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KurtFF8
27th August 2011, 21:33
Source (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/rebels-settle-scores-in-libyan-capital-2344671.html)


Rebels settle scores in Libyan capital

UN urges restraint as the rebels wreak their revenge on 'loyalists'
By Kim Sengupta in Tripoli

Saturday, 27 August 2011

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/dynamic/00640/4-Libya-main_640562t.jpg (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/rebels-settle-scores-in-libyan-capital-2344671.html?action=Gallery)
Reuters
The Libyan rebels have been meting out brutal treatment to sub-Saharan Africans in Tripoli, suspecting that they are Gaddafi loyalists



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The killings were pitiless.
They had taken place at a makeshift hospital, in a tent marked clearly with the symbols of the Islamic Crescent. Some of the dead were on stretchers, attached to intravenous drips. Some were on the back of an ambulance that had been shot at. A few were on the ground, seemingly attempting to crawl to safety when the bullets came.
Around 30 men lay decomposing in the heat. Many of them had their hands tied behind their back, either with plastic handcuffs or ropes. One had a scarf stuffed into his mouth. Almost all of the victims were black men. Their bodies had been dumped near the scene of two of the fierce battles between rebel and regime forces in Tripoli.


"Come and see. These are blacks, Africans, hired by Gaddafi, mercenaries," shouted Ahmed Bin Sabri, lifting the tent flap to show the body of one dead patient, his grey T-shirt stained dark red with blood, the saline pipe running into his arm black with flies. Why had an injured man receiving treatment been executed? Mr Sabri, more a camp follower than a fighter, shrugged. It was seemingly incomprehensible to him that anything wrong had been done.
The corpses were on the grass verges of two large roundabouts between Bab al-Aziziyah, Muammar Gaddafi's compound stormed by the revolutionaries at the weekend and Abu Salim, a loyalist district which saw three days of ferocious violence.
The United Nations issued an urgent call for restraint by both sides in the bloody and bitter endgame to the civil war yesterday. But the thirst for vengeance has been difficult to control, to which the morgues, hospitals and the urban killings fields of the Libyan capital bore testimony.
The dire warning in Col Gaddafi's latest broadcast that the population of Tripoli would be persecuted by the revolutionaries and women would be raped in their homes is unsubstantiated, as are similar claims by his official apologist, Moussa Ibrahim.
It is also the case that the regime has repeatedly unleashed appalling violence on its own people. But the mounting number of deaths of men from sub-Saharan Africa at the hands of the rebels – lynchings in many cases – raises disturbing questions about the opposition administration, the Transitional National Council (TNC) taking over as Libya's government, and about Western backing for it.
The atrocities have apparently not been confined to Tripoli: Amnesty International has reported similar violence in the coastal town of Zawiyah, much of it against men from sub-Saharan Africa who, it has been claimed, were migrant workers.
The Independent understands that the suspected atrocities by rebel fighters have been raised with members of the TNC in recent days by British officials, who made clear their "concern" at the reports coming out of Tripoli and the expectation in London that anyone suspected of war crimes will face trial. The Foreign Office underlined that the apparent executions of pro-Gaddafi soldiers were as yet unverified.
A spokesman said: "We are aware of reports, but have no means of verifying them. We condemn all human rights abuses. The TNC leadership has made clear the need to avoid violence and reprisals and has repeatedly said that anyone found guilty of crimes will be held to account. We have emphasised the importance of this in our conversations with them. This is in stark contrast to Gaddafi, who continues to launch indiscriminate and violent attacks on the Libyan people."
But, for some on the ground in Tripoli, a different view has taken hold. Since the start of the uprising last February the opposition has tried to portray the conflict as waged by patriotic Libyans against the dictator's foreign hired guns. A few of the tales took fanciful turns, such as that about the crack team of female snipers, either Serbian or Colombian, depending on the version. But it was black males, very often migrant workers, who paid the lethal price after being accused of being mercenaries.
Only a few of the dead found at the roundabouts yesterday were in uniform. However, regime forces have often worn civilian clothes during combat in Tripoli. The street-fighting for Abu Salim was particularly fierce with regime snipers taking a steady toll among the ranks of al-Shabaab volunteer fighters. The losses, and frustration at the continuing stubborn resistance by the enemy after an entry into the capital greeted with celebration by residents, has led to something approaching fury among some of the revolutionaries in the last few days.
"They were shooting at us and that is the reason they were killed," said Mushab Abdullah, a 35-year-old rebel fighter from Misrata, pointing at the bodies. "It had been really tough at Abu Salim, because these mercenaries know that, without Gaddafi to protect them, they are in big trouble. That is why they were fighting so hard."
His companion, Mohammed Tariq Muthar, counted them off on the fingers of his hand: "We have found mercenaries from Chad, Niger, Mali and Ghana, all with guns. And they took action against us."
But, if the men had been killed in action, why did they have their hands tied behind their back? "Maybe they were injured, and they had to be brought to this hospital and the handcuffs were to stop them from attacking. And then something went wrong," suggested Mr Abdullah.
Ethnic Libyan "collaborators", too, have been the subject of the punitive attention of the revolutionaries. The prison at Abu Salim, a place of fear where 1,200 prisoners were slaughtered by the regime in 1996, had its doors flung open by the revolutionaries on Thursday, letting 4,000 inmates free. Now there is talk of using the complex for captured Gaddafi troops.
Meanwhile, Ahmed Safar Warfalla was being held in a temporary "cell", a locked room at a school in the suburb of Tajoura. Mr Warfalla has been accused of spreading Gaddafi propaganda. Three Chadian "mercenaries" kept at the same place had already been transferred to jail and the local militia was considering what to do with him.
"They accuse me of a crime, but this is what I did," said Mr Warfalla taking out a copy of the Koran from his pocket and pointing it to the sky. "Allah and Libya," he shouted. "They have Nato technology? This is Arab, Muslim technology. We shall not be defeated."
After a brief consultation, the militia decided to let Mr Warfalla go. "What is the point of keeping him; the man is mad!" said Adussalem Mohammed Ashur. "If it was me and I was a prisoner of Gaddafi then I would not have come out so easily. People have disappeared for saying things."
Amnesty International stated yesterday that it had uncovered evidence that regime forces had killed detainees held at two camps in Tripoli. One of the attacks took place at a military camp in Khilit al-Ferjan where 160 detainees attempted to get away after the guards told them that the gates were unlocked. "As the detainees barged through the hangar gates, two other guards opened fire and threw five hand grenades at the group," said the human rights group in a report. Twenty-three of the prisoners managed to make good their escape and were able to receive treatment at a Tripoli hospital.
Meanwhile, RAF Tornado GR4 warplanes fired Cruise missiles at a bunker in Sirte, Col Gaddafi's hometown which is continuing to stave off rebel attacks. Ahmed Bani, a military spokesman for the TNC, said "Maybe this will help. Maybe the mercenaries there will run away. This will allow the local people to rise up and we can bring this to a conclusion."




This article with the phrases like "hopefully a new step towards resistance towards capitalism can come with the fall of Gaddafi" in my head make me think that those who are optimistic about these developments need to perhaps hold off a little bit on that.

khad
27th August 2011, 21:39
Those 30 weren't mercenaries. Like most people killed by the Libyan mujahideen, they were just ordinary workers--just like those guys being detained in that photo.

brigadista
27th August 2011, 21:47
just like in Benghazi

RedSquare
27th August 2011, 21:49
This has been confirmed on a few liberal mailing lists I'm on as well, most notably from Amnesty International and Human Right's Watch. At the moment torture is widespread in the captured areas.

#FF0000
27th August 2011, 21:51
oh those noble rebels

khad
27th August 2011, 23:23
The title of this thread is misleading.

"Settling scores" implies that there was some apparent wrong that needed settling.

In most of these cases, it's just the Libyan mujahideen finding any excuse to kill and torture black people.

Bronco
27th August 2011, 23:32
The title of this thread is misleading.

"Settling scores" implies that there was some apparent wrong that needed settling.

In most of these cases, it's just the Libyan mujahideen finding any excuse to kill and torture black people.

Yeah I didn't like that headline the Independent used, clearly an attempt to justify atrocities. I'm one of the more sympathetic people to the Rebels on this forum but this does concern me immensely, even Amnesty have said there is no evidence that Gaddafi used mercenaries in the first place which makes it very worrying that the Western media have pedalled such a line repeatedly without question.

ВАЛТЕР
28th August 2011, 00:00
The rebels are savages, I support Gaddafi over them and their capitalist imperialistic puppet masters.

Sinister Cultural Marxist
28th August 2011, 00:03
Yeah I didn't like that headline the Independent used, clearly an attempt to justify atrocities. I'm one of the more sympathetic people to the Rebels on this forum but this does concern me immensely, even Amnesty have said there is no evidence that Gaddafi used mercenaries in the first place which makes it very worrying that the Western media have pedalled such a line repeatedly without question.

There have been reports actually that Gaddafi's state was forcefully conscripting some migrant workers into his armed forces. This doesn't change anything though, whether a person is conscripted or if they are a mercenary they should be treated with some level of basic human rights. There is also obviously no absolute way to distinguish between a mercenary and a regular civilian without an objective tribunal on the issue.


The rebels are savages, I support Gaddafi over them and their capitalist imperialistic puppet masters.

I see, so the guy who does mass executions on all his prisoners on the last day of his rule (as the article says) and whose soldiers use rape as a weapon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_al-Obeidi)isn't savage himself? The guy who apparently was living in an opulent castle while his country starved? Obviously everyone should be skeptical of the rebels but that doesn't mean you should support a murderous tyrant.

ВАЛТЕР
28th August 2011, 00:31
I see, so the guy who does mass executions on all his prisoners on the last day of his rule (as the article says) and whose soldiers use rape as a weapon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_al-Obeidi)isn't savage himself? The guy who apparently was living in an opulent castle while his country starved? Obviously everyone should be skeptical of the rebels but that doesn't mean you should support a murderous tyrant.

Yes, the rebels are savages. They are murdering blacks, they are killing innocent civilians, they are slaughtering children.

These accusations of rape, and bombings are western media lies. Gaddafi took very good care of his people, I spoke with Libyan students in Belgrade who spoke very highly of the regime and said that the rebels were nothing but mercenaries fighting for NATO. The rape allegations are a LIE, as are the talks of the rebels controlling the city. Gaddafi is not perfect but to call him a bad ruler is idiotic, he made Libya into a beautiful country with jobs, education, and free health for all. The students told me that the government paid for their studies abroad and supported them while in Serbia. The rebels are traitor scum, NATO is a blood thirsty monster that needs to be dismantled. This is nothing but a war for Libya's oil.

KurtFF8
28th August 2011, 16:44
The title of this thread is misleading.

"Settling scores" implies that there was some apparent wrong that needed settling.

In most of these cases, it's just the Libyan mujahideen finding any excuse to kill and torture black people.

I just copied and pasted from the article title. It is not my own commentary or opinion.

Kiev Communard
28th August 2011, 16:55
Yes, the rebels are savages. They are murdering blacks, they are killing innocent civilians, they are slaughtering children.

But do not forget that Gaddafi's forces had once murdered Blacks in Chad during their invasion there in the 1980s, and Gaddafi himself has significant racist leanings, as manifested by his derisive comments on Black worker-migrants that passed from Libya to Europe before, and the general treatment of migrants from Sub-Saharan Africa in Libya before the conflict:




A large number of migrants from sub-Saharan Africa work in Libya or pass through in attempts to reach Europe. Human rights organizations have documented and criticized the country’s treatment of these migrants. The regime has been more aggressive in its crackdown on illegal laborers in recent years, increasingly the likelihood of abuses. The Nigerian government alleged that Libya executed dozens of Nigerians in 2009 and intended to execute more than 200 additional Nigerian nationals for simple immigration violations.

http://www.africa.com/libya/report



In addition, the Gaddafite forces had definitely been "killing innocent civilians" and "slaughtering children" during their attacks on pro-rebel population in Benghazi in the beginning of the conflict, so I do not think that the fact that the pro-NATO rebels are indeed savages means that we should white-wash the Gaddafite brutality.

Sasha
28th August 2011, 17:15
Gadaffi loyal forces massacre 150 "rebels", let 180 injured civilians perish in sniper siezed hospital: http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2011/08/28/bodies-of-150-rebels-found-torched-in-warehouse-as-colonel-gaddafi-s-carnage-is-revealed-86908-23378452/

Gaddaffi and sons raped female "elite bodyguards", handed them down to loyal employees, gaddaffi militia raped children:


“She had been expelled from university and was told to seek Gaddafi’s intervention to be reinstated. She was told she had to undergo a medical test that included an HIV test that was administered by an East European nurse.”
Eventually she was taken to meet Col. Gaddafi at his Bab Aziziya compound in Tripoli. She was led to his private quarters where she found him in his pyjamas.
“She could not understand because she saw him as a father figure, leader of the nation, that sort of thing. She refused his advances and he raped her,” Dr Sergewa said.
A pattern emerged in the stories. The women would be first raped by the dictator and then passed on, like used objects, to one of his sons and eventually to high-ranking officials for more abuse before eventually being let go.
The disturbing claims form part of a dossier being collated by Dr Sergewa for the International Criminal Court and possible trials that Col. Gaddafi and members of his inner circle may face in Libya if and when they are captured alive.
However, her work does not stop with the bodyguards. The women only stepped forward after the psychologist started investigating claims of systematic rape, allegedly committed by loyalist troops during the conflict.
It started about a month into the uprising, in March, when Dr Sergewa, a child psychologist by specialisation, was approached by the mothers of three children she was treating with harrowing stories of rape by militiamen.


http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20110828/local/Gaddafi-raped-his-female-bodyguards.382085

maskerade
28th August 2011, 17:32
Gadaffi loyal forces massacre 150 "rebels", let 180 injured civilians perish in sniper siezed hospital: http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2011/08/28/bodies-of-150-rebels-found-torched-in-warehouse-as-colonel-gaddafi-s-carnage-is-revealed-86908-23378452/

Gaddaffi and sons raped female "elite bodyguards", handed them down to loyal employees, gaddaffi militia raped children:



http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20110828/local/Gaddafi-raped-his-female-bodyguards.382085

Good thing Gadaffi is brutal and evil so we can support rebels who are just as bad

#FF0000
28th August 2011, 18:42
Gadaffi loyal forces massacre 150 "rebels", let 180 injured civilians perish in sniper siezed hospital: http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2011/08/28/bodies-of-150-rebels-found-torched-in-warehouse-as-colonel-gaddafi-s-carnage-is-revealed-86908-23378452/

Gaddaffi and sons raped female "elite bodyguards", handed them down to loyal employees, gaddaffi militia raped children:



http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20110828/local/Gaddafi-raped-his-female-bodyguards.382085


okay that is bad

now why is it good when NATO does it

Luc
28th August 2011, 18:57
^It's not

(this part is not to the above) I hate both sides. Gaddaffi for the rape, mass murder (possibly torture) and the Rebels for the mass murders, and possible torture and rape.

Though I'm wondering about people calling the rebels racist as I have seen Black rebels.

in the background there looks like an african male leaning against that large column and he seems fine of course it's hard to see.

Thirsty Crow
28th August 2011, 19:09
Yes, the rebels are savages. They are murdering blacks, they are killing innocent civilians, they are slaughtering children.

How about taking a step back, realizing that you're mimicking the colonialist rhetoric which pits "civilization" against "savages", and while we're at it, you may as well realize that upholding such a stance in this situation - where you're defending (in a bad way; a beautiful country which has been and will be torn apart by youth unemployment, a common characteristic of social formations which have witnessed the so called Arab Spring) a bourgeois head of state who has crippled any possibility of an independent proletarian organizing and actively collaborated with those same regimes which are major imperialist players - is hardly a communist position.
But then again, a lot of stuff passes for communism in this age. Which is not that surprising.

So, what's the point of this thread? Is it meant to compare atrocities and alleged atrocities in a kind of a contest, in which you would preferably count the dead and raped (how many adults would a child be worth in this contest?), hell bent on sticking to your chosen side of the conflict?
If that's so, and it seems that it is (and don't get me wrong, I don't think that contributions such as psycho's are going in any other direction), than frankly, fuck that idiocy.

As far as I'm concerned, it's been a long time since the so called rebels have shown themselves for what they are. I don't think I need to talk about NATO, though I don't doubt that some zealous "anti-imp" or a green Third Positionist masquerading as a communist, will let me know that I'm supporting imperialism since I do not support the previous state regime. You folks can check out the last sentence in the first paragraph if you're interested in what I think about such accusations.

And the same goes for Gaddafi. I don't tend to support nationalist bourgeois political forces.

Also, I can't say I'm surprised that it's been shown that the so called "western" media was heavily involved in the ideological work necessary for the political work which will take place, and decide the structure of the Lybian state. Yes, they exaggerate and they fabricate, but once any kind of reference outside the safe zone, in this context the zone being the official statements of the Gaddafi regime and its political allies, is rendered as invalid as a source, then any kind of political reasoning becomes an impossibility. Yelling "LIES" does not and can not figure as political analysis, as limited as it necessarily is when it comes to users of this forum.

All in all, I deeply regret the ordeal and the suffering Lybians will go through. What I hope for in the immediate future is influence from radical political forces and proletarian organizations in the region, which could maybe lead to working class organizing in the country, affecting the new state formation. Though, I don't doubt the new political ruling class will clearly show their attitude towards working class politics.

#FF0000
28th August 2011, 19:33
^It's not

Great job you got the point.


Though I'm wondering about people calling the rebels racist as I have seen Black rebels.


There's all sorts of rebels but there's a lot of anti-black racists in the NTC, apparently.

piet11111
28th August 2011, 19:43
Both the rebels and Qaddafi are scum but Libya was a lot safer under Qaddafi then under these rebels who seem to want to emulate Afghanistan under Taliban rule.

Will the change in ruleship eventually be worth it ? i don't know the people have a taste of their power they got rid of Qaddafi but i fear they will lose their revolution to the TNC and the imperialists.

thefinalmarch
29th August 2011, 14:13
This article with the phrases like "hopefully a new step towards resistance towards capitalism can come with the fall of Gaddafi" in my head make me think that those who are optimistic about these developments need to perhaps hold off a little bit on that.
Unlike the portrait of the archetypal anti-Gadaffi leftist which you and others paint, I have no delusions about the NTC, or the state of the working class in Libya as I write this. There is an astronomically low chance of working class resistance to the ruling class in post-Gadaffi Libya. Anyone who says the Libyan working class will rise up against the bourgeoisie in the NTC-era is kidding themselves.

KurtFF8
29th August 2011, 15:48
Unlike the portrait of the archetypal anti-Gadaffi leftist which you and others paint, I have no delusions about the NTC, or the state of the working class in Libya as I write this. There is an astronomically low chance of working class resistance to the ruling class in post-Gadaffi Libya. Anyone who says the Libyan working class will rise up against the bourgeoisie in the NTC-era is kidding themselves.

Fair enough indeed, although at the risk of sounding like I'm saying "but you need to pick sides!", it does seem to put folks who "oppose all sides" as an odd position on this conflict. Of course a revolutionary Leftist current would be nice to be there to support, but such a current did not exist in the cases of Iraq or Afghanistan either, yet it was quite clear to almost the entire Left that opposing those wars was something the US should do (as is the case with Yemen and Pakistan as well).

It's just interesting to me that the same clarity and cohesion doesn't exist in this case.

Steve_j
29th August 2011, 17:31
Both the rebels and Qaddafi are scum but Libya was a lot safer under Qaddafi then under these rebels who seem to want to emulate Afghanistan under Taliban rule.

Safer for who?

Ocean Seal
29th August 2011, 18:57
Well guise you know NATO had to get involved cause Qaddafi would have massacred Benghazi, I guess its okay that the rebels massacre those anti-American Qaddafi loyalists. Where are the rebel supporters now?

Weezer
29th August 2011, 19:32
Both sides have been committed the same crimes against humanity. Mass murder, rape, torture, etc.

There is no "good" side in this conflict.

If the "rebels" win, they will install a conservative Islamist government. If Qaddafi wins, he will continue to run his weird Green Book-fueled autocracy, posing as a quasi-revolutionary.

I only support Qaddafi on anti-imperialist grounds. Initially the rebels seemed like a revolutionary force, maybe even anti-capitalist, but it is clear they're just as bloodthirsty as NATO and Qaddafi, and equally as corrupt.

But we all know how this work out. NATO will install a military dictatorship ran by high officials of the rebel army, and the West will get their precious fossil fuels. Sigh.

Lenina Rosenweg
29th August 2011, 19:38
Qaddaffi is not completely defeated yet and in the rebel held areas the authority of the TNC is not recognized or is very weak.Imperialism is viscious and non-stop. Its also utterly incompetent.Things could start to become even more complicated and messy than they already are. Its certain there will quickly be some sort of devolution to tribal based authority.

piet11111
29th August 2011, 19:44
Safer for who?

Workers and especially the foreign ones.

They could go to work and do their groceries with almost zero chance of getting shot.
Now you really do not want to be seen by the rebels if your black.