What stereotype about people of your faith annoys you most?

[Islamosocialist]

I'm Muslim, Slavic, and Southeastern European. Each of these groups on its own is stereotyped as one among whom women have few rights, are weak and submissive to their husbands.

Combine them and I never hear the end of it. I truly hate these stereotypes and, the worst part is that there is no winning way to fight them.

For example, many people assume Muslim women are covered in black cloth and oppressed. Not at all. Here are some random pictures from the streets of Sarajevo just this month:

http://i53.tinypic.com/167w6ef.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/167w6ef.jpg

http://i51.tinypic.com/hvrtr9.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/hvrtr9.jpg

http://i51.tinypic.com/68r6fr.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/68r6fr.jpg

http://i51.tinypic.com/2hh2luf.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/2hh2luf.jpg

Sure, there's more longer skirts and flowing fabrics than would probably be common in the West, but it's certainly not Riyadh either.

The problem in combating the stereotype that we all wear burqhas is that it creates a new stereotype.

Yes, we're expected to always look nice when we're out in public--a girl with messy hair and masculine clothes stands out as much as a bikini-clad girl would in Saudi Arabia. But it's done by us, not to us.

To us, it's not... subservience to the expectations of men. It's basic self respect.

For example, showing up to class at American universities wearing pyjamas and easy clothes. There, it's normal. In the Balkans, it is not only an unforgivable sign of disrespect toward the professor, it is an expression of a lack of respect for oneself as well.

How you present yourself to the world lets the world know how much you value yourself.

Of course, we have many problems--domestic violence is as common in the Balkans and it is throughout southern Europe, from Portugal to Greece. Pay inequality is a problem. Women are underrepresented in certain fields (though not the same ones as in the west. Doctors, for example, are far more likely to be female than male in Bosnia. We used to have the highest percentage of female doctors per capita in the world in the world).

But we have generous maternity leave, great community support for women's needs such as childcare, and a great sense of common purpose. We have strong minds because we were enforced as equals during the socialist era. We're not a people who don't know better.

So it's more complex than the stereotypes people use to dismiss us.

So those are the ones that annoy me most.

What about you?

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

I would definitely say that I'm either a convenience store employee, I sell street food, drive a cab (which I do now, sadly) or that I'm going to blow myself up at any given moment. Or that I beat and degrade the women in my life, I'm savage, uncouth, uncivilized, uncultured, worship Satan or will behead you if you touch my sisters.

I especially do not like the "oh, it's X o'clock, time to pray," joke.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Please tell me you didn't take these pictures of random girls on the streets.

[Islamosocialist]

No, no. We have dozens of websites that do that. These particular ones are from Infobar.ba.

[Die Rote Fahne]

That we are a faith.

[Revolution starts with U]

That we have faith in atheism like theists have faith in God.

[NGNM85]

As an Atheist, I have no 'faith', as such. However, I'm continually vexed by this bogus meme of 'Militant Atheism', which, in practical terms, amounts to any Atheist who is not reticent to acknowledge their Atheism publicly, and defer to Theists at every turn.

[Islamosocialist]

You all remind me of that expression, "Atheism is a religion like bald is a hairstyle.", ha!

[Dumb]

As a Reform Jew, it never ceases to amaze me how many Christians think Judaism is basically just Christianity without the Christ yet. I'm not waiting for somebody to offer spiritual deliverance; I seek emancipation within this material world - and, as a Reform Jew, I reject the notion of an individual messiah in favor of a "messianic generation" that will collectively bring about emancipation.

[Islamosocialist]

As a Reform Jew, it never ceases to amaze me how many Christians think Judaism is basically just Christianity without the Christ yet. I'm not waiting for somebody to offer spiritual deliverance; I seek emancipation within this material world - and, as a Reform Jew, I reject the notion of an individual messiah in favor of a "messianic generation" that will collectively bring about emancipation.

You remind me of another one: that we all hate Jews.

I probably know more about Jewish history in the Balkans than you could learn at Yad Vashem. And I am so proud of it. It's a part of my own.

They did a poll of Sarajevans, who are 80%+ Muslim, and asked what is our most important symbol of the city. And the overwhelming choice was the Haggadah. Things like that make me happy, not angry.

Not to imply I support Israeli policies regarding the Palestinians, because I am passionately opposed to just about everything Israel does in that regard.

But, that has nothing to do with "Jews".

[Islamosocialist]

By the way, Dumb, I responded to your PM--twice! But I don't think it went. Let me know if it didn't!

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Yes, we're expected to always look nice when we're out in public--a girl with messy hair and masculine clothes stands out as much as a bikini-clad girl would in Saudi Arabia. But it's done by us, not to us.

Burqini > bikini. :lol:

[Islamosocialist]

Oh, I love the burkini, Dzerz!

I believe I am justified in not veiling--I think it's a cultural, not religious, requirement.

But even I feel guilty at the beach, in a bikini... come on? So I tied a wet veil around my neck, or wear a sundress, etc. It's odd. And the Croatians are already annoyed with us ("Cheap Bosnians, taking up all the space on the beach. They are no economic benefit to Croatia! They come on vacation and even bring their own toilet paper!").

So, I LOVE the burkini. I don't have one yet, but I want!

I did buy Iranian fashion, ha! I love it too.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Oh, I love the burkini, Dzerz!

It's among the most novel things I've seen.



I believe I am justified in not veiling--I think it's a cultural, not religious, requirement.

But even I feel guilty at the beach, in a bikini... come on? So I tied a wet veil around my neck, or wear a sundress, etc. It's odd. And the Croatians are already annoyed with us ("Cheap Bosnians, taking up all the space on the beach. They are no economic benefit to Croatia! They come on vacation and even bring their own toilet paper!").


I dig said reasoning.



So, I LOVE the burkini. I don't have one yet, but I want!


I hear they're expensive.


I did buy Iranian fashion, ha! I love it too.

Iranians are some posh fucks.

[Islamosocialist]

Oh, urban Iran is crazy fashionable. I love almost everything--except the very conservative.

http://i51.tinypic.com/5bzbsn.jpg

[Islamosocialist]

Another stereotype...

That all Muslim women sound like hyenas. Muslims come from every possible background, speaking every possible language. South Slavic Muslims (speaking primarily Bosnian dialect but also Croatian, Serbian, Macedonian--even some Slovenian) have especially deep voices on average. Ukrainians even joke that Balkan women sound like their men.

An example, a Muslim, female singer from northern Bosnia, right on the border with Croatia:

vayeQ-ZhrGU

[mllanders]

I think there is a fine line between using women's bodies -- women's dress -- to combat a stereotype and using women's bodies to support a stereotype while simultaneously setting one's self apart from it. Honestly I think your post falls to the side of the latter. ("Look at how Western our women look. Not at all like the black-clad oppressed masses.")

[ComradeMan]

Although I agree in part, at the same time- the experience of women is Bosnia is not exactly the same as the experience of women in Saudi Arabia, Iran or Afghanistan.

[mllanders]

No one said it is. Quite the opposite -- the experience of women in Bosnia is also not like other women in Bosnia, the experience of women in SA is not like other women in SA, etc ... class, status, family, choice, national origin, blah blah blah. It's complicated, everywhere. And getting across that it's complicated is not helped by reducing women's standing to a quick assessment based largely on fashion, and by continuing support for the idea that somehow the adoption of denim (or whatever) into a society is a clear upward notch on the scale of personal freedom.

The stereotype that Muslim women are "walking shadows in shrouds" may be alleviated by depictions of Muslims who take their fashion cues more from the pages of Vogue, but the false dichotomy of the good (Westernized) Muslim versus the bad (Traditional) Muslim is often built on the same, as is the all too often forwarded impression that a woman's autonomy or even her full humanity may be read by her clothes -- not the laws surrounding her clothes, not the cultural imperatives, but the clothes themselves, the snapshots on the street.

[Islamosocialist]

Oh, I agree, Mllanders. That's why I say... we can't win. How can I combat one of those stereotypes without supporting the other?

And we do have many conservatives, most of whom do more or less like this:

http://i51.tinypic.com/uwjko.jpg

I'd estimate they account for perhaps 5% in urban areas and maybe 20% in rural areas (but that's deceiving because, in rural areas, where they exist at all, they're usually a majority in that area. So, depending on where you are, it could seem everyone is strictly veiled).

There are a handful who cover everything but their eyes, but they're usually the local wives of foreign men.

So we have all of that too.

[Commissar Rykov]

Is this is about fashion or religion? Or that Fashion is a kind of Religion to certain vapid individuals? So confused.

[Islamosocialist]

Just because you don't share a particular interest doesn't make it vapid, Rykov.

And this thread is about identifying which stereotypes about your faith annoy you most.

[Commissar Rykov]

Just because you don't share a particular interest doesn't make it vapid, Rykov.

And this thread is about identifying which stereotypes about your faith annoy you most.
Fashion is extremely vapid, bourgeois, and consumerist but that is beside the point.

Nothing really bothers me about the stereotypes other than some fellow Leftists think I need to lobotomize or Chemotherapy my mind. I dismiss it as hardliners though just trying to make a point. Otherwise I really don't care what others think of my faith.

[Islamosocialist]

Fashion is extremely vapid, bourgeois, and consumerist but that is beside the point.

Nothing really bothers me about the stereotypes other than some fellow Leftists think I need to lobotomize or Chemotherapy my mind. I dismiss it as hardliners though just trying to make a point. Otherwise I really don't care what others think of my faith.

I disagree completely. The intelligent, poor and made-it-myself people need fashion too. ;) Unless you are naked, it matters.

[Commissar Rykov]

I disagree completely. The intelligent, poor and made-it-myself people need fashion too. ;) Unless you are naked, it matters.
No they need clothes, housing, food and employment not fucking petit-bourgeois and bourgeois fashion designers saying what stupid half-assed impractical design is in this season. Fashion is shit and does nothing for the Working Class.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

And we do have many conservatives, most of whom do more or less like this:

http://i51.tinypic.com/uwjko.jpg


:lol:

That's conservative? That's just your standard hijabi really.

[Islamosocialist]

Dzerko, hahaha! Be nice.

Yes, that's conservative. We have some that cover more, but they're a tiny minority--almost exclusively the local wives of foreign immigrants.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Dzerko, hahaha! Be nice.

I'm trying to be sis, it's just weird to me given where I'm coming from.


Yes, that's conservative. We have some that cover more, but they're a tiny minority--almost exclusively the local wives of foreign immigrants.

That just blows my mind, really.

[Zealot]

Those women are damn fine.

But on topic, I hardly think it's a "stereotype" that a lot of muslim women wear burkas. I've lived in several middle eastern countries where burkas were the norm and seemed to be popular with Indian muslims living there too, however, when I went to Malaysia they wore simple hijab which doesn't bother me at all. A burka is a little over the top though, but I'm not going to force my opinions on other people

[Agent Ducky]

Yes, we're expected to always look nice when we're out in public--a girl with messy hair and masculine clothes stands out as much as a bikini-clad girl would in Saudi Arabia.

I'd be fucked then. :lol:
All the other atheist people have said what I was gonna say. What I find interesting is that a lot of people (non-communists) seem to think that one can't be communist and religious at the same time....

[Nox]

As an ex-Orthodox (Haredi) Jew, I have to say the worst stereotype that I've heard is that we're all crazy.

[RGacky3]

No they need clothes, housing, food and employment not fucking petit-bourgeois and bourgeois fashion designers saying what stupid half-assed impractical design is in this season. Fashion is shit and does nothing for the Working Class.

Fashion as a concept is way way way way older than the Fashion industry, and really came about the same time clothes came about.

[Red Rabbit]

Being a Germanic Neo-Pagan, I guess the stereotype that annoys me most is that we're all racist and white supremacists.

While it is true that quite a few white supremacists are of the same faith as me, that doesn't mean all Heathens (Another word for Germanic Neo-Pagans for those of you who don't know) are racist and hateful.

[LOLseph Stalin]

This has already been mentioned in this thread, it it annoys me too, that we all oppress women. Also, that we want to blow up all non-believers.

[Smyg]

No idea, since I have no clue what my faith is.