So i found this website...

[EvilRedGuy]

Here it is http://www.socialistphalanx.com/ They talk alot about "left-nationalism" and i wanted to know where they stand. Are they reliable?


Also, they seem to hate RevLeft. :lol:

EDIT: This site has ex-Stormfront members, no wonder.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

WTF? Well, atleast it looks nice, seems to be filled with a bunch of fucking Stasserites though.

[Caj]

There seems to be a lot of fascists on that site.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

You know a "socialist" group is full of fail when they misuse fake Cyrillic letters to write in English.

Not to mention Phalanx was the name of Franco's fascist movement in Spain (Falange).

[Ballyfornia]

I found some one on it who identifies themselves as a Socialist-Nationalist/Revolutionary Trotskyist.

So as the above user stated, Full of fail.

[Volcanicity]

I only looked at their "Great quotes" thread and one user quotes the words of Tom Metzger and someone else has a quote of Oswald Mosley in their sig.

So to answer the OP yes they are reliable but only as being Fascists.

[Catmatic Leftist]

Yea, they even explicitly state that they are racialists.

And apparently we're "Cosmopolitan Socialists." :laugh:

Steer clear of that site.

[Flying Trotsky]

I found some one on it who identifies themselves as a Socialist-Nationalist/Revolutionary Trotskyist.


Isn't that a contradiction?

[Commissar Rykov]

Strasserites under the guise of Socialism...yet again. Such boring tripe and very unoriginal. The NSDAP already played that card and it got one of the Strassers a bullet in the head from Heydrich's goons.

[Ballyfornia]

Isn't that a contradiction?
...Thats why it was Full of fail Lol

[Red Future]

This is confusing.....really .it could be a trolling operation.

[NewSocialist]

Looks like they found us too
http://www.socialistphalanx.com/t451-revleft-discovers-the-socialist-phalanx

Other than their forum, all I could find online from them is this youtube vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAou8-LppcQ
:laugh:

EDIT: looks like they are nazbols, judging from the pulled chicken symbol they use - http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j374/ECRSF/rightway.gif

[Coach Trotsky]

I bet they even listen to Rammstein. Everyone knows that people who listen to Rammstein are fascists. It even sounds fascist. :laugh:

(I'm parodying the easy knee-jerk reactions to this forum).

[svenne]

Hah. Good that these things only work on the Internet. On a somewhat more serious and scary note, i really can't see much difference between them, and some proponents of African socialism, Arab socialism and other ideologies, which combines anti-imperialism with vague ideas of socialism. As long as they're just a bunch of kids without influence in the labor movement, social movements or anything like that, we should propably just ignore them. If anything, the few who tries that propably end up in our movement anyway. LOL at you, dear fascists.

EDIT: I must say it's kinda funny that their forum for "opposing views" includes one for reactionaries, and one for Cosmopolitans (always thought that was a drink...)

[Rusty Shackleford]

Looks like a few of them have a membership on here.

a "Pagan Socialist" so anyone with interests in mysticism are immediately suspect.







:lol:

[thefinalmarch]

Strasserism is an actual tendency on that forum. Wow.
http://www.socialistphalanx.com/t302-strasserism

To any "socialist phalanx" strasserites lurking this thread: I'll read your nonsense a bit later.

[Coach Trotsky]

So, would anyone like to take a shot at providing a serious analysis on this forum, its inner contradictions and dynamics, and its overall aims?

What do you make of their FAQ:

http://www.socialistphalanx.com/t184-faq

[Susurrus]

Wasn't a phalanx Fourier's model for society?

[NewSocialist]

Wasn't a phalanx Fourier's model for society?

Yup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Phalanx

[Coach Trotsky]

Okay, I find it interesting that the mods and some members there are arguing against fascism, racism, class collaboration and for a revolutionary socialism based on the working class. And a lot of the fascist types/posts have been restricted to the reactionary section of their Opposing Views.
So, it's not such a clear cut case over on Socialist Phalanx.
I think this is something different.

[Catmatic Leftist]

Doing a little lurking, they're obviously imposter: they're sexists through and through.

http://www.socialistphalanx.com/f23-lounge

[Rafiq]

I don't think they're Fascists or anything similar, to be honest. That would be an ignorant accusation.

I would guess that they are former members of stormfront who have decided to take a more left leaning approach to their politics, i.e., they are stuck in some sort of limbo, where they combined their reactionary bourgeois views (Nationalism) with revolutionary ideology.

Think of it as a shift in politics, they'll eventually choose one over the other, and that will define their politics.

Also, I believe, after scrolling through the site, that strasserists are not very popular there. Actually Stalinism as a tendency is quite popular on there. They are much more tolerant to fascists, and hitlerites, than us, though.

It would be wrong to categorize them simply as racists and fascists, because their state of affairs (However bat shit insane it may be perceived) is much more complicated then that. The Idealogy is not necessarily class collaborationism, but it's definitely pretty stupid, (in that a worker's state would have no use for nationalism, if the revolution were to spread to every nation).

[Rusty Shackleford]

Also, I believe, after scrolling through the site, that strasserists are not very popular there. Actually Stalinism as a tendency is quite popular on there. They are much more tolerant to fascists, and hitlerites, than us, though.



Its probably because they just like strong man politics. That and they are probably politically immature and think that stalin was some russian nationalist (even though he was goergian!) and probably played too much red alert and watch too much history channel.

[EvilRedGuy]

I don't think they're Fascists or anything similar, to be honest. That would be an ignorant accusation.

I would guess that they are former members of stormfront who have decided to take a more left leaning approach to their politics, i.e., they are stuck in some sort of limbo, where they combined their reactionary bourgeois views (Nationalism) with revolutionary ideology.

Think of it as a shift in politics, they'll eventually choose one over the other, and that will define their politics.

Also, I believe, after scrolling through the site, that strasserists are not very popular there. Actually Stalinism as a tendency is quite popular on there. They are much more tolerant to fascists, and hitlerites, than us, though.

It would be wrong to categorize them simply as racists and fascists, because their state of affairs (However bat shit insane it may be perceived) is much more complicated then that. The Idealogy is not necessarily class collaborationism, but it's definitely pretty stupid, (in that a worker's state would have no use for nationalism, if the revolution were to spread to every nation).

This is exactly what im thinking.
Still, they are stuck in their weired pseudo-"revolutionary socialist" views with hints of national socialism(aka neo-nazism), sexism, and sectarianism (There is one self-proclaimed Syndicalist who quotes the failure of anarchism like they were anti-anarchist. WTF). You can easily tell there is something wrong the first time you go there. :p

[Rusty Shackleford]

That's amusing. A RevLeft member characterizing socialism as an expression of 'strong man politics'. Careful, you might get banned for being a 'sexist'.

Sorry, the founders/membership of this forum are hardly so pitifully insecure as to gravitate towards an ideology on the basis of its perceived masculinity. (And just for the record, the general demeanor of the average male RevLeft member hardly screams masculinity.)

Ha they claim that i claim that socialism is about strong man politics when he/she missed the point of me saying that, basically, the fetishization of Stalin is basically just an attraction to strongman politics.

(And no, ISMAIL, im not attacking you, you dont seem to fetishize STALINNNNNN)


What's all this nonsense about Stalin? This individual obviously hasn't invested any time into understanding the first thing about this forum. Sure, Stalinists are welcome, but Stalinism (heterodox or otherwise) is hardly the foundational or prevailing tendency here.

This is just another example of a RevLeft ignoramus jumping to the same old stereotypical conclusions about socialists who embrace certain expressions of nationalism. As I said before, most of the individuals on that forum are insulated, petit-bourgeois snobs, with a correspondingly repulsive hubris and dogmatic approach to every conceivable question.

Oh check it out! were all petit-bourgeois snobs! Funny thing is, most long time users here are wage-workers or squatters.



And yes, you SF/SPh-ers who are watching this, i did make a highly intelligent jab at your website by calling it Phailanx. Har har har, my wit is unending!





Nationalism nationalism and nationalism.

the working class has no nation and the only role for nationalism is oppressed nations breaking free from the yoke of imperialism. And once that happens, it either remains under the control of the national bourgeoisie and remains nationalist, or becomes a workers' state and does not remain nationalist, but becomes internationalist.

Lets take the former Soviet Union as an example. All of the former soviet socialist republics were simply a part of the Russian Empire. With the revolution, all nations were given sovereignty. Ukraine became Ukrainian, Byelorussia became Byelorussian, Kazakhstan? Kazakh! Had the USSR been nationalist, Stalin would never have become General Secretary, and all the republics would have been one republic dominated by the same white-russians (not white as in the color, but as in nation) that ruled the empire, in which case, the USSR would not have had any grounds to claim itself as socialist.


wolves in sheeps clothing.

[Comrade Gwydion]

a "Pagan Socialist" so anyone with interests in mysticism are immediately suspect.


*cough*

I hope I'm misunderstanding you here, comrade.
I'm a pagan socialist myself, although the 'group description' is far to cheesy.
Probably some on here would call me 'liberal' or 'reformist' for some of the things I think, but there's no way you can call me a nationalist.

You know, most Pagans aren't 'nordic revivalists' or 'asatru' and even most of them really don't care about nationalism. In the least.

[Commissar Rykov]

I enjoy all the racialists and racialist discussions they have like http://www.socialistphalanx.com/t455-racial-homosexuality

Just a bunch of racialist wankers who don't want to associate with SF because they consider themselves Left Wing and thus would be unwelcome by their fellow idiots. It is hilarious in that it is pathetic and intellectually vapid. I do love how they whine about how they are not bigots then call posters here effeminate, petite-bourgeois, etc. What a bunch of clowns who wouldn't know Socialism or Leftist thought if it bite them in the ass. They missed their boat in the 20th Century when Yellow Socialists became Nazis and Fascists.

[Rafiq]

To the Socialist Phalanx:

Well considering Nations are generally social constructions themselves, I fail to see how they're relevant to proletarian emancipation.

Nations will change and alter themselves over time (Lebanon has only existed for the past 70 or so years, plus Phonocea included parts of Palestine and Syria, and it has drastically changed since then, via Rape, Slave Trade, culture wise, etc).

It is impossible to preserve a Nation for so many years. And I don't think any one who would even dare call themselves Socialist would suggest the workers of all countries build boundaries between themselves, while the Bourgeoisie is teaming up internationally, you suggest we divide amongst ourselves.

And the Soviet Union embraced nationalism because the revolution failed to spread to the surrounding countries, therefore the revolution was isolated and slowly, slowly degenerated into something horrible.

[Rusty Shackleford]

*cough*

I hope I'm misunderstanding you here, comrade.
I'm a pagan socialist myself, although the 'group description' is far to cheesy.
Probably some on here would call me 'liberal' or 'reformist' for some of the things I think, but there's no way you can call me a nationalist.

You know, most Pagans aren't 'nordic revivalists' or 'asatru' and even most of them really don't care about nationalism. In the least.
i was joking around.

maybe the :lol: didnt clear it up.

[Magón]

Well this was entertaining for about a minute. Who's the next site found and talked about, which will inevitably lead to another forum v. forum.

[Coach Trotsky]

Well, does Rafiq or anyone else here have a response to the last post of this Socialist Phalanx thread (replying to Rafiq's post 28 of this thread)?

[Rafiq]

To the Phalanx:


Besides, if countries are not needed, why all the support for national liberation militias? Oh, when fighting imperialism suddenly nationalism is ok? And if those same people don't want to be part of that "one people, one race, one language" dream? We here denounce such hypocrisy. More than ever, borders are needed, solidarity,and thinking about your people and your fellow workers is needed, protecting domestic markets is needed, respect for other nations is needed. There will always be something to divide us, even sports is enough, but we shouldn't want to destroy the few things that can bound our distinct people together, or else you can be sure your future lies on something along the lines of any futuristic dystopia.


Because national liberation is a bourgeois, class collaborationist concept itself.

Workers being used as cannonfire for the national bourgeoisie isn't something i'm too fond of. Imperialism can only be stopped through a Proletariat revolution from within an Imperialist country, thus creating a Proletarian dictatorship, etc. (you know the drill).


Good luck trying to show people that they should forget their countries, and "fight the system" instead. I am sure it will bring results, like it did in the last few decades...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_consciousness


National working class liberation is the only realistic manner of accomplishing a working class revolution. Considering that individuals within nations tend to identify with their national heritage (and why should they not?)

Because it does little to serve their class interest, as Nations are weapons of the Bourgeoisie to instill class collaborationist propaganda, whether it be for the sake of Imperialism or anti Imperialism (We need to unite as a nation and work together! kind of shit)


That is anathema to what we propound. The demand that a nation be arbitrarily "preserved" (whatever that is to embody) is a reactionary nationalist conception. We do not ask that nations be "preserved" indefinitely, only that differentiated peoples with common interests be respected as legitimate constructs and, if warranted, granted autonomy. This does in no way undermine international cooperation, but on the contrary, it allows for diverse peoples to express solidarity without infringement upon them. This, and not some mindless pursuit of "integration," is the key to a truly international revolution: a global movement to eradicate capitalism, in which ethnically distinct working peoples stand as one due to their confidence that their own autonomy will not in turn be encroached, that stands in contrast to the contemporary fray spurred by imperialistic policies and cosmopolitan delusions.


Perhaps I am mistaken on your conceptions of nationalism, then.

However, what it does serve, is still an international divide for the proletariat, different 'nations' competing for different resources, Land mass, sounds like a call to war from my perspective.

Everyone on Earth needs all of the Earth, it's resources, land, should be the property of all Proletarians.


This is both partially correct at best and irrelevant, so I will not address it. Admin has already refuted the major myths surrounding the Soviet Union's position with respect to nationalism.


While the Soviet Union became more "Nationalist" it also became more Bourgeois. It's degeneration..

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

Well, does Rafiq or anyone else here have a response to the last post of this Socialist Phalanx thread (replying to Rafiq's post 28 of this thread)?

What is up, dude?

Anyone else find it funny that Coach Trotsky is the only person defending this bunch of hitlerites and strasserites and that there is a member on Socialist Phalanx named "Coach" who is also from the "US MidWest" and identifies as a "Socialist-Nationalist/Revolutionary Trotskyist".

[Rusty Shackleford]

What is up, dude?

Anyone else find it funny that Coach Trotsky is the only person defending this bunch of hitlerites and strasserites and that there is a member on Socialist Phalanx named "Coach" who is also from the "US MidWest" and identifies as a "Socialist-Nationalist/Revolutionary Trotskyist".
http://i55.tinypic.com/34r64hd.jpg
(Courtesy of Comrade Ducky)

[Commissar Rykov]

What is up, dude?

Anyone else find it funny that Coach Trotsky is the only person defending this bunch of hitlerites and strasserites and that there is a member on Socialist Phalanx named "Coach" who is also from the "US MidWest" and identifies as a "Socialist-Nationalist/Revolutionary Trotskyist".
I am pretty sure they are one and the same and thus should be restricted.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

Just saying, why not be open about it instead of trying to make it seem like there is support on RevLeft for those politics from people who aren't on Socialist Phalanx. People should be open in their beliefs and not hide them.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

I am pretty sure they are one and the same and thus should be restricted.

Says the guy who would restrict me if he could. I'm not talking about any form of restriction or purge, merely about people putting all their cards on the table instead of lying or creating a facade.

[Thirsty Crow]

wolves in sheeps clothing.
Brownshirts waving the red flag.

Also, I'm under the impression that someone from the phailanx stated the protection of internal markets as an argument in favour of their brand of nationalism.

And they uphold revolutionary socialism. Right.
Big surprise, really.

[Catmatic Leftist]

I hate it when fascists hide behind socialist symbolism and insignia; it makes everything so confusing. The fascists can't even get any legitimacy for their own program, so they hide behind something else to make them seem more plausible than they actually are.

[Thirsty Crow]

I hate it when fascists hide behind socialist symbolism and insignia; it makes everything so confusing. The fascists can't even get any legitimacy for their own program, so they hide behind something else to make them seem more plausible than they actually are.
There's facism and there's fascism.

What I'm getting at is that Fascism is not a monolithic, unitary political doctrine. There are differences.
(and I wouldn't like this statement to be construed as apologism for Strasserites).

[Rafiq]

That's a pretty rapid degeneration, considering the fact that the material I quoted came directly from the constitution of 1918. Does that document strike you as especially bourgeois?


The constitution, though, had no hints of actual Nationalism, which was opposed by the Bolsheviks.

However, from another point of view, Rosa Luxemburg did point out the 'Nationalism' of the Bolsheviks as early as 1918.

The emancipation of the peasantry and proletariat of the oppressed nations under the Russian empire is not to be confused with nationalism, as this call was for every country, across the globe, indiscriminate of any Nation.

[Rafiq]

I am not an admin and I cannot do anything about the Restriction of the users of the Phalanx.

But I will tell you, that I believe you are (Besides Strasserists, I think) allowed to do whatever you may please in the Opposing Idealogies forum.

So I welcome you to such, where we can have a civilized debate. It should be interesting...

[Tim Cornelis]

Nationalist Trotskyism...?

Wow, just wow.

[L.A.P.]

Neo-Fascists/Thrid Positionists are politically the biggest weirdos throughout the whole spectrum. The site does a good job at trying to conceal the brown shirt under their red sweater better than most though. For a second, I thought it was actually just a left-wing nationalist site that was unfortunate enough to have a small group of Strasserists, but they really are all just reactionaries who don't understand the role of the nation in capitalist society.

[Coach Trotsky]

What about the nation as the proletarians defined themselves when they seize power and establish their own workers' states? You think they will instantly form some sort of "Soviet Union' out of thin air? For example, in North America, you seriously think that proletarians there will not INSIST upon having, say, 'Native' or 'First Nation' national communities with their own workers' state within whatever union between the workers' states are formed? You want to Native Americans to just forget about their unique cultures and pretend "we're all the same" and "just trust us" in forsake their own right to sovereign national self-determination, and those Native Americans who don't go along are to be assumed as reactionaries?! Because that is what happens when your political logic get applied to reality. And Native Americans throughout North America would consider your effort to be the finalization campaign of their genocide, CORRECTLY!

Here in this thread, the cause and practical efforts for national liberation has been outright mocked as bourgeois ALWAYS! Ridiculous nonsense, that could only spawn out of the minds of the bourgeois liberals and middle class Left in the global north imperialist countries, who have a lot of nerve pointing at the faults of others before being honest about the makeup of their own ranks, and when you point to your token diversity exceptions you're only proving the rule about your movement! Your approach to oppressed minority interests and concerns is hardly a fundamental improvement over the old-time segregationists and imperialists...just the other side of the same damn coin!

You think there is something strange and contradictory about being inspired by Lenin and Trotsky's revolutionary socialism yet being enough of a realist to grasp that when the workers seize power they WILL have countries of their own, and will not let any high-and-mighty privileged international elite force them into a globalist monocultural slave system! It must be socialist revolution and proletarian rule from below, or fuck off with your slavery schemes! Your phony "Left" has ignored, abandoned, misled and betrayed the worse off workers and oppressed peoples and the hopeless-under-this-system youth of the world for so long...ENOUGH!
Your "Left" made its historic choice, and it wasn't to consistently stand with us in struggle. The time for a Next Revolutionary Left has long since ripened. Don't be surprised when it doesn't fit your preconceived notions and doesn't adhere to your ivory tower manufactured sacred cow idolatry.

[Commissar Rykov]

Says the guy who would restrict me if he could. I'm not talking about any form of restriction or purge, merely about people putting all their cards on the table instead of lying or creating a facade.
Why would I restrict you? That was just bizarre unless you are stating you are a reactionary nationalist.:confused:

[Commissar Rykov]

What about the nation as the proletarians defined themselves when they seize power and establish their own workers' states? You think they will instantly form some sort of "Soviet Union' out of thin air? For example, in North America, you seriously think that proletarians there will not INSIST upon having, say, 'Native' or 'First Nation' national communities with their own workers' state within whatever union between the workers' states are formed? You want to Native Americans to just forget about their unique cultures and pretend "we're all the same" and "just trust us" in forsake their own right to sovereign national self-determination, and those Native Americans who don't go along are to be assumed as reactionaries?! Because that is what happens when your political logic get applied to reality. And Native Americans throughout North America would consider your effort to be the finalization campaign of their genocide, CORRECTLY!

Here in this thread, the cause and practical efforts for national liberation has been outright mocked as bourgeois ALWAYS! Ridiculous nonsense, that could only spawn out of the minds of the bourgeois liberals and middle class Left in the global north imperialist countries, who have a lot of nerve pointing at the faults of others before being honest about the makeup of their own ranks, and when you point to your token diversity exceptions you're only proving the rule about your movement! Your approach to oppressed minority interests and concerns is hardly a fundamental improvement over the old-time segregationists and imperialists...just the other side of the same damn coin!

You think there is something strange and contradictory about being inspired by Lenin and Trotsky's revolutionary socialism yet being enough of a realist to grasp that when the workers seize power they WILL have countries of their own, and will not let any high-and-mighty privileged international elite force them into a globalist monocultural slave system! It must be socialist revolution and proletarian rule from below, or fuck off with your slavery schemes! Your phony "Left" has ignored, abandoned, misled and betrayed the worse off workers and oppressed peoples and the hopeless-under-this-system youth of the world for so long...ENOUGH!
Your "Left" made its historic choice, and it wasn't to consistently stand with us in struggle. The time for a Next Revolutionary Left has long since ripened. Don't be surprised when it doesn't fit your preconceived notions and doesn't adhere to your ivory tower manufactured sacred cow idolatry.
Is this you admitting that you are Coach from that board? I hope so.

[electro_fan]

What about the nation as the proletarians defined themselves when they seize power and establish their own workers' states? You think they will instantly form some sort of "Soviet Union' out of thin air? For example, in North America, you seriously think that proletarians there will not INSIST upon having, say, 'Native' or 'First Nation' national communities with their own workers' state within whatever union between the workers' states are formed? You want to Native Americans to just forget about their unique cultures and pretend "we're all the same" and "just trust us" in forsake their own right to sovereign national self-determination, and those Native Americans who don't go along are to be assumed as reactionaries?! Because that is what happens when your political logic get applied to reality. And Native Americans throughout North America would consider your effort to be the finalization campaign of their genocide, CORRECTLY!

Here in this thread, the cause and practical efforts for national liberation has been outright mocked as bourgeois ALWAYS! Ridiculous nonsense, that could only spawn out of the minds of the bourgeois liberals and middle class Left in the global north imperialist countries, who have a lot of nerve pointing at the faults of others before being honest about the makeup of their own ranks, and when you point to your token diversity exceptions you're only proving the rule about your movement! Your approach to oppressed minority interests and concerns is hardly a fundamental improvement over the old-time segregationists and imperialists...just the other side of the same damn coin!

You think there is something strange and contradictory about being inspired by Lenin and Trotsky's revolutionary socialism yet being enough of a realist to grasp that when the workers seize power they WILL have countries of their own, and will not let any high-and-mighty privileged international elite force them into a globalist monocultural slave system! It must be socialist revolution and proletarian rule from below, or fuck off with your slavery schemes! Your phony "Left" has ignored, abandoned, misled and betrayed the worse off workers and oppressed peoples and the hopeless-under-this-system youth of the world for so long...ENOUGH!
Your "Left" made its historic choice, and it wasn't to consistently stand with us in struggle. The time for a Next Revolutionary Left has long since ripened. Don't be surprised when it doesn't fit your preconceived notions and doesn't adhere to your ivory tower manufactured sacred cow idolatry.

oh look, you can say big words, how erudite you are, you fucking fash prick

[Catmatic Leftist]

Is this you admitting that you are Coach from that board? I hope so.

He is most definitely Coach from that board; there's no way you can doubt it.

Kotze made a thread in the Member's forum where I posted empirical proof of it.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/restrict-coach-trotsky-t160439/index.html?p=2219573#post2219573

[electro_fan]

high-and-mighty privileged international elite

the dog has been whistled at

[Catmatic Leftist]

What about the nation as the proletarians defined themselves when they seize power and establish their own workers' states? You think they will instantly form some sort of "Soviet Union' out of thin air? For example, in North America, you seriously think that proletarians there will not INSIST upon having, say, 'Native' or 'First Nation' national communities with their own workers' state within whatever union between the workers' states are formed? You want to Native Americans to just forget about their unique cultures and pretend "we're all the same" and "just trust us" in forsake their own right to sovereign national self-determination, and those Native Americans who don't go along are to be assumed as reactionaries?! Because that is what happens when your political logic get applied to reality. And Native Americans throughout North America would consider your effort to be the finalization campaign of their genocide, CORRECTLY!

Here in this thread, the cause and practical efforts for national liberation has been outright mocked as bourgeois ALWAYS! Ridiculous nonsense, that could only spawn out of the minds of the bourgeois liberals and middle class Left in the global north imperialist countries, who have a lot of nerve pointing at the faults of others before being honest about the makeup of their own ranks, and when you point to your token diversity exceptions you're only proving the rule about your movement! Your approach to oppressed minority interests and concerns is hardly a fundamental improvement over the old-time segregationists and imperialists...just the other side of the same damn coin!

You think there is something strange and contradictory about being inspired by Lenin and Trotsky's revolutionary socialism yet being enough of a realist to grasp that when the workers seize power they WILL have countries of their own, and will not let any high-and-mighty privileged international elite force them into a globalist monocultural slave system! It must be socialist revolution and proletarian rule from below, or fuck off with your slavery schemes! Your phony "Left" has ignored, abandoned, misled and betrayed the worse off workers and oppressed peoples and the hopeless-under-this-system youth of the world for so long...ENOUGH!
Your "Left" made its historic choice, and it wasn't to consistently stand with us in struggle. The time for a Next Revolutionary Left has long since ripened. Don't be surprised when it doesn't fit your preconceived notions and doesn't adhere to your ivory tower manufactured sacred cow idolatry.

Hey you.

Fuck off and never come back.

:)

[Rafiq]

Therefore, if the zealots at RevLeft cannot be reasonable, I recommend that you and your friends come and debate us here, in our OV section.


I am not in the administrative team so I have nothing to do with whether you get banned.

However it's worth a shot, and if you're banned I'll be happy to make an account in your opposing idealogies forum and debate you.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

Why would I restrict you? That was just bizarre unless you are stating you are a reactionary nationalist.:confused:

You appear to be a fanboy of Stalin; the great liberator of life from bodies. As such, you would likely want me - a Trotskyist - restricted or purged if you had the opportunity.

[Ocean Seal]

WTF is a cosmopolitan socialist, am I the only one who doesn't know?

[electro_fan]

WTF is a cosmopolitan socialist, am I the only one who doesn't know?

think about "international financiers", the "global elite" and that sort of thing and you're on the right track

[Catmatic Leftist]

WTF is a cosmopolitan socialist, am I the only one who doesn't know?

It's their form of pejorative slur.

[Catmatic Leftist]

Hehehe I actually kinda like that term.

I'm going to embrace it. Just to be ironic.

[#FF0000]

-is mocked as a middle-class student petit bourgeois etc etc etc for not hating black people and not being a racist-

-works in factories with black people and white people and indian people and egyptian people-

hm i am having a hard time taking you seriously here, ct

[Catmatic Leftist]

I made an account over there called "Socialist Phailanx"

It got immediately banned before I could even post.


You have been banned from this forum.
Until 31/08/2011
For the reason : Specify who you are and what your intentions are at the following link, if you would like to have your ban lifted: http://www.revleft.com/vb/so-found-website-t160338/index.html Best regards, Admin.

:laugh:

All I wanted to do was have a nice fun debate.

[L.A.P.]

What about the nation as the proletarians defined themselves when they seize power and establish their own workers' states? You think they will instantly form some sort of "Soviet Union' out of thin air? For example, in North America, you seriously think that proletarians there will not INSIST upon having, say, 'Native' or 'First Nation' national communities with their own workers' state within whatever union between the workers' states are formed? You want to Native Americans to just forget about their unique cultures and pretend "we're all the same" and "just trust us" in forsake their own right to sovereign national self-determination, and those Native Americans who don't go along are to be assumed as reactionaries?! Because that is what happens when your political logic get applied to reality. And Native Americans throughout North America would consider your effort to be the finalization campaign of their genocide, CORRECTLY!

Here in this thread, the cause and practical efforts for national liberation has been outright mocked as bourgeois ALWAYS! Ridiculous nonsense, that could only spawn out of the minds of the bourgeois liberals and middle class Left in the global north imperialist countries, who have a lot of nerve pointing at the faults of others before being honest about the makeup of their own ranks, and when you point to your token diversity exceptions you're only proving the rule about your movement! Your approach to oppressed minority interests and concerns is hardly a fundamental improvement over the old-time segregationists and imperialists...just the other side of the same damn coin!

You think there is something strange and contradictory about being inspired by Lenin and Trotsky's revolutionary socialism yet being enough of a realist to grasp that when the workers seize power they WILL have countries of their own, and will not let any high-and-mighty privileged international elite force them into a globalist monocultural slave system! It must be socialist revolution and proletarian rule from below, or fuck off with your slavery schemes! Your phony "Left" has ignored, abandoned, misled and betrayed the worse off workers and oppressed peoples and the hopeless-under-this-system youth of the world for so long...ENOUGH!
Your "Left" made its historic choice, and it wasn't to consistently stand with us in struggle. The time for a Next Revolutionary Left has long since ripened. Don't be surprised when it doesn't fit your preconceived notions and doesn't adhere to your ivory tower manufactured sacred cow idolatry.

Nice to see you've finally come out of the fascist closet, enjoy your ban.

[electro_fan]

i don't understand why you could be a trot, and a fash at the same time? trotsky was JEWISH ffs, and so was Marx, so how the hell does that fit with this guy's "white nationalist" views, and what separated him from stalin was his ideas of saying that there could not be socialism in one country, but the working class of all countries had to fight for socialism across the world?

WN type fash also believe that the protocols of the elders of zion are a real document, or at least describe something that's really happening, and the protocols describe communism and workers' movements as being a jewish plot. so how the hell does this make sense if they then say they are trotskyists, when trotsky was not only jewish, but also socialist?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

What about the nation as the proletarians defined themselves when they seize power and establish their own workers' states? You think they will instantly form some sort of "Soviet Union' out of thin air?

The problem being that sort of thing has already been tried, and it failed spectacularly.


For example, in North America, you seriously think that proletarians there will not INSIST upon having, say, 'Native' or 'First Nation' national communities with their own workers' state within whatever union between the workers' states are formed? You want to Native Americans to just forget about their unique cultures and pretend "we're all the same" and "just trust us" in forsake their own right to sovereign national self-determination, and those Native Americans who don't go along are to be assumed as reactionaries?!

Being economically and politically united does not necessarily entail a monoculture.


Because that is what happens when your political logic get applied to reality. And Native Americans throughout North America would consider your effort to be the finalization campaign of their genocide, CORRECTLY!

What ridiculous hyperbole. It's not internationalism that has historically lead to genocide, but rather extreme nationalism of the worst kind.


Here in this thread, the cause and practical efforts for national liberation has been outright mocked as bourgeois ALWAYS! Ridiculous nonsense, that could only spawn out of the minds of the bourgeois liberals and middle class Left in the global north imperialist countries,

Please don't make baseless assumptions about people you have never met.


who have a lot of nerve pointing at the faults of others before being honest about the makeup of their own ranks, and when you point to your token diversity exceptions you're only proving the rule about your movement! Your approach to oppressed minority interests and concerns is hardly a fundamental improvement over the old-time segregationists and imperialists...just the other side of the same damn coin!

More nonsense. Just because we have little patience for nationalists does not mean we are intent on genocide.


You think there is something strange and contradictory about being inspired by Lenin and Trotsky's revolutionary socialism yet being enough of a realist to grasp that when the workers seize power they WILL have countries of their own, and will not let any high-and-mighty privileged international elite force them into a globalist monocultural slave system!

What "global elite"? Are you talking about the capitalists? We oppose them, silly!


It must be socialist revolution and proletarian rule from below, or fuck off with your slavery schemes! Your phony "Left" has ignored, abandoned, misled and betrayed the worse off workers and oppressed peoples and the hopeless-under-this-system youth of the world for so long...ENOUGH!
Your "Left" made its historic choice, and it wasn't to consistently stand with us in struggle. The time for a Next Revolutionary Left has long since ripened. Don't be surprised when it doesn't fit your preconceived notions and doesn't adhere to your ivory tower manufactured sacred cow idolatry.

Please calm down, your excitment is beginning to effect your coherence. None of here are in favour of slavery (well, maybe some of the libertarian Randroids in OI are, but they don't count). We just recognise that nations aren't set in stone, one's nationality is a matter of luck and thus isn't something to be proud of in itself.

If there are customs, practices, and cultural artefacts you want to conserve, then that's fine... unless it's shit like female genital mutilation. That sort of sexist crap belongs in the trashcan of history.

[Coach Trotsky]

i don't understand why you could be a trot, and a fash at the same time? trotsky was JEWISH ffs, and so was Marx, so how the hell does that fit with this guy's "white nationalist" views, and what separated him from stalin was his ideas of saying that there could not be socialism in one country, but the working class of all countries had to fight for socialism across the world?

WN type fash also believe that the protocols of the elders of zion are a real document, or at least describe something that's really happening, and the protocols describe communism and workers' movements as being a jewish plot. so how the hell does this make sense if they then say they are trotskyists, when trotsky was not only jewish, but also socialist?

Perhaps the reason is because Socialist Phalanx ain't "white nationalists" and ain't fascist. Yes, some of Socialist Phalanx folks came from fundamental break with WN transpiring over the last couple of years. These folks broke AWAY from fascism and racism, away from class collaboration. Some--those calling themselves "Strasserites" or similar Third Way types--are being engaged, challenged, and some are moving bit by bit. Yes, it is tedious and frustrating.
It would be a lot easier to make this struggle with white working class people who still cling to some WN/fascist delusions if:
1) There was a higher level of class struggle taking place in the countries where we live.
2) The "revolutionary Left" actually was dynamically engaging those at the bottom of society and responding effectively to the initiatives of those trying to make a real fightback for more radical solutions. Use a transitional method beginning with where these folks are at NOW, rather than waiting until some day when people magically are supposed to "awaken" or become "enlightened". If you don't persistently engage and you don't listen and you don't provide dynamic transitional revolutionary socialist guidance, their consciousness, activity and organization will not improve...and neither will yours.
3) The "revolutionary Left" clearly differentiated its political stance and practical approach to questions of nationhood and special oppression from the bourgeois liberals and petty bourgeois reformists. When you take your cues and accept the constraints about what is considered 'progressive' from the exploiting classes and their sellout misleaders, of course you'll end up on the wrong side and facing off against people who instead you "leftist" should be standing with and championing their interests.

[Commissar Rykov]

You appear to be a fanboy of Stalin; the great liberator of life from bodies. As such, you would likely want me - a Trotskyist - restricted or purged if you had the opportunity.
That is an odd conclusion to come to but you are welcome to it. I would suggest less time being paranoid though.

[Rusty Shackleford]

whats shocking is these twits quote lenin to defend and promote racial separatism.

[o well this is ok I guess]

That is an odd conclusion to come to but you are welcome to it. I would suggest less time being paranoid though. Wasn't odd for Trotsky.

[Commissar Rykov]

whats shocking is these twits quote lenin to defend and promote racial separatism.
They seem to quote a lot of different people and usually not in context. It really just seems a piss poor attempt at mixing Third Positionism with Leftism...yet again. I thought this garbage died out in the early to mid 20th Century? Guess not.

[Rusty Shackleford]

well, it wont really die out until society evolves into a new one where any material basis for it does not exist.

class society, in any form, provides a material basis for it. even if the working class held political power globally, it still exists as a class until socialist society is a relic of history and class ceases to exist. Just because the working class is in power globally doesnt mean society has move with it completely, there is still a chance for a return to the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie because an exploited class cannot exist without an exploiting class. if it did, it would cease to even be a class.

[Rocky Rococo]

Rotten tomato socialists: red on the outside, brown on the inside.

If I'm a "Cosmopolitan Socialist" does that mean Tina Brown thinks my hoodie and kerchief are tres chic?

Edited to add: I'd say my avatar is about as "Cosmopolitan Socialist" as it is possible to be!

[Die Rote Fahne]

Oh look, a website full of assclowns who think they're left wing...cute.

Also, kill whitey.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Wow.

You guys call yourself activists?

You're spending your time bashing another community and labeling anyone who disagrees with you a fascist? Proposing bans for anyone with differing ideas? Obsessing over haughty classifications?

Sounds all too familiar.

Glad to see revleft is as productive as ever before.


And of course that won't get posted. Bill of Rights was just a rough draft anyways, right?

:lol: Used to Storm Front aren't we, aworldsman?

People have what is called leisure time. i guess the concept of politics and theory and all that as leisure was lost on you.

[Catmatic Leftist]

Wow.

You guys call yourself activists?

You're spending your time bashing another community and labeling anyone who disagrees with you a fascist? Proposing bans for anyone with differing ideas? Obsessing over haughty classifications?

Sounds all too familiar.

Glad to see revleft is as productive as ever before.

Well, considering that there's plenty of empirical evidence to call them fascists...

[Ocean Seal]

-is mocked as a middle-class student petit bourgeois etc etc etc for not hating black people and not being a racist-

-works in factories with black people and white people and indian people and egyptian people-

hm i am having a hard time taking you seriously here, ct
Yeah see that's what I was thinking. But on their boards they reinforce that they aren't racists or fascists. Do they oppose race-mixing? And no seriously, what is a cosmopolitan socialist? Is it just someone who rejects a racial conscience and doesn't oppose race mixing? I feel as if that's something that would be most concerned about. Especially those who claim not be racist hang onto that vibe of racial purity.
Anyway, I've worked minimum wage with blacks, whites, and asians, and I had no problems with any of them and I'm latino, so I suppose that makes me some kind of rich philosopher prince.

[Aspiring Humanist]

Mein Kampf
I think everyone in this movement needs to read this. Its like the bible for us. I have the same version, though I hear the Ford translation is the best.

Fascist scum

[Thirsty Crow]

Yeah see that's what I was thinking. But on their boards they reinforce that they aren't racists or fascists. Do they oppose race-mixing? And no seriously, what is a cosmopolitan socialist?
I think that this cosmopolitanism thing is connected to the notion of a monoculture being forced onto different peoples' living different cultures. That might be based on another notion, that of American cultural imperialism (McDonald's like fast food, hollywood, Lady Gaga or any other similar musical phenomenon). Maybe it's not, I don't know. But what seems clear is that people are anxious with regard to their national culture, and seem to think that it could be endangered. They latch nationalist emphasis onto this, in the form of politics based on the sense of kinship between people related by means of language, shared history, territory and so on. They basically invoke the image of tough on immigration, favouring cultural assimilation and indeed ethnic cultural supremacy.

But what's confusing about that forum is that there are people, and I don't think they're confined to OI, that are strictly anti-nationalist and communist.

Strange lot definitely.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Some of the RevLefters might have learned something if they hadn't been so busy seeking out their own entertainment via witch-hunting.
They used a snapshot of my outlook at the very beginnings of the break with WN, since that allowed them to claim "a-ha, fascist", rather than seriously examining the development processes of the long-term folks on here between that split and today. Needless to say, my views on race changed since April.

However, with that "kill whitey" statement, the current "RevLeft" have demonstrated their anti-Euroethnic bias, especially when it comes to working class and poor whites.
RevLeft and similar faux-leftists LIBERALS say "kill whitey". I ask, what is so progressive and so revolutionary about THAT?!

kill whitey politics? anti poor working whites? you do realize that "redneck" and "white trash" are considered classist terms on here right?

were not going to use trickery and reactionary rhetoric (or in your case, left wing rhetoric to mask your racialist ambitions) to win them over.

i suddenly have no more fucks to give. im ending this post.

[L.A.P.]

I'm surprised no one has brought up what cosmopolitanism since so many users are wondering. It's the belief that all humans belong to a single community based on a shared morality. Cosmopolitanism can be traced back to a quote from Socrates "I am not an Athenian or a Greek, but a citizen of the world." This is opposed to nationalism obviously.

[Magón]

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/10/3/33898d08-fa18-49a5-b242-1afdb2572b33.jpg

[L.A.P.]

Wow, look at the response from their admin to my post


all just reactionaries who don't understand the role of the nation in capitalist society.


What a profoundly moronic statement. Had we no understanding of the function of various expressions of nationalism in capitalist societies, we would not endeavor to embrace left-wing nationalism — which explicitly rejects capitalism, imperialism, and all other manner of reactionary principles. For once, I would love for one of you assholes to actually substantiate your claims with evidence, rather than continue to post the same old (discredited) talking-points.

So basically you do understand the role of a nation in capitalist society because if you didn't then you wouldn't be a "left-wing nationalist". How could I argue with such profound logic? Obviously I've been proven wrong.

[Catmatic Leftist]

@ Coach

It's good that you got past that Stormfront nonsense, but why racialism? Why nationalism?

[Commissar Rykov]

@ Coach

It's good that you got past that Stormfront nonsense, but why racialism? Why nationalism?
He didn't get past his Stormfront behavior he still embraces it he just got banned because he was too far left for Stormfront. Cry me some tears little fascist man. This is a wonderful hive of scum and racialist dipshits we have discovered but I could have done without finding a refuge for "Left-Wing" Stormfronters.

[Rainsborough]

Interesting thread. Been away for a while so missed this one. Had a quick look and noticed the invitations to go and discuss, invitations it would seem that no one is bothering with.

I'm not sure that banning Coach Trotsky was a good move, smacks of McCarthyism or 17th Century with hunting, but if that was the informed decision of the administration, so be it.

Just one question though, will all those members who thanked Coach Trotsky for his various posts (including myself) now be banned as possible fascists? :confused:

[Commissar Rykov]

Interesting thread. Been away for a while so missed this one. Had a quick look and noticed the invitations to go and discuss, invitations it would seem that no one is bothering with.

I'm not sure that banning Coach Trotsky was a good move, smacks of McCarthyism or 17th Century with hunting, but if that was the informed decision of the administration, so be it.

Just one question though, will all those members who thanked Coach Trotsky for his various posts (including myself) now be banned as possible fascists? :confused:
A few members have already gone over there only to be berated as trolls while their little Admin throws a fit and demands that he is right with out of context quotes...yet again. The Admin of Socialist Phalanx is a silly fellow that demands all "faux-leftists" don't do real work...I wonder what amazing contributions to the Proletariat he makes I am guessing nothing except ranting on a message board like a tosser. I do enjoy their deflections of racialism by saying they have a small handful of members who claim to not be racialist while they have discussions about Jews controlling finance, certain races and their "natural homosexual" tendencies amongst other shit I have seen regurgitated on Scumfront a thousand other times.

[Rainsborough]

A few members have already gone over there only to be berated as trolls while their little Admin throws a fit and demands that he is right with out of context quotes...yet again. The Admin of Socialist Phalanx is a silly fellow that demands all "faux-leftists" don't do real work...I wonder what amazing contributions to the Proletariat he makes I am guessing nothing except ranting on a message board like a tosser. I do enjoy their deflections of racialism by saying they have a small handful of members who claim to not be racialist while they have discussions about Jews controlling finance, certain races and their "natural homosexual" tendencies amongst other shit I have seen regurgitated on Scumfront a thousand other times.

Thanks. They seem to have a particular love for you comrade in fact you are mentioned in the fondest terms.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I'm surprised no one has brought up what cosmopolitanism since so many users are wondering. It's the belief that all humans belong to a single community based on a shared morality. Cosmopolitanism can be traced back to a quote from Socrates "I am not an Athenian or a Greek, but a citizen of the world." This is opposed to nationalism obviously.

If Socrates really said that then that may well be the wisest thing he ever said. We all share the same planet and ultimately the same reality.

[The Stalinator]

If Socrates really said that then that may well be the wisest thing he ever said. We all share the same planet and ultimately the same reality.

If that's what cosmopolitanism is, then shit, I'm very proud to call myself a cosmopolitan socialist.