Which country has come closest to achieving your political vision?

[Islamosocialist]

Feel free to share details about why it is close, and what it missed, if you wish!

And, also, if you can't pick a country--a movement, anything you wish. :)

For me, the closest would be Yugoslavia (late 1970s, early 1980s) or Scandinavia, especially Norway (late 1990s).

But, still, they're not perfect. They're just closest.

And you?

[Impulse97]

Cuba. They're far from perfect, but if I could live anywhere I'd go there.

Ah, so your a Titoist are you? I can see why they restricted you....:rolleyes:

[Islamosocialist]

Is that bad to be, here? :D

Posers. ;) We're one of the few people who actually lived anything close to socialism.

[Impulse97]

Not to be rude, but I think its nothing more than Revisionist BS. They began cooperating with western business almost from day one.

[RichardAWilson]

Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and the Netherlands. :cool: (Ranked in order)

[Islamosocialist]

Us, you mean? Or this forum?

Yeah, I'm not used to this place because that doesn't strike me as anything other than normal, ha! You think it's a bad thing?

We were always more socialist, more progressive, than the other dictatorships in Europe. And we had no love for the brutal Soviet Union. To me, it brings me great disappointment the world even assumes our systems were similar.

All our propaganda came from Mexico, thankfully. So we always had a richer view.

[Islamosocialist]

Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and the Netherlands. :cool: (Ranked in order)

Good choices. I think we view it similarly. :)

[NGNM85]

The example I would cite would be Revolutionary Spain, especially the Anarchist-dominated areas.

[RGacky3]

I'd have to say revolutionary spain as well, before people start pointing out that they killed priests and so on, I'm talking about the structures of the economy and the governance.

I think picking out countries is difficult, for example I greatly admire the Argeninian cooperatives, but not the government, the same goes with the co-determination policies of Germany, there are also many things I admire about Cuba, its very difficult to say "this country" when its more policies and institutions and movements.

[Islamosocialist]

Oh, in that case, Gacky, feel free to choose movements, etc. I'll edit the OP!

[WeAreReborn]

I would also have to go with Revolutionary Spain.


I'd have to say revolutionary spain as well, before people start pointing out that they killed priests and so on, I'm talking about the structures of the economy and the governance.

But the reason for killing priests was due to Spain's history. The Church was a brutal oppressor and it was as much as a sign of authority as the capitol building. Not to mention Spain never truly recovered from the regressive policies of the Church that sent it back a few hundred years in terms of technology. Not to say I necessarily condone the murder of priests, but I'm just putting it in perspective.

[RGacky3]

I understand the context, but a lot of people will try to argue against hte anarchist spanish and juts point out that innocent people were killed during a civil war ... (which is unnavoidable no matter who is engaged in a war).

I'm a big fan of the South African Shack dwellers movement, basically all syndicalist labor movements, in the United States in the early 1900s all the way to the 20s the IWW did some amazing stuff. The Zapatistas of coarse are a symbol of the people beating all odds.

[Bud Struggle]

Communist China. :):cool:

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Cuba.There might be poverty there, but it is socialist.

[Revolution starts with U]

Atlantis :bored:

[ComradeMan]

Atlantis :bored:

The Most Serene Republic of San Marino.
:lol:

& Atlantis.

[tobbinator]

Yugoslavia of the '60s to '70s and maybe Cuba to some extent.

Remember, these are what came closest and do not fully represent all my views

[TheGeekySocialist]

revolutionary Spain would probably be closest

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Communist China. :):cool:
WTF?:confused:Isn't China capitalist?

[thefinalmarch]

WTF?:confused:Isn't China capitalist?
Humour doesn't really translate all too well over the internet.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Humour doesn't really translate all too well over the internet.
Well I guessed before that the "Communist China" post is humour but.. oh well.

[Tomhet]

Revolutionary Spain, to a lesser extent, the Bolshevik revolution, other then that, none of them..

[Nox]

Scandinavia in general is pretty good.

[RGacky3]

Scandinavia in general is pretty good.


I'd say Norway did the Nordic Model the right way, and to a lesser extent, Denmark too. Lots of cooperative buisiness, and large state productive industries.

Rather than Sweedens tax and welfare system.

A country with what I consider the most communistic policy in the Capitalist world is Germany with Co-determination.

[StoneFrog]

Paris Commune but since its not a country, Yugoslavia which had better worker control than other countries. I see Yugoslavia more as a prototype, with some good and bad; the thing is they wanted to move in an innovative direction.

[RHIZOMES]

Movement: May 68

Country: Cuba

[Iron Felix]

Anarchist Catalonia, Makhno's Free Territory, the Paris Commune. And I'm not even an Anarchist.

[scarletghoul]

Red China, the Shanghai Commune in particular. Catalonia too.

[Tommy4ever]

Scandinavia in general is pretty good.

I thought you said you were a Stalinist? :confused:

[Nox]

A country with what I consider the most communistic policy in the Capitalist world is Germany with Co-determination.

Sounds interesting, what exactly is Co-determination?

[scarletghoul]

I thought you said you were a Stalinist? :confused:
he picked scandinavia because it is cold and bleak. this is the stalinist ideal.

[Nox]

I thought you said you were a Stalinist? :confused:

Why would that stop me from thinking that Scandinavia is better for the proletariat than most other places in the world?

[danyboy27]

Revolutionary spain and kronstad.

[Maslo]

Scandinavia of course. High economic freedom + good welfare system is a great combination, best of both worlds.
You dont have to worry about becoming ugly poor like in pure capitalism, but you can still become ugly rich. :D

[Zukunftsmusik]

I'd have to say revolutionary spain as well, before people start pointing out that they killed priests and so on, I'm talking about the structures of the economy and the governance.

What's so bad about killing priests? :lol:

[Bostana]

Cuba.

Their are the true figure of a Communist Country.

[Tim Cornelis]

Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and the Netherlands. :cool: (Ranked in order)

Holy shit, I am living in a socialistic country? None of those countries closely resemble socialism, they are social CAPITALIST. They are capitalism + welfare state + social security. They are miles away from socialism!

[Tim Cornelis]

Sounds interesting, what exactly is Co-determination?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council

It basically comes down to "give them reform, or they'll give us revolution", co-option.

[DarkPast]

Anarchist Catalonia, Makhno's Free Territory, the Paris Commune. And I'm not even an Anarchist.

I'm not an anarchist either, but I'm inclined to agree with this.

I'll also add: the first several months or so of the USSR. You know, when "all power to the soviets" actually meant something.

[ColonelCossack]

Cuba.

[Tim Cornelis]

The social structure of the EZLN and its libertarian nature (no killing of dissidents, unlike Revolutionary Spain) + economic structure of Anarchist Aragon (communism), though it was rather rural so hardly applicable to a modern industrial society.

[Tifosi]

Antarctica. No nations, no borders ftw:cool:

[L.A.P.]

Cuba.:cubaflag::castro::che:

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

USSR (1922-1953) and Albania (1941-1985).

[Welshy]

Anarchist Catalonia, Zapatista controlled areas of the Chiapas, Russia during the revolution and before the civil war, and Paris Commune. None of these are exactly what I want, nor did they last long (besides the Zapatistas which still exist), but closer than anything else that has existed to my knowledge.

[Smyg]

Anarchist Catalonia, if you don't count the 'primitive communism' of the hunter-gatherers.

[Armand Iskra]

Well...
Yugoslavia, North Korea, Albania, USSR (pre-stalin to pre-nikita), Cuba, China (Mao era) and Democratic Kampuchea (minus the killing fields, but where PEOPLE POWER really IS.)

But personally, Cuba needs to become like Albania if wants to defend from the US. As well as to be self-reliant as possible (accelerating labor power a la great leap forward).

[Sam_b]

Nobody has mentioned post-1917 Russia. Seriously?

[Red Rabbit]

The USSR (Lenin era), Cuba (Castro era) and the whole of Scandinavia (Both modern and tribal eras).

While all are a bit far off from my actual political vision, I believe they do come the closest.

[Smyg]

... Scandinavia?

:cursing:

[La Comédie Noire]

Paris Commune
February revolution
Anarchist Spain
May 68

Lot's of good stuff, some bad, most ended in tragedy or were flashes in the pan.

-sigh-

[Yugo45]

Yugoslavia most deffinetly.

You maybe don't like it because it didn't crawl up Soviet ass, or because it managed not to piss off Americans on purpose, but the fact still remains that it was closer to socialism then any other country (the ones that lasted for 2 years and those that weren't even countries don't count).

[Rafiq]

I dislike these kinds of discussions. What is a "Political Vision"? We aren't dreamers.

If you mean a country on the verge of setting the clock for international revolution and a Proletarian dictatorship than I would say Russia in the 20's. Sure, people talk about Anarchist Spain or Free territory, sure I support their armies, but I am sure as hell not calling for us to reconstruct those.

And really I'm getting sick of all the Cuba bullshit. It's either Cuba or some Worker cooperative rainbow sunshine romanticized society? Come on, we can do better.

This isn't about which country was more socialist than the other. It is about which state served the best class interest of the proletarian as a revolutionary force. Not, "This society was more communisticaly pure than the other".

Those societies (Free Territory, Catalonia, Paris Commune) were doomed from start. Now Russia 1918-though the twenties... Now there was some potential for international revolution!

[Mettalian]

Cuba, Anarchist Catalonia, Paris Commune, Yugoslavia, and to a very definite degree the USSR (man, Lenin's beard is cool). None of them achieve my hopeful, naive, ideal of socialism, but they all had/have something to offer on how we can view the struggle and how the material conditions of a country pre-revolution can affect how a DotP or anarchy may look.

[tir1944]

Socialist People's Republic of Albania

[RGacky3]

Those societies (Free Territory, Catalonia, Paris Commune) were doomed from start.

Why?


Now Russia 1918-though the twenties... Now there was some potential for international revolution!

Sure, in the begining, but post civil war you just had a dictatorial state Capitalist, stop down system that wasn't a workers democracy at all.


And really I'm getting sick of all the Cuba bullshit. It's either Cuba or some Worker cooperative rainbow sunshine romanticized society? Come on, we can do better.


Much better than Gulags, firing squads and suppression of all dissent, and a one party top down state, yeah.

Also worker cooperatives are a romanticized notion, they exist, and there are many of them.


Sure, people talk about Anarchist Spain or Free territory, sure I support their armies, but I am sure as hell not calling for us to reconstruct those.


Well Lenin and Stalin did'nt infact they fought against them.


It is about which state served the best class interest of the proletarian as a revolutionary force. Not, "This society was more communisticaly pure than the other".

Its about which society was closest to a workers democracy, which neccessarily serves the best interests of the workers (since they are the ones making decisions).

Hell you could argue that Julius ceaser served the interests of the proletariates of his time, does'nt make him a good model.

[Rafiq]

Hell you could argue that Julius ceaser served the interests of the proletariates of his time, does'nt make him a good model.

Yes, it actually does.

[OHumanista]

USSR(Lenin era only), Paris Commune, Revolutionary Spain. Those are probably the closest, far from perfect but with lots of potential.

If we say modern world only then Scandinavia ONLY because it is better than average capitalism...I have no ilusions that it is socialism or anything, and as such it is still FAR from the ideal. :)

[Proukunin]

Spain during the civil war.

[Bud Struggle]

http://z.hubpages.com/u/306459_f496.jpg

[CommieTroll]

Cuba, Albania, or Amsterdam (for the legal weed):laugh:

[RGacky3]

If we say modern world only then Scandinavia ONLY because it is better than average capitalism...I have no ilusions that it is socialism or anything, and as such it is still FAR from the ideal. http://www.revleft.com/vb/which-country-has-t160581/revleft/smilies/001_smile.gif

Scandanavia is NOT one system, the countries have different economic models.


Yes, it actually does.

No it does'nt, but maybe for you since your into dictators.

[Sinred]

Cuba and Venezuela

[RightWinger]

Singapore, UAE

[RexCactus]

Sweden, not just because I think the Social Democratic model has been more successful than the premature revolutions in much of the "Marxist World," but because Basshunter is my Jesus.

[bcbm]

sparta

[Smyg]

Sweden, not just because I think the Social Democratic model has been more successful than the premature revolutions in much of the "Marxist World," but because Basshunter is my Jesus.

We're not social democratic.

[Spets]

Venezuela for me, because of the numerous social programs that Chavez has made, which have worked surprisingly well.

[Collectorgeneral]

I'm not sure yet but it's most certainly not my Estonia.

[Tifosi]

Singapore, UAE

Do you want an army of Indian and Bangladeshi migrant workers? Then the UAE is perfect for you!

Keep their passports to stop them traveling or getting a new job!

Pay them dirty, and get away with it 'cause they ain't citizens!

Get away with arresting thousands of them if they strike about wages when building your new skyscraper!

Lie through your teeth about everything and get away with it 'cause there is no elections at all!

Place your workers in so much debts about travel costs and living cost that they can't afford to every leave you!

UAE. A slave owners paradise!

[Pretty Flaco]

probably somalia

[RexCactus]

We're not social democratic.

No, but you use more Social Democratic policies than virtually any other nation.

[bietan jarrai]

Cuba post-1959, Venezuela post-1999, Chile 1970-73, USSR, Portugal 1974-1975 (during the "Ongoing Revolutionary Process"), Asturian Commune, pre-war Spain in 1936, present-day Marinaleda village (Andalucia, Spain)

(in no particular order)

[Rusty Shackleford]

Cuba. very honest in their internal political dealings.
Soviet Union for the most part.
As for other socialist societies, I really need to study their histories so I would be able to make a coherent personal opinion on them.

Of course, socialism is always in construction in a socialist society. There are no ready-made answers on how to solve problems and that can lead to some serious misjudgments. But, that is the process. And every past socialist society is a building block for the next. A place to learn from certain situations that face all socialist societies and with the ability to look back on it, we can learn to correct it by applying the lessons to current circumstance.

The Paris Commune wasn't perfect, but the mistakes that were made then were learned from and then applied in the next great attempt to establish workers' power.


Oh, and sans-culotte controlled Committee of Public Safety & the 1793 National Convention. Ah, sa ira!

[Revolution starts with U]

Singapore?
It's funny how fast righties abandon freedom when tyranny can protect private property... wait, it's not funny at all. It's disgusting.

[Bronco]

I'm gonna be boring and say Revolutionary Catalonia as well, although I liked what the Diggers did in 17th century England

[EvilRedGuy]

Hell.


Or Communist Mars.

[Rafiq]

No it does'nt, but maybe for you since your into dictators.

If you knew the first thing about Caesar, you would know that he made the Roman empire more democratic than it ever was.

[The Man]

Socialist Albania and the Pre-53 USSR...

[Nox]

Singapore, UAE

You're forgetting Somalia

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The Culture (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheCulture) - A Few Notes On The Culture (http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm)
"You might call them soft, because they're very reluctant to kill, and they might agree with you, but they're soft the way the ocean is soft, and, well; ask any sea captain how harmless and puny the ocean can be."

That's the closest fairly well-known fictional example, otherwise my ideal society has yet to exist.

[Sir Comradical]

East Germany, 1970 - 1980.

Not political vision, but living standards yes.

[Bud Struggle]

You're forgetting Somalia

That's definitely where I'd go if I wanted to live in an Anarchist place.

[Smyg]

Which would have been great, if Somalia was anarchist.

[Rafiq]

Somalia is Libertarian.

[Kosakk]

I'd say revolutionary Spain.
Maybe Switzerland too, but only for their direct-democracy.

[maskerade]

If I had to choose a movement, it would probably be the revolutionary fever that dominated postcolonial Africa, especially Mozambique. No longer being bound by the shackles of colonial masters, they must've felt like the future was going to be of their own making. Cooperative farming, dismantling of oppressive structures ('traditional' as well as colonial), being legally allowed to dance the dances they had been forbidden from performing for centuries. Aaahhh, and of course, the beaches, the food, and the friendly people.

Too bad the revolutionaries were assassinated, the World Bank showed up, and the former colonial masters regained control through the guise of globalization and development.

EDIT: not to mention the Civil War sponsored by the racist regimes of Rhodesia and Apartheid South Africa, still responsible for massive minefields in the north of the country.

[Sir Comradical]

I'd say revolutionary Spain.
Maybe Switzerland too, but only for their direct-democracy.

The money launderer for every third-world plutocrat, for plutocrats in general.