Defending the DPRK (why does this happen)?

[Streetwaves]

I was looking up videos relating to North Korea on Youtube yesterday and stumbled upon some nonsense posted by ProletarianCPGBML, and some other crap posted by MaoistRebelNews2, both in defense of North Korea. Despite the fact that ProletarianCPGBML's own profile mentions the importance of the interests of working people, both are in my opinion defending a state and a dictator that has virtually no interest in the welfare of working people.

Am I crazy? I mean I find it incredible that these idiots living in Canada and England have the audacity to support and defend a dictator whose state-run media spews propaganda into the homes of all of his people. And this isn't the brainwashed-by-Western-propaganda me talking. We've all seen KCTV and heard Voice of Korea, and it resembles NOTHING I've ever heard in a semi-free country, and I can't imagine it being the only source of information. In addition to that, he lives in a fucking mansion (and apparently has many) and has a giant pool with a WATER SLIDE. All of this is verifiable by checking out Google Earth, and through the testimony of Kenji Fujimoto and other escaped North Koreans. As far as I know, he's not been discredited.

Despite that, these two idiots both responded to me on Youtube PMs speaking in platitudes and not answering anything directly. As soon as I rephrased my message to be more pointed and more difficult to avoid, MaoistRebelNews2 blocked me and CPGBML stopped responding altogether. By the way, before he did, MaoistRebelNews really shut me down: he told me he has a subscriber who's been to NK and it's all untrue. CPGBML told me Ceausescu was a decent man.

What am I missing here? Why when I looked up this subject on Google did I find a thread here asking the same question months ago and several apparently pro-dictatorship jerks continued this nonsense in that thread? I haven't come here just to argue, but I have to admit, I'm incredibly curious. It seems to me that the North Koreans that actually have to live through that shit on a daily basis would be totally mindblown to find out there's some retarded lonely kid in Canada campaigning for their country to stay exactly the way it is. God, they'd want to punch him in the face.

Let me have it I guess? I'm open-minded as can be but this has got me confused to say the least.

[MarxSchmarx]

Kenji Fujimoto was Japanese.

For what it's worth, you answered your own question. When a government like north korea can control the information that goes out so thoroughly, only the best news gets out and the stuff about labor camps and repression generally come from otherwise less than reputable sources like Dick Cheney or Japanese right-wingers. Defectors, sure, but let's remember their stories are hard to corroborate because of the North's secrecy.

So basically it comes down to "you can fool some of the people all the time".

Also it's nothing really new, the authoritarian left has always had bizarre bedfellows by people all too willing to ignore the facts on the ground. In this day and age I imagine a lot of it is about an "enemy of my enemy being my friend" mentality especially when capitalism and the US are so hegemonic. And in some circles, e.g., south korean social democrats, it used to be a lot of the most vocal pro-north activists were government plants.

[Streetwaves]

Kenji Fujimoto was Japanese.

For what it's worth, you answered your own question. When a government like north korea can control the information that goes out so thoroughly, only the best news gets out and the stuff about labor camps and repression generally come from otherwise less than reputable sources like Dick Cheney or Japanese right-wingers. Defectors, sure, but let's remember their stories are hard to corroborate because of the North's secrecy.

So basically it comes down to "you can fool some of the people all the time".

Also it's nothing really new, the authoritarian left has always had bizarre bedfellows by people all too willing to ignore the facts on the ground. In this day and age I imagine a lot of it is about an "enemy of my enemy being my friend" mentality especially when capitalism and the US are so hegemonic. And in some circles, e.g., south korean social democrats, it used to be a lot of the most vocal pro-north activists were government plants.


Just for the record I do know Kenji Fujimoto is Japanese. I worded it poorly by saying "other escaped North Koreans", but he was hired as Kim Jong Il's personal sushi chef apparently.

I agree with what you've said, especially about the enemy of my enemy being my friend. That's what it reeks of to me. I mean, a lot of the time I'll ask them why they support North Korea and I'll get a response back about how bad the US is.

But isn't a blunder like supporting a dictator for such a stupid reason actually despicable? I mean surely people like the folks I named on Youtube know deep down that they're supporting a guy who has his own media glorify him, and that's wrong. It just seems disgusting to me that they must know, but they feign ignorance and meanwhile the people living through this shit suffer.

[Susurrus]

I would say that having his own media glorify him is the least of his offenses...

[CommieTroll]

I remember some threads I was posting on awhile which were basically some users (thankfully banned now) posting mindless crap about the DPRK e.g New fruit factory opened in North Korea, Our Dear Leader visits a bread factory etc. Probably trolls but I think that most people that defend North Korea sound more deranged than extreme fascists

[Tifosi]

Stalinists crave relevence.

"We are the largest revolutionary movement around"

"We have led loads of successful revolutions"

"We got 100,000 votes in the last election"

Etc.

And the one they love the most, "Stalin defeated the Nazis!"

Their hunt for relevence leads them to some funny places like supporting any despot that says "screw America" or something to that affect. Thankfully, nobody does care about them.

[JoeySteel]

Pathetic flailing

[Tim Cornelis]

They truly baffle me. No one can explain what motivates these people. How...? Why? What? It's depressing really.

They are the very much like conspiracy theorists who believe aliens created the world and everything the media says is lies (http://truthism.com/). Their only arguments are fallacies and assumptions without evidence.

They are bound to exist, but it's still depressing.

[JoeySteel]

Go find a capitalist forum to post on. You seem to be saying: I saw YouTube videos from the DPRK, and they were not like I expect videos to be in my imagined reality, therefore I will call everyone idiots. As I said before, pathetic.

[Rooster]

Go find a capitalist forum to post on. You seem to be saying: I saw YouTube videos from the DPRK, and they were not like I expect videos to be in my imagined reality, therefore I will call everyone idiots. As I said before, pathetic.

Wait. What are you saying?

[JoeySteel]

Not at all. I'm saying the OP said that he watched some YouTube videos from the DPRK, and the videos were different than what he thinks is good, or something like that, therefore he is calling everyone idiots for having solidarity with the DPRK. Pretty ignorant if you ask me.

[Rooster]

Not at all. I'm saying the OP said that he watched some YouTube videos from the DPRK, and the videos were different than what he thinks is good, or something like that, therefore he is calling everyone idiots for having solidarity with the DPRK. Pretty ignorant if you ask me.

The OP is calling the people who support North Korea idiots . Not that the videos displayed things that were contrary to what the OP thought.

[JoeySteel]

The OP is calling the people who support North Korea idiots . Not that the videos displayed things that were contrary to what the OP thought.

I never said that the videos went against the OPs expectations. I said that he is implying that he watched videos, and for whatever reason thinks they are not good, and that therefore people in solidarity with the DPRK are all idiots. It's not an argument and this is just a trash thread. If he wants to slander leftists there are plenty of places to do it.

Edit: I used the phrase 'imagined reality' because the OP seems to be implying that he knows how videos on YouTube SHOULD be in his heart of hearts, but that the DPRK videos were not how he imagined YouTube videos SHOULD be, therefore he can kick and scream and call people names.

[thesadmafioso]

I never said that the videos went against the OPs expectations. I said that he is implying that he watched videos, and for whatever reason thinks they are not good, and that therefore people in solidarity with the DPRK are all idiots. It's not an argument and this is just a trash thread. If he wants to slander leftists there are plenty of places to do it.

Edit: I used the phrase 'imagined reality' because the OP seems to be implying that he knows how videos on YouTube SHOULD be in his heart of hearts, but that the DPRK videos were not how he imagined YouTube videos SHOULD be, therefore he can kick and scream and call people names.


I'm saying the OP said that he watched some YouTube videos from the DPRK, and the videos were different than what he thinks is good, or something like that

Wait, what? Perhaps you should clarify what exactly it is that you are trying to say, as right now your just seem to be having an argument with yourself.

[JoeySteel]

Wait, what? Perhaps you should clarify what exactly it is that you are trying to say, as right now your just seem to be having an argument with yourself.

Nope... there seems to be confusion over the minor issue of whether I said the OP EXPECTED videos from the DPRK to be up his alley. I expect he did not. Nonetheless my argument stands. OP watches from YouTubes from the DPRK, he thinks these are very bad, because they don't match his idea of how Koreans should make YouTube videos, I guess, and he throws a hissy fit about how everyone are idiots for having solidarity with the DPRK. I repeat, hardly an argument, and hardly a good reason for a thread.

[The Douche]

Nope... there seems to be confusion over the minor issue of whether I said the OP EXPECTED videos from the DPRK to be up his alley. I expect he did not. Nonetheless my argument stands. OP watches from YouTubes from the DPRK, he thinks these are very bad, because they don't match his idea of how Koreans should make YouTube videos, I guess, and he throws a hissy fit about how everyone are idiots for having solidarity with the DPRK. I repeat, hardly an argument, and hardly a good reason for a thread.

No, the OP saw youtube videos of people in the west supporting the DPRK, and doesn't understand why anybody would support the DPRK. And he's saying it is foolish to support or stand in solidarity with the DPRK, because it is a repressive, authoritarian, militaristic regime.

[JoeySteel]

No, the OP saw youtube videos of people in the west supporting the DPRK, and doesn't understand why anybody would support the DPRK. And he's saying it is foolish to support or stand in solidarity with the DPRK, because it is a repressive, authoritarian, militaristic regime.

You clearly have trouble reading. Yes, the OP saw videos of "people in the west" supporting the DPRK and didn't like it. His reasons seem to be that he saw some Korean YouTube videos and these were very bad to him. And some chef said some things I guess. Therefore he will throw a tantrum against people in solidarity with the DPRK. It's not worth the freaking kilobytes it's hogging on the internet. There are plenty of threads available about Korea that don't start with a flailing child insulting and slandering people.

[The Douche]

You clearly have trouble reading. Yes, the OP saw videos of "people in the west" supporting the DPRK and didn't like it. His reasons seem to be that he saw some Korean YouTube videos and these were very bad to him. And some chef said some things I guess. Therefore he will throw a tantrum against people in solidarity with the DPRK. It's not worth the freaking kilobytes it's hogging on the internet. There are plenty of threads available about Korea that don't start with a flailing child insulting and slandering people.

You're the only one throwing a tantrum, boss.;)

[thesadmafioso]

Nope... there seems to be confusion over the minor issue of whether I said the OP EXPECTED videos from the DPRK to be up his alley. I expect he did not. Nonetheless my argument stands. OP watches from YouTubes from the DPRK, he thinks these are very bad, because they don't match his idea of how Koreans should make YouTube videos, I guess, and he throws a hissy fit about how everyone are idiots for having solidarity with the DPRK. I repeat, hardly an argument, and hardly a good reason for a thread.

What argument is that, exactly? Your point is entirely circumstantial and dependent upon non existent evidence. All you have done is forwarded a baseless accusation fabricated by yourself, one designed to support your poorly developed defense of North Korea.

This is nothing short of sheer ad hominem, it is not an argument which still stands.

[Obs]

I think JoeySteel may be high.

[JoeySteel]

?? Nope.. just annoyed at such a terrible thread. I fail to see how I used ad hominem or a baseless accusation as thesadmafioso said. The OP in fact is the one calling people "idiots" and "retards" and I tried to show that he has no argument and is just insulting people. He made the logical leap from saying DPRK YouTube videos don't seem "free" to him, and that an alleged former chef made some accusation, to accusing people of being "retarded."

[ZeroNowhere]

?? Nope.. just annoyed at such a terrible thread.
Well, you reap what you sow, Joey.

[Streetwaves]

?? Nope.. just annoyed at such a terrible thread. I fail to see how I used ad hominem or a baseless accusation as thesadmafioso said. The OP in fact is the one calling people "idiots" and "retards" and I tried to show that he has no argument and is just insulting people. He made the logical leap from saying DPRK YouTube videos don't seem "free" to him, and that an alleged former chef made some accusation, to accusing people of being "retarded."

I'm afraid you're missing the parts of my posts where I name some reasons for thinking of them as idiots and retards. There are hundreds more, but I just named some very safe and uncontroversial ones so that I wouldn't be accused of falling for western propaganda. I can't help but think of these people that way, because I'm highly annoyed with any person willing to overlook (I believe knowingly) atrocities going on in a country for ideological reasons.

I think I explained my motivation for posting quite well. I'm pleased that most of the response has been in agreement with me, but I fully expected to be argued with by people like the ones I described who happen to post on this forum. Looks like we may have found one, but he doesn't want to have a direct confrontation?

I'll admit, I normally hope to have discussions where I don't call people names. But incredible displays of ignorance and especially, in the case at least of the two people I "talked to" on Youtube, the unwillingness to even hear the facts or be forced to respond to them is really telling. It tells me that they probably know full-well that they're wrong, but they'd like to continue supporting the oppression of people so that they can claim adherence to some sort of ism that makes them special.

Sorry if I offended you in any way, but don't tell me to go post on some capitalist forum. I can assure you I fit in here somewhere politically.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

It's not a terrible thread.

JoeySteel can't really answer why there are a few dozen people (At most) in the UK who glorify the DPRK, because deep down he/she knows that such a position is out of touch with reality and with the working class of the DPRK, and that essentially the DPRK is defended from the 'A or B' viewpoint employed by the Stalinist left on many questions. They essentially like to separate everything into good v bad, which is inherently un-Marxist in its characterisation of the fluidity of events. Thus, because the DPRK is a self-proclaimed enclave of anti-imperialism and, more jingoistically specifically anti-American, the hangers-on to old Uncle Joe lap it up.:rolleyes:

[MarxSchmarx]

But isn't a blunder like supporting a dictator for such a stupid reason actually despicable? I mean surely people like the folks I named on Youtube know deep down that they're supporting a guy who has his own media glorify him, and that's wrong. It just seems disgusting to me that they must know, but they feign ignorance and meanwhile the people living through this shit suffer.

I agree but lets be honest the left also has its share of less than laudatory human beings among it. Again, "you can fool some of the people all the time". Moreover, they are decidedly echoing Winston Churchill when he said "If Hitler invaded hell, I'd like to say a few words on behalf of the Devil". The important point is that it's not really ignorance - it's that they simply mirror patterns of bourgeois thought.

Placed in their historical contexts, present-day defenders of the DPRK are no more problematic to the left than, say, the supporters of Robespierre's terror among the American republicans in the 1790s. Their anti-materialist rants are frankly irrelevant to the broader movement of history.

I'm not defending those on the left who glorify the DPRK. But rather, I want to suggest to real leftist activists that all principled movements have to deal with the legacies of the prevailing moral sentiment. Cynicism on behalf of the world's most abhorrent regime reflects lingering rightist ideology rather than anything concrete about the pros/cons of a relict of Stalinist realpolitik.