.


All you're trying to do really is take one post I wrote and turn into some official, cut-and-dry, serious political position in which I most certainly was not trying to make. Well, this is the discrimination forum, you can post jokes but I think one expects at least a moderately serious attitude on issues involving that topic. You especially shouldn't make the joke that "Well X kind of discrimination is karmic justice" in the discrimination forum.


Now, either I can delete my posts or the mods can do it for me. I'm just making it perfectly, crystal clear that I do not in any way shape or form support the actions to prevent Indonesian Christians from building their churches. I do not support any tit-for-tat medieval pissing contests between the two faiths. I do support the freedom of religion, religious expression, religious assembly and pursuit of religious fufillment or lack their of for all faiths or none at all.You don't need to delete your posts or anything like that. It would be a waste of time and wouldn't achieve anything. You clarified your position etc and made it more clear what you meant. What would be good is a little more humility and a little less indignation towards those who criticized what you wrote.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

You're a fool if you actually think you're in the right to be offended by anyone who criticized what you wrote. Maybe you were just "joking" or whatever but this is a serious topic and if you're going to kid around/troll/etc you should (a) be more clear that it is what you're doing or (b) not get self-righteous or indignant when folks take you seriously. Even if you are joking it's in questionable taste to make light of the suffering of people who are actually being oppressed right now, and it's not what most people expect from a Leftist.

Agreed, I was in the wrong completely, I admit it.



I don't like it when Americans make jokes about Muslims, likewise I don't like it much when Muslims joke about oppression of Christians. Just as importantly, while politically incorrect humor can be funny there are plenty of people thinly veil their discrimination with "humor," and reactionary racist/religious fanatics are the worst at this. It's not without reason that a number of people on this forum took you seriously despite your "explanation".


I understand how what I said could have been taken the wrong way or seriously and I understand that making jokes about the real discrimination faced by Christians in Indonesia wasn't proper, right and so on. I do admit I have a bias considering it sucks balls being Muslim in America and sometimes my bias does come out via humor. It was most definately insensitive and ignorant. I can see why people got pissed at me, I'm sure if it was some other issue I would have responded the same.

In all honesty, I could probably relate to these Christians is the thing.


Also realize that you said that a few lines from another guy saying Islamic repression is somehow less pernicious than Christian.

When did I say this exactly? I know full well Muslims can be just as big as pricks as Christians; I know it, I have had to put a few Salafi bros in check before.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Agreed, I was in the wrong completely, I admit it.



I understand how what I said could have been taken the wrong way or seriously and I understand that making jokes about the real discrimination faced by Christians in Indonesia wasn't proper, right and so on. I do admit I have a bias considering it sucks balls being Muslim in America and sometimes my bias does come out via humor. It was most definately insensitive and ignorant. I can see why people got pissed at me, I'm sure if it was some other issue I would have responded the same.

In all honesty, I could probably relate to these Christians is the thing.


Well, at least you're mature :D

I think its important to recognize our biases. Everyone has biases and I think most people let it shine through in their humor so you are not alone in that respect. I have no problem with people's biases as long as they are willing to admit them. Any really self-critical person should be able to admit a couple of biases they have discovered in themselves and confronted in their life time. But most people in our society aren't that self-critical, and on that level you deserve credit.

It does suck to be a Muslim in America, and I think everyone on this forum agrees with that. I think you will find sympathy from most on that front, if not all. The struggle is largely for religious minorities around the world, and that is Muslims here and Christians in the Muslim world, precisely because they lack political voice and because the majority uses violence and intimidation to maintain its hegemony. I think the fact that you share a story with the Christians of Indonesia is an opportunity for solidarity.



When did I say this exactly? I know full well Muslims can be just as big as pricks as Christians; I know it, I have had to put a few Salafi bros in check before.I wasn't speaking of you I was talking about another poster (column no 4), I merely meant that the thread already had an anti-Christian vibe which made me and probably the other posters too a little less sympathetic about your joke. I know it made me less willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2224288&postcount=2

But unlike you he does seem to be serious.

And you do deserve a collective thanks for keeping your religious brethren in check. I know it's hard to constantly confront people's Islamophobia, I'm sure it's just as difficult in your community. I find it is very hard to overcome people's ingrained biases about Muslims (I find Atheists are often more hardline on it than Christians too). IMO what you do in real life is more important than words typed on an internet forum anyways.