what is petit bourgeoise?

[nothing but left]

Can someone explain it to me? I know it's a tricky question, but some kind of definition would be helfpul.

[a rebel]

petit bourgeoisie are people who own their own means of production, usually small business owners of some kind.

[nothing but left]

are state workers, lawyers, military workers, police officers and other employees who support the system petty bourgeois too? what about workers for international organizations?

[electro_fan]

if you own the means of production but are still dependent on your labour to survive. or if you also get money some other way, such as being a landlord or having shares in something. but you're not bourgeois, you still have to work (or are dependent on someone else's income). my mum is a landlady but she still has to work. it's very slippery though, because someone could sell their house and partially live off the capital from that while they rented, and does that mean that they've become petty bourgeois if they're still working at the same time?

honestly, unless your family own a huge yacht or something then don't worry.

[electro_fan]

i'd also add that the petty bourgeoisie as it has existed since 1945 is, in my opinion, over now. some people in the pb have done well out of the economic conditions (for example buying cheap houses during the housing boom) and have probably become bourgeois now. others have become proletarianised, or dropped down even further than that (for example, i know a man who can't work due to MS, despite having huge amounts of land and even buying a helicopter at one point due to working the stock market and having a successful business). he has almost no money and is in masses of debt and can hardly afford to live from day to day.

for others they have joined the ranks of the bourgeoisie and got rich off the suffering of their own cformer class and the working class. i will not live a pb lifestyle, i will never live the same lifestyle my parents had. not that i want to, particularly, as it didnt bring them much happiness, but i dont have that choice even if i wanted to. nor do a lot of others. its either up or down from this point for most of the pb/middle class I think.

[ВАЛТЕР]

My father in the Former Yugoslavia owned a small fur store, the family made good money but he worked by himself in the store and earned off of his own labor entirely. Would he have been PB?
In the time of Tito you were allowed to own private property however exploitation was forbidden and the worker had many rights and could not be even fired without very good reason.

[electro_fan]

yes he would have been. pb doesn't necessarily mean rich.

[ВАЛТЕР]

yes he would have been. pb doesn't necessarily mean rich.

Id like to add that it wasn't a fur "store" but more of a fur tailor shop where he made coats/hats/etc. for people.

Either way we are now poor and in debt over our heads. Only reason me and him are in the US is to send money back to my mother and brothers in Serbia. Times are hard...

[electro_fan]

are state workers, lawyers, military workers, police officers and other employees who support the system petty bourgeois too? what about workers for international organizations?


no. is a nurse pb? is a teacher? no, they are working class, because they are dependent on a wage.

the army is working class (apart from the officers - at least in the UK, no idea what it's like there - who are usually bourgeois).

the police are - technically - working class in terms of them being dependent on a wage, however their role is to say the least, problematic. while it would be important to win the police over in a revolutionary situation, and attacks on their pay and conditions should be resisted the same as any other worker, a lot of them are, simply, pricks, and so the question of the police is quite complicated :D

as for workers for international organisations, i'd say they were usually working class, although it depends what they did. if they were the chief executives or something then i'd say no. don't forget that it's not about income, or whether you're a nice person, it's about your relationship to the means of production.

[electro_fan]

Id like to add that it wasn't a fur "store" but more of a fur tailor shop where he made coats/hats/etc. for people.

Either way we are now poor and in debt over our heads. Only reason me and him are in the US is to send money back to my mother and brothers in Serbia. Times are hard...
I'm sorry to hear that mate :( really sucks.

[electro_fan]

Id like to add that it wasn't a fur "store" but more of a fur tailor shop where he made coats/hats/etc. for people.

Either way we are now poor and in debt over our heads. Only reason me and him are in the US is to send money back to my mother and brothers in Serbia. Times are hard...
Dont say that on the meat thread, some of the people posting on it will go beserk :D

[ВАЛТЕР]

Dont say that on the meat thread, some of the people posting on it will go beserk :D

LOL We would see how quickly they'd drop that if they had to spend a winter in Sarajevo (my city of origin) :laugh:

[Le Rouge]

By the way, we say the Petite Bourgeoisie .
And when we speak of someone (a male) we say : he is a petit bourgeois.

Source : My mother language is french :)

Le Rouge

[nothing but left]

no. is a nurse pb? is a teacher? no, they are working class, because they are dependent on a wage.

the army is working class (apart from the officers - at least in the UK, no idea what it's like there - who are usually bourgeois).

the police are - technically - working class in terms of them being dependent on a wage, however their role is to say the least, problematic. while it would be important to win the police over in a revolutionary situation, and attacks on their pay and conditions should be resisted the same as any other worker, a lot of them are, simply, pricks, and so the question of the police is quite complicated :D

as for workers for international organisations, i'd say they were usually working class, although it depends what they did. if they were the chief executives or something then i'd say no. don't forget that it's not about income, or whether you're a nice person, it's about your relationship to the means of production.

yeah, i agree with you. hm, not sure, my grandfather was an economic advisor for the UN, and a university professor. I think he wasn't in a position to fire anyone (while working for UN).

[electro_fan]

he was your grandfather. there's no point worrying about it. distant relations of mine include bourgeoisie and even members of the aristocracy if you go far back enough through my family tree. he was probably a good person and you should not worry over what his class status is.

its about NOW and what YOU are doing NOW. you seem very sincere. you should not worry over whether how your family earnt their money is going to lead you to "sell out" and such like. It's not down to them or relatives which you have no control over being related to, it's about what you do today and your present actions.

the left isn't scumfront, you don't need to worry about whether your "blood" is "pure" enough. if anyone tells you that's the point of it they're completely missing the point.

[nothing but left]

I'm sorry to hear that mate :( really sucks.

Me too. :( I hope you will earn some money in US.

[electro_fan]

i'm in the uk actually, but thanks.

[thefinalmarch]

Either way we are now poor and in debt over our heads. Only reason me and him are in the US is to send money back to my mother and brothers in Serbia. Times are hard...
I have family in Serbia, too (and the Ukraine, which isn't much better off). Living conditions are apparently awful, and my uncle is officially broke - unable to provide for his wife and their 3- and 10-year old children. We used to send them money from here in Australia but lately we haven't been able to on account of the fact that my family is steadily losing money and soon our ability to pay rent will be endangered. Rent is going up and up whilst my family's real wages are falling.