Reactionary Chatter XXIX - Almost The Naughty One

[Sasha]

the faster you lot post, the faster we get to the dirty bits.....

[Bud Struggle]

Dirty.....mmmmmm. :)

[PhoenixAsh]

CoTR- now if the taco was accompanied with pretzels you'd be in seventh heaven?
:lol:


Pretzel flavored or filled M&M's if I remember correctly

:)

We can dress up the Taco anyway we want.

Now...about the rabbit with the high hat? Anybody seen it?? Because I had some suggestions and I have now disposed of the queen of hearts...but the rabbit seems to have disappeared again....

[Le Libérer]

Pretzel flavored or filled M&M's if I remember correctly

:)

We can dress up the Taco anyway we want.

Now...about the rabbit with the high hat? Anybody seen it?? Because I had some suggestions and I have now disposed of the queen of hearts...but the rabbit seems to have disappeared again....

Ok. Its official. I'm in love. ;)

Post note. You bring that high hat and I promise you I will catch a rabbit.

[ComradeMan]

The title of this episode is heretical.... :(

[StockholmSyndrome]

http://pete.com/files/photos/revolution.jpg

[Ele'ill]

Well if Bud Struggle travels again we might never see the next one.

[Agent Ducky]

But I don't WANT to get to the dirty bits. I'm just an innocent little ducky. ;-;

Lol
Yay first page :D

[PhoenixAsh]

WnzlbyTZsQY

goodnight revleft...sleep tight. Sweet dreams...or horrible, horrible nightmares....whatever you want

[Islamosocialist]

I'm still not sure what the purpose of this one is, so: shameless tourism promotion. I assure you'll all get the same welcome as Angeline Jolie in the video below.

The city that started WWI. ;) The most beautiful little city in the world, I think--but I'm biased!

http://i55.tinypic.com/2hgctnn.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/20gmm2e.jpg http://i55.tinypic.com/s0z8sn.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/2i9tj6r.jpg

RlvLjb1k0hA

[Islamosocialist]

goodnight revleft...sleep tight. Sweet dreams...or horrible, horrible nightmares....whatever you want

Hahaha! I love this!

[ComradeMan]

LOL I found this site that makes anagrams out of words you enter...

The first one that came up for ComradeMan was "A Commander"...:cool: or Mad Romance....

So I tried other usernames here....

Bud Struggle- Tubs Gurgled
Hindsight- Hid Things
La Sombra- Lamas Orb
Skooma Addict - Coma Toad Skid
:D

http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/index.html

There are others here:-

http://ingesanagram.appspot.com/
http://www.deanjackson.dj/nameanagram/ (http://www.deanjackson.dj/nameanagram/index.php?n=comrademan)

[Revolution starts with U]

Ok so my name is too long to do, so I just did U Revolution. The best I got was "Love I outrun"

[Landsharks eat metal]

Ok so my name is too long to do, so I just did U Revolution. The best I got was "Love I outrun"
No it's not! I tried ComradeMan's third link and got TO VIRTUOUS WIT ENTHRALS for you, which then anagrammed to UNLAVISH WIT TO TORTURES.
Mine were DEATH KNELL AS A SMART and A THANKLESS, MAD ALERT.

I think this is my first ever post in a Reactionary Chatter thread.:lol:

[ComradeMan]

No it's not! I tried ComradeMan's third link and got TO VIRTUOUS WIT ENTHRALS for you, which then anagrammed to UNLAVISH WIT TO TORTURES.
Mine were DEATH KNELL AS A SMART and A THANKLESS, MAD ALERT.

I think this is my first ever post in a Reactionary Chatter thread.:lol:


Mad Alert sounds pretty cool and @RSWU- Unlavish tortures is quite cool too... in a dark sort of way.

[PhoenixAsh]

antitrust hollow virtues.
antivirus hollow stutter

Naaah...your name is not too long for anagrams.

[PhoenixAsh]

No it's not! I tried ComradeMan's third link and got TO VIRTUOUS WIT ENTHRALS for you, which then anagrammed to UNLAVISH WIT TO TORTURES.
Mine were DEATH KNELL AS A SMART and A THANKLESS, MAD ALERT.

I think this is my first ever post in a Reactionary Chatter thread.:lol:


Welcome...you are totally living up to our expectations of conversational level we have going on here... :D:lol: Warning though...do not use big words. We are easilly confisc...confuca...contra....conivers...confuse.. ... baffled....yeah thats it. Baffled. We are easilly baffled.

[PhoenixAsh]

the faster you lot post, the faster we get to the dirty bits.....


Welll....right now they are not making much of an effort... Not even page 2 yet... :rolleyes: Bunch of slackers if yhou ask me.

Probably they are building up suspense. :lol:

[Bud Struggle]

Welcome...you are totally living up to our expectations of conversational level we have going on here... :D:lol:

With that, he should be banned!

[Bud Struggle]

Oh, did I even mention to you folks that I am an expert at playing the Flamingo guitar?

[ComradeMan]

Oh, did I even mention to you folks that I am an expert at playing the Flamingo guitar?


Flamenco.... Bud.... Flamenco....! :crying:

Unless you mean this http://birdcapo.com/Flamingo.html

[Bud Struggle]

Flamenco.... Bud.... Flamenco....! :crying:

No Flamingo:

http://stormcustomguitars.biz/wp-content/plank_ph1.jpg


I set you up for that one. :D :D :D!

[Skooma Addict]

Oh, did I even mention to you folks that I am an expert at playing the Flamingo guitar?

YOu arn

[Skooma Addict]

wha wha wha wha whasted

[Bud Struggle]

Actually I play classical guitar--only when I was older did I learn the hot women (and men--not that I care about them, but it's a Commie site and I have to be PC) were dancing their little hearts out to flaminco guitar players while I was playing to old ladies (and old men--PC. ;) )

[ComradeMan]

no flamingo:

I set you up for that one. :d :d :d!

lol!!! :D

[Skooma Addict]

lol!!! :d

jajajaja. You from Pakistan or something?

[Bud Struggle]

jajajaja. You from Pakistan or something?

Be nice. :cursing:

MY daughter's playing this as I write--kind of shaking up the whole house.

e4x_mXNJ-3w

[ComradeMan]

jajajaja. You from Pakistan or something?

What's that supposed to mean... testa di cazzo?

[Bud Struggle]

What's that supposed to mean... testa di cazzo?

He's drunk. :cool:

[Ele'ill]

What is going on in here- this isn't supposed to be happening. RC often reminds me of that feeling you get right before something horrible happens- that brief surge in adrenalin before a bad car accident or falling down a flight of stairs/off a ladder/roof, being stabbed/shot etc..

[Ele'ill]

jajajaja. You from Pakistan or something?

Care to explain this? (you're going to want to do a REALLY good job)

[Bud Struggle]

What is going on in here- this isn't supposed to be happening. RC often reminds me of that feeling you get right before something horrible happens- that brief surge in adrenalin before a bad car accident or falling down a flight of stairs/off a ladder/roof, being stabbed/shot etc..

As a famous philosopher once said:

"One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch."


And speaking of drinking alone--I'm doing that as we speak. Moet "White Star."

[StockholmSyndrome]

Be nice. :cursing:

MY daughter's playing this as I write--kind of shaking up the whole house.

e4x_mXNJ-3w

I played the Bydlo solo on the euphonium with my university's orchestra when they did the entire suite. So basically I sat there for like an hour on stage, played Bydlo which is about 4 minutes long, and then sat another hour while they played the rest of the suite. It was all worth it though because I got to stand up and bow with the soloists when it was over. :D

[Ele'ill]

As a famous philosopher once said:

"One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch."

That depends on what's making the apple bad- I'm sure there are molds that would transfer from apple to apple and infest the entire batch.





And speaking of drinking alone--I'm doing that as we speak. Moet "White Star."

In about four hours I'm gonna be drinking beer and Vicodin.

[Ballyfornia]

Ha my an anagram of my real name is Large Fag Hill

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

The expression refering to bad apples has changed meaning with the way people use it.

It used to mean that a few bad apples would spoil the whole bunch, as Mariel says infection will spread, and that some bad apples make the whole bunch worthless.

However, over the course of time it has come to mean something else entirely, that a few bad apples shouldn't be thought of as spoiling the whole bunch.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

“Texans, on the other hand, elect folks like me. You know the type, the kind of guy who goes jogging in the morning, packing a Ruger .380 with laser sights and loaded with hollow-point bullets, and shoots a coyote that is threatening his daughter’s dog.”

Rick Perry (real quote!)

[Ele'ill]

God damnit- the Vicodin is 5/500 so I'm not really interested in mixing it with alcohol due to the potential liver problems it could create. Do I drink or take the Vicodin?

[Bud Struggle]

God damnit- the Vicodin is 5/500 so I'm not really interested in mixing it with alcohol due to the potential liver problems it could create. Do I drink or take the Vicodin?

NO!!!! to the Vicodin. (Even though I really don't know what it is. :) )

[Ele'ill]

The Vicodin is a 5mg hydrocodone 500mg acetaminophen (at this dosage) pain killer. I injured my ACL and am in pain.

[#FF0000]

today i discovered that my brother is a lot like Larry David.

[Bud Struggle]

The Vicodin is a 5mg hydrocodone 500mg acetaminophen (at this dosage) pain killer. I injured my ACL and am in pain.

Sorry, I thought it was something more "recreational."

[Ele'ill]

Sorry, I thought it was something more "recreational."


Well it can be but we can't talk about that here. Parachutes :drool:

Also I find it hard to believe that you have never heard of Vicodin and it comes across as a bit suspicious. By parachutes I mean actual parachutes, Bud, as in sky diving. Separate conversation I started there.

[Le Libérer]

God damnit- the Vicodin is 5/500 so I'm not really interested in mixing it with alcohol due to the potential liver problems it could create. Do I drink or take the Vicodin?
That aint nothing, All the vicodan will do is keep you from getting drunk.

I take 60 mlg of oxycontin a day and drink Makers Mark. After a few hours of that, I will let someone else drive me though.

You'll be okay.

[PhoenixAsh]

Something must be done...too many words...this thread:



http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/Graphics/017-0623131409-burning-parachute.jpg

[Ele'ill]

Oxycotin doesn't have the acetaminophen in it. All Vicodin varieties do. It can really mess your liver up badly especially if you drink moderately as it is. It can at the very least make for a very unpleasant hangover.

[Le Libérer]

Oxycotin doesn't have the acetaminophen in it. All Vicodin varieties do. It can really mess your liver up badly especially if you drink moderately as it is. It can at the very least make for a very unpleasant hangover.
I am aware of that. But a couple of times wont hurt you, it will if its long term. I was on percocet for 4 years and drank and my liver functions are fine.

Ironic its the over the counter shit that will kill you.

[PhoenixAsh]

milk thistle will help protecting the liver

As does ALA...which can be found in a variety of products amongst others: walnuts. Which goes nice as a snack with the beer.

[Ele'ill]

Should I even bother with the Vicodin- being only 5mg? (it's 5mg hydrocodone )

I think getting drunk will take the pain away better. (leg pain)

[Le Libérer]

Should I even bother with the Vicodin- being only 5mg?

I think getting drunk will take the pain away better.
Hell, I would take 2 and drink, but that just me. :)

[Bud Struggle]

I take 60 mlg of oxycontin a day .

So does Rush Limbaugh!~:D

And Mari3L, besides for whatever I took that time I had pneumonia I never took anything other than aspirin or Iblprophin in my like.

I'm not a big doctor go-er to-er.

[Ele'ill]

I'm not a big doctor go-er to-er.

This is actually a clever question.

[Le Libérer]

So does Rush Limbaugh!~:D

And Mari3L, besides for whatever I took that time I had pneumonia I never took anything other than aspirin or Iblprophin in my like.

I'm not a big doctor go-er to-er.
Rush Limbaugh wasnt in an accident that technically left him with a broken neck.
I was. I also had cancer. Thats a little different that recreational use, Bud.

[Bud Struggle]

Rush Limbaugh wasnt in an accident that technically left him with a broken neck.
I was. I also had cancer. Thats a little different that recreational use, Bud.

It was kidding a little. And Rush did have back problems after an operation that got him addicted. Sorry for making light of your problems.

[PhoenixAsh]

O cool...Bud learned kētou in China..... :)

[Le Libérer]

I've misplaced my watermelon flavored chapstick. Theres no reason to go on. :crying:

[Landsharks eat metal]

I've misplaced my watermelon flavored chapstick. Theres no reason to go on. :crying:
I feel your pain.:(
I miss chapstick. I used to be obsessed with Lip Smackers as a kid. Now mine are really old and smell weird.

[#FF0000]

man viruses and malware are not very subtle

[StockholmSyndrome]

Should I even bother with the Vicodin- being only 5mg? (it's 5mg hydrocodone )

I think getting drunk will take the pain away better. (leg pain)

Three words: cold water extraction

[#FF0000]

jesus christ why is 100% of my CPU being used in safemode

welp its been fun guys. i'll be back when i reinstall everything

[Bud Struggle]

jesus christ why is 100% of my CPU being used in safemode


Thats wht you get for saying bad things about the Catholic clergy. :D :D :D

[ComradeMan]

Thats wht you get for saying bad things about the Catholic clergy. :D :D :D


N8NF8jExTcs

[#FF0000]

Thats wht you get for saying bad things about the Catholic clergy. :D :D :D

god is striking my motherboard down

[Le Libérer]

Thats wht you get for saying bad things about the Catholic clergy. :D :D :D

Oh you mean baby rapers?

[ComradeMan]

Oh you mean baby rapers?

Not all of them.... (at least I hope).

It's vile and disgusting. However here are two articles that are also interesting, one is a catholic article but is sourced and the other from a British newspaper:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/mar/11/catholic-abuse-priests

http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm

[Le Libérer]

I worked for the Catholic Diosese (briefly) in the tribunal where all their dirty little secrets are kept. The Catholic Church is nothing but a pedo baby raping thug ring. Ethically I had to remove myself from it.

[ComradeMan]

I worked for the Catholic Diosese (briefly) in the tribunal where all their dirty little secrets are kept. The Catholic Church is nothing but a pedo baby raping thug ring. Ethically I had to remove myself from it.

That's awful. Did you report it or take any kind of action?

[Bud Struggle]

The Catholic Church is nothing but a pedo baby raping thug ring. Ethically I had to remove myself from it.

It's like any other generalization. If you watch "Cops" all day you have a very distorted view of what Blacks are like. If you watch "Real Housewives of New Jersey" you have a bad idea of what the Middle Class is like.

There are good and bad in very goup of people. My daughter (17) was at the Catholic Church's World Youth day in Madrid (first time I let my little baby go to Europe by me or her mom) (in what used to be Anarchist Spain ;)) and she saw no problems with thousands of teenagers assembling for a week of wonderful activities and prayer.

Saying the Chatolic Church is a baby raping thug ring is like saying all Communists are Pol Potists--there are always a couple of people that do he wrong things.

[PhoenixAsh]

Today I assisted the whole day in group therapy confrontation sessions. Which included a broad spectrum of issues...but this time several had to do with agression and rage...mostly with not being able to express it or to let go.

I know the therapist composed this group like this because I was pressent and she asked me for several reasons...one of which is physical strength and general size and the other one being able to quickly assert to development of emotions and being able to influence and manipulate them....and because I am able to quickly get a intuitive feeling for somebodies deeper emotional and psychological problems (the ones which are hidden under the masks and walls we putb on and build up).

So my job was to invoke rage and anger and at the same time keeping the anger from turning into outright violence....while at the same time emotionally supporting the needs of the clients and guarding the general safety of the other participants.

So now I am both physically and emotionally drained. And I am feeling like a tiny kitten on catnip....

Just wanted to share that.

[PhoenixAsh]

Also....

http://www.roadfood.com/Photos/10830.jpg

[Revolution starts with U]

Well, since the mods flamed the thread and then closed it down because it was starting to turn into a flame thread....
I vote "absolutely no confidence." With the exception of a few, I have no confidence in them personally, and have absolutely no confidence in the system as a whole. I think some mods are just trying to do their "jobs." But overall, it just seems like a big clique that stifles open debate, and is very petty when it comes to criticism.

[#FF0000]

Saying the Chatolic Church is a baby raping thug ring is like saying all Communists are Pol Potists--there are always a couple of people that do he wrong things.

Communists and the Police aren't monolithic institutions though. The Catholic Church is. I mean I'd like to go easy on it but considering its response to sexual abuse allegation is to do everything they can to cover it up and keep it quiet....

[ComradeMan]

Well, since the mods flamed the thread and then closed it down because it was starting to turn into a flame thread....
I vote "absolutely no confidence." With the exception of a few, I have no confidence in them personally, and have absolutely no confidence in the system as a whole. I think some mods are just trying to do their "jobs." But overall, it just seems like a big clique that stifles open debate, and is very petty when it comes to criticism.

I don't understand it really, because the poll was actually quite favourable to them. :confused: It's sad when you can't have a democratic discussion on things without some users feeling the need to flame too. :(

[Revolution starts with U]

Ya, and like all but 2 of the opening 10 or so posts were in favor of the mods.
I just think, personally, if you want to be democratic about it, weekly admin/mod surveys would be the way to go. If someone flames, do something individually. But everything good can come from a little constructive criticism.

[ComradeMan]

Ya, and like all but 2 of the opening 10 or so posts were in favor of the mods.
I just think, personally, if you want to be democratic about it, weekly admin/mod surveys would be the way to go. If someone flames, do something individually. But everything good can come from a little constructive criticism.

I didn't even see much evidence of serious flaming- a few harsh words but nothing compared to the levels of some of the flaming that happens.

Sam_B is wrong in asserting that it was just a flame bait thread and I am afraid I have to disagree with him. But anyway, now the thread's closed and there's no more debate they, including Sam_B, can carry on with their endless rounds of complaining, accusations and conspiracy theories in their hidden away forums and closed user groups. It's also interesting that the thread only began to flame when Sam_B started talking about it being a flame thread- despite the notice in the OP saying "No flaming please"- self-fulfilling prophecy.

What do we care? We're in OI- the most popular and perhaps democratic of the forums. ;)

[Bud Struggle]

I don't understand it really, because the poll was actually quite favourable to them. :confused: It's sad when you can't have a democratic discussion on things without some users feeling the need to flame too. :(

The Admins and Mods do, exactly like I said, what would be expected of a Communist administration. What's the suprise?

[Le Libérer]

Communists and the Police aren't monolithic institutions though. The Catholic Church is. I mean I'd like to go easy on it but considering its response to sexual abuse allegation is to do everything they can to cover it up and keep it quiet....
My very first partner was a alter boy in the early 60s and he was raped repeatedly by Catholic priests. Just because it was recently exposed doesnt mean it hasnt been happening for years and years. Like I said, its a pedo ring.

The horror stories he lived through are unachievable. And was happening in every city in the US. He was told by that godless fuckwit he was Jesus on Earth and if he didnt do what he was told he would burn in hell. He was brutally raped at 12 until he was 15. He finally told his parents and was then punished for lying about a man of Gd.

I really cannot even go into the permanent psychological scarring it has had on him. He tried to commit suicide 3 times from 12 -15 years old.
Anyone who thinks that Catholic pedo priests arent the norm are just lying to themselves. And even if it were just 10% of them torturing children, I still wouldnt be associated with any organization that rapes children and oppresses women. I had to leave. Everything about the church is set up to control the masses and perpetuate the machine.

[RGacky3]

If the Catholic Church was not a religious organization, and instead say a motercycle club, that repeatedly covored up and supported pedophiles, it would be under the RICO act pretty quickly.

[Bud Struggle]

My very first partner was a alter boy in the early 60s and he was raped repeatedly by Catholic priests. Just because it was recently exposed doesnt mean it hasnt been happening for years and years. Like I said, its a pedo ring.

The horror stories he lived through are unachievable. And was happening in every city in the US. He was told by that godless fuckwit he was Jesus on Earth and if he didnt do what he was told he would burn in hell. He was brutally raped at 12 until he was 15. He finally told his parents and was then punished for lying about a man of Gd.

I really cannot even go into the permanent psychological scarring it has had on him. He tried to commit suicide 3 times from 12 -15 years old.
Anyone who thinks that Catholic pedo priests arent the norm are just lying to themselves. And even if it were just 10% of them torturing children, I still wouldnt be associated with any organization that rapes children and oppresses women. I had to leave. Everything about the church is set up to control the masses and perpetuate the machine.

So after all of that why did you become a Catholic?

[Le Libérer]

So after all of that why did you become a Catholic?
Because just like you, I thought it was an isolated incident. It was years later (right before the Catholic priest scandal happened ) that I converted. I was a Catholic for a year, when I went to work at the Diocese. Then it unfolded right ni my lap the seriousness and just how common Catholic priest pedophilia was. It alone was enough to close that door on my Catholicism. I might add, it aided in my radicalism.

[Le Libérer]

Wendy O and the Plasmatics
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HzTyharzFD8/Tf-arvOt4XI/AAAAAAAACY0/lvXfosQPJho/s1600/plasmatics.jpg

http://s11.allstarpics.net/images/orig/k/0/k025i5icyvlnvyn5.jpg

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTQXzLaABeZyrPi88Ywm1zfQz3KfcuYG n2Zx1FKMNygRog6TDHH

pBd26f1XoyY

[Bud Struggle]

I might add, it aided in my radicalism.

Really? Then why did you let an apologist for paedophilia if not an actual paedo himself become an Admin and post on RevLeft for years and years selling that stuff in the name of Communism?

Maybe RevLeft has more in common with the Catholic Church then you think.

While I'm a Catholic--I would never harbor or defend any person Catholic or not that actually does such acts. I think it's hypocritical that you choose the peodophiles you defend or dislike. I know the person in question isn't on your favorite list now--but he was for year and years.

[PhoenixAsh]

Really? Then why did you let an apologist for paedophilia if not an actual paedo himself become an Admin and post on RevLeft for years and years selling that stuff in the name of Communism?

Maybe RevLeft has more in common with the Catholic Church then you think.

You really, really think that is the same or even equatable with decades (and probably centuries) of structural and widespread institutionalised childabuse which was covered up again and agian and again? Really Bud? Really?

edit: O really Bud...you try to claim the high road here? Really want to play the religion game?

Lets dance...

You believe in and follow a religion which holy book advocate Rape, Murder, Childabuse, Torture and Slavery. And whose institutions have for decades abused children and covered up the fact throughtout the hierarchy and got active pedophiles, pederasts and child molesters and even murderers off the hook? Yet you are outraged about one AOC advocate in our ranks?

Judges 21:10-24
Numbers 31:7-18
Deuteronomy 20:14; 21:10 & 22:28
Samuel 12:11
Judges 5:30
Exodus 21:7
Zecheraiah 14:1
Timothy 6:1
Gen 37:12-36
1 King 3:16-27
Isaiah 13:16
Ezekiel 9:6
Matthew 2:13-18
Joel 3:3


And I could go on and on and on .....


Lets face it Bud...you are a Catholic. When it comes to morality you have the least right to judge anybody about anything. Your entire religion is founded on justifying the most morally depraved acts on earth and sauce them in a stin of Deity endorsed duty.

Now I do not give a fuck about wether or not you believe in God. But if you describe yourself as a Catholic and then try to speak out against acts or immorality and try to point at the pslinter in the eyes of others...yeah...well basically we are going to have to call you on hypocracy there for ignoring the entire lumberyard in yours.

[Bud Struggle]

You really, really think that is the same or even equatable with decades (and probably centuries) of structural and widespread institutionalised childabuse which was covered up again and agian and again? Really Bud? Really?

Cover up for one or cover up for 100, what's the difference? I'm against in in the institution of the Church or in private life. And while it was a problem in the Church (and may still be) it's something that is in all institutions. ComradeMan posted a couple of links to that.

I have never personally defended any sort of action like that. I think it's been don here on RevLeft. I personally discussed the topic with the former poster in question and he made quite an argument for letting 13 year olds make sexual decisions for themselves.

And he wasn't a random poster--he was well situated in the RevLeft pantheon for years.

The problem is, and I'm not making excuses for the Church or RevLeft, but when you know the person--and he's a friend or whatever--it is easy (though wrong) to make excuses for them. That's what happened with the Church and with RevLeft.

[Bud Struggle]

You really, really think that is the same or even equatable with decades (and probably centuries) of structural and widespread institutionalised childabuse which was covered up again and agian and again? Really Bud? Really?

edit: O really Bud...you try to claim the high road here? Really want to play the religion game?

Lets dance...

You believe in and follow a religion which holy book advocate Rape, Murder, Childabuse, Torture and Slavery. And whose institutions have for decades abused children and covered up the fact throughtout the hierarchy and got active pedophiles, pederasts and child molesters and even murderers off the hook? Yet you are outraged about one AOC advocate in our ranks?

Judges 21:10-24
Numbers 31:7-18
Deuteronomy 20:14; 21:10 & 22:28
Samuel 12:11
Judges 5:30
Exodus 21:7
Zecheraiah 14:1
Timothy 6:1
Gen 37:12-36
1 King 3:16-27
Isaiah 13:16
Ezekiel 9:6
Matthew 2:13-18
Joel 3:3


And I could go on and on and on .....



Lets face it Bud...you are a Catholic. When it comes to morality you have the least right to judge anybody about anything. Your entire religion is founded on justifying the most morally depraved acts on earth and sauce them in a stin of Deity endorsed duty.


Now I do not give a fuck about wether or not you believe in God. But if you describe yourself as a Catholic and then try to speak out against acts or immorality and try to point at the pslinter in the eyes of others...yeah...well basically we are going to have to call you on hypocracy there for ignoring the entire lumberyard in yours.


You edited!

Fair enough. I'm not agreeing with any of that. Any more than you as a Communist are for what Pol Pot or Kim Il Sung does. I am against it in the Church or outside of the church. I'm not defending the Church where it was wrong--and child abuse is wrong, if done by priest or by Communists. I'm no more a representitive of Catholicism than you are a representative of Communism

(Edit: Line deletede. I made a mistake here.)

And As far as bring things up--I didn't bring up the subject except in a joke to FF.

[PhoenixAsh]

Cover up for one or cover up for 100, what's the difference? I'm against in in the institution of the Church or in private life. And while it was a problem in the Church (and may still be) it's something that is in all institutions. ComradeMan posted a couple of links to that.

I have never personally defended any sort of action like that. I think it's been don here on RevLeft. I personally discussed the topic with the former poster in question and he made quite an argument for letting 13 year olds make sexual decisions for themselves.

And he wasn't a random poster--he was well situated in the RevLeft pantheon for years.

The problem is, and I'm not making excuses for the Church or RevLeft, but when you know the person--and he's a friend or whatever--it is easy (though wrong) to make excuses for them. That's what happened with the Church and with RevLeft.

I know perfectly well who you are refering to.

Several points:

There is a huge world of difference between advocating & debating and actually raping the children which are entrusted to your care. Something which the Catholic church has done structurally and which was covered up by church hierarchy which used the exact same bible you pray over to justify these acts.

There is also a huge territory between advocating AOC and actually forcing and scaring children in sexual acts...whats even more vile is by using the fear of eternal damnation to do it. Even you should understand that vast gap between the two.

But what you are doing is singling out ONE incident to change the arrows away from the hordes of actual real life child molesters and rapists which hide and make a carreer (even though the acts were known) in your church.

And yes...there is a huge world of difference, Bud, in one AOC advocate (thought you were the valiant defender of free speech by the way) which are NOT covered up by communism as an integral idea of their philosophy and the child rapists and molesters who were sturcturally protected and kept from presecution and were ALLOWED to continue to rape and molest children. The church structurally defended these people up to and including pressuring and threatening families and victims with eternal damnation...and forcing them by using bibklical quotes and texts to forego civil procedures or seeking reparations or punishment for those who destroyed lives with the sanctityy of the church.

[Revolution starts with U]

I think from actively molesting and/or raping children to suggesting teenagers be able to make sexual decisions for themselves is quite a stretch. Idk the person, or situation, but if thats all he was doing, I really wouldnt equate the two at all.

[Skooma Addict]

What do you call two Chinese lesbians in the rain without umbrellas?

[Bud Struggle]

I know perfectly well who you are refering to. Fine.


Several points:

There is a huge world of difference between advocating & debating and actually raping the children which are entrusted to your care. Something which the Catholic church has done structurally and which was covered up by church hierarchy which used the exact same bible you pray over to justify these acts. Oddly--Catholics aren't that into the Bible. Yes there is a world of difference, but neither should be tolerated.


There is also a huge territory between advocating AOC and actually forcing and scaring children in sexual acts...whats even more vile is by using the fear of eternal damnation to do it. Even you should understand that vast gap between the two. I think this is the same as our first point.


But what you are doing is singling out ONE incident to change the arrows away from the hordes of actual real life child molesters and rapists which hide and make a carreer (even though the acts were known) in your church. Yes a lot of bad acts were committed--and there were a lot of bad people in the Catholic church--I don't make any excuse for them. They should be prosecuted and put in prison for their acts. People in the Church did those things--and they are responsible. IT IS a big church, a billion people and there are some bad people that come abord.


And yes...there is a huge world of difference, Bud, in one AOC advocate (thought you were the valiant defender of free speech by the way) which are NOT covered up by communism as an integral idea of their philosophy and the child rapists and molesters who were sturcturally protected and kept from presecution and were ALLOWED to continue to rape and molest children. The church structurally defended these people up to and including pressuring and threatening families and victims with eternal damnation...and forcing them by using bibklical quotes and texts to forego civil procedures or seeking reparations or punishment for those who destroyed lives with the sanctityy of the church. (FYI--I defend free speech from government control--but not personal or private responsibility. I have to right to fire anyone that works for me that says anything I don't like. I don't think he should go to jail.) As far as the church goes--those that did things wrong should go to jail. If there was a group or structure that did things wrong it should be expunged and changed. Bad people have to be removed in any organization.

[Bud Struggle]

I think from actively molesting and/or raping children to suggesting teenagers be able to make sexual decisions for themselves is quite a stretch. Idk the person, or situation, but if thats all he was doing, I really wouldnt equate the two at all.

Actually the vast majority of the problem in the Catholic Church wasn't that priests raped kids--it was from priests having sex with middle teens and young teen boys.

[Sasha]

zcjsJBgNtpE

:confused::scared::lol:

[PhoenixAsh]

That saves a huge amount of time. :D

[PhoenixAsh]

Fine.

Oddly--Catholics aren't that into the Bible. Yes there is a world of difference, but neither should be tolerated.

The Catholic catechism states several issues very clearly:

Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God

It goes on to explain this.

The apostles left bishops as their successors and like jesus did upon them they gave them their own position of teaching authority. The authority and practice of the church is a living transmission accomplished through the holy spirit and is call called traidition. Both tradition and the holy scripture must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments and devotion.

That means that whatever the curch does...is considered to be part of the religion and needs to met with devotion and trust as much as the holy scripture.

Not only does this not allow for the position that the Bible is irrelevant and instead should be met with devotion. It also means that whatever the church does...is considered the teaching of God and part of the faith.


Though I am not an advocate or supporter of AOC I think that there is no viable argument to not have the debate and outright banish AOC discussions. Certainly given the history of AOC and the fact that we are now allowedd by the state to have sexual intercourse or perform sexual acts of intimacy from the age of 16, 18 instead of 21.

But wether or not you agree with the position on when somebody can be generally expected to make decisions about when they have voluntary sexual intercourse or not...the equation with AOC and actual abuse and rape and an official policy of covering it up is way past the mark.




Yes a lot of bad acts were committed--and there were a lot of bad people in the Catholic church--I don't make any excuse for them. They should be prosecuted and put in prison for their acts. People in the Church did those things--and they are responsible. IT IS a big church, a billion people and there are some bad people that come abord.

No. It is not a mere matter of some bad people. It is a conspiracy to cover this up which runs throughout the church hierarchy...up to and including the papal offices and official condoning and perpetuation of the acts by letting people stay in position and even promoting them to higher positions fully knowing what they were doing. It was widespread abuse.

It became official church policy not to expell or expose these people and by the edicts and dogma of the Catholic Church that then is the word and teaching of God....as I have shown by citing the catechism....and an integral part of the religion.



(FYI--I defend free speech from government control--but not personal or private responsibility. I have to right to fire anyone that works for me that says anything I don't like. I don't think he should go to jail.) As far as the church goes--those that did things wrong should go to jail. If there was a group or structure that did things wrong it should be expunged and changed. Bad people have to be removed in any organization.

If the hierarchy of the Church is changed...the Catholic faith will not continue. It is build in its very essence upon this hierarchy and its traditions and part of the dogma of Catholicism is the fact that the hierarchy is a direct continuation of the teachings of Jesus. Changing the hierarchy is unthinkable and impossible and without it Catholics would become Protestant.

And yes. You have that right to fire people. Something we commies really like to take away from you for a multitude of reasons.

But relevant to the argument at hand is that your power to fire people for what they say is something which limits free speech. It is in essence the proof that free speech does not exist...since it is punishment for expressing the thoughts and speech and basically not any different than government controll over it.

Your argumenst in favor of free speech then become nothing more than advocacy for a change of judge and arbiter on what is accepted and what is not and what should be punished and what not.

[Bud Struggle]

The Catholic catechism states several issues very clearly:

Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God

It goes on to explain this.

The apostles left bishops as their successors and like jesus did upon them they gave them their own position of teaching authority. The authority and practice of the church is a living transmission accomplished through the holy spirit and is call called traidition. Both tradition and the holy scripture must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments and devotion.

That means that whatever the curch does...is considered to be part of the religion and needs to met with devotion and trust as much as the holy scripture.

Not only does this not allow for the position that the Bible is irrelevant and instead should be met with devotion. It also means that whatever the church does...is considered the teaching of God and part of the faith. Certainly. And what the church teaches is very carefully put together and written down. It's not what any person or group of people in the church do. This stuff is written down in the Catichism of the Catholic Church. What certain priests and bishops did was outside the laws of the Catholic Church and should be punished by the correct legal authority.


Though I am not an advocate or supporter of AOC I think that there is no viable argument to not have the debate and outright banish AOC discussions. Certainly given the history of AOC and the fact that we are now allowedd by the state to have sexual intercourse or perform sexual acts of intimacy from the age of 16, 18 instead of 21. If you think we should have that debate, fine. I think that anyone who advocates having sex with minors is at best a problematical human being. If someone that was in my employ did such a thing he would be terminated immediately.


But wether or not you agree with the position on when somebody can be generally expected to make decisions about when they have voluntary sexual intercourse or not...the equation with AOC and actual abuse and rape and an official policy of covering it up is way past the mark. While actually abuse is certainly the worse thing--I think advocating such a thing is not too far behind--in the same way that murder is a bad thing and advocating murder is also bad, but not quite as bad.


No. It is not a mere matter of some bad people. It is a conspiracy to cover this up which runs throughout the church hierarchy...up to and including the papal offices and official condoning and perpetuation of the acts by letting people stay in position and even promoting them to higher positions fully knowing what they were doing. It was widespread abuse. It was widespread and it should be condemed. The people responsible should be brought to justice.


It became official church policy not to expell or expose these people and by the edicts and dogma of the Catholic Church that then is the word and teaching of God....as I have shown by citing the catechism....and an integral part of the religion. And that was wrong--your understanding how the word of God is being used is wrong. There were no edicts or dogmas involved. Crimes were committed there was a coverup and that's all.


If the hierarchy of the Church is changed...the Catholic faith will not continue. It is build in its very essence upon this hierarchy and its traditions and part of the dogma of Catholicism is the fact that the hierarchy is a direct continuation of the teachings of Jesus. Changing the hierarchy is unthinkable and impossible and without it Catholics would become Protestant. Not at all. The hierarchy changes all of the time. There were bad popes before, possibly a lot worse than they have now. Some good ones, too.


And yes. You have that right to fire people. Something we commies really like to take away from you for a multitude of reasons. Someday, maybe you'll take that right away. Or maybe not. Only time will tell. I honestly have no problem with a Communist future--if it's done properly.


But relevant to the argument at hand is that your power to fire people for what they say is something which limits free speech. It is in essence the proof that free speech does not exist...since it is punishment for expressing the thoughts and speech and basically not any different than government controll over it. I don't know how it works in your country but in the USA--the GOVERNMENT can't infringe on people's right to say anything. Private people can do as they will. As a business owner, I can do whatever I want with my property--and if someone says something that displeases me--well it is my property. But the person won't go to jail for saying whatever he said. I can't have him locked in irons like they did in the old days. And he can't have me locked in irons either.


Your argumenst in favor of free speech then become nothing more than advocacy for a change of judge and arbiter on what is accepted and what is not and what should be punished and what not. The point of free speech is that it keeps government from interfering with people saying what they want. What people do in their private dealings with each other has nothing to do with the government.

[#FF0000]

Really? Then why did you let an apologist for paedophilia if not an actual paedo himself become an Admin and post on RevLeft for years and years selling that stuff in the name of Communism

a DAMN SON

[PhoenixAsh]

Certainly. And what the church teaches is very carefully put together and written down. It's not what any person or group of people in the church do. This stuff is written down in the Catichism of the Catholic Church. What certain priests and bishops did was outside the laws of the Catholic Church and should be punished by the correct legal authority.

Actually now. The Catholic church did not think these people should be prosecuted...they did not even think these people should be removed from their function or position in which they were able to continue these acts. That was official Church policy and was internally justified by arguing that the Church is exempt from earthly laws and is only responsible to the laws of God.

And yes...it is exactly what the Church does that is important. The Church is indefectible. It is a strict believe expressed by two religions: The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. Though the Catholic church goes way beyond what the Orthodox church deems as indefectible.

As part of this indefectability of the Church are the edicts and canons for which the Church officially demands the supression of intelect and will. But that goes beyond this particular debate.


If you think we should have that debate, fine. I think that anyone who advocates having sex with minors is at best a problematical human being. If someone that was in my employ did such a thing he would be terminated immediately.

And hence you are hypocritical in your position of free speech. You do not believe in free speech and you do not believe it exists. You merely argue the point that other authroities limit the freedom of speech...namely subjective and random induviduals in higher power over the one expressing the speech rather than organised government who upholds roughly the same standards.


While actually abuse is certainly the worse thing--I think advocating such a thing is not too far behind--in the same way that murder is a bad thing and advocating murder is also bad, but not quite as bad.

And yet you do believe in a religion which is intrinsicaly linked with an institution and a holy scripture which does exactly these things.


It was widespread and it should be condemed. The people responsible should be brought to justice.

I think it goes beyond that. I think the catholic church is in fact a criminal organisation.



And that was wrong--your understanding how the word of God is being used is wrong. There were no edicts or dogmas involved. Crimes were committed there was a coverup and that's all.

No in fact. It has been proven in a considerable amount of court cases and investigations that the catholic church and the church hierarchy saw it as part of their devine Duty to NOT expose these people.

Besides that...the bible is considered the authority on the words and teachings of God...and the bible is full of rape, murder, torture and child abuse and even advocates such acts as executing the will of God.



Not at all. The hierarchy changes all of the time. There were bad popes before, possibly a lot worse than they have now. Some good ones, too.

The hierarchy does not change Bud. The hierarchy of the catholic church has been roughly the same for millenia with only minor changes. Puppets change...the hierarchy does not. When it does it usually leads to a schism.


I don't know how it works in your country but in the USA--the GOVERNMENT can't infringe on people's right to say anything. Private people can do as they will. As a business owner, I can do whatever I want with my property--and if someone says something that displeases me--well it is my property. But the person won't go to jail for saying whatever he said. I can't have him locked in irons like they did in the old days. And he can't have me locked in irons either.

The point of free speech is that it keeps government from interfering with people saying what they want. What people do in their private dealings with each other has nothing to do with the government.

No it hasn't but is does mean that free speech is not protected if you can punish somebody for expressing speech that is displeasing to you. In fact...you are doing exactly what you accuse the government of wanting to do: lording over the private speech and expression of thoughts of your employees like a despot....because it is your private property.

You created your own little empire in which you rule subjectively and exploit your workers by giving them unfair wages and extracting their suprolus value. Because that is how the system works for you and how you make the system work.

While you were off spending your profits you extracted from that hard work with your family in China...your workers have to be careful not to anger you in anyway by saying something you do not like.

[Bud Struggle]

Actually now. The Catholic church did not think these people should be prosecuted...they did not even think these people should be removed from their function or position in which they were able to continue these acts. That was official Church policy and was internally justified by arguing that the Church is exempt from earthly laws and is only responsible to the laws of God. That is a position they took. It wasn't a position written in stone by God. It was a mistaken opinion.


And yes...it is exactly what the Church does that is important. The Church is indefectible. It is a strict believe expressed by two religions: The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. Though the Catholic church goes way beyond what the Orthodox church deems as indefectible. No it is infallible ONLY in matters of faith--not matters of church practice. So it is infallible about the trinity--not in matters like if priests could marry (for example.)


As part of this indefectability of the Church are the edicts and canons for which the Church officially demands the supression of intelect and will. But that goes beyond this particular debate. Fine.


And hence you are hypocritical in your position of free speech. You do not believe in free speech and you do not believe it exists. You merely argue the point that other authroities limit the freedom of speech...namely subjective and random induviduals in higher power over the one expressing the speech rather than organised government who upholds roughly the same standards. No I believe in responsibility. I believe the owners of RevLeft (lets use them rather than me) have the right to limit the kind of speech they have on this forum. So if they don't want fascist--then they could limit the right of fascists to post on their forum. Now the fascist should be free to maybe start his own forum, but he could be limited to post on a forum owned by Commuists


I think it goes beyond that. I think the catholic church is in fact a criminal organisation. You can think what you like.


No in fact. It has been proven in a considerable amount of court cases and investigations that the catholic church and the church hierarchy saw it as part of their devine Duty to NOT expose these people. They sought to limit the access of priests to teen boys in a most cases--but admittedly it didn't turn out too well.


Besides that...the bible is considered the authority on the words and teachings of God...and the bible is full of rape, murder, torture and child abuse and even advocates such acts as executing the will of God. The world was full of rape and murder when the Bible was written. The book reflects the world around it--not 21st century sensibilities.


The hierarchy does not change Bud. The hierarchy of the catholic church has been roughly the same for millenia with only minor changes. Puppets change...the hierarchy does not. When it does it usually leads to a schism. I disagree--things change, there are reforms and backslides. The church is an institution run by human. Just like the United States of the Soviet Union or Cuba or whatever.


No it hasn't but is does mean that free speech is not protected if you can punish somebody for expressing speech that is displeasing to you. In fact...you are doing exactly what you accuse the government of wanting to do: lording over the private speech and expression of thoughts of your employees like a despot....because it is your private property. In that you are right--on my property, in my factory, on my land--I am a despot. That is the way society, business is set up. Where freedom of speech comes in is that the government doesn't control what people say.


You created your own little empire in which you rule subjectively and exploit your workers by giving them unfair wages and extracting their suprolus value. Because that is how the system works for you and how you make the system work. That's the system of most of the world. And you and each of those workers has the right to do what I have done.


While you were off spending your profits you extracted from that hard work with your family in China...your workers have to be careful not to anger you in anyway by saying something you do not like. Technically you are right. In reality--I need my workers--thay are costly to train. So none of them is invaluable in particular, as a group--I don't have a business without them. That's why they are paid--and in theory they are paid what they are worth.

[PhoenixAsh]

That is a position they took. It wasn't a position written in stone by God. It was a mistaken opinion.

No it is infallible ONLY in matters of faith--not matters of church practice. So it is infallible about the trinity--not in matters like if priests could marry (for example.)

Fine.

Dictatus Papae: "22. That the Roman church has never erred; nor will it err to all eternity, the Scripture bearing witness."



No I believe in responsibility. I believe the owners of RevLeft (lets use them rather than me) have the right to limit the kind of speech they have on this forum. So if they don't want fascist--then they could limit the right of fascists to post on their forum. Now the fascist should be free to maybe start his own forum, but he could be limited to post on a forum owned by Commuists The owners of Revleft are limited by the law. Because the German state laws prohibits offering a platform for speech for fascists/white supremacists.

That is beside the fact that I totally support a no platform for fascists even if upheld by burgeoisie laws.



You can think what you like.Well lets face it Bud. You strongly condemn people even advocating or arguing AOC....and want to fire them on the spot. You also argue child abusers should be prosecuted.

So why talk the talk and not walk the walk? If that is the case then certainly the Church is nothing less than a criminal organisation involved in aiding and abetting criminals on the higest levels for decades.

Any other organisation involved in such acts would immediately be denounced as a criminal organisation and their assets ceased by the government.

Make no mistake...if your employees are involved in cocaine smuggling and you would know about it and you fail to bring them in and continue to operate fully knowing what is happening in your bussiness...then y9ou would be jailed as an accomplis and your company would be declared bankrupt.


They sought to limit the access of priests to teen boys in a most cases--but admittedly it didn't turn out too well.No they didn't. In most cases they did nothing. That has been pretty wel established by now.


The world was full of rape and murder when the Bible was written. The book reflects the world around it--not 21st century sensibilities.Ah..but you see...the Catholic church upholds the texts as the word of God and as such the Holy Scripture is infallible...and that is actually part of the canon and ecuminicals.

So the Catholic Church...in all its 21st century sensibility still upholds the text op the Holy Scripture.



I disagree--things change, there are reforms and backslides. The church is an institution run by human. Just like the United States of the Soviet Union or Cuba or whatever.There are reforms in policy...rare reforms in policy. every few centuries in fact. But the hierarchy we have now...is exactly the same like the onee they had in 1100....and in 500...and in 200 AD.


In that you are right--on my property, in my factory, on my land--I am a despot. That is the way society, business is set up. Where freedom of speech comes in is that the government doesn't control what people say.But there is no freedom of speech as you decide what is allowd and what is not. Calling it freedom of speech is a misnomer of misleading proportions.



That's the system of most of the world. And you and each of those workers has the right to do what I have done.Steal land and exploit others?


Technically you are right. In reality--I need my workers--thay are costly to train. So none of them is invaluable in particular, as a group--I don't have a business without them. That's why they are paid--and in theory they are paid what they are worth.No they are not. They are paid for you to make an ideal profit. They actually do not get paid what they are worth or what they produce...otherwise your system wouldn't work and you wouldn't make a profit.

[PhoenixAsh]

What do we do?

I'll tell you what we will to do. We are going to steed a steed and we will ride!
...to the next town. And we become ghosts. Start a brand new life, one where you still serve me..and..and we are stable boys..

But what about Thadius?

Aaah...Thadius. Well. We will remember him fondly.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I'll just leave this here...

x2B86DCBfO0

Hypochristian
You think you know what the future holds
You think you have control of your immortal soul
Well you believe what you wanna believe
You can decieve but you can't fool me... NO!!!

Hypochristian - damned to salvation
Lost in a labyrinth of your own creation
You're a self-deciever - weak & useless
Lying your way through a thousand excuses

When you finally die... tell me where will you go?
To the pie in the sky or the fires below?
Will you qualify for the kingdom above with
No joy in your heart? No understanding of love?

Pick & choose believer - the worst of your kind
Never know which way you're going cuz you're
Fucked in the mind... betray your friends then
You cry about the loss... you two-faced motherfucker
Gonna show you who's boss!

Hypochristian - damned to salvation
Lost in a labyrinth of your own creation
You're a liar in waiting... without any answers
Rotting on the inside from a spiritual cancer

Hypochristian - you're a false witness
Infecting the world with Jehovah's sickness
Chosen by "god"... an assembly of liars
If there is a Hell you will burn in its fires

Hypochristian - damned to salvation
Lost in a labyrinth of your own creation
Peddler of poison and moral dysfunction
Preaching your gospel of self-destruction

Hypochristian - pray for salvation!
No escape from your situation
You're a blind believer, a self-deciever
Liar in waiting... damned to salvation

[Bud Struggle]

Well lets face it Bud. You strongly condemn people even advocating or arguing AOC....and want to fire them on the spot. You also argue child abusers should be prosecuted.

So why talk the talk and not walk the walk? If that is the case then certainly the Church is nothing less than a criminal organisation involved in aiding and abetting criminals on the higest levels for decades.

Any other organisation involved in such acts would immediately be denounced as a criminal organisation and their assets ceased by the government. I denounce he people that did the acts. Hell, I know America sometimes does bad things-I denounce the people that do the bad things-not America. Communism does bad things on occasion-but I'm still believe that Communism is a good system (in theory) and that it comes rather close to making sense at times.


Make no mistake...if your employees are involved in cocaine smuggling and you would know about it and you fail to bring them in and continue to operate fully knowing what is happening in your bussiness...then y9ou would be jailed as an accomplis and your company would be declared bankrupt.

No they didn't. In most cases they did nothing. That has been pretty wel established by now. That is up to the law to decide.


But there is no freedom of speech as you decide what is allowd and what is not. Calling it freedom of speech is a misnomer of misleading proportions. It's freedom from government involvement. If you call my mother a nasty name I can still punch you in the nose.


Steal land and exploit others? I worked, saved and bought whatever I have. The same way anyone else can do it.


No they are not. They are paid for you to make an ideal profit. They actually do not get paid what they are worth or what they produce...otherwise your system wouldn't work and you wouldn't make a profit.The system works just fine. Well that's not tue--there are poblems--there are always some problems, we are all human.

But over all the system works if you are willing to work it--and are a bit lucky. I won't bore you with my story--but nobody gave me nuttin' financially I earned it all myself.

[Bud Struggle]

By the way:


Happy Labor Day.

This is your day, workers--enjoy.

[ComradeMan]

You believe in and follow a religion which holy book advocate Rape, Murder, Childabuse, Torture and Slavery. And whose institutions have for decades abused children and covered up the fact throughtout the hierarchy and got active pedophiles, pederasts and child molesters and even murderers off the hook? Yet you are outraged about one AOC advocate in our ranks?

No, I don't think Bud or any other normal catholic does believe in or advocate those things.

I'm not sure how you could interpret those references as advocating, i.e. saying it's okay, to do those things.

Re this case, it's also not like there was no Ecclesiastical response nor they did not co-operate with the authorities.

Look at those articles posted too.

The fact of the matter is that this vile and disgusting abuse exists in society and the Church failed in preventing it from entering the church or convincingly eradicating when it was noted, at the same time I don't think it's fair to tar 1 billion catholics with the same brush.

Of course there are also people here who talk about the Soviet Union whose army was guilty of the biggest mass rape in history too.

I think what normal and decent catholics feel is that although they do indeed acknowledge that it is wrong and are usually as disgusted as everyone else, a lot of emphasis is given to the catholic church and not other religious denominations or professional goups who also have alarming stats.

All I have to say is what a sad, bad world we live in.:(

[RGacky3]

I denounce he people that did the acts. Hell, I know America sometimes does bad things-I denounce the people that do the bad things-not America. Communism does bad things on occasion-but I'm still believe that Communism is a good system (in theory) and that it comes rather close to making sense at times.


Communism is not an organization, The American government is, and so is the catholic church.


It's freedom from government involvement. If you call my mother a nasty name I can still punch you in the nose.


Actually legally you cannot.


I worked, saved and bought whatever I have. The same way anyone else can do it.


I'm sure a lot of your money was made through your efforts, but a lot was also made through other peoples efforts (if not most).


The system works just fine. Well that's not tue--there are poblems--there are always some problems, we are all human.


No it does not work, it works terribally, we have HUGE production and massiave need, we have massiave amounts of waste and tons of poverty and ever growing financial crashes ....

Sure there are always problems, but this system has much more problems than the one we propose.


But over all the system works if you are willing to work it--and are a bit lucky. I won't bore you with my story--but nobody gave me nuttin' financially I earned it all myself.

Every rich person says the same thing, every single one.

statistics show differently, the system does'nt work for most people, no matter what.

[RGacky3]

at the same time I don't think it's fair to tar 1 billion catholics with the same brush.


No but you can put the organization on trial, or the parts of the organization that sytematically covered it up.

If you take away the religiousness of the organization it fits under the RICO act.


All I have to say is what a sad, bad world we live in.http://www.revleft.com/vb/reactionary-chatter-xxix-t160598/revleft/smilies/sad.gif

That is a typical Bud/comrademan response, hey, thats just the way the world works, imagen if people thought that way 200 or 300 years ago.

[ComradeMan]

No but you can put the organization on trial, or the parts of the organization that sytematically covered it up.

It is on trial.


That is a typical Bud/comrademan response, hey, thats just the way the world works, imagen if people thought that way 200 or 300 years ago.

No Gacky, it's what people have been saying for a lot longer.....:rolleyes: and it no way implies approval either.

[RGacky3]

It is on trial.


Where? I missed that?


No Gacky, it's what people have been saying for a lot longer.....http://www.revleft.com/vb/reactionary-chatter-xxix-t160598/revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif and it no way implies approval either.

.... yeah, but its false ....

[ComradeMan]

Where? I missed that?

According to Donald Cozzens, "by the end of the mid 1990s, it was estimated that [...] more than half a billion dollars had been paid in jury awards, settlements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_settlement) and legal fees." This figure grew to about one billion dollars by 2002.[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#cite_note-42) Roman Catholics spent $615 million on sex abuse cases in 2007.[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#cite_note-43)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#Church_responses

An Italian priest has been condemned in an Italian court of appeal to 7.5 years in prison for sexual abuse of a 9 year old child. The abuse took place during a church organised summercamp. Damages in the amount of €700,000 are due paid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Europe#Italy

etc


.... yeah, but its false ....

..... because Gacky says so.... LOL!!!

O tempora, o mores. ;) People have been saying the same thing since written history began FFS.

And if it is false what is everyone doing here by the way?

[RGacky3]

..... because Gacky says so.... LOL!!!

O tempora, o mores. http://www.revleft.com/vb/reactionary-chatter-xxix-t160598/revleft/smilies/wink.gif People have been saying the same thing since written history began FFS.

And if it is false what is everyone doing here by the way?

No its false beause we don't live under monarchies, or feaudalism, we don't have slavery, we have labor unions, we do not have segregation, and so on and so forth, its patently false, and its a false argument to say "thats just teh way things are."


According to Donald Cozzens, "by the end of the mid 1990s, it was estimated that [...] more than half a billion dollars had been paid in jury awards, settlements (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_settlement) and legal fees." This figure grew to about one billion dollars by 2002.[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#cite_note-42) Roman Catholics spent $615 million on sex abuse cases in 2007.[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#cite_note-43)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholi...urch_responses (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#Church_responses)


But the Church AS AN ORGANIZATION has not been tried as such, only individual priests.

[ComradeMan]

No its false beause we don't live under monarchies, or feaudalism, we don't have slavery, we have labor unions, we do not have segregation, and so on and so forth, its patently false, and its a false argument to say "thats just teh way things are."

So why are the people here at RevLeft trying to change the world? :rolleyes:

No one is saying that's just the way things are so accept them, by the way- just as I notice you trying to sneak a little strawman in there.


But the Church AS AN ORGANIZATION has not been tried as such, only individual priests.

Do you realise how ridiculous that statement is? Why not take it further and say you are going to sue Christianity as a whole, or perhaps even humanity.

[RGacky3]

Do you realise how ridiculous that statement is? Why not take it further and say you are going to sue Christianity as a whole, or perhaps even humanity.

Because christianity is not an organization ... the Catholic chuch is. Infact you can take various dioces on trial.


So why are the people here at RevLeft trying to change the world? http://www.revleft.com/vb/reactionary-chatter-xxix-t160598/revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif

No one is saying that's just the way things are so accept them, by the way- just as I notice you trying to sneak a little strawman in there.


So then why would "Thats just the way things are" ever be an argument? BTW, thats what Bud says all the time, so yeah, people are saying that.

[ComradeMan]

Because christianity is not an organization ... the Catholic chuch is. Infact you can take various dioces on trial.

So why don't the secular authorities do that? But, and this was something you argued in your apologism for anarchism in Spain, you'd have to demonstrate that the Diocese was indeed responsible and caused crimes to be committed and not just an individual. It is part of Catholic ideology? Is it part of Diocese rules?


So then why would "Thats just the way things are" ever be an argument? BTW, thats what Bud says all the time, so yeah, people are saying that.

Argue that with him, not me- and that's not what I was saying anyway.

[PhoenixAsh]

No, I don't think Bud or any other normal catholic does believe in or advocate those things.

I'm not sure how you could interpret those references as advocating, i.e. saying it's okay, to do those things.

Because basically the references say so.


Re this case, it's also not like there was no Ecclesiastical response nor they did not co-operate with the authorities. * They actively HID the crimes for decades from the auhorities.
* They let those who they knew were doing this continue in their functions where they could keep doing what they were doing,
* They promoted known (to them) child rapists to the highest ranks of their
organisation.
* They pressuerd families into NOT testifying even going so far as to threatened with soul damnation if they did
* They pressured victims into not stepping foreward even by threatening them with the wrath of God.
* They covered up those instances in which victims or families did speak out and reacted by excommunicating them and slandering them as liars.



Look at those articles posted too.

The fact of the matter is that this vile and disgusting abuse exists in society and the Church failed in preventing it from entering the church or convincingly eradicating when it was noted, at the same time I don't think it's fair to tar 1 billion catholics with the same brush. Yes it is actually. They not only continue to support the structure which did this. They defend that structure. A structure which has been proving for millenia that they are willing to commit serious acts of murder, slavery, torture, rape and war based on the concept of God and sanctified it by tradition and holy scripture as official church doctrine. A doctrine which they say officially should be adherred to in defiance of "reason and logic" because of the infallability of the Church.


Of course there are also people here who talk about the Soviet Union whose army was guilty of the biggest mass rape in history too.But unlike Catholicism THAT is not part of official communism. Nor does anybody claim it is.



I think what normal and decent catholics feel is that although they do indeed acknowledge that it is wrong and are usually as disgusted as everyone else, a lot of emphasis is given to the catholic church and not other religious denominations or professional goups who also have alarming stats.Because unlike them the Catholic church enforces absolute submission to itself and claims to be the highest upholder of devine word and morals.



All I have to say is what a sad, bad world we live in.:(For a large part that is thanks to religion.

[RGacky3]

But, and this was something you argued in your apologism for anarchism in Spain, you'd have to demonstrate that the Diocese was indeed responsible and caused crimes to be committed and not just an individual. It is part of Catholic ideology? Is it part of Diocese rules?


Its not part of the Catholic ideology, and I don't know the diocese rules ... What I do know is that it has happened enough, and systematically, and it has a hiarchy

Apologism for anarchism in spain? So do you really believe that killing some inoccents who are part of an organization bent on your destructoin (the equivilant of killing pro-al queda clerics) during a fierce civil war, is the same as protecting and enabaling people who rape children?

[PhoenixAsh]

Do you realise how ridiculous that statement is? Why not take it further and say you are going to sue Christianity as a whole, or perhaps even humanity.

Ah, so you argue that the maffia is not a criminal organisation?

You argue that the hells angels are not a criminal organisation?

You argue that the SS is no a criminal organisation?

Basically the exact same logic applies in any instance an organisation is
structurally involved in committing, covering up or perpetuating crimes.


Like the Catholic Church was....

[ComradeMan]

Because basically the references say so.

But I would argue they don't because they don't actually say it's okay nor do they advocate it as such.


* They actively HID the crimes for decades from the auhorities......

Etc- and all of those things are being dealt with and in all hope the culprits will be brought to trial and book.


Yes it is actually. They not only continue to support the structure which did this. They defend that structure.

No, there has been a lot of restructuring and work with secular authorities to make sure stuff like this cannot happen again.


But unlike Catholicism THAT is not part of official communism. Nor does anybody claim it is.

It's not part of official Catholicism either.



Ah, so you argue that the maffia is not a criminal organisation?
You argue that the hells angels are not a criminal organisation?
You argue that the SS is no a criminal organisation?
Basically the exact same logic applies in any instance an organisation is
structurally involved in committing, covering up or perpetuating crimes.
Like the Catholic Church was....

There is a difference between an organisation that has as it's sole intent crime, such as organised crime families and associations or things like the biker gangs etc and an organisation, a very large organisation that has unfortunately been infiltrated by unscrupulous and immoral criminals. The SS, is tricky, per se it was indeed a criminal organisation and many, many of it's members were indeed criminals/war-criminals, but not every SS officer was accused of war crimes either although the figures involved are dubious and we get into discussing things like ODESSA etc. However ex-SS members did fight and have the original ruling at Nuremberg overturned and secured their war pensions.

Now, I am not a big fan of organised religion in any form- it may surprise you- but looking through this objectively I do think there are things you need to take into account.

[PhoenixAsh]

But I would argue they don't because they don't actually say it's okay nor do they advocate it as such.


Yes they do.



Etc- and all of those things are being dealt with and in all hope the culprits will be brought to trial and book.

Except for the church itself....naturally...




No, there has been a lot of restructuring and work with secular authorities to make sure stuff like this cannot happen again.

After decades and decades of doing nothing...victimising hundreds of thousands of people....




It's not part of official catholicism either.

The church is NOT seperate from Catholocism. In fact the church is an integral and essential part of the religion.

[Bud Struggle]

Hey Everyone. I mentioned CotR in this discussion. I shouldn't have. I should have kept the argument to the facts and not involved anyone in particular.

My apologies to her and the Forum

Bud

[ComradeMan]

Yes they do.

Please explain how then, and also explain how, if possible, they are not superseded by the other things that you didn't quote.


After decades and decades of doing nothing...victimising hundreds of thousands of people....

We can't change the past but we can work on the present to help the future. The fact is that the church has taken responsibility and is working with secular authorities to make sure this can never happen again.


The church is NOT seperate from Catholocism. In fact the church is an integral and essential part of the religion.

It's not official doctrine anywhere. The Red Army were actually encouraged by their leaders, I believe.

[danyboy27]

Canadian labor day.
this video is appropriate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwbzxemJZIc

[Le Libérer]

The Catholic catechism states several issues very clearly:

Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God

It goes on to explain this.

The apostles left bishops as their successors and like jesus did upon them they gave them their own position of teaching authority. The authority and practice of the church is a living transmission accomplished through the holy spirit and is call called traidition. Both tradition and the holy scripture must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments and devotion.

. Yes and thats exactly what the priests use against children to forcibly rape them.

I just cant wrap my head around being that little boy while being raped by a priest who is Jesus on Earth. How limited children are at that age (some before some after) in cognitive dissonance. The physical and mental pain, the traumatic stress of the act..... Many of the victims of Catholic priests have suffered lifetime post tramatic stress AND will for their whole lives.


According to Donald Cozzens, "by the end of the mid 1990s, it was estimated that [...] more than half a billion dollars had been paid in jury awards, settlements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_settlement) and legal fees." This figure grew to about one billion dollars by 2002.[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#cite_note-42) Roman Catholics spent $615 million on sex abuse cases in 2007.[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#cite_note-43)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholi...urch_responses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#Church_responses)

An Italian priest has been condemned in an Italian court of appeal to 7.5 years in prison for sexual abuse of a 9 year old child. The abuse took place during a church organised summercamp. Damages in the amount of €700,000 are due paid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholi...n_Europe#Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Europe#Italy)

etc
There is no repayment for a lifetime of suffering and pain as these children endured. There is no price tag big enough. I know many of the victims never followed in the case action suit for multiple reasons. For the records I saw first hand, many of them started to but dropped out. It was just too painful to go through.

In conclusion, the Catholic Church has created a whole lot of athiest and Gd haters, probably more so than any other entity.

[ComradeMan]

......

What would you like to see happen for justice to be done?

[RGacky3]

What would you like to see happen for justice to be done?

Personally any dioces that routenely covored up molestations and just moved the priests around to be subject to RICO, and for the Pope to own up to his defending and enabeling of a priest that raped deaf boys.

[PhoenixAsh]

Please explain how then, and also explain how, if possible, they are not superseded by the other things that you didn't quote.

Because the Bible is hypocritical and God is not a good God. It is in fact said by God on several occasions thet he is NOT a good God. Which is later on numerous occasions restated in the NT.


We can't change the past but we can work on the present to help the future. The fact is that the church has taken responsibility and is working with secular authorities to make sure this can never happen again.

Exactly. And what would help is to bring down one of the most vile and evil institutions which throughout the centuries had knowingly and documented by itself....engaged in torture, rape, murder, genocide, child abuse, extortion, slavery, theft, psychological abuse, physical abuse, exploitation, kidnapping, blackmail, aiding & abetting and numerous other activities which are considered and were considered crimes under the guise of legitimacy as executing Gods word under both official and unofficial Church doctrine...and knowingly harbored and proteced within their official hierarchy purpetrators of these crimes and shielded them from prosecution and even promoted them to the highest ranks within their organisation.

Making sure this never happens again is to bring down the institution of the Catholic Church....reposess their material holdings and ban the institution from any place where they can officially wield authority over any person or are in any position to ever commit such crimes again.



It's not official doctrine anywhere. The Red Army were actually encouraged by their leaders, I believe.

Yes...actually they are part of official Church doctrine. However much you want to deny that...you can not erase the past NOR can you erase the fact that the official dogma of the Catholic Church is that the Holy Scripture is in completion an integral part of church teachings aswell as church tradition.

[ComradeMan]

Yes...actually they are part of official Church doctrine. However much you want to deny that...you can not erase the past NOR can you erase the fact that the official dogma of the Catholic Church is that the Holy Scripture is in completion an integral part of church teachings aswell as church tradition.

Calm down.

I understand your anger, it's also the anger of many decent catholics too. :thumbup1:

Now, this kind of abuse of minors is not part of any catholic doctrine- so let's not get carried away.

As I asked CoTR- What would you like to see happen for justice to be done?

[PhoenixAsh]

Calm down.

I understand your anger, it's also the anger of many decent catholics too. :thumbup1:

The seperation is between the Church and the followers. The arguments pertain to the Church and the Faith...not the faithfull perse.


Now, this kind of abuse of minors is not part of any catholic doctrine- so let's not get carried away.

As I asked CoTR- What would you like to see happen for justice to be doen?It was institutionalized. As Rgacky argued...the acts are enough for any other organisation to be branded as criminal....and I think that is, based on not only these facts but on the entire history of the church, to do the same.

I think that should happen.

[Bud Struggle]

Because the Bible is hypocritical and God is not a good God. It is in fact said by God on several occasions thet he is NOT a good God. Which is later on numerous occasions restated in the NT. Hi!

The Bible is an allagory. It tells truths in story form. If you want to go after Bible believers chapter and verse--it ain't the Catholics. (Fundamentalists, Born again Chrisians.)




Exactly. And what would help is to bring down one of the most vile and evil institutions which throughout the centuries had knowingly and documented by itself....engaged in torture, rape, murder, genocide, child abuse, extortion, slavery, theft, psychological abuse, physical abuse, exploitation, kidnapping, blackmail, aiding & abetting and numerous other activities which are considered and were considered crimes under the guise of legitimacy as executing Gods word under both official and unofficial Church doctrine...and knowingly harbored and proteced within their official hierarchy purpetrators of these crimes and shielded them from prosecution and even promoted them to the highest ranks within their organisation. Woah! Sounds like you could be talking about every other successful institution on the face of this earth. Communism (when it was successful :rolleyes:) included.


Making sure this never happens again is to bring down the institution of the Catholic Church....reposess their material holdings and ban the institution from any place where they can officially wield authority over any person or are in any position to ever commit such crimes again. We could also make sure there is never a Cold War again if we all promise to abolish Communism. Look the Church fucked up--BIG TIME. and hopefully it learned its' lesson and it's time to mone on. Unlike Communism and like AIG the Catholic Church is too big to fail.


Yes...actually they are part of official Church doctrine. However much you want to deny that...you can not erase the past NOR can you erase the fact that the official dogma of the Catholic Church is that the Holy Scripture is in completion an integral part of church teachings aswell as church tradition. That's just now how it goes. Really. The Catholic Church has ALWAYS been full of fuck ups. Form Peter the first pope on down. Even Jesus calls Peter and idiot.

It's the way it goes.

[Le Libérer]

Hey Everyone. I mentioned CotR in this discussion. I shouldn't have. I should have kept the argument to the facts and not involved anyone in particular.

My apologies to her and the Forum

Bud
Your apology is accepted, Bud. I'll even let you talk to me sometimes. :P

[ComradeMan]

@Hindsight and CoTR

Please, I've asked both of you the question- What would you like to see happen in order for justice to be done in these cases?

[Le Libérer]

@Hindsight and CoTR

Please, I've asked both of you the question- What would you like to see happen in order for justice to be done in these cases?
There is no justice for these crimes.

Its like this, and I learned this from a Catholic priest. When I was going through Catechism, I asked Monsignor,
"Father, if a man comes to confession and confesses he has killed another man, what do you tell him?"

He said, " I would tell him I will forgive his sin if he
1. "IS truly sorry for his sin"
2. "promises never to do it again, and
3. "turns himself in to the authorities to meet the laws of the land."

So, following what I learned out of the horses mouth, if the Catholic Church wants to give justice for these things, then their penance should merely be stop doing it, remove ALL the guilty priests from priesthood (instead of moving them to another location) and turn them over to the authorities.The Church doesnt do that. They hide the incidents and keep moving priests to different locations.

I know of one priest who had so many pedophilia cases against him, that the church moved him to oversee a convent out in the desert, where there wasnt an abundance of boys.

And many of the victims will say this as well. They would rather the Church remove the priests as justice than a bank full of money. They dont want any child going through what they did.

[PhoenixAsh]

Hi!The Bible is an allagory. It tells truths in story form. If you want to go after Bible believers chapter and verse--it ain't the Catholics. (Fundamentalists, Born again Chrisians.)

No.

The council of Trent pretty much etablished the litteral truth of the bible. That was once again ratified around 1900 by Pope Leo XIII's encyclical Providentissimus Deus in which there was no doubt whatsoever that any other than litteral truth of the bible was heretical.
the second Vatican council in 1965 in dei verbum and sancta mater ecclesia once again established that the only position of the Church was to emphasize the hisotricity of the Bible. Pope John Paul and then time Kardinal Ratzinger pushd for the New Catholic Cathechism to once again return to the orthodox interpretation of the Bible.

So no...the Bible is seen in the Catholic church as to be studied with keeping in mind historical and cultural context but NOT as ahistorical.




Woah! Sounds like you could be talking about every other successful institution on the face of this earth. Communism (when it was successful :rolleyes:) included.

Communism has never been succesful.


We could also make sure there is never a Cold War again if we all promise to abolish Communism. Look the Church fucked up--BIG TIME. and hopefully it learned its' lesson and it's time to mone on. Unlike Communism and like AIG the Catholic Church is too big to fail.

Or we could abolish capitalism.

The Church took 2 millenia to learn some lessons. They only learned lessons when and if they were directly threatened. The Cat. Church will not learn and therefore should be brought down for 2 millenia of organised crime and criminal intent sold under the guise of God sanctioned justice.


That's just now how it goes. Really. The Catholic Church has ALWAYS been full of fuck ups. Form Peter the first pope on down. Even Jesus calls Peter and idiot.

It's the way it goes.

That should give you some pauze right there. He thinks Peter is a fuck up...and yet he makes him one of his three first.

Officially part of the Cathechism is that Peter is considered the foundation and rock of faith and personal devotion to Jesus...and that Jesus called Peter kaphla: my rock. (This means its undeniable truth in the eyes of the Church....in other words: you can NOT question this as a Catholic...which is also in the Cathechism.)

Though there is a huge amount of debate if it is actually an accurate translation and/or interpretation outside of the Catholic Church.

[PhoenixAsh]

@Hindsight and CoTR

Please, I've asked both of you the question- What would you like to see happen in order for justice to be done in these cases?

I told you...strip the Church of all its powers, holdings and belongings. deconstruct the Church hierarchy.

Though I think CotR has a very good point that you can not undo what has been done.

[Bud Struggle]

There is no justice for these crimes.

Its like this, and I learned this from a Catholic priest. When I was going through Catechism, I asked Monsignor,
"Father, if a man comes to confession and confesses he has killed another man, what do you tell him?"

He said, " I would tell him I will forgive his sin if he
1. "IS truly sorry for his sin"
2. "promises never to do it again, and
3. "turns himself in to the authorities to meet the laws of the land."

That's true. It isn't the job of the Church to be a "police force." The job of he Church is to forgive sin. It is the job of the civil authorities to prosicute and convict.


So, following what I learned out of the horses mouth, if the Catholic Church wants to give justice for these things, then their penance should merely be stop doing it, remove ALL the guilty priests from priesthood (instead of moving them to another location) and turn them over to the authorities.The Church doesnt do that. They hide the incidents and keep moving priests to different locations. Your solution is beter than the Church's.


And many of the victims will say this as well. They would rather the Church remove the priests as justice than a bank full of money. They dont want any child going through what they did. I would agree to that.

Look as a Catholic--these priests need to be gotten rid of, they are hindering the faith. And as a Capitalsits--these priests need to be gotten rid of, they are costing me money in lawsuits.

There is nothing there I like about this at all. Nothing. Besides if I has a kid that was molested by any one of them--a priest would be forgiving me in the confessional for murder not long after.

[Bud Struggle]

I told you...strip the Church of all its powers, holdings and belongings. deconstruct the Church hierarchy. Seriously, who could do that? Punish 99% of the people both laity and clerical for the crimes of 1%. It's not rational. Why should Bud Struggle pay for the crimes of--criminals? I like my church the way it is--I and 99% of the people in the Church committed no crimes. Why blame me? Blame the guilty.


Though I think CotR has a very good point that you can not undo what has been done.True.

[ComradeMan]

There is no justice for these crimes.

Sorry, but that's not really an answer- What do you suggest?


He said, " I would tell him I will forgive his sin if he
1. "IS truly sorry for his sin"
2. "promises never to do it again, and
3. "turns himself in to the authorities to meet the laws of the land."


So, following what I learned out of the horses mouth, if the Catholic Church wants to give justice for these things, then their penance should merely be stop doing it, remove ALL the guilty priests from priesthood (instead of moving them to another location) and turn them over to the authorities.The Church doesnt do that. They hide the incidents and keep moving priests to different locations.

.... which is basically the law, secular and for anyone regardless of whether they are catholic or not.


And many of the victims will say this as well. They would rather the Church remove the priests as justice than a bank full of money. They dont want any child going through what they did.

Well there have been large jury and out-of-court settlements in the US. However, isn't that what the Church has already been doing?

[Bud Struggle]

No.

The council of Trent pretty much etablished the litteral truth of the bible. That was once again ratified around 1900 by Pope Leo XIII's encyclical Providentissimus Deus in which there was no doubt whatsoever that any other than litteral truth of the bible was heretical.
the second Vatican council in 1965 in dei verbum and sancta mater ecclesia once again established that the only position of the Church was to emphasize the hisotricity of the Bible. Pope John Paul and then time Kardinal Ratzinger pushd for the New Catholic Cathechism to once again return to the orthodox interpretation of the Bible.

So no...the Bible is seen in the Catholic church as to be studied with keeping in mind historical and cultural context but NOT as ahistorical. Good point, kind of. Catholics don't beieve in Creationism, or Adam and Eve or a lot of things like that.

Communism has never been succesful. [/quote] I know--I was trying to be polite. :D


Or we could abolish capitalism. You really need a Plan B


The Church took 2 millenia to learn some lessons. They only learned lessons when and if they were directly threatened. The Cat. Church will not learn and therefore should be brought down for 2 millenia of organised crime and criminal intent sold under the guise of God sanctioned justice. Tad preaching there. A fucked up Church is bad business for Bud Struggle--Do you think I want to pay for criminal priests?


That should give you some pauze right there. He thinks Peter is a fuck up...and yet he makes him one of his three first. Don't think of the Church in Materialisic terns. It's Completely idealisic. Well, almost.


Officially part of the Cathechism is that Peter is considered the foundation and rock of faith and personal devotion to Jesus...and that Jesus called Peter kaphla: my rock. (This means its undeniable truth in the eyes of the Church....in other words: you can NOT question this as a Catholic...which is also in the Cathechism.) That's not what the Church teaches. It never was. Where do you get this stuff?

[Le Libérer]

Well there have been large jury and out-of-court settlements in the US. However, isn't that what the Church has already been doing?
They continue to move priests around instead of turning them over to the authorities to be tried as criminals. So no, they arent even acknowledging there is a problem unless they are forced to.

The only reason the Church has done what they have so far is because they had to, not because they admit they have a problem.

[ComradeMan]

They continue to move priests around instead of turning them over to the authorities to be tried as criminals. So no, they arent even acknowledging there is a problem unless they are forced to.

The only reason the Church has done what they have so far is because they had to, not because they admit they have a problem.

Well, if there is a case why haven't the police arrested and charged them?

I don't understand what's going on in the US to be honest. Surely allegations as serious as these should be brought to the attention of the authorities and then they take it from there if they feel there is a case.

[ComradeMan]

On a different note...

OMG

http://jewskilledjesus.com/

How the fuck is this not shut down?

[PhoenixAsh]

Seriously, who could do that? Punish 99% of the people both laity and clerical for the crimes of 1%. It's not rational. Why should Bud Struggle pay for the crimes of--criminals? I like my church the way it is--I and 99% of the people in the Church committed no crimes. Why blame me? Blame the guilty.

True.

Not blaming you. Blaming the institution which has from the day of its founding befouled anything which is professed to do.

The first Pontiff, St Damascus, massacred followers...men, women and children of both sexes, of the church on church grounds. O yeas...he was declared a saint by the very same church.

Sixtus III, raped a virgin and the empress bestowed in her judgment the righ to Sixtus to judge himself...

St Leo the Great ordered genocide! And was sanctified for doing so by the Church.

St Hormisdas ordered the prosecution and execution of all who did not follow the official doctrines of the church...and was sanctified for it.

Silverus betrayed the church to the Goths...but he was actually expelled from his office. Figures...because the Chruch sanctifies those who commit tremendous crimes against others...but is unforegiving in crimes against itself.

Theodorus dipped the execution orders of herretics in the holy wine used in mass...symbolically (and canonically...so official church ruling) signed those with the blood of jesus.

St Sergius was an adulterator. And low and behold...an official church declared miracle claimed he was innocent by mouth of an 8 day old shild who, during his baptism, cried out that the Pontiff was not his father. O hell yess!!!! Notice: SAINT

St Gregory II (again: notice SAINT) stole church funds for the poor and bestowed it upon several bishops and monasteries. He started a bloody and destructive civil war and endorsed burtal murders on enemy officers and their families. O...and the reason of the civil war? Because he was opposed to an edict by the emperor which FORBADE IMAGE WORSHIP, IDOLATERY...o my...

St Pascal was charged with murdering two priests. denied the charges and refused to extradict the guilty ones...als clergy members. Again...notice...SAINT


I skipped a dozen or so...we are not even close yet to 1000 AD.


John the XIX was so cruel that the Romans chased him from Rome trying to lynch him. This was somewhere in 1033


Skipping yet a few...

We arrive at Innocent IV who conspired to murder the emperor. Which failed. Then officially delcared the emperor by council excommunicated....and in doing so conveniently absolved himself of any guilt. Again...using the church doctrine and canon.

Bonifacius denied by cahachism the entry into heaven of all those who opposed his dominion of the world. He frequented whore houses. Ordered the destruction of a city and all its inhabitants.

In 1447 Eugenius IV stopped being Pontif. He has executed 200 roman citizens who were friends of the previous pontif and caused an official chruch schizm by his debauchery....with an anti-pope and all and a bloody civil war as a result. Agian both sides naturally invoked numerous canons in their support.

Paul II used extortion and threat of church inquisitional torture to extract funds for his own private gain with which he organised huge feasts of debauchery.

Innocent VIII was a gambling and spending man. And even put the papal tiara as downpayment to fund his exhuberant life style.

We have not even reached early modern times yet. We are still at around 1500...and I skipped several dozen popes all of which are accused and guilty of, tremendous crimes and often used Chruch canonical and eucominical traditions and laws to justify them or to fund them. Some of the rapists, murdering, extortionist, genocidal and mass murdering scumbags were declared saints...by the very same church.

But the most recent pope is now charged with crimes against humanity as well.

Which you will find an interesting read: http://richarddawkins.net/articles/595539-charges-initiated-against-pope-for-crimes-against-humanity

[PhoenixAsh]

Don't think of the Church in Materialisic terns. It's Completely idealisic. Well, almost.

That's not what the Church teaches. It never was. Where do you get this stuff?


Doctrine of the Petrine premacy...which is in the canon as the Apostolic succesion...

And also the Cathechismus.
424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.

552 Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve; Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the Father, Peter had confessed: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Our Lord then declared to him: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." Christ, the living Stone, thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_Simon_Peter#cite_note-5)


You really, really need to inform yourself more about your own faith :P :P

[Bud Struggle]

Not blaming you. Blaming the institution which has from the day of its founding befouled anything which is professed to do.
I understand that--thank you.[/quote]


Doctrine of the Petrine premacy...which is in the canon as the Apostolic succesion...

And also the Cathechismus.

424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.


552 Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve; Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the Father, Peter had confessed: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Our Lord then declared to him: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." Christ, the living Stone, thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_Simon_Peter#cite_note-5)


You really, really need to inform yourself more about your own faith :P :P



It's not about that. It's about the deposit of faith, things like the viggin birth of Jesus or Jesus's death on the cross.

No one takes what they do as people seriously. Tha's why most of the billion of Catholics out there aren't going anywhere.

Some do and did--that's for sure. But on the whole, the things you bring up aren't really and issue.

Hell I'm a catholic and I do stupid things all of the time, too. Everyone does. It's being human. And if I did something illegal I should be arrested.


(This place cerainly has gotten "Law and Order" lately. :D ) Though seriously--these priests have committed serious crimes.

Here's a question--as Communists do we believe that people (priest of not) charged with sexual crimes should be put in prison for a long time?

[Bud Struggle]

You have to admit--it's a lot less dull now that I'm back. :thumbup1:

[PhoenixAsh]

You have to admit--it's a lot less dull now that I'm back. :thumbup1:


True....

[Le Libérer]

You have to admit--it's a lot less dull now that I'm back. :thumbup1:
Not from where I am sitting.

Once again, Bud you need to stuff all that arrogance back in your pocket.

[PhoenixAsh]

Some do and did--that's for sure. But on the whole, the things you bring up aren't really and issue.

Hell I'm a catholic and I do stupid things all of the time, too. Everyone does. It's being human. And if I did something illegal I should be arrested.


(This place cerainly has gotten "Law and Order" lately. :D ) Though seriously--these priests have committed serious crimes.

It isn;t about induviduals doig stupid stuff. It is about the institution officially endorsing such stuff and exploitation of the official church doctrine to allow this, justofy this and sanctify this.

most of the popes I mentioned...and the vast amount of popes throughout the church history...used cathchismus, eucominical councils, canon and edicts to justify their crimes as official church rulings. As such they are directly part of official church dogma. They can not be questioned and according to church doctrine are above reproach. A lot of these criminals were later declared saints.

This means Christ dwells in these people...who officially sanctioned genocide, raped women, murdered people etc. A saint is officially canonized by the Church....and are professed to be complete in holiness and an expression of what God wants us to be. This is Church doctrine. You can not go around it.

Once a saint is canonized that means that the Church can see nothing wrong in the persons life that goes against the faith.

That is the official doctrine...and then becomes part of Holy Tradition.

you really, really can not see how this is disavowing the entire church hierarchy and doctrine?


Here's a question--as Communists do we believe that people (priest of not) charged with sexual crimes should be put in prison for a long time?

Define communist....

[Skooma Addict]

Not from where I am sitting.

We are all reading the same thing so where yo are siting shouldnt matter. unless you are sitting in a really comfortable chair and them maybe you get lazy so then it doesn't get less dull I would also seggest a brighter colored chair and opening the windows.

[PhoenixAsh]

soo...alomst 30 posts a day since the creation of this thread. Now we are talking....we can do better though. We need more speed.

Also...we need more Taco's

http://www.bigbearxchange.com/AD%20FOLDER/AD-ELSUPERTACO/001.png

and high hats....


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hf2Yudeh7dg/RgoChwy-fnI/AAAAAAAAAVo/VB3YmbuDR88/s400/high%2Bhat.jpg

[Le Libérer]

We are all reading the same thing so where yo are siting shouldnt matter. unless you are sitting in a really comfortable chair and them maybe you get lazy so then it doesn't get less dull I would also seggest a brighter colored chair and opening the windows.
Where I am sitting.

Lots of drama whether Bud is here or not. /where I sit.

[Le Libérer]

soo...alomst 30 posts a day since the creation of this thread. Now we are talking....we can do better though. We need more speed.

Also...we need more Taco's

http://www.bigbearxchange.com/AD%20FOLDER/AD-ELSUPERTACO/001.png

and high hats....


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hf2Yudeh7dg/RgoChwy-fnI/AAAAAAAAAVo/VB3YmbuDR88/s400/high%2Bhat.jpg

Do you speak French too? :wub:

[PhoenixAsh]

ahh....I just learned those things are called top hats

[PhoenixAsh]

Malheureusement, je ne parlais pas Francais bien....mais je parle Allemand ou Anglais. Et bien sur je parle le Neerlandais.

[Skooma Addict]

Where I am sitting.

Lots of drama whether Bud is here or not. /where I sit.
That blew my mind.

edit: jajajajajajaja

edit edit: im broked and drunk again. let me know when comeradman comes so i can make some more italy jokes

[Le Libérer]

Malheureusement, je ne parlais pas Francais bien....mais je parle Allemand ou Anglais. Et bien sur je parle le Neerlandais.
Je vois! Ressemble manuel de français.

[Skooma Addict]

Gays make up a larger proportion of the population in France than in any other country. I think itlay would b higher but they burn gays at the stake.

Or at least i think i read that online somewhere. DOnt quote me on it

[Skooma Addict]

So I always thought that "game" was a bunch of bs, but its pretty legit. Or at least the advice that that one "roissey" guy offers. Its pretty decent advice. YOU all hould also look at the blog "Half Sigma." Not that you would agree with it but it seems to be the opposite of you guys without going into crazy territory like stormfart. Might find it interesting.

[Ele'ill]

Skooma Addict, shut up.

[Le Libérer]

So I always thought that "game" was a bunch of bs, but its pretty legit. Or at least the advice that that one "roissey" guy offers. Its pretty decent advice. YOU all hould also look at the blog "Half Sigma." Not that you would agree with it but it seems to be the opposite of you guys without going into crazy territory like stormfart. Might find it interesting.
You just made absolutely no sense at all. :blink:

[PhoenixAsh]

The Game is a "manual" for men to pick up women....and relies heavilly on stereotyping, group dynamics, NLP and gender role pattern analysis. It is basically: how to become a man women desire.

Its counter part is "The Rules" which is basically the same but for women....and is thoroughly submerged in gender role enforcement....in other words: how to be such a women men, the right ones, will desire you.


Half Sigma is a blog about a guys recent infatuation with a card game called Magic The Gathering....and some other stuff. Somebody linekd it to me once. I read MTG in the title and then immediately surfed for greener pastures.

[PhoenixAsh]

Je vois! Ressemble manuel de français.

Well...thats one of two sentences I can get out in French and it sounds amazing...because I got to practice them alot.

for everything else there is google translate! :D

[PhoenixAsh]

Sooooo....Skooma...What is your poison of choice?

[Skooma Addict]

Sooooo....Skooma...What is your poison of choice?

Bells Oberon

[PhoenixAsh]

Is that like Hefen Weisen?

Is it sweet or bitter?

[Skooma Addict]

Is that like Hefen Weisen?

Is it sweet or bitter?

It is pretty sweet. It is supposed to be a summer drink.

[PhoenixAsh]

It is pretty sweet. It is supposed to be a summer drink.

Ah...that sounds good. I personally don't like beer that much. But I prefer a sweeter beer with a hop taste rather than bitter our sour beers. though I can always do a wodka :)

[#FF0000]

so i reinstalled Morrowind and I am in the process of modding the fuck out of it

[ComradeMan]

....

The Middle-Ages, in fact the past in general, were and has been pretty nasty for all concerned.

The Ottoman Turks slaughtered 800 ordinary people for being Christians by Mehmed II in Southern Italy in 1480. The King of England threw the Jews down a well in the city of York and so on. In fact we could go on for pages listing the crimes of people throughout history regardless of whether they were Catholic or not- but this has little relevance today and is also guilty of applying our morality to them- even though we do, and rightly see these things as atrocious from our modern point of view.

The point is that the Church, old, archaic and slow to react is not TODAY what it was THEN. You are reifying the Church as if it were some timless being unto itself which it is not.

To accuse the Pope of crimes against humanity is ridiculous sensationalism in my opinion.

Getting back to the original topic I found what seems to be a balanced article from the Washington Post here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/16/AR2010041602026.html

Now this is no absolution of the Catholic Church, but there are according to what I have read a greater number of cases within the Protestant denominations- yet it's strange they don't make headline news.
http://dannimoss.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/protestant-clergy-abuse-equals-or-exceeds-catholic-clergy-abuse/

I also point to this article again
http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm

There is also a problem it seems within the Jewish community

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99913807

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/juliankossoff/100026836/sexual-abuse-the-orthodox-jewish-communitys-devastating-secret/

It seems to me that the problem is widespread and is a problem of our society in general. The fact that this happens in a religious setting where people have trust in their peers and "leaders" makes it all the more deplorable but to paint this as some kind of thing inherent in Catholicism itself is untruthful and actually serves to obfuscate the issue.

[ComradeMan]

I just found a funny application
"Google Fight"

http://googlefight.com/

You can fight two terms/words against each other and see who comes out on top!
:D

[Sasha]

http://spele.nl/games/actie/meppen/slap-gadaffi/

[PhoenixAsh]

The Middle-Ages, in fact the past in general, were and has been pretty nasty for all concerned.

Sure it was...mostly because of actions of the Catholic Church and their relentless wars, prosecutions, genocidal campaigns, crusades, extortions, murders, scheming and sanctioned horrible actions.

What sets the actions of the Catholic church aside from the rest is that not only did they commit these acts. The used official church law to sanctify them as implicit and explicitly part of Chruch dogma and therefore part of the Catholic faith.

In other words: The Church linked these crimes intrinsically with the religion itself by making it part of the religion through Cathechisms, Eucominical councils, Canonisation and papel edicts.



The Ottoman Turks slaughtered 800 ordinary people for being Christians by Mehmed II in Southern Italy in 1480. The King of England threw the Jews down a well in the city of York and so on. In fact we could go on for pages listing the crimes of people throughout history regardless of whether they were Catholic or not- but this has little relevance today and is also guilty of applying our morality to them- even though we do, and rightly see these things as atrocious from our modern point of view.

And yet the Church does NOT see these things as attrocities. What you keep forgetting is that they made these things part of their religion....part of the word of God and part of their sacred Traditions.

Now we can draw two conclusions:

1). Chruch history shows that from the very start the Church was led by criminals. The chruch was hiding criminals and the chruch functioned as a criminal organisation.

2). The Catholic religion is in fact evil an worships an evil deity. The Chruch pretends to be the only authority on the right teachings of God. It pretends that it is the only entity who represents the will of God. By officially canonizing these crime they made them part of the religion....not merely as allegorical teachings or as sinful misguided zeal...but as the will of God him/her self.

This is something you keep overlooking. This is something which is swept under the rug. And this is something defenders of the Catholic Church refuse to recognize....again and again.

I explained this in numerous posts. I cited Chrurch law. I cited Church Cathechism and I cites Chrurch Hole Tradition. I proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Catholic God is evil....and that per extend of that proof the Church is an evil and criminal entity.

You can NOT deny that if the official Church dogma is that a Saint is the embodyment of Gods will that when you recognize a genocidal maniac as a saint and canonize him...you are saying: His deeds are the will of God and the embodyment of how God wants us to be.

Now this is Tradition. One of the two pillars of the true Faith. The other one is Holy scripture.

In which there is ample evidence to support this very same fact. I will cite you two specific passages from the New Testament...because well knao the vengeful God from the OT.

Now in the new testament Jesus says:

Jesus said:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."Matthew 10:34-37 (http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/sb.html?Matthew%2010:34-37)


"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."
Luke 12:51-53 (http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/sb.html?Luke%2012:51-53)




So Holy Scripture and Holy tradition are in line with each other.

Now what you also overlook is that the Catholci Church is NOT a seperate entity from the Catholic Faith.

The Catholic church is, together with the Orthodox church unique in all Abrahamic religions that it is the only arbiter of what is considered true faith and the true word of God. And the Catholic faith goes further in that notion than the Orthodox Church.




The point is that the Church, old, archaic and slow to react is not TODAY what it was THEN. You are reifying the Church as if it were some timless being unto itself which it is not.

O this is really ironic.

"We're above the times. We don't take our queue from the winds and the trends of the day."
- Archbishop of New York


To accuse the Pope of crimes against humanity is ridiculous sensationalism in my opinion.

Maybe...but it is true. As is the Church guilty of repeated crimes against humanity and induviduals...and is in fact a premeditated criminal organisation.



It seems to me that the problem is widespread and is a problem of our society in general. The fact that this happens in a religious setting where people have trust in their peers and "leaders" makes it all the more deplorable but to paint this as some kind of thing inherent in Catholicism itself is untruthful and actually serves to obfuscate the issue.


No...actually it does not. As the Catholic Church more than other other religious entity has millenia of history behind it which is filled during every age and era with the exact same exampes of criminal behaviour. As such...the Catholic Church is a criminal entity.

[ComradeMan]

Sure it was...mostly because of actions of the Catholic Church and their relentless wars, prosecutions, genocidal campaigns, crusades, extortions, murders, scheming and sanctioned horrible actions.

Oh... not because perhaps people were Medieval and not exposed to modern enlightenment values and ways of thinking? It's not like things were much different before the Catholic Church either. Life in pagan societies was pretty dismal too.


What sets the actions of the Catholic church aside from the rest is that not only did they commit these acts. The used official church law to sanctify them as implicit and explicitly part of Chruch dogma and therefore part of the Catholic faith.

They didn't really sanctify these things as dogma. I don't Catholics recite these things at catechism classes somehow. But yet again, you are dealing with several hundred years ago. How is that relevant to now?


In other words: The Church linked these crimes intrinsically with the religion itself by making it part of the religion through Cathechisms, Eucominical councils, Canonisation and papel edicts.

And that same Church has denounced these things, apologised and so on...



1). Chruch history shows that from the very start the Church was led by criminals. The chruch was hiding criminals and the chruch functioned as a criminal organisation.

Really? Was St Peter a criminal? You are beginning to sound like Nero.:D



2). The Catholic religion is in fact evil an worships an evil deity. The Chruch pretends to be the only authority on the right teachings of God. It pretends that it is the only entity who represents the will of God. By officially canonizing these crime they made them part of the religion....not merely as allegorical teachings or as sinful misguided zeal...but as the will of God him/her self.

That's a big jump really isn't it? When rightwingers use that kind of post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning to condemn communism the left it is usually belittled.

Well most religions claim that to a certain extent. Why single out Catholicism? When there was guy here who was adamantly against Islam he got banned and people pointed out that despite the reactionary nature of Islam and the countless list of atrocities it was not fair to tar Islam with one brush etc. It seems like the same standard does not apply somehow to Catholicism. :confused:


This is something you keep overlooking. This is something which is swept under the rug. And this is something defenders of the Catholic Church refuse to recognize....again and again.

And it something that has now been condemned, swept from out of under the rug and is being dealt with by the Church and secular authorities.


I explained this in numerous posts. I cited Chrurch law. I cited Church Cathechism and I cites Chrurch Hole Tradition. I proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Catholic God is evil....and that per extend of that proof the Church is an evil and criminal entity.

You haven't actually cited anything from the catechism etc that proves that these abuse cases reflect Catholic dogma. You haven't proven that the "Catholic God" is evil either. You're getting carried away with rhetoric here.


You can NOT deny that if the official Church dogma is that a Saint is the embodyment of Gods will that when you recognize a genocidal maniac as a saint and canonize him...you are saying: His deeds are the will of God and the embodyment of how God wants us to be.

Err... I've never actually heard that definition ever. A Saint is just a human, no more no less. Saints can also be decanonised, and this has happened in the past.



"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."Matthew 10:34-37 (http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/sb.html?Matthew%2010:34-37)

Well for a start that passage is usually classified as hyperbolic and secondly it is usually taken to mean that you have to abandon all attachments to be a true Christian. No one in their right mind would say that that passage advocates killing their mother-in-law and the same for the passage in Luke.



The Catholic church is, together with the Orthodox church unique in all Abrahamic religions that it is the only arbiter of what is considered true faith and the true word of God. And the Catholic faith goes further in that notion than the Orthodox Church.

That's not true. The Grand Muftis? The Grand Ayatollahs? The Chief Rabbi's? The Archbishop of Canterbury?


Maybe...but it is true. As is the Church guilty of repeated crimes against humanity and induviduals...and is in fact a premeditated criminal organisation.

Nonsense. The Church has done many bad things, and even the Church admits that but at the same time the Church has done many good things and contributed to human progress. A criminal organisation like the mafia can't really be said to have done the same, can it?


No...actually it does not. As the Catholic Church more than other other religious entity has millenia of history behind it which is filled during every age and era with the exact same exampes of criminal behaviour. As such...the Catholic Church is a criminal entity.

Ah, so we'll attack the Catholic Church because it's older but we'll ignore the fact that according to statistics the Protestant denominations are actually worse- and in the meantime we'll actually completely forget the real victims in all of this, and we'll also ignore the fact that this kind of vile abuse exists outside the church too.

[PhoenixAsh]

Oh... not because perhaps people were Medieval and not exposed to modern enlightenment values and ways of thinking? It's not like things were much different before the Catholic Church either. Life in pagan societies was pretty dismal too.

But they didn;t make it part of their official church doctrine and thereby making it specifically part of he faith and teachings of God.


They didn't really sanctify these things as dogma. I don't Catholics recite these things at catechism classes somehow. But yet again, you are dealing with several hundred years ago. How is that relevant to now?Because...as I have explained again and again and again....Holy Tradition is considered by the Catholic Faith as to be the true faith.


And that same Church has denounced these things, apologised and so on...No...they SAID they were sorry. But NEVER retracted official church dogma or altered it. There is a HUGE difference when you consider how Catholicism works. Now you should know this....seeing as I have pretty much restatted why that is over and over again.



That's a big jump really isn't it? When rightwingers use that kind of post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning to condemn communism the left it is usually belittled. But unlike them I can intrinsically link this to the religion and practices. Unlike them...they can only link this to a specific party in a specific country which admitted itself it is not communist. Ergo...your argument fails on that respect.


Well most religions claim that to a certain extent. Why single out Catholicism? When there was guy here who was adamantly against Islam he got banned and people pointed out that despite the reactionary nature of Islam and the countless list of atrocities it was not fair to tar Islam with one brush etc. It seems like the same standard does not apply somehow to Catholicism. :confused:Because Islam is not a unity church. And Catholicism IS.


And it something that has now been condemned, swept from out of under the rug and is being dealt with by the Church and secular authorities. No. In fact the Church continues today to cover up such incidents and does not give complete openness.


You haven't actually cited anything from the catechism etc that proves that these abuse cases reflect Catholic dogma. You haven't proven that the "Catholic God" is evil either. You're getting carried away with rhetoric here.Yes I have.
The fact that they are declared saints alone is CANONIZATION...which is part of official Holy Tradition.

You try to talk past that irrefutable fact....opr you are not aware of what Cathechism, Canonisation, Eucomincal council and papal edicts are and how they fit in.



Err... I've never actually heard that definition ever. A Saint is just a human, no more no less. Saints can also be decanonised, and this has happened in the past. You should do some research into the matter as it is pretty obvious y9ou have no idea how the Church views officially declared saints.


Well for a start that passage is usually classified as hyperbolic and secondly it is usually taken to mean that you have to abandon all attachments to be a true Christian. No one in their right mind would say that that passage advocates killing their mother-in-law and the same for the passage in Luke. Nobody in their right mind would argue in light of numerous other texts and the history of the church and their official Holy Tradition of horrors....that this reflects anything but a restatement of fact that God simply doesn't give a fuck about humans. In fact...the only people who would argue that it is allegorical or hyperbolic are the ones who wish to conceal and protect teh Church from being seen for what it is.


That's not true. The Grand Muftis? The Grand Ayatollahs? The Chief Rabbi's? The Archbishop of Canterbury? There is no Anglican Church with a single judicial on teachings. All Anglican churches are autonomous. In fact...the Anglican COMMUNION...which is its true name...points out exactly what it is: a communion. NOR is the Archbishop recognised as the one having a direct line with God...unlike the Pope....NOR does he hold sole control over the faith. So no...that is completely different....nor is he the head of the religion....again...unlike the Pope.

The Grand Mufti is NOT a head of Islam. It is a head of a specific part of Islam. NOR are his decrees binding...Grand Mufti's were part of the govenment and NOT the head of Islam.

The Grand Ayatholla's. Agian...no the head of Islam. Also..the Ayatholla are only grand when the followers refer to them more often. And ...well...there are currently 70 of them. Unlike the ONE pope.

Grand Rabbi's...now I do no need to tell you judaism is not a singular led religion. But tell me...who is the absolute Rabbi of the world Judeaic belives? Or...are Chief Rabbi's leaders of national jewish communisties....unlike the pope...who is the sole head of world wide communism.

So no...nothing like Catholicism. And yes...what I said was true.


Nonsense. The Church has done many bad things, and even the Church admits that but at the same time the Church has done many good things and contributed to human progress. A criminal organisation like the mafia can't really be said to have done the same, can it?Yes it can.


Ah, so we'll attack the Catholic Church because it's older but we'll ignore the fact that according to statistics the Protestant denominations are actually worse- and in the meantime we'll actually completely forget the real victims in all of this, and we'll also ignore the fact that this kind of vile abuse exists outside the church too.Listen to what you are arguing: "worse"

And no...I do not agree. Protestantism is NOT a singular entity. Unlike the Catholic Church. Protestantism as a whole does NOT recognize tradition as part of official teachings of the word of God.

And the vile abuse existing outside the Church was never part of offical church dogma. So no...the Catholic Church is a criminal organisation...and it should be destroyed.

What goves you the idea that I would not make the exact same sort of arguments for the destruction of every other religious hierarchy out there? This debate partains the Catholic Church. So I give arguments which partain to the Catholic Church.

I am equally for destroying all protestant religions, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism etc. as religious hierarchical structures.

[ComradeMan]

But they didn;t make it part of their official church doctrine and thereby making it specifically part of he faith and teachings of God.

Never heard of the Divine Emperor? The Pharoahs who were gods incarnate? Sorry.. but they did.


Because...as I have explained again and again and again....Holy Tradition is considered by the Catholic Faith as to be the true faith.

And most religions hold that position..... Also your accusations are not found in the catechism and also Holy Tradition is not static, it evolves and changes with time. Vatican II?


No...they SAID they were sorry. But NEVER retracted official church dogma or altered it. There is a HUGE difference when you consider how Catholicism works. Now you should know this....seeing as I have pretty much restatted why that is over and over again.

There was no Church dogma on this!!! There is nothing that says a Catholic must go on a crusade, be an abuser or generally commit negative and illegal acts.


But unlike them I can intrinsically link this to the religion and practices. Unlike them...they can only link this to a specific party in a specific country which admitted itself it is not communist. Ergo...your argument fails on that respect.

Err... according to you. There's plenty to find in Marxist readings that could be used to justify the wholescale acts of murder that have been perpetrated in the name of various "communist" regimes, far more than in the catechism of the Catholic Church.


Because Islam is not a unity church. And Catholicism IS.

So what? They still have leaders whose spiritual rulings are considered as much doctrine as a Papal ruling is considered for Catholics.


No. In fact the Church continues today to cover up such incidents and does not give complete openness.

Evidence please. Because all of the evidence suggests the contrary- it has come out from under the carpet and is being dealt with.


Yes I have.
The fact that they are declared saints alone is CANONIZATION...which is part of official Holy Tradition.

No you haven't, because your definition of a saint would actually be heretical within Catholicism.

The only embodiment of the word of God for a Catholic is Jesus Christ, the Word was made flesh.


You try to talk past that irrefutable fact....opr you are not aware of what Cathechism, Canonisation, Eucomincal council and papal edicts are and how they fit in.

Saints can be canonised and decanonised and they don't fit with your definition. It seems you aren't aware of the catechism. Show me where in the catechism it justifies these crimes of which you speak?


Nobody in their right mind would argue in light of numerous other texts and the history of the church and their official Holy Tradition of horrors....that this reflects anything but a restatement of fact that God simply doesn't give a fuck about humans. In fact...the only people who would argue that it is allegorical or hyperbolic are the ones who wish to conceal and protect teh Church from being seen for what it is.

So were the Jesuits who protected the Guarani indians and helped preserve their culture part of the Holy Tradition of Horrors? Or the priests fighting organised crime in Naples and risking their lives for it? For example... or what about the 700-800,000 Jews that the Catholic Church saved during WWII? Do we also ignore that the Catholic Church is one of the, if not the, biggest charitable organisations in the world?

What you are doing here is basically saying anyone who disagrees with your views on this matter is de facto complicit in this Holy Tradition of Horrors etc- you're affirming the antecedent.


There is no Anglican Church with a single judicial on teachings. All Anglican churches are autonomous. In fact...the Anglican COMMUNION...which is its true name...points out exactly what it is: a communion. NOR is the Archbishop recognised as the one having a direct line with God...unlike the Pope....NOR does he hold sole control over the faith. So no...that is completely different....nor is he the head of the religion....again...unlike the Pope.

The Archbishop of Canterbury is the spiritual leader of the Anglican Communion and recognised as primus inter pares within that communion. By the Act of Supremacy it was the King of England who had the direct connection with God... lol.


The Grand Mufti is NOT a head of Islam. It is a head of a specific part of Islam. NOR are his decrees binding...Grand Mufti's were part of the govenment and NOT the head of Islam. The Grand Ayatholla's. Agian...no the head of Islam. Also..the Ayatholla are only grand when the followers refer to them more often. And ...well...there are currently 70 of them. Unlike the ONE pope.

You seem to be forgetting that the Pope is not the Grand Head of Christianity, Catholicism is a denomination within Christianity. Now, every denomination usually proclaims it's validity over the others and that's the same also in Islam and Judaism.


Grand Rabbi's...now I do no need to tell you judaism is not a singular led religion. But tell me...who is the absolute Rabbi of the world Judeaic belives? Or...are Chief Rabbi's leaders of national jewish communisties....unlike the pope...who is the sole head of world wide communism.

But the Pope is not the worldwide leader of Christianity, merely the biggest denomination.


Yes it can.

What?


Listen to what you are arguing: "worse"

Come on, that's a cheap shot because you know what was meant- okay, more frequent.


And no...I do not agree. Protestantism is NOT a singular entity. Unlike the Catholic Church. Protestantism as a whole does NOT recognize tradition as part of official teachings of the word of God.

So what? Take each of these Protestant entities to task. I'm sorry, but now it sounds like you are saying it's worse when Catholics do it- I know, at least hope, that that's now what you mean- but it sure sounds like it.


And the vile abuse existing outside the Church was never part of offical church dogma. So no...the Catholic Church is a criminal organisation...and it should be destroyed.

And the vile abuse within the Church was never part of official Church dogma either. Matthew 18:6 and Mark 9:42 basically condemns anyone who would harm a child.

"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

The other part of the problem is that there are 1 billion Catholics who might not want their Church destroyed.

[PhoenixAsh]

Never heard of the Divine Emperor? The Pharoahs who were gods incarnate? Sorry.. but they did.

Are any of these Abrahamic religions? No.


And most religions hold that position..... Also your accusations are not found in the catechism and also Holy Tradition is not static, it evolves and changes with time. Vatican II?

Vatican II did not establish this.



There was no Church dogma on this!!! There is nothing that says a Catholic must go on a crusade, be an abuser or generally commit negative and illegal acts.

No but the life of these criminals and their crimes are seen as the will of God and are condoned as being holy in nature.


Err... according to you.

No according to Church canon.


So what? They still have leaders whose spiritual rulings are considered as much doctrine as a Papal ruling is considered for Catholics.

not by the entire faith. Not as part of the church hierarchy and function.

You know this...you are just tryig to shift blame.


Evidence please. Because all of the evidence suggests the contrary- it has come out from under the carpet and is being dealt with.
No...it was forced out from under the carpet. And there have been numerous new cases after the pope made its speech which were uncovered and NOT named by the Church. So yeah...pretty much follow the time line.


No you haven't, because your definition of a saint would actually be heretical within Catholicism.

No...its actually in the Church canons. I get all my information from those official sources and texts.



The only embodiment of the word of God for a Catholic is Jesus Christ, the Word was made flesh.

No..actually the Church cathechismus states otherwise.

You keep arguing points by bringing forth arguments the Catholic Church officially does not agree with.


Saints can be canonised and decanonised and they don't fit with your definition. It seems you aren't aware of the catechism. Show me where in the catechism it justifies these crimes of which you speak?

I have already explained to you that a saint is somebody who lives the will of God.



So were the Jesuits who protected the Guarani indians and helped preserve their culture part of the Holy Tradition of Horrors? Or the priests fighting organised crime in Naples and risking their lives for it? For example... or what about the 700-800,000 Jews that the Catholic Church saved during WWII?

Or the many more it condemend to death? Or the many more who, backed up by Eucominical council, justified slavery, genocide and mass murder?

No...The protection of the Guarani indians by the Jesuits was NOT official Church dogma...but it was however a defense of their own coversion efforts. It was not a noble: protect the indiginous people. NOR was it official Church policy...as you are well aware the Pope signed the expulsion edict for the entire order from the Catholic Faith...and endorsed military campaigns and other supressive measures against them....most notably BECAUSE of the efforts to protect their missions ;)

They were only restored in 1814.



What you are doing here is basically saying anyone who disagrees with your views on this matter is de facto complicit in this Holy Tradition of Horrors etc- you're affirming the antecedent.

yes...because it is true.


The Archbishop of Canterbury is the spiritual leader of the Anglican Communion and recognised as primus inter pares within that communion. By the Act of Supremacy it was the King of England who had the direct connection with God... lol.

Exactly.



You seem to be forgetting that the Pope is not the Grand Head of Christianity, Catholicism is a denomination within Christianity. Now, every denomination usually proclaims it's validity over the others and that's the same also in Islam and Judaism.

But he is the head of the Catholics. The Grand Mufti is not holding the same authority in Sunni religion.


But the Pope is not the worldwide leader of Christianity, merely the biggest denomination.

Sigh






So what? Take each of these Protestant entities to task. I'm sorry, but now it sounds like you are saying it's worse when Catholics do it- I know, at least hope, that that's now what you mean- but it sure sounds like it.

Exactly



And the vile abuse within the Church was never part of official Church dogma either. Matthew 18:6 and Mark 9:42 basically condemns anyone who would harm a child.

Ah...then we agree that the Church is a criminal organisation and goes agianst religion and the word of God and therefore misleads and muisguides million of people knwingly. And therefore needs to be destroyed. Excellent!



The other part of the problem is that there are 1 billion Catholics who might not want their Church destroyed.

Yes...very unfortunate for them...

[ComradeMan]

Are any of these Abrahamic religions? No.

Well the original point was pagan religions before Catholicism.


Vatican II did not establish this.

Establish what? The point was to show that the Church does indeed evolve and change and is not a static entity.


No but the life of these criminals and their crimes are seen as the will of God and are condoned as being holy in nature.

No they aren't unless you want to take the most absurd and extreme position on matters and ignore Papal apologies too.


No...it was forced out from under the carpet. And there have been numerous new cases after the pope made its speech which were uncovered and NOT named by the Church. So yeah...pretty much follow the time line.

Which ones to be exact? As far as the current Pope I have heard of only one case in which he may have actually known directly.


No...its actually in the Church canons. I get all my information from those official sources and texts.


I have already explained to you that a saint is somebody who lives the will of God.

Well please provide a link or source from an official Catholic site that says a saint is the embodiment of the Word of God on Earth- despite the fact that it's heretical. In Catholicism the only person who is the embodiment of the word of God is Jesus Christ.


No..actually the Church cathechismus states otherwise.

Well please quote/source here were the catechism of the Catholic Church corresponds to your view. Saints are merely considered to be the good souls already saved in Heaven. They are not embodiments of the Word.
You said the embodiment of the Word of God. I've already explained to you that Saints can be made and un-made too.


You keep arguing points by bringing forth arguments the Catholic Church officially does not agree with.

Like what?


Or the many more it condemend to death?

How many did it condemn to death then? Exactly how?

Well please say what they are and how? I also refer you to this The Myth of Hitler's Pope, Rabbi David G. Dalin (2005) the writings too of Rabbi Eugenio Zolli who was the Chief Rabbi of Rome and was sheltered by the Vatican during WWII.

"The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe. he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all... the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism ... he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace." New York Times Editorial 25th December 1941.cited in
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/7336

"In Rome, some 4,000 Italian Jews and prisoners of war avoided deportation, many of them hidden in safe houses or evacuated from Italy by a resistance group organized by an Irish priest, Hugh O'Flaherty. Once a Vatican ambassador to Egypt, Haiti, Santo Domingo and Czechoslovakia, Fr. O'Flaherty used his political connections to help secure sanctuary for dispossessed Jews.[24] Delia Murphy, wife of the Irish ambassador, assisted him. While Vatican was on decent terms with Mussolini and the Pope disliked leftists Pope Pius XII allowed church efforts to use churches and resources to smuggle Jews out. Many priests, including a future Cardinal and future Archbishops, participated. The Vatican also reportedly had an ambassador persuade Franco to allow Jews to flee across the French border with Spain."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_individuals_and_groups_assisting_Jews_duri ng_the_Holocaust#In_Italy


Or the many more who, backed up by Eucominical council, justified slavery, genocide and mass murder?

Which Ecumenical Council? There have only been four in the last 500 years.

I also refer you to non-ecumenical documents such as Sicut Dudum 1435 in which the Pope condemned slavery, Sublimus Deus 1537 in which the Pope compared slavers to allies of Satan which was accompanied by a document which threatened excommunication for slavers. Of course the King of Spain did not like this much and forced the Pope to withdraw these documents the following year with Non Indecens Videtur. A century or more later The Holy Office of the Iquisition, 1686, also rejected any attempt to justify slavery of Africans and forbade Catholics to participate in it.

The issue of slavery and the Catholic Church is checkered, but basically it had existed long before the church and was seen as normal in just about every society throughout the world. However Vatican II, the last Ecumenical Council, denounced slavery as an infamy and condemned it. But were Catholics and the Catholic church the only guilty parties? Was it right no? But was it an intrinsic part of Catholicism? Err... no.


No...The protection of the Guarani indians by the Jesuits was NOT official Church dogma...but it was however a defense of their own coversion efforts. It was not a noble: protect the indiginous people. NOR was it official Church policy...as you are well aware the Pope signed the expulsion edict for the entire order from the Catholic Faith...and endorsed military campaigns and other supressive measures against them....most notably BECAUSE of the efforts to protect their missions

Ah, so when the Catholic Society of Jesus does something that is good it's not part of dogma, I see- it's only dogma when it's bad. The Jesuits actually protected the Guarani from Spanish and Portuguese slavers. The Jesuits were being expelled by temporal powers before the papal suppression and despite the efforts of the popes not to condemn them. European monarchs and their governments basically blackmailed the pope into suppressing the Jesuits.

I'm sorry but you are claiming all kinds of things that read more like a 16th century Protestant polemic against Catholicism- De Bijenktorf der Heilige Roomse Kerk. Perhaps you should change your name to Marnix.

You keep choosing to ignore facts or refusing to respond to certain points of questions too.

Basically, you have decided that you hate the Catholic Church and it does not matter what is said you have already decided. You keep citing Canon, but you ignore the fact that the abuse cases are already condemned by the Code of Canon Law.

[PhoenixAsh]

823 "The Church . . . is held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy. This is because Christ, the Son of God, who with the Father and the Spirit is hailed as 'alone holy,' loved the Church as his Bride, giving himself up for her so as to sanctify her; he joined her to himself as his body and endowed her with the gift of the Holy Spirit for the glory of God." 289 (http://www.kofc.org/un/catechism/getnote.action?par=823&fnote=289) The Church, then, is "the holy People of God," 290 (http://www.kofc.org/un/catechism/getnote.action?par=823&fnote=290) and her members are called "saints." 291 (http://www.kofc.org/un/catechism/getnote.action?par=823&fnote=291)

- Cathchism of the Catholic Church



Saints can be made and un-made too.

No they can no be made an unmade. The Catholic Church does not make saints...

828 By canonizing some of the faithful, i.e., by solemnly pro claiming that they practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God's grace, the Church recognizes the power of the Spirit of holiness within her and sustains the hope of believers by proposing the saints to them as models and intercessors. 303 (http://www.kofc.org/un/catechism/getnote.action?par=828&fnote=303) "The saints have always been the source and origin of renewal in the most difficult moments in the Church's history." 304 (http://www.kofc.org/un/catechism/getnote.action?par=828&fnote=304) Indeed, "holiness is the hidden source and infallible measure of her apostolic activity and missionary zeal." 305 (http://www.kofc.org/un/catechism/getnote.action?par=828&fnote=305)




Going to do the rest later...

[ComradeMan]

823 "The Church . . . is held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy. This is because Christ, the Son of God, who with the Father and the Spirit is hailed as 'alone holy,' loved the Church as his Bride, giving himself up for her so as to sanctify her; he joined her to himself as his body and endowed her with the gift of the Holy Spirit for the glory of God." 289 (http://www.kofc.org/un/catechism/getnote.action?par=823&fnote=289) The Church, then, is "the holy People of God," 290 (http://www.kofc.org/un/catechism/getnote.action?par=823&fnote=290) and her members are called "saints." 291 (http://www.kofc.org/un/catechism/getnote.action?par=823&fnote=291)

That doesn't mean that the Church cannot make mistakes nor denies those mistakes. The last two Popes in particular have admitted many errors on the part of the Church. Are you arguing that these Popes are heretics now? You are mistaking the concept of infallibility- this concerns the theological teachings of the Gospels and Catholic theology, papal infallibility is when the Pope speaks/writes etc, ex cathedra. This does not mean that if a given member of the church does something which is wrong or illegal it is justified by the ideas of infallibilty.


No they can no be made an unmade. The Catholic Church does not make saints...

Wrong, firstly you are confusing the two uses of the word saint. A saint can refer to any person deemed good or holy within the Church as part of the communion of saints and the goodly. A canonised, i.e. recognised by church rule, saint has been beatified and canonised by the Church. Saints have been "decanonised" in the past, especially after Vatican II, usually in the case where they were considered dubious, ahistorical or unsaintly- for example St Ursula. They are removed from the official calendar and although veneration may continue at a local traditional level they are generally not considered important. There are also different categories of saints according to their cultus and some saints were never "officially" canonised anyway- they were just local cults.

[PhoenixAsh]

That doesn't mean that the Church cannot make mistakes nor denies those mistakes. The last two Popes in particular have admitted many errors on the part of the Church. Are you arguing that these Popes are heretics now?

Well actually...that means exactly that. It is UNFAILINGLY Holy. So apparantly...whatever the Church does...it is holy.


Wrong, firstly you are confusing the two uses of the word saint. A saint can refer to any person deemed good or holy within the Church as part of the communion of saints and the goodly. A canonised saint has been beatified and canonised by the Church. Saints have been "decanonised" in the past, especially after Vatican II, usually in the case where they were considered dubious, ahistorical or unsaintly- for example St Ursula. They are removed from the official calendar and although veneration may continue at a local traditional level they are generally not considered important.

but as you are well aware you are not talking about creating Saints. You are talking about the process of recognizing sainst and canonizing them.

The official position of the curium is that the Church RECOGNIZES saints. NOT that they create them.


And what you refer to after V II was cleaning up the registry from made up saints and non-christian saints....and saints which did not get canonized by any investigation and about who is known very little.

for example Saint Valentine...nothing was known about him. (Calendarium Romanum ex Decreto Sacrosancti Œcumenici Concilii Vaticani II Instauratum Auctoritate Pauli PP. VI Promulgatum)

[ComradeMan]

Well actually...that means exactly that. It is UNFAILINGLY Holy. So apparantly...whatever the Church does...it is holy.

The Church is the Bride of Christ- however it does not presume that it's members are unfailingly holy- it can't because this too would be heretical. And if this were the case, which it isn't, you still can't answer why the last two Popes made numerous apologies for the errors of the past. If the Church were unfailingly Holy then priests ets would not go to confession, would they? Even the Pope has a confessor. In light of the abuse scandals the current Pope referred to the "filth of the church".


The official position of the curium is that the Church RECOGNIZES saints. NOT that they create them.

Yeah but let's face it, if you haven't been recognised no one is officially going to call you a "Saint" are they? It's no good citing the Middle-Ages either because we are dealing with radically different times and attitudes.


And what you refer to after V II was cleaning up the registry from made up saints and non-christian saints....and saints which did not get canonized by any investigation and about who is known very little. for example Saint Valentine...nothing was known about him. (Calendarium Romanum ex Decreto Sacrosancti Œcumenici Concilii Vaticani II Instauratum Auctoritate Pauli PP. VI Promulgatum)

So Saints can be and are "unrecognised" if you like.

[Ele'ill]

Dead Island and beer

[PhoenixAsh]

oOOO....That almost beats what I am doing...

[danyboy27]

Dead Island and beer

red orchestra 2 beta and maple wishkey.

you got OWNED.

[#FF0000]

red orchestra 2 beta and maple wishkey.

you got OWNED.

SAME HERE BRAH

steam id please

[PhoenixAsh]

Fez up...who lost the duck and the rabbi

:sneaky:

[Red Commissar]

That feeling when you have a liberal friend trying to make excuses for Obama

:laugh:

[RGacky3]

That feeling when you have a liberal friend trying to make excuses for Obama


First campaign, HOPE AND CHANGE.

Second campaign, ehhh common look at the republicans they're nuts, change takes a while, common ...

[danyboy27]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkfs9xl0Ss1qc97bxo1_400.jpg
here is a picture of the bottle of maple whiskey i purchased this weekend. Locally produced.

[Ele'ill]

I'm surprised Lt Ferret hasn't tried a sockpuppet yet.

[PhoenixAsh]

O....right...he was banned no? Forgot about that. Wondered where he was off to.

Maybe he has...who knows...

[Ele'ill]

I guess it wouldn't be a sockpuppet it would just be a proxy. Anyways I'm actually not that surprised as he would be pretty easy to spot, his positions were always so asinine.

[PhoenixAsh]

cowboys and aliens is a really stupid movie.

[PhoenixAsh]

I have just finished it...and I honestly do not get the point of this story. At all.

Either I am too freaking stupid for it...or it really is a pointless movie.

Don't get me wrong...I don't think anybody should be shot over making this....it had its moments. But there would definately need to be someone lined up agaist the wal and slapped silly with wet sweat socks.

[Sasha]

could be worse, you could have watched this

fTjI48HSqtM

[PhoenixAsh]

damnit...I now did that too... :mad::mad::mad:

I bet that was your evil plan all along :sneaky::sneaky::sneaky:


She must have done an "evil genius for boys" in her "how to" repetoire

:lol:

[Sasha]

damnit...I now did that too... :mad::mad::mad:

I bet that was your evil plan all along :sneaky::sneaky::sneaky:


http://www.annienzpsychic.net/animationangelthinking.gif
http://media.photobucket.com/image/angel%20animated/Agent777-Praise/angelAnimatedGivingFlowers.gif

[PhoenixAsh]

meh...more like this:

http://www.best-horror-movies.com/image-files/the-omen-damien-crosses.jpg

[RGacky3]

O....right...he was banned no? Forgot about that. Wondered where he was off to.

Maybe he has...who knows...


I always figured his political outlook was one that came from personal insecurities, (as it many times is with elitist ideologies).

[PhoenixAsh]

I just thought he had a funny avatar...and some mildly interesting stories.

[RGacky3]

When you get in a debate with him, it starts comming out, the transparent disdain for poor people, the anti-feminism, concepts of superiority and so on, its like Rush Limbaugh, you listen to him for a bit and how he talks about different people and himself and you realize that this goes deeper than some political ideology, Rush clearly has some self-loathing and tries to take care of it by putting people down ideologically, by claiming there are a group of people that are juts shit, undeserving and that their lot in life is deserved because they did'nt work as hard as him who made it, couple that with an adoration of power and a clear desire to be associated with the powerful.

Its the same sort of thinking that some racists employ.

[PhoenixAsh]

OMGZ....there was an earthquake in the Netherlands...

the damage...was really horrible....

http://media.nu.nl/m/m1ezud6asree_396.jpg

[Le Rouge]

Holy shit... Let's hope nobody died exept a few ants

[xub3rn00dlex]

Holy shit... Let's hope nobody died exept a few ants

WHAT?! Dude, ants are one of the most prole species on this planet. All they do is work for an elitist queen.

[Ele'ill]

RGacky has a weak back. Why even bother changing your avatar, it looks like you've lost mass, bruh.





















bruh :lol:

[Landsharks eat metal]

RGacky has a weak back. Why even bother changing your avatar, it looks like you've lost mass, bruh.

:lol:

Honestly, when I first came here, I didn't realize what Gacky's avatar was. I used to think it was some sort of weird dog. :blushing:

[Ele'ill]

Honestly, when I first came here, I didn't realize what Gacky's avatar was. I used to think it was some sort of weird dog. :blushing:


:lol:

[RGacky3]

RGacky has a weak back. Why even bother changing your avatar, it looks like you've lost mass, bruh.


Its not my back, its a weird dog.

[Bud Struggle]

I'm back from Spain and I joined the CNT! It seems they are still around--not that much interest in Revolution. Not much anti-clericalism either. But still a pretty strong union. A LOT more radical than the AFL-CIO. Actually that don't much think of the AFL-CIO types as brothers.

Anyway I could join because the rules say (or at least they way they were translated to me) that people like the police can't join--but it never said anything about factory owners. I had the guy read it to me twice to make sure I wasn't breaking any rules. They are kind of like the IWW--not so specxific about certain unions in dertain workplaces.

They get lots of inquiries about the CNT from college kids--but it seems I was the first real American working man that has asked questions in quite a while.

Anyway--they are a regula union with LOTS of different rules from regular American unions. more later. Got to get a little sleep-. I slept on the plane--but you know how that goes.

(And I did all this in between by Bourgeois wife wanting to sightsee and shop--damn Bourgeois --always wanting to corrupt the Revolution. :D )

[Bud Struggle]

Its not my back, its a weird dog.

You cleaned up the picture. :)

[PhoenixAsh]

They grow up sooo fast :crying: But you always know...they are going to be your special little baby badger

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4Buev2eybnY/SZBDCHJBfnI/AAAAAAAAEuQ/gKlnuynVxlg/s400/snowdrop.jpg

http://www.lakesidenaturecenter.org/images/RT_BB%20badger%20baby%201%20Chris%20Mitchell.jpg


:P :P

[praxis1966]

^Beware of face ripping.

[Ele'ill]

I'm gonna be testing out this new avatar. What do you all think? It's pretty hot.


This of course means that I'll be assuming the character of it- for the duration of it's usage. It's not like anybody can do anything about it.

[Ballyfornia]

They grow up sooo fast :crying: But you always know...they are going to be your special little baby badger

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4Buev2eybnY/SZBDCHJBfnI/AAAAAAAAEuQ/gKlnuynVxlg/s400/snowdrop.jpg

http://www.lakesidenaturecenter.org/images/RT_BB%20badger%20baby%201%20Chris%20Mitchell.jpg


:P :P

That is the cutest thing that could possibly maul my face off.

[Bud Struggle]

Where I am sitting.

Lots of drama whether Bud is here or not. /where I sit.


Then you haven't been watching. (Or as you say: sitting--which seems to be a particularly worldwide "Communist" position these days.:rolleyes: :D) I do my job here. I don't break the rules and I try to make things interesting.

If you want to pretend otherwise--that's up to you.

And I'm not trying to be mean or rude or insulting. I don't do that. I'm interested in a better world. I don't know if you Commies are the way to go. I'ld like to discuss the potentials with you. I think a bunch of you are are pretty smart (that an $1.00 will get you a cup of coffee.) I think a bunch of you are hopeless dreamers and some of you are true nutcases. And occasionally there is a real visionary post.

But I think there's a real hope for the future here. And for the most part they--we--are all good people hoping for the best. Ban me if you want--but I'm one of those people hopeing for the best.

[Ele'ill]

Then you haven't been watching. (Or sitting--which seems to be a particularly worldwide "Communist" position these days.:rolleyes: :D) I do my job here. I don't break the rules and I try to make things interesting.

If you want to pretend otherwise--that's up to you.


I think Children Of The Revolution was saying that there's drama regardless if you're here not breaking the rules. I'll elaborate- regardless if you're here or not there's always forum drama.

[Bud Struggle]

I think Children Of The Revolution was saying that there's drama regardless if you're here not breaking the rules. I'll elaborate- regardless if you're here or not there's always forum drama.

I know--I just expanded on the point. We can't be all "true believers" in Communism. But for those of us of the "uncommitted" an occasional chat with you Commies is worth a post or two.

You have some good ideas.

We can learn fron each other.

The Cold War is over.

Really.

[Ele'ill]

What?

[Bud Struggle]

What?

Peace, Love and Understanding.

[Skooma Addict]

I know--I just expanded on the point. We can't be all "true believers" in Communism. But for those of us of the "uncommitted" an occasional chat with you Commies is worth a post or two.

You have some good ideas.

We can learn fron each other.

The Cold War is over.

Really.
That made perfect sense.

[Ele'ill]

So rapidly you travel away from the original point....

[Bud Struggle]

That made perfect sense.

Well thank you..

[Bud Struggle]

So rapidly you travel away from the original point....

And you from mine. Let's meet at the equator.

[Ele'ill]

And you from mine. Let's meet at the equator.

But I made the original point- you traveled from it fast. Rather than addressing the point itself you made something up and then commented on it yourself.

[Ele'ill]

Bud, I'm clearly right here. If I'm wrong then why are you still not addressing the point that I originally made and instead are talking about geographic locations?

[Ele'ill]

I have to go get more beer.


Still no reply, I see I've won. Well that's nothing new, I'll just add this to my real life journal that details 'conversations with Bud Struggle'. Fantastical responses just don't win jesus christ I'm drunk goodnight

[Bud Struggle]

I have to go get more beer.


Still no reply, I see I've won. Well that's nothing new, I'll just add this to my real life journal that details 'conversations with Bud Struggle'. Fantastical responses just don't win jesus christ I'm drunk goodnight

I am too. (Chablis)

You win the fight. (were we having a fight?)

[Bud Struggle]

Marl3L--we should have more fights like these.

You are a sweetheart.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

It's been too long since I've had any ale.

[Ele'ill]

Yeah wow, this conversation and this avatar.

So I went to a restaurant and then used wifi yesterday and this is what happens.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

It reminds me of Patrick Stewart.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Two things--

1. I've never done it before this weekend, but sports betting is a lot of fun. Not only does it allow you to actually care about football games, you can also win money.

2. It feels great to be back in the US, or what I mean is off of that fucking ship. woo-hoo!

[PhoenixAsh]

Yesterdays damage:

3 people:
0.6 liters of Vodka
0.5 liters of Tequilla
0.7 liters of Malibu (don't ask....)
0.6 liters of rum
0.3 liters of Kahlua
1.0 liter of wine
And...some "herbs" (which has a fucking "h" in it...just so you know :P)

[RGacky3]

http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/190112/slide_190112_355824_huge.jpg

"So Here are Wallstreet profits, and here is the working class."

http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/190112/slide_190112_355799_huge.jpg

"See you in China."

http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/190112/slide_190112_355790_huge.jpg

"Wow, Bank of America is gonna LOOOVVVE this place."

[RGacky3]

http://radiorevolt.no/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Barack_Obama_with_Superman.jpg

"Don't fear the people wallstreet Obamaman is here to divert them."

http://caledoniyya.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/obama2.jpg?w=300&h=192

"OK Africa, everybody give a warm African welcome to Conoco Philips."

http://static.e24.no/drpublish/images/article/2011/09/08/20097352/1/590/Barack_Obama__Ben_Bierman__Chris_Gronet.jpg

"So this whole section will be downsized, and we'll double out profits."

"Well my job is done here."

[#FF0000]

Oh Gacky.

I got home at 4 in the morning last night. Went to New York City to see a band that I think I've mentioned a few times called the pillows.

Me and the crew decided we wanted to get to NYC early so we went ahead and ended up getting there before noon. Since the show was at 7 PM, we just decided to go around New York City with a local friend as our guide. We walked almost 15 miles, I think, over the course of the day before going to the show. While I was wearing shoes that were little more than slippers.

But yeah the show (and the day in general) was one of the best experiences of my life. the pillows put on a great show alone but then coupled with the nostaliga bomb of seeing a band that has been a major part of your life since you were 14, and has only toured the US twice before, AND seeing them during a sorta turbulent time in my life, made it a pretty big deal for me.

brb submerging feet in foot bath thing and getting painkillers. they spent over 12 hours running, jumping, and getting stomped on.

[Le Libérer]

And...some "herbs" (which has a fucking "h" in it...just so you know :P)

Izzard FTW!

[Ele'ill]

Bud Struggle and I should be social networking friends.

[danyboy27]

An infraction that i received by KHAD a while ago is expiring today!
MhUHAHAHAHAHA.

http://image.com.com/tv/images/genie_images/story/2010_usa/C/community_modernwarfare3.jpg

[Bud Struggle]

An infraction that i received by KHAD a while ago is expiring today!
MhUHAHAHAHAHA.

http://image.com.com/tv/images/genie_images/story/2010_usa/C/community_modernwarfare3.jpg

Congrats!!!

The one I got from FF0000 seems to last forever. (

(I insluted Mohammed. :blink: )

[Ele'ill]

insluted Mohammed. :blink: )

:blink:

[danyboy27]

:blink:
:blink:

[Kotze]

(I insluted Mohammed. :blink: ):closedeyes: Inslution has to be the scummiest pick-up artist trick ever. Ban request.

[PhoenixAsh]

Really Bud, insluted?? :crying: I never knew you could go that low....it is not that I am angry, but I am very disappointed in you. Now go to your room and think about what you have done!!!

:cool:

[Ele'ill]

Bud's room comes to him, he got it in Sharper Image.

[PhoenixAsh]

This is quite telling....

lXKDu6cdXLI

:)

[Bud Struggle]

:closedeyes: Inslution has to be the scummiest pick-up artist trick ever. Ban request.

Hey I'm drunk!!!! Three martini lunches and all of that. (Well it's chablis again--and I'm in the middle of an argument between my sweet Rubella and her mommy about weather Duke is a good enough school for a little princess like her.) (Rubella that is.)

Mostly I'm just telling jokes and everyone is ignoring me. (Reminds me how Internet life reflects real life. :D )

[PhoenixAsh]

Hey I'm drunk!!!! Three martini lunches and all of that. (Well it's chablis again--and I'm in the middle of an argument between my sweet Rubella and her mommy about weather Duke is a good enough school for a little princess like her.) (Rubella that is.)

Mostly I'm just telling jokes and everyone is ignoring me. (Reminds me how Internet life reflects real life. :D )

Naaaah...I think we need to get that new guy in here...that colomn #4 character or whatever...for a good whipping with a spatula :) :P :P

[Bud Struggle]

Naaaah...I think we need to get that new guy in here...that colomn #4 character or whatever...for a good whipping with a spatula :) :P :P

I think so. Let me invite him in: I don't have the social stigma attached to me the way you Anarchists have. :)

[Havet]

guess who's back

back again

havet's back

tell a friend

[PhoenixAsh]

You were gone?? Handn't noticed

:P :P

Welcome back